Super80DFW
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Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:09 pm

Okay, American Connection's little hub is there, why can't AA use a 762 to make this route? It would seem the right size for loads and it definitely has the range. I doubt the 757/winglets could do it, so the 762 seems to be the best bet.
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northstardc4m
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:13 pm

because AA would rather connect people to ORD for the 777 to take to LHR...

The Ex-TWA service to LGW was dropped along with most of the TWA network out of STL.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
sw733
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:16 pm

I had a friend who I booked on a STL-LGW flight back in the summer of 2003...I think that was the last time it was flown...I don't remember seeing it in 2004.

STL isn't what it used to be, and connecting through ORD or even DFW makes more sense for AA, just like my Canadian friend above said.
 
quickmover
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:17 pm

TWA flew 767-200s, 300s, and 747s STL-LGW for many years. I believe AA moved the route authority to DFW for another departure down there.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:19 pm

It is very doubtful that AA would use a 3-class 762 on STL-LON if they ever decided to start it again since those planes are really a small niche fleet operating transcons as well as a couple of MIA rotations. The flight would be a 763 if it ever started again, but I don't see that happening in the short term.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:41 pm

Yeah, the simple answer is that TWA doesn't exist anymore, and AA would rather run the LON flights out of ORD and DFW, using STL as only a domestic reliever hub.
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bagoldex
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:04 pm

Besides, how much of a local market can there really between the two cities, a few dozen per day each way? I live in the US and I've never felt compelled to see St. Louis and I'm sure most Europeans would agree.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:06 pm

I wonder if AA might try STL-LON (maybe even LHR) if they get ATI with BA and cut a few frequencies on ORD-LHR... not saying it will happen, but ATI will give AA and BA significantly more operational flexibility than they have now, which might allow AA to take advantage of some opportunities which do not make sense now.

Besides with a reduction in capacity at ORD (which would almost certainly result from ATI), there's no hope for STL-LON.
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r2rho
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:40 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
I live in the US and I've never felt compelled to see St. Louis and I'm sure most Europeans would agree.

We'll, I'm the European that disagrees!  Smile

Although I admit I'm an exception - having lived there, I have my own special ties to that city. A LON-STL service would definitely make my day! But I realize AA won't open a new route just for me  Wink

It's a shame that with the new runway, the free capacity and the ideal geographical situation, STL is so neglected by the airlines...  Sad Great location for a hub, in my opinion.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 6):
I live in the US and I've never felt compelled to see St. Louis and I'm sure most Europeans would agree.

If KL can get Europeans to visit Memphis, certainly AA could get Europeans to visit STL, if it was so inclined.

In the final analysis, though, it's largely irrelevant. Raleigh isn't exactly a vacation hot spot; instead RDU-LGW is a prime example of the value of business contracts. AA DOES carry a decent chunk of the traffic on STL-LHR now (mostly connecting them over ORD), and AA therefore has a pretty good idea of how much high-yielding demand there is on the route. Certainly, it's not enough alone for a flight, but with the right mix of business travelers, connections, and local tourist demand, there's certainly some potential... whether it's enough is anyone's guess.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
sw733
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:02 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
If KL can get Europeans to visit Memphis, certainly AA could get Europeans to visit STL, if it was so inclined.

Except that NW now flies the MEM-AMS route, not KL. Same concept though. I flew next to a guy from HSV-MEM who was Spanish, and connecting in MEM to go onto AMS and eventually MAD...he said "when my office told me I was connecting in Memphis, I asked how quick it was, because I just want to get some BBQ and get the hell out".
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:16 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 10):
Except that NW now flies the MEM-AMS route, not KL. Same concept though. I flew next to a guy from HSV-MEM who was Spanish, and connecting in MEM to go onto AMS and eventually MAD...he said "when my office told me I was connecting in Memphis, I asked how quick it was, because I just want to get some BBQ and get the hell out".

