Tangowhisky
Posts: 667
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:35 pm



Quoting Sebring (Reply 41):
Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 35):
Has anyone noted that the last three CEOs of Air Canada have been Americans?

You forgot Lamar Durrett, CEO for three years immediately prior to Milton.

Hey, thanks for reminding me. I forgot about Lamar. Wow, 4 CEOs in a row, all Americans. But I must say that the AC product service tops any US carrier. Now, why can't American CEO's of US airlines do the same in US?




Quoting Manu (Reply 47):
Fly on CX from YVR to HKG and the cabin crew might have the ability to speak 7-8 languages.

It is not the same thing. There are over 1.5 billion people in Asia speaking Mandarin, therefore one better learn the language to capture the traffic. In Quebec however, there are 2-3 million that don't speak any English. So the incentive to offer French service is not the same, especially these days when internet booking are based on price not service. I agree with you however that learning more languages gives you an edge, and French is a very useful language to conduct business even outside of France and Quebec (Algeria, Morocco, West Africa, Vietnam, etc.).
Only the paranoid survive
 
N1120A
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:43 pm



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 39):

The whole airport is in Mississauga.

Wasn't the majority of it built in the former municipality of Malton, which is now part of Toronto?

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 39):
Payroll and other business taxes are higher in Quebec than Ontario.

As mentioned earlier, while PQ has high personal taxes, corporate taxes are very low.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:51 pm



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 49):
But it is apparently common practice for the federal government to pay municipalities in lieu of taxes.

True, but those are voluntary payments, either under the federal Payment in Lieu of Taxes Act, or a grant under the Federal Grants Act (I think that is the name).

Mississauga was trying to be very clever, and argue that the provincial Building Code applied to the construction of the new terminal - which, as it happened, would entitle the City to collect development fees (levied under authority of that statute...). The court shot that down and concluded that the City could not force the federal govenment to pay. The court did in fact note that the City was entitled to seek a grant to offset the cost, and that the federal government had a history of making payments... but it emphasized that such payments are voluntary.

The very strong weight of the law (and the constitution) was against Mississauga from the start. The judges involved (at first instance and at the Court of Appeal) have stellar reputations as strong legal thinkers, and the decision is no doubt correctly decided. IMHO*.

I'll stop now and get back to work.

Cheers.

*I am no judge, but I am a lawyer who specializes in real estate litigation who has dealt with this issue repeatedly (and am vary familiar with the case).
 
beechnut
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:14 pm



Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 35):
In my experience it has been the opposite. In fact a recent Quebec media report said that % of Anglos speaking French is now higher than % of Francos speaking English.

This may be true in Quebec, and it is in fact a product of Law 101 (Quebec's language law): while Francophones had their learning of English curtailed, Anglophones were improving their French. So one inadvertent effect of Law 101 was to reduce, not increase, economic opportunities for Francophones. It is now also pretty much an economic necessity for an Anglophone to be able to work in French in Quebec. However outside of Quebec, with the possible exception of New Brunswick, very few Anglophones can carry on a meaningful conversation in French. In some cases my Korean would be better, and my Korean is limited to "hello", "thank you" and "beer"...

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 40):
You certainly haven't met any of the tens of thousand Quebecers that don't speak any English.

This is also true. The great myth of "they refused to serve me in English" is often "they were not ABLE to serve me in English". I used to be in a hire/fire position for 18 years and I was amazed at the lack of English skills coming out of Francophone colleges and universities in Quebec. Some would indeed have trouble saying "bonjour", "merci" and "bière" in English.

As for aviation, for a Canadian airline to try to serve Quebec without adequate services in French my advice to them would be "you do so at your economic peril".

As it happens, I am fluent in both (French mother, English father), and currently live in Quebec (in fact have lived here for 44 of my 49 years). I also, when I fly my plane, do ATC and radio calls in French. Because otherwise, I may not be understood.

Beech
 
threepoint
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:15 pm



Quoting Sebring (Reply 46):
French speakers still account for about 30% of Canada's population,

I think you may have to revise that number significantly downward. At last census, natural francophones numbered about 6.7 million. Their numbers are currently on a downward trend due to declining birth rates, etc. Canada's population is better than 33 million today http://www.statcan.ca/english/edu/clock/population.htm. That suggests about 20% French speakers, even if the French-only population has not lost a soul..

