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Cubsrule
Topic Author
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ZK STL Update

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:36 pm

It's been almost a month since ZK ramped up STL service. Here's what they're flying:

BRL 2x daily (1x on Saturdays) (They bridge an aircraft between STL and MCI at BRL)
DEC 2x daily
TBN 2x daily (1x on Saturdays)
MWA 2x daily
UIN 2x daily

They use 2 aircraft for this operation and are using gates D8 and D10, which are ground level gates. Their ticket counter is in the main terminal (next to UA IIRC).

I'm wondering about the future... any plans to pick up more ex-3C cites, like IRK (which they used to bridge an aircraft into MDW on an MCI-IRK-UIN-MDW routing) or ALO? Most of the former 3C cities to the east (CGI, PAH, MKL) have someone else providing the EAS service now (GQ or XJ).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
highliner2
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RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:00 am

Without a codeshare with AA, MWA-STL is a waste of money.

I love how they run Regions out of town on a rail, than bring in a carrier that refuses to meet the codeshare requirements of the dominent carrier at STL.

Now we have fewer frequencies, higher fares (as a result of having to buy seperate fares if traveling beyond STL), and useless service. Thanks Durbin for "fixing" air service in Southern Illinois.
Go Cubs!
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:10 am

is ZK still in talks with AA for codeshare service? I just don't see how this will work without the code share to provide seemless travel. Semms like a hassle to have to buy one ticket, then buy another out of STL on another airline. I was really hoping to see the B1900 in and AA livery.
 
pilotpip
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RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:04 am

Regions ran themselves out of town when they were pencil whipping MX and flat out lying about inspections.
DMI
 
vw
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RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:09 am

CIDflyer:
Even if Great Lakes does sure up a codeshare agreement with AA, you will never ever see a GLA 1900 in AA colors  Sad
I would also like to see it,but it just wont happen. The reason why is because they route airplanes through their entire network. Mainly to get the birds back into the nest in Cheyenne for maintenance. I also miss seeing them during their better years in UAX colors at their old base in Spencer. By the way the Big Sky 1900's look great as Delta Connect.
Also if you are into GLA take a look at www.readytocopy.com

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PC12Fan
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RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:52 pm



Quoting Highliner2 (Reply 1):
I love how they run Regions out of town on a rail, than bring in a carrier that refuses to meet the codeshare requirements of the dominent carrier at STL.



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3):
Regions ran themselves out of town when they were pencil whipping MX and flat out lying about inspections.

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Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
access-air
Posts: 1577
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RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:26 pm



Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 2):
is ZK still in talks with AA for codeshare service? I just don't see how this will work without the code share to provide seemless travel. Semms like a hassle to have to buy one ticket, then buy another out of STL on another airline. I was really hoping to see the B1900 in and AA livery.

What ever happend to Joint fares and thru ticketing???? If we didnt have to worry about all this e-ticketing compatability crap between airlines and we still had the paper tickets and airlines were willing to negotiate joint-thru fares without the regional havig to adopt the major airlines's corporate identinty whilst losing their own, this would work....Thje you wouldnt have to buy two tickets....but then again CIDFlyer, if you wnt to a travel agent they can put all the flights onto the same ticket....it may default to a paper ticket but hey, then you wont have to ticket separately.....Oh wait, travel agents charge a fee....for get that for the extra hassle of making to separate reservations......

How soon these bean counters at the big airlines forget the basic things that they built their companies on....Someone has to be flexible, why shoulkd it always be the commuter partner that has to turn over almost their entire operational control? If its so imporatnat for AA to have their logo and their name in those small towns, let them buy their own 19 seat aircraft and do it themselves.....
Oh wait, that wouldnt be good for their reputation, flying 19 seat prop planes.....too much stigma with that..... Awwww my heart bleeds for them.....NOT!!!!!! Get over it and just sign an agreement already so these cities can get the quality air service that they need....If AA doesnt want to invest anything in the STL hub then they should just get the hell out and let someone come in that will put a decent amount of flights in and serve the surrounding comminities as they should be....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
Cubsrule
Topic Author
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RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:56 pm



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 6):
Oh wait, that wouldnt be good for their reputation, flying 19 seat prop planes.....too much stigma with that..... Awwww my heart bleeds for them.....NOT!!!!!! Get over it and just sign an agreement already so these cities can get the quality air service that they need....

Why should they? AA does fine at STL without the 19-seat routes. I suspect ZK has nice fat government contracts for MWA (federal prison) and TBN (Army), and if they can make money on the routes without a codeshare and AA can make money without ZK, where's the incentive?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
access-air
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:21 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
Why should they? AA does fine at STL without the 19-seat routes.

Hey Cubs, Well thats not the point, the cities that are served by the 19 seat planes are the losers......When a behemoth like AA comes in and takes over the TWA operation and litterally pillages the entire company and leaves just scraps, it's hardly the fault of the smaller communities surrounding STL....
The prevailing attitude is that if a commuter airline serves a community, then that commuter must be a code share....Somtimes that is not possible as with AA because of their over the top conditions that they place on a commuter to beasically become a slave to them.....