NWA and KLM are the same airline trans-atlantic and KLM does all marketing and selling of the flight in Europe. KLM also does all the handling of NWA flights in Europe. NWA has zero employees in Europe except for on at KLM HDQ, and cargo sales people.
 
rwylie77
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:17 pm

Please start a direct LON-STL service somebody!! My wife is from STL and we live in London, and travel back every 2-3 months with my 18 month old daughter! Transferring through Boston/Chicago/Raleigh is a nightmare and I would definitely pay a premium to be able to fly direct!!!

I also believe there is more traffic than has been said so far in this thread. Going both directions last week for Thanksgiving we checked in next to other people making the same LHR - STL and back trip.
 
sw733
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:22 pm



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 11):
NWA and KLM are the same airline trans-atlantic and KLM does all marketing and selling of the flight in Europe. KLM also does all the handling of NWA flights in Europe. NWA has zero employees in Europe except for on at KLM HDQ, and cargo sales people.

I know, that's why I said it was "the same concept". Sorry for the confusion. It's done with NW metal though, that's why I said NW flew it.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:24 pm



Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
why can't AA use a 762 to make this route

it's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

AA has probably figured out that they can make more money without a STL-LON service than with one.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
LambertMan
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:34 pm



Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 6):
Besides, how much of a local market can there really between the two cities, a few dozen per day each way? I live in the US and I've never felt compelled to see St. Louis and I'm sure most Europeans would agree.

So that means that Dutchmen want to see Portland? Right.

Leisure traffic isn't necessarily what international travel is about anyway. It merely complements what is hopefully going to be a fruitful first class load plus a sizable cargo haul.

When AA ran STL-LGW, there were problems with the aforementioned cargo and first class loads. Coach was strong, but it was mainly filled with connections. There are still enough connections and local traffic today to make it work on American and possibly BA, but AA doesn't give a rats about St. Louis. They have better opportunities elsewhere for the time being. Perhaps Heathrow is a possibility for the distant future....
 
elmothehobo
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:44 pm



Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
Okay, American Connection's little hub is there, why can't AA use a 762 to make this route?

American stopped flying 762s across the Atlantic in 2001 to simplify their operation. They aren't going to start doing it again, especially with the uncompetitive product they currently offer on these aircraft and the complexity it'll add to their operation.

Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
It would seem the right size for loads and it definitely has the range. I doubt the

Sure it can make it to London, but it doesn't have the right premium/Y mix. Too many premium seats.

Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
I doubt the 757/winglets could do it, so the 762 seems to be the best bet.

757 couldn't make it with a decent load. 763 would be the best bet.
 
777STL
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:56 pm



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 15):
They have better opportunities elsewhere for the time being. Perhaps Heathrow is a possibility for the distant future....

I doubt we'll see a coveted -LHR slot. I'd bet on LGW or STN myself. But then again, as much as I'd like to think otherwise, I don't think we'll be seeing any of the three, anytime soon.
PHX based
 
nwa757300
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:11 pm

According to a good source in STL. The route almost happened last year, but state politics got in the way. Malencrot Industries can fill the belly on the flight. AA sends a semi truck to Chicago everday with goods going to London. The city of STL was offering incentives and the tax breaks AA wanted but Kansas City said they would only give incentives and tax breaks if the flight was operated out of MCI. That's what killed the service.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:20 pm

I wouldn't rule out a return of this route, but not before summer 2009.
a.
 
YULYMX
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:28 pm

Could one of there A300-600 have the range for it?
 
AA 737-800
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:35 pm



Quoting NWA757300 (Reply 18):
Kansas City said they would only give incentives and tax breaks if the flight was operated out of MCI. That's what killed the service.

Why would Kansas City give up any money for St. Louis - London service? There aren't even any more flights on AA from MCI to STL, and there are only about 6 daily flights on WN. That service would have no benefit for Kansas City, a town that would love to have a London flight themselves.
Civil engineering isn't about making things perfect...just better.
 
vv701
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:41 pm

Under Bermuda 2 I believe that STL could only be served from either LHR or LGW by an American airline. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe in those days (1979) STL was a TW hub.

With no possibility of a British airline flying the route and STL no longer being a main hub for a major American airline there was most unlikely to be any direct STL-LON flights. Whether or not this could change with Open Skies is, I think, more likely to be down to a British airline (BA, BD or VS) than an American airline.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:41 pm



Quoting YULYMX (Reply 20):
Could one of there A300-600 have the range for it?