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 43):
Actually, less than 5% speak only English. In fact, there are more people in the Quebec CMA who speak a language other than English or French,

True. But I didn't state the non-francophones spoke only English. There are heaps who emigrate speaking a third language. Most of those immigrants default to learning English. Your stats in reply #36 suggest a small percentage of any market, but I seem to recall a certain Mr. Parizeau claiming they were sufficient in number to cost him a rather important referendum.

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 43):
I imagine the vast majority wouldn't be endeared to an airline which doesn't provide complete French service on board.

I suppose we could all speculate on what others may or may not think, but the fact remains: WS will expand in the Quebec market. They will assign French staff to those flights to and from PQ. They will constantly increase their numbers of multilingual cabin crew so that they can provide better service to almost every domestic passenger. And they will do all this voluntarily.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 50):
Quoting Sebring ??? (Reply 41) Hey, thanks for reminding me.

You're welcome.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
N43W79
Topic Author
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:56 pm

With Air Canada's new IFE system, it would great to be able to select the safety briefing language. Half the flight from YYZ-YUL is spent listening to the cabin crew repeat everything the pilot has to say... not much time to use the PTVs!
 
threepoint
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:12 pm

I agree with you N43W79, those incessant updates in many languages can be more than annoying. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to ensure every passenger actually selects the safety briefing as required by Transport Canada, unless the IFE won't allow access to the main menu until it has run through one complete briefing.
But AC for example, is having enough trouble just getting the damn things to work as intended and would surely be loathe to introduce a new feature. WS doesn't have the same type of IFE, it's just TV, basically.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:08 pm



Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 35):
but the interesting thing is that the airline is doing quite with Americans running it from Montreal, while the carriers main hub is in YYZ.

And nobody has mentioned that the head office of AC Jazz, their regional affiliate, is Halifax, which is hardly their major hub.
 
YULYMX
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:26 pm

Any reason Air Canada main hub isn't YUL?  Smile
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:59 pm



Quoting YULYMX (Reply 58):
ny reason Air Canada main hub isn't YUL? Smile

In most cases, hubs evolved due to the size of the population of the host city (CDG, ORD, LHR, etc.). YYZ is more populous than YUL. Second, there is much more Origin/Destination activity out of YYZ since it is a far larger business hub. But I must admit that YUL airport operations and ATC do a much better job than YYZ. Every time there is a small winter fluff or lightening, YYZ shuts down. YUL are much better handling these mother nature inconveniences, but I don't know why.
Only the paranoid survive
 
YULYMX
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:11 am



Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 59):
In most cases, hubs evolved due to the size of the population of the host city (CDG, ORD, LHR, etc.). YYZ is more populous than YUL. Second, there is much more Origin/Destination activity out of YYZ since it is a far larger business hub. But I must admit that YUL airport operations and ATC do a much better job than YYZ. Every time there is a small winter fluff or lightening, YYZ shuts down. YUL are much better handling these mother nature inconveniences, but I don't know why.

In the Last 30yrs, toronto doesn't have the snow it use to have, Montréal airport is never closed because of snow Air Canada Cancel a few flight because the planes are not full on the YUL-YYZ-YOW triangle... But International Carrier get in and out with no problems, Also Yul doesn't have the Traffic that YYZ get and more runways to clean but they should be well equiped to deal with it by the rate they charge  Smile

I would say that in north america: YUL, YQB, MSP, YEG, YWG, BOS, EWR, JFK, ORD should be able to handle a snow storm... but when a storm hit the east coast...YUL and ex YMX are airport of choice for diversion...
 
avt007
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:30 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 57):
And nobody has mentioned that the head office of AC Jazz, their regional affiliate, is Halifax, which is hardly their major hub.

On paper, Head Office is Halifax, but in reality, the majority of operations, aircraft, office staff, and executives are in Toronto.
 