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
I suspect ZK has nice fat government contracts for MWA (federal prison) and TBN (Army),

And so what if they do, at least they have guaranteed passengers and the service wont disappear because of low ridership. As long as ZK has thru bag agreements with AA or any other carrier at STL then that is a good thing. You ar blaming the Commuter and the Cities.....You need to point the finger at the Major airline (AA) that is imposing too many tight restrictions for ZK to properly serve these cities....

I dont like to spar with people in here that live in large hub cities such as STL or ORD because they have little understanding of the complexities of small community needs in terms of air service into those hubs. They just have this attitude that we can all just drive...Well its just a little more complicated than putting us country bumpkins into the cars...

Quoting Highliner2 (Reply 1):
Without a codeshare with AA, MWA-STL is a waste of money.

Why?!?!? As long as ZK has a thru bag agreement with AA what is the problem????? If you wnat to walk into the airport with a single ticket then go to your travel agent and have them issue the ZK and AA space on the same ticket... That is if you are not so thrifty minded that you absolutely must but your tickets online to save a ticketing fee....

Here's a little a bit of what it says in our computer.......regarding agreements with ZK.......

AIRLINE AGREEMENT RECORD FOR: ZK

NAME: GREAT LAKES AIRLINES ACCT CODE: 846

CREDIT CARD ACCEPTANCE:

AX BA CA DS MC TP VI

AGREEMENTS WITH:

AA BA BW CO DL F9 KC KE KX LH MX NH NW
NZ OK QF TG UA WF ZK

To me it looks like they have ticketing and bag agreements with AA and CO and DL and F9 and UA and NW....So what the big problem!?!?!?!!?

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1849
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:23 pm

no intet

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 8):
To me it looks like they have ticketing and bag agreements with AA and CO and DL and F9 and UA and NW....So what the big problem!?!?!?!!?

No interline E tickets at this time..so that inhibits certain sales, especially close-in to departure date and many dont want to hassle with paper tickets , so GL needs to get on the stick to upgrade their GDS capabilities, then things can get a little better for these communities!
 
highliner2
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:26 pm

RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:54 pm

Yes, but the fare difference is substantial. Thru baggage and ticketing is fine, but it's far more expensive buying two fares on seperate carriers versus a connecting fare.
Go Cubs!
 
Cubsrule
Topic Author
Posts: 14628
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: ZK STL Update

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:00 am



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 8):
I dont like to spar with people in here that live in large hub cities such as STL or ORD because they have little understanding of the complexities of small community needs in terms of air service into those hubs. They just have this attitude that we can all just drive...Well its just a little more complicated than putting us country bumpkins into the cars...

Can we please cut down on the animosity? I live in St. L, but I'm not speaking as a city boy talking down the the country bumpkins...

All I was doing was pointing out the economic reality of it: there's no reason for AA to codeshare with ZK because they operate a much smaller hub at STL than did TW. Now, you can say that this is bad for small communities, but I'm not so sure. AA* does fly to a fair number of smaller destinations from STL, and those cities that now have EAS contracts to other cities (CVG or MEM) seem to benefit from the increased connection possibilities there.

From ZK's perspective, there is money to be made flying these routes, but with through-ticketing, there isn't so much of a need for a codeshare. Again, I'm just wondering where the incentive to codeshare is, not trying to demean folks in smaller towns.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 8):
When a behemoth like AA comes in and takes over the TWA operation and litterally pillages the entire company and leaves just scraps, it's hardly the fault of the smaller communities surrounding STL....

Would you rather STL not have a hub at all? TW wasn't going to survive...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
access-air
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: ZK STL Update

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:10 am



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
From ZK's perspective, there is money to be made flying these routes, but with through-ticketing, there isn't so much of a need for a codeshare. Again, I'm just wondering where the incentive to codeshare is, not trying to demean folks in smaller towns.

Okay Cubs....Read my Lips................NO CODESHARE..... I am talking about thru ticketing and baggage agreements NOT Codesahares....This terminology pre-dates( Except Allegheny Commuter) these nasty fraudulant code share agreements which didnt start to fester like cancer until 1985....... I am referring back to the time when EVERY commuter airline was its OWN entity.....Where if it was Britt the plane said Britt. If it was Air Illinois it said Air Illinois...If it was Air Wisconsin the plane said Air Wisconsin and they all had thweir own airline codes and all had Joint fares with ALL the carriers....None of the crap we have today......No lording over the day to day operations of a commuter by the big major airline....
I think in some twisted way we agree, I just think you are not grasping what I am saying....I think I am looking at it from a different decade perspective than you are....Prior to the wave of Dual-designators or Codes Shares....1984 or earlier....