A300s fly exclusively in a high-density configuration to the Caribbean and Latin America, mainly from JFK and MIA, but also on select routes from MCO and FLL. They are in a two-class configuration with more seats than AA's 777s.
a.
 
Super80DFW
Topic Author
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:30 am



Quoting NWA757300 (Reply 18):
According to a good source in STL. The route almost happened last year, but state politics got in the way.

That is too bad. You would think that Missouri would want a TATL flight out of STL. It would be the first! If I was the state government, I would be pressuring AA to start it.
EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
LambertMan
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:31 am



Quoting NWA757300 (Reply 18):
According to a good source in STL. The route almost happened last year, but state politics got in the way. Malencrot Industries can fill the belly on the flight. AA sends a semi truck to Chicago everday with goods going to London. The city of STL was offering incentives and the tax breaks AA wanted but Kansas City said they would only give incentives and tax breaks if the flight was operated out of MCI. That's what killed the service.

Interesting. Never heard of Malencrot Industries.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:38 am



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 25):

Interesting. Never heard of Malencrot Industries

I think he means Mallinckrodt... they're out in Hazlewood and make a fairly wide variety of pharmaceuticals and medical imaging agents. 12,000 employees and $1 billion in annual sales is nothing to sneeze at.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
nwa757300
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:53 am

Yeah that's it. Thanks for the correct spelling.  Silly  laughing   silly 
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:58 am



Quoting NWA757300 (Reply 27):
Yeah that's it. Thanks for the correct spelling.

I had to look it up...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
mrstl
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:23 am



Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 24):
That is too bad. You would think that Missouri would want a TATL flight out of STL. It would be the first! If I was the state government, I would be pressuring AA to start it.

You know KC hates STL and vice versa  Wink Actually it was a waiver of fuel taxes and it was vetoed by the governor on the last MO business incentive package. Gov Blunt said he was not going to approve a tax break on fictitious non existent intl flights and MO department of transportation was also against it. I'll try to find a link to the actual info. There are quite a few companies in STL who could help fill the belly to LON- I would not be suprised to see a charter start regular service to at least Gatwick.

A few companies that come to mind are:
Monsanto
Pfizer
Emerson
Solae
Ralston corp
Nestle- Purina
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:25 am



Quoting MrSTL (Reply 29):
There are quite a few companies in STL who could help fill the belly to LON- I would not be suprised to see a charter start regular service to at least Gatwick.

Corporations aren't going to use charters for passengers, nor cargo. St. Louis-London on AA is a plausible scenario, but having it on a charter is laughable.
a.
 
sw733
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:26 am



Quoting MrSTL (Reply 29):

You know KC hates STL and vice versa

Darn right. St. Louis is a horrrrrrrible place  Wink
 
LambertMan
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:31 am



Quoting MrSTL (Reply 29):
There are quite a few companies in STL who could help fill the belly to LON- I would not be suprised to see a charter start regular service to at least Gatwick.

Weird. When TW/AA ran the route the cargo loads were notoriously poor. I think first class was the bigger issue of the two, however. I'm just speculating on which was a bigger problem though, I really don't know.

I think a year-round, daily in peak and 4x weekly in down periods would work. American still has a decent amount of feed flowing thru STL, so its not as if they're relying completely on the area alone. Besides, St. Louis needs it for its ego.  Wink
 
OBSMGR
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:40 am



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 32):
Weird. When TW/AA ran the route the cargo loads were notoriously poor.

When I was in management at TWA, I don't seem to recal that being an issue. It was certainly true of the CDG route, and there were fears about how FRA would do with cargo, but in the case of LGW, it was the cargo that carried the flight for years...
I just Googled your Yahoo :)
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:46 am

If MAH4546 thinks there is a possibility that STL-LON may come back eventually then I do believe we could see this flight again. He definitely is in the know on AA happenings.

AA still has a fairly decent sized operation there (similar to NW at MEM or CO at CLE), and with cargo, connecting and o/d passenegrs it could work. I think as someone mentioned daily at peak times and maybe 4x weekly in off peak would be a good idea.
 