FLYACYYZ
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AC//Au Revoir A340-500's?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:47 am



Quoting N43W79 (Reply 55):
With Air Canada's new IFE system, it would great to be able to select the safety briefing language

The company is federally mandated to provide service in English and French, besides which it is good customer service. Would you be equally annoyed on a LH flight where all announcements are in German & English, or on Mexicana where all announcements are in Spanish & English? As far as missing valuable PTV time on a YYZ-YUL flight, you'd be lucky to get in an entire episode of "I Love Lucy".
 boggled 

In addition, I know of very few airlines which make In-Flight entertainment available on a 1 hour flight.

Do you have any idea how many complaints are forwarded and investigated by disgruntled customers as a result of every announcment not being translated verbatim between English and French? There is no political statement being made or intended here -- it's just the way it is.
Above and Beyond
 
sebring
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:14 am



Quoting YULYMX (Reply 58):
cal time (4 hours 46 minutes 55 secs ago) and read 176 times:

Any reason Air Canada main hub isn't YUL?  

Because 35% of the total population of Canada lives in southern Ontario, and most of the rest lives west of Toronto, hence closer to YYZ than YUL? But that's just a wild guess.
 
evolv
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:47 am



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 37):
What is this based on? This isn't the first time I've heard the speculation, but I have a hard time accepting that Canadian banks would want to move to Calgary. What are the benefits?

thats where there business/deals will be.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:51 pm



Quoting Evolv (Reply 64):

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 37):
What is this based on? This isn't the first time I've heard the speculation, but I have a hard time accepting that Canadian banks would want to move to Calgary. What are the benefits?

thats where there business/deals will be.

Actually the key incentive is that Alberta like Quebec have the lowest corporate tax rates in Canada. So they can easily set up their address there but keep the staff in Toronto. Keep in mind that Toronto is the financial capital of Canada and this where corporate finance activities (like underwriting new debt, issue IPOs, etc.) take place. So they can keep their staff in YYZ but setup a shell office in YYC to gain from the corporate tax benefits.
Only the paranoid survive
 
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auroralives
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:42 pm



Quoting YULYMX (Reply 60):
Montréal airport is never closed because of snow

Well... not quite true.

A couple of years ago, my wife was flying FRA-YUL-YOW with our small child. She HATES the hassle of customs and transferring planes in YUL at the best of times. Arriving in YUL there was an hour of circling (I was watching on FlightAware) due to heavy snow, before finally setting down.

After they landed, she told me the pilot announced, "Good new is... we're finally on the ground... Bad news is we're not at Dorval, but Mirabel".

You don't want to know how the rest of her day went  grumpy 
 
YULYMX
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:21 pm



Quoting AuroraLives (Reply 66):


Quoting YULYMX (Reply 60):
Montréal airport is never closed because of snow

Well... not quite true.

A couple of years ago, my wife was flying FRA-YUL-YOW with our small child. She HATES the hassle of customs and transferring planes in YUL at the best of times. Arriving in YUL there was an hour of circling (I was watching on FlightAware) due to heavy snow, before finally setting down.

After they landed, she told me the pilot announced, "Good new is... we're finally on the ground... Bad news is we're not at Dorval, but Mirabel".

Very suprised by that must have been low on fuel after turning around
 
beechnut
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:54 pm



Quoting AuroraLives (Reply 66):
After they landed, she told me the pilot announced, "Good new is... we're finally on the ground... Bad news is we're not at Dorval, but Mirabel".

I had that happen to me, but due to curfew (late arrival due to late departure due to aircraft technical). Real PITA.

I wonder though, now that Mirabel is cargo-only, do they still even have the ability to accomodate a pax diversion? Or would they high-tail it to YOW or YQB instead?

Beech
 
N1120A
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:38 pm



Quoting BeechNut (Reply 53):
I also, when I fly my plane, do ATC and radio calls in French.

Doesn't that violate international standard phraseology rules?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
beechnut
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:01 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
Doesn't that violate international standard phraseology rules?

No. French is an ICAO language. The ICAO rules state that ATC and aeronautical radio communications can be in the local language, *or* English.

Many countries outside of the USA routinely use a non-English language for ATC, including France.

Beechnut
 
threepoint
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:01 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
Doesn't that violate international standard phraseology rules?