I think that when ZK gets the right amount of planes to properly serve these cities: MWA DEC TBN BRL UIN, etc... they need to work on improving the flight times so they actually connect to the flights out of STL....Without good flight times it like having two hands with no fingers...You cant get much done......
The Regions Air schedules were much better and its shame that they crapped their maintenance, for if they hadnt, then we probably wouldnt have this problem, or even be discussing this mess.......
Do you now understand where I am coming from? Im getting pretty tired of trying to re-explain it.... Sad


Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: ZK STL Update

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:21 am

Thought I'd take a look at this thread thinking it was something about New Zealand aviation (ZK is NZL registered a/c) but find out its an airline also!
Just to clarify, I am not a pilot for ZK airlines but rather in the New Zealand Aviation scene.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Cubsrule
Topic Author
Posts: 14628
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: ZK STL Update

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:33 pm



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 12):
Okay Cubs....Read my Lips................NO CODESHARE..... I am talking about thru ticketing and baggage agreements NOT Codesahares....

My arguments are exactly the same for codeshares and thru ticketing... thru baggage, obviously, is already in place. I don't understand what your objection to what AA or ZK is doing is.

...and why are you being so rude to me?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
access-air
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: ZK STL Update

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:42 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
...and why are you being so rude to me?

Im not...And I dont object to what ZK and AA are doing.....I am saying that if ZK cannot wear the colours of AA like AA seems to want, then they at least have the thru ticketing and bag agreements....
I apologise if I am sounding rude...I am trying to let y'all know that as long s ANY commuter airline that is operating independantly like Great lakes or Big Sky or Mesa as Mesa as long as they have those agreements then its a good thing....Its only a bad thing if passengers are flying from Marion to for example ...ANY destination on Southwest Airlines because Southwesr has NO interline agreements with anyone...except maybe ATA.
I ma stating that a code share is NOT required in these cities to be able to utilize the air service...If someone does not want to deal with two tickets ...see a Travel Agent and they can run One complete ticekt with AA and ZK on it.....

Okay, Im done no more.....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
highliner2
Posts: 637
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RE: ZK STL Update

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:02 am

The point I was trying to make refers to the FARE.

Which costs more:

1. A connecting fare via codeshare partners

or
2. A connecting fare that requires the use of two entirely seperate carriers that must be purchased via a travel agent, or 3rd party website

In 19 cases out 20, number 1 is the cheaper option.

It is a good thing that at least ZK and AA have thru ticketing and baggage agreements. But the lack of a codeshare, as the region had with Regions Air, has led to much higher fares (not too mention not being able to acrue AAdvantage) due to the lack of a codeshare agreement which allowed customers to purchase tickets at a reduced price and much more conveniently using the airlines website and avoiding service fees.

There is indeed no extra incentive for ZK to codeshare because it's an EAS route, they get paid either way.
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Cubsrule
Topic Author
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RE: ZK STL Update

Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:58 pm



Quoting Highliner2 (Reply 16):
But the lack of a codeshare, as the region had with Regions Air, has led to much higher fares

The problem is that in addition to EAS, ZK has guaranteed butts in the seats on at least two routes... that means there's no incentive to have fares at a reasonable level.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
access-air
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:14 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
The problem is that in addition to EAS, ZK has guaranteed butts in the seats on at least two routes... that means there's no incentive to have fares at a reasonable level.

Yes, and the other problem is when there is an EAS payment the air carrier in this case doesnt see fit to operate a schedule that is correctly timed to be convenient to connections in STL (in this case) I think that maybe only BRL has a decent schedule....But to really give each city they pop into, they need more than just two flights per day....

It is a shame that RegionsAir is no more as they did a least in most the cities that they served from STL provided a schedule that had some doabel connectability....Maybe when ZK finds some more planes they might rectify this situation.

I also find it very strange that Passenegrs in Cape Girardeau have DL flights to CVG....it just seems kind of strange...but then thats me....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
Cubsrule
Topic Author
Posts: 14628
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RE: ZK STL Update

Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:20 pm



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 18):

Yes, and the other problem is when there is an EAS payment the air carrier in this case doesnt see fit to operate a schedule that is correctly timed to be convenient to connections in STL (in this case) I think that maybe only BRL has a decent schedule....But to really give each city they pop into, they need more than just two flights per day....

I think the problem is lack of aircraft, as you said. With 2 planes, you can only RON in 2 cities (which is probably the best time to have low-frequency flights). Still, with reasonably good frequency on most routes (8x LAX, 11x ORD, 3x BOS, 6x LGA, etc.), at least there aren't many big cities that ZK customers are completely shut out of.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 18):
I also find it very strange that Passenegrs in Cape Girardeau have DL flights to CVG....it just seems kind of strange...but then thats me....

Well, there's more of a local market to Cincinnati from Cape than to St. Louis, as CGI-STL is actually a relatively pleasant and easy drive up 55. Even 3-4 local passengers is a lot in a 19 seat plane.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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