Super80DFW
Topic Author
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:54 am

Just wondering, why would MCI get the TATL flight before STL? I thought STL is bigger and has a hub. MCI's only airline hub is WN and we all know they don't fly out of the country.
EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
commavia
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:55 am

The market was dropped because, after the hub pulldown in 2003, AA couldn't profitably fill a daily 767 STL-LGW.

However, I think this route could potentially be a prime candidate for a wingletted 757 in the next few years. The 757 would be the perfect size for this market, and would give this still-sizable AA/Connection hub nonstop access to Europe. The wingletted 757 has a range of, I think, about 4000nm, well more than STL-LON. However, that being said, the route is 200nm longer than CO's EWR-TXL, and I know that has problems sometimes.
 
777STL
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:13 am



Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 35):
Just wondering, why would MCI get the TATL flight before STL? I thought STL is bigger and has a hub. MCI's only airline hub is WN and we all know they don't fly out of the country.

Because KC has an inferiority complex to STL. They'd rather see neither city get it than STL.

As far as I know, and I'm sure someone will correct me, but I don't *think* MCI has ever had scheduled trans-atlantic service.
PHX based
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:17 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 36):
However, I think this route could potentially be a prime candidate for a wingletted 757 in the next few years. The 757 would be the perfect size for this market, and would give this still-sizable AA/Connection hub nonstop access to Europe. The wingletted 757 has a range of, I think, about 4000nm, well more than STL-LON. However, that being said, the route is 200nm longer than CO's EWR-TXL, and I know that has problems sometimes.

STL-LON is stretching it too thin for a winglet 757, even though it is within range (and not much longer than CVG-AMS, which Delta will use a 757 on this summer). Where the range of AA's 757's can be stretched to the limit is north/south (i.e. MIA-COR).
a.
 
LHR777
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:31 am



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 11):
KLM also does all the handling of NWA flights in Europe. NWA has zero employees in Europe except for on at KLM HDQ, and cargo sales people.

Even at LGW, an airport that KLM does not serve and has no presence at all? I'd imagine they'd use a handling agent such as Aviance or Servisair, but do they have no NW employees at all at LGW? Not even a Station Manager or engineering staff?
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:25 pm



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 39):
Even at LGW, an airport that KLM does not serve and has no presence at all? I'd imagine they'd use a handling agent such as Aviance or Servisair, but do they have no NW employees at all at LGW? Not even a Station Manager or engineering staff?

NWA has zero employees at LGW or any place else in Europe, except for cargo and one at KLM headquarters.Your'e right about the handling agent in LGW. FYI, KLM has zero employees in North America except for cargo and one manager at NW headquarters
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:21 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 22):
Under Bermuda 2 I believe that STL could only be served from either LHR or LGW by an American airline. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe in those days (1979) STL was a TW hub.

With no possibility of a British airline flying the route and STL no longer being a main hub for a major American airline there was most unlikely to be any direct STL-LON flights.

British Caledonian began service to STL in April, 1980, initially with 707s, switching to DC-10s in October. The route was suspended before the merger with BA; I think it only lasted a year or two. However, BA acquired BCAL's dormant STL authority during the merger; if BA felt they could make a profit on the route, they can add it at any time.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1233
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RE: Why No STL-LON?

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:50 pm



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 32):
Weird. When TW/AA ran the route the cargo loads were notoriously poor. I think first class was the bigger issue of the two, however. I'm just speculating on which was a bigger problem though, I really don't know.



Quoting OBSMGR (Reply 33):
When I was in management at TWA, I don't seem to recal that being an issue. It was certainly true of the CDG route, and there were fears about how FRA would do with cargo, but in the case of LGW, it was the cargo that carried the flight for years...

TWA had several lucrative cargo contracts with UK based firms which kept the bellies full and yields good, but while cabin loads were decent, yields were marginal at best and premium cabin traffic was virtually non-existent. After the AA takeover, the contracts were cancelled or not renewed, I don't recall which but this essentially rendered this flight useless. AA moving the slot to DFW made much more sense.

If the 757 had the legs for STL-LON it would be the perfect plane for this route, the 763 is just too much...

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