What? No.
When flying in Quebec, you may talk French to francophone controllers. Or German to controllers in FRA, or Japanese to the NRT controllers. The international (or default) language in aviation is English, but there are no rules that I've encountered that mandate English be spoken by pilots flying in their home country talking to their local ATC.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:27 pm

Just a few factoids;

1) A head office doesn't mean that's where the most staff is.
2) Income tax payments are allocated to the province where the sales/salaries originate, regardless of where the head office is.
3) In Ontario there is a 7% provincial sales tax on goods that is absorped by companies while the Quebec provincial sales tax is zero for corporations since it is refundable and passed on as a value added tax to consumers.
4) Every study I've seen indicates that the cost of operating a head office is lower in Montreal than Toronto.
5) A significant number of the staff at AC headquarters and Dorval maintenance work in English and can read English manuals since it is their native tongue.
6) There is no reason that I can think of why AC would move to Calgary and expose itself to costly labour and housing shortages .

Finally, the assumption that AC is unhappy with the location of their head office is presumptuous at best.
 
SB
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:18 am



Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 72):
When flying in Quebec, you may talk French to francophone controllers. Or German to controllers in FRA, or Japanese to the NRT controllers. The international (or default) language in aviation is English, but there are no rules that I've encountered that mandate English be spoken by pilots flying in their home country talking to their local ATC.

Not as simple I'm afraid.. Some countries (Germany for example) mandate English only for IFR traffic, while VFR is multilingual. These are usually countries where English is very common, and/or the local language is not an ICAO language.

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 68):
I wonder though, now that Mirabel is cargo-only, do they still even have the ability to accomodate a pax diversion? Or would they high-tail it to YOW or YQB instead?

YMX is now closed to passenger aircraft, except for emergencies of course. The terminal has been switched off, 11/29 has been decommissioned, the busses are gone and only 2 or 3 very old stair-trucks (?) remain.
Diversions usually go to YOW, YQB and even YYZ. Some US flights go to PLB.

S.
"Confirm leave the hold and maintain 320kts?!"
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:30 am



Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 72):
) Income tax payments are allocated to the province where the sales/salaries originate, regardless of where the head office is.

This is true for employees. As for the corporation, its provincial (corporate) taxes are paid and based on the province in which the corporation is registered, but not necessarily where the head office is located. But the two not being in the same province is unusual.
Only the paranoid survive
 
evolv
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:18 am



Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 65):
Actually the key incentive is that Alberta like Quebec have the lowest corporate tax rates in Canada. So they can easily set up their address there but keep the staff in Toronto. Keep in mind that Toronto is the financial capital of Canada and this where corporate finance activities (like underwriting new debt, issue IPOs, etc.) take place. So they can keep their staff in YYZ but setup a shell office in YYC to gain from the corporate tax benefits.

Actually no. All energy deals in Canada occur in Calgary with Calgary staff. This is where the bulk of financing will be taking place in the next decades. Companies will obviously visit TO to raise money on raod shows and such but the majority of the work happens in Calgary. You need a certain experience level to be able to execute energy deals efficiently. you need people with an energy speciality. I-bankers, lawyers, etc need to be experienced in executing energy deals.

Also the scope of some of the financings that will be taking place for oilsand development will be to large for the Canadian market to handle. The will have to go international more and more.
 
YULYMX
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:48 am



Quoting BeechNut (Reply 68):

guess so... Montreal down town is still a few miles away, only need a few custom agents  Smile
 
zvezda
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:16 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Burdened? Get over this concept.

Every government-imposed rule is a burden, no matter how well-intentioned or necessary it might be.
 
N1120A
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:14 am



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 77):

Every government-imposed rule is a burden, no matter how well-intentioned or necessary it might be.

Ah yes, the anti-government tact again. Governments exist to regulate certain things to avoid the tragedy of the commons and other forms of anarchy.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
zvezda
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:50 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 78):
Governments exist to regulate certain things to avoid the tragedy of the commons and other forms of anarchy.

Yes, exactly. That is good government. Do you believe language laws and laws dictating in which city a company can have its headquarters prevent either a tragedy of the commons or anarchy?
 
trvyyz
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:18 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 51):
Wasn't the majority of it built in the former municipality of Malton, which is now part of Toronto?

