Hawaiian Air To Spend $4.4B On 24 New Airbus Jets

koruman · Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 101):
Are we not thinking of how the loads would be balanced on the 5000 mile SouthPac-HNL and 7200 mile HNL-LON/MAN legs? You'd have to use some unique yield management to not overload the SouthPac segment and get a 50% load factor on the longer HNL-Europe segment

I wouldn't think that it would be rocket science.

You'd want to have a much higher-yield configuration to make this work. Instead of the current 18J / 230Y or whatever it is (on a much smaller 767) you'd be looking for 56 lie-flat business / 200 economy. So long as the lie-flat business seats are sold, it wouldn't matter if only 150 economy seats were sold on SYD-LHR. Hardly anyone would buy lie-flat business seats to HNL as a destination, but there is a proven market for them between the UK and Australia/New Zealand.

Honolulu used to be an important staging-post when DC-8s, DC-10s and 707s had to refuel in mid-Pacific. But with the 787 and A350, it is a viable sole stop between Europe and Australia/NZ. And no-one seems to have noticed the massive rise in wealth in the UK and Australia in recent years, but Hawaiian could tap into that.

[Edited 2007-11-28 21:52:36]

jacobin777 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 98):
I call that a model, with no interior.

..until recently, the A380 didn't have an interiour either...it still flew...the B787 will be flying in a few months..the A350 still hasn't left someone's CAD design yet....

Quoting Koruman (Reply 98):

The 787 currently can't compete with the A350XWB on range or on load.

.....non sequitur. Do you need an A330 for something which requires a route for the A320? The B787 has been built optimally for the routes which it has been designated for.....Many routes don't need the size of the B789 or A359..

..apropos, your comments about the B787 not competing against the A350 on range or load is off anyway..take a look at the general B789 and A358 specs...

PlanesNTrains · Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting COA735 (Reply 94):
Anybody know how Aloha is reacting to this? This could hurt them.

I doubt it has any real meaning to them. Not much difference in 767 vs 737 and A330 vs 737. Actually, it will make it tougher for HA to go into secondary mainland markets, which might make AQ a little giggly. And it will create additional debt for HA, which might make AQ positively giddy. However, in the end, we're talking YEARS OUT for most of these aircraft. I think AQ is probably more worried about next quarter than anything in the next decade.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 98):
I call that a model, with no interior.

Well, it sure as hell ain't made out of paper, is it? But feel free to continue...

-Dave

hiloboy1 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:57 am

Lets stir it up; A little early to try and spend the monies they think they're going to get from JO. Can't be hurting to much to be able to purchase new aircraft.

alangirvan · Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 51):
Quoting Koruman (Reply 34):
It's that direct head-to-head experience on the HNL-SYD route which, more than anything else, has shown Hawaiian that blindly purchasing from Boeing is unwise.

Except that Jetstar will be replacing A332s with 787-8s as soon as the delay is over. So, from 2009 HA 332s will be competing against JQ 787-8s, until the 787-8s go to Qantas domestic to be replaced by 787-9. Wonder if the HA 332s will be the JQ planes? They are almost the same seating capacity.

Leskova · Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:03 am

I'm completely surprised, pleasantly, and amazed at this order - somehow, in my mind, HA was going to order Airbus planes about 5 years after AA and CO became all-Airbus operators... don't ask me why, I don't know - but for some reason, I simply never pictured them ordering planes from Airbus.

Nonetheless - very, very pleasant surprise.

kalakaua · Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:18 am

My heart just sank when I heard this... But oh well. I really doubt that HA wants to wait that long.

gigneil · Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting JetMech (Reply 106):
Is there any current "blue chip" airline that is exclusively Boeing or Airbus for that matter?

Yes. Continental.

NS

bennett123 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:24 am

Jacobin777

Sorry, I should have said that the B787 has not flown yet.

AirTranTUS · Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 97):
I would expect HA to stay with the Dig-E-Players or a future improved Dig-E-Player type model.

And thus remain with an inferior type of IFE that is beaten by some mainland counterparts.

jetmech · Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 112):
Yes. Continental.

And I guess there would be a few more, but that still leaves the majority of "blue chips" with a mix of A and B equipment.

Regards, JetMech

HAL · Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 111):
My heart just sank when I heard this... But oh well. I really doubt that HA wants to wait that long.

Cheer up Kalakaua, in the big scheme of life it's really not such a big deal. We'll get the planes, and keep the service and people we're famous for. There's too much division on the A vs. B subject anyway (especially here on a.net). I've flown both, and although different, they're really great aircraft in their own way. As for Hawaiian not wanting to wait, if you read the fine print in the company release, you'll see that we'll probably be looking for more 330's to lease as early as 2009. Considering how long it takes to spool up for an entirely new type of aircraft, that's practically around the corner.

HAL

scbriml · Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting UAL747-600 (Reply 18):
What is up at BCA and how could they let these guys go Airbus?

Do you think Boeing didn't have an offer for HA? I expect Airbus put a better deal to HA, or maybe, here's a wild suggestion, the A330/A350 combo was the best one for them?