Malton is a part of Mississauga. Here is the map of mississauga.
http://infoex.housemaster.net/OfficesWEB/000170/images/map.jpg As you can see most if not all is in Mississauga. Technically there could be some airport property going into Toronto area, but the runways, Terminals and hangers inside Mississauga. We have Peel region Police in and around the airport and not Toronto's because it is in Peel's jurisdiction. I think that should explain.

[Edited 2007-12-04 05:25:30]
 
cayman
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:40 pm



Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 80):
We have Peel region Police in and around the airport and not Toronto's because it is in Peel's jurisdiction. I think that should explain.

Quite correct, although if memory serves Peel Region Police are there because they happened to bid on providing police services to airport and were awarded contract, it is a paid contract role for them as it does not fall under their tasks as Peel police. It is a federal responsibility, formerly the RCMP were the police force on site but I think Peel Region came up with a more economic bid some years ago.

In theory I think Toronto Police Department could also be there if they bid on it and were awarded contract to do it, maybe they will next time around thoigh they seem to have plenty on their plate.

I do not know how long Peel are under contract with GTAA.
 
trvyyz
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:12 pm



Quoting CayMan (Reply 81):

Didn't know the deatils, thanks. Does it mean that theoretically Halton or Durham Police can also bid for the contract?
 
beechnut
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:28 pm



Quoting SB (Reply 73):
Not as simple I'm afraid.. Some countries (Germany for example) mandate English only for IFR traffic, while VFR is multilingual. These are usually countries where English is very common, and/or the local language is not an ICAO language.

There is, of course, considerable latitude allowed to countries to set their own regulations as long as ICAO rules are met. Germany for example, is English-only IFR. Canada allows French for IFR and VFR traffic in the parts of Canada controlled by Montreal Center, and in Quebec Terminal Control Units and airport ATC units (towers), as well as in Ottawa.

Beech
 
jamincan
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:00 pm

I guess I was just getting at the legal v. moral justification for payment. I'll defer to your legal knowledge; however, history compels the federal government to pay

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 82):
Didn't know the deatils, thanks. Does it mean that theoretically Halton or Durham Police can also bid for the contract?

As I understand it, anyone can bid for the job.
 
jamincan
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:39 pm

^ I have no idea what the first part of that post was about...
 
ORDagent
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:11 pm



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 38):
Those that don't parlez have a little button they can press to air a pre-recorded announcement

Do they have a pre recorded announcement telling them "Don't use that exit, there is a fire! Follow me to the rear door". Or perhaps any other emergency situataion that can't be "canned"?
 
cayman
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:16 pm



Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 82):
Didn't know the deatils, thanks. Does it mean that theoretically Halton or Durham Police can also bid for the contract?

I can't say that I have specific knowledge of the contract but I am fairly confident that any police department, any peace officers, could bid on it. Of course few departments have the requisite personnel and resources for such a task, for example you often see the Peel tactical members in the airport. Halton or Durham could bid I think, if they chose to, of course not an ideal location for them.

What would be really interesting is whether the contract operates as a revenue positive or profit making for Peel. I presume they do it at some level to make money or to otherwise offset fixed and operating costs they already have anyway.

Probably RCMP, OPP, Toronto (former Metro) or Peel would be the most likely forces to police the GTAA.
 
Cruiser
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:31 pm



Quoting CayMan (Reply 87):
What would be really interesting is whether the contract operates as a revenue positive or profit making for Peel. I presume they do it at some level to make money or to otherwise offset fixed and operating costs they already have anyway.

One of the Peel officers once commented that all of their cars, uniforms, etc. are owned by the GTAA. PRP doesn't own any of it.

No doubt there would be a short list of which services could bid based on previous experience, other such contracts, and availability of resources.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
N1120A
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:40 pm



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 79):
Do you believe language laws and laws dictating in which city a company can have its headquarters prevent either a tragedy of the commons or anarchy?

There are two official languages in Canada and the laws exist to keep it that way and keep the country from descending into civil war. As far as AC's HQ goes, it was a government owned company and the ACPPA was meant to make sure that AC kept honoring its commitments to various regions.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
robsawatsky
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:07 am

RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:19 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 89):
There are two official languages in Canada and the laws exist to keep it that way and keep the country from descending into civil war. As far as AC's HQ goes, it was a government owned company and the ACPPA was meant to make sure that AC kept honoring its commitments to various regions

As I've stated before. You are quite correct there are two official languages in Canada but the application of that fact at the Federal and Provincial levels varies significantly depending upon where you are and what service or product your are using/purchasing. This difference hasn't yet lead to civil war. Whether the Official Languages Act and other language laws increase or reduce the chances of civil war is more of a political question than a sociological one but I doubt that the language services of AC from the passenger perspective would vary with or without that particular law. AC offers services in many languages based totally on customer demand. However, the Official Language Act requires much more than just offering customer service in English and French; there are myriad requirements that definitely cost AC more than any other Canadian airline.

Likewise, the law requiring AC's headquarters in Montreal is purely political. AC has no commitments to honor in any region of the country, it is the political masters' commitments that are the problem. Nevertheless, the practical aspects of moving headquarters probably outweigh any legal aspect at the present.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:13 pm



Quoting ORDagent (Reply 86):
Do they have a pre recorded announcement telling them "Don't use that exit, there is a fire! Follow me to the rear door". Or perhaps any other emergency situataion that can't be "canned"?

Oh yeah, I'm sure they do. In approximately 270 dialects in AC's case.

Look, the intent of having bilingual (in Canada's case, English & French) cabin staff is to provide a basic level of service and safety to the majority of passengers. AC, like all major carriers, attempts to have onboard staff that speak the major language of a given flight's origin or destination, but that is of course hampered by various practical reasons such as which staff bid which routes due to seniority, location, preference, etc.

In an emergency, can we reasonably expect an airline to provide instructions in the mother tongues of every passenger on board? How would they know who speaks what? The direction, tone and intent given by trained cabin crew in your hypothetical emergency should be immediately obvious to all but deaf, blind and/or mute passengers. Common sense and the innate survival instincts of passengers who don't understand the wording of commands should serve them adequately as well.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
ayqzbr
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:40 pm

RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:43 pm



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 91):
Look, the intent of having bilingual (in Canada's case, English & French) cabin staff is to provide a basic level of service and safety to the majority of passengers.

The issue here continues to be that only AC is required by law to have "bilingual cabin staff" and this is enforced with inspectors. As I have stated previously on this forum, why not the same requirements for all Canadian carriers.

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 90):
there are myriad requirements that definitely cost AC more than any other Canadian airline.

Well said.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3046
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RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:14 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Burdened? Get over this concept. French and English are equally the official languages of Canada.

Horse [email protected]*. Only in the minds of the minority of Quebecers who want to separate from Canada. The majority of people in Canada do not use French in their day to day lives and most of us don't even speak French. Actually the people of Quebec don't speak French, they speak Quebecois.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:10 am



Quoting Ayqzbr (Reply 92):
The issue here continues to be that only AC is required by law to have "bilingual cabin staff" and this is enforced with inspectors. As I have stated previously on this forum, why not the same requirements for all Canadian carriers.

Agree. The rule is draconian and makes no sense. You won't hear a contrary argument from me on your suggestion.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:22 am



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 94):
Quoting Ayqzbr (Reply 92):
The issue here continues to be that only AC is required by law to have "bilingual cabin staff" and this is enforced with inspectors. As I have stated previously on this forum, why not the same requirements for all Canadian carriers.

Agree. The rule is draconian and makes no sense. You won't hear a contrary argument from me on your suggestion.

Same applies to the federal legislation that requires AC to maintain their head office in YUL and prevents them from closing their maintenance base in YWG..
 
sebring
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:29 am

I can't believe this thread is still going. Nothing is going to change. Nobody is lobbying for any change, not even Karl-Heinz Schreiber
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 96):
Nothing is going to change. Nobody is lobbying for any change,

And nobody here suggested change. The OP simply asked why the current arrangement is what it is. It then meandered around the various legislation, the jurisdiction in which YYZ lies and a tangential discussion on bilingualism, but none of us implied altering the status quo.

[Edited 2007-12-04 21:50:03]
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
heavy747
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:04 pm

RE: Shouldn't ACs Headquarters Be At YYZ?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:36 pm

My pesonal opinion, NO.. AC headquarters should stay where it is!
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