Quoting UAL747-600 (Reply 18):
I feel a complete lose of sales momentum at Boeing

What? Have you seen how many planes Boeing has sold this year? Wow!

Quoting HAL (Reply 44):
Because we have maxed out on the capabilities of the 763, and need something bigger and with longer range. Since the 332 is available long before the 787 is, that is the reason. And now, the 358 and 787 are really neck-and-neck as far as delivery dates available, so that just adds to the logic of going Airbus.

How dare you bring logic and reason to a thread dominated by emotion and folks thowing their toys out the pram. wink

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 90):
I find it interesting that Airbus, who generally doesn't hold back on announcing orders, has no mention of this on their web site.

Probably because they're still in bed?

BR715-A1-30 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:08 am

They could always go for one of these gas guzzlers... LOL!! Silly

scbriml · Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:20 am

Quite a surprise I have to say, but those Airbus planes will look very nice in HA's colours. We obviously don't see HA in this part of the World (we have to go somewhere much closer), but it will be really nice if they do start flying here.

I can't wait to see them!

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Steve Brimley

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Photo © Steve Brimley

slz396 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:27 am

WOW

Just imagine, a US airline ordering the XWB and in the -800 version!
Some people will have to be taken to hospital after reading the report I think.

And another new A330 customer too.
The A330 is set to outsell the 787 this year if this Air(bus)show continues!

Somebody needs to wake up Wings! He'll be so trilled!
HA ordering the A330 is about as big a surprise as CO ordering any, at least to me.

EA CO AS · Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 114):
Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 97):
I would expect HA to stay with the Dig-E-Players or a future improved Dig-E-Player type model.

And thus remain with an inferior type of IFE that is beaten by some mainland counterparts.

If you call IFE that's portable, easy to update and repair and doesn't add a significant weight penalty to each airframe "inferior," then I guess you're right - the DigEplayer is inferior. sarcastic

columba · Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:34 am

Wow this order came as a total surprise. Never expected HA in the market for new aircraft and I expected them to order the 787 in a few years. I am very happy that the A350 has found a second customer from the US and I hope that others will follow (just like I hope for some more 787 orders from Europe Smile

).
Does the A332 has the range to fly from Hawaii to Europe ? I remember that when LH first introduced the A343 they made a flight from FRA to HNL and claimed it as the longest nonstop flight they had ever done. I wonder if HA would be interested in some second hand A340s before their A332 arrive ?

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 23):
I am saddened by this order. I hate Airbus, but normally don't care when they get orders, but this one hits home because HA has been a good Boeing customer. Part of me is holding out hope for HA to back out of their MOU and go with Boeing. Well I guess you win some, and you lose some. boggled brokenheart

Sorry to hear that people have that kind of feelings.

WINGS · Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 116):
Somebody needs to wake up Wings! He'll be so trilled!
HA ordering the A330 is about as big a surprise as CO ordering any, at least to me.

Indeed very surprised. Smile

Regards,
Wings

ha763 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:30 am

I'm actually disappointed that HA went with the A358. Not that I don't like Airbus, but that I think the A358 may be too big for HA. Demand from the mainland to Hawaii is high right now, but isn't guaranteed to stay high or grow in the future. One of the benefits the 767 brought to HA was increased yields on the mainland routes by reducing the number of seats. The A332 will increase seats back to what they had with the DC-10, but at least will allow HA to expand further into Asia that would have been weight restricted for the 767.

In my opinion, it may have been better to go with the 787. HA could have ordered both the -8 and -9 and have an fleet with the capacity of the A332 and A358, but of the same generation and a lot more commonality. This would make it easier to schedule and match capacity to the destinations.

BTW, please refresh my memory. The A330 and A350 will have different pilot ratings?

Quoting Columba (Reply 118):
I remember that when LH first introduced the A343 they made a flight from FRA to HNL and claimed it as the longest nonstop flight they had ever done.

It was actually the A342.

autothrust · Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:52 am

What a surprise! Congrats to HA, it will be great to see this planes come to Europe. The 787 could have been for sure the same good choice as the A350.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 102):
until recently, the A380 didn't have an interiour either..

True it didn't have interiour. But, the Cockpit and all systems were already installed and F-WWOW was almost ready to fly at rollout while the 787 not.

At the beginning of this vid you can clearly see the flight deck being installed and tested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtjTnq5XYcU

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 52):
Oh matey, the XWB isn't more advanced than the 787, its pretty much copied all the advanced technologies that the 787 has. Where did you get the information saying it's a generation ahead when it hasn't even entered design freeze?

Agreed, we will have to wait to see which plane will be more advanced, but to say it copied all technology's is just wrong and you sure know that.Ã‚Â

Ã‚Â
I'm no expert but i didn't know the 787 will have variable chamber wing technology for example. Or the A350 will get bleedless engines.

[Edited 2007-11-29 01:56:16]

columba · Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 122):
It was actually the A342.

Thanks

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 122):
I'm actually disappointed that HA went with the A358. Not that I don't like Airbus, but that I think the A358 may be too big for HA. Demand from the mainland to Hawaii is high right now, but isn't guaranteed to stay high or grow in the future. One of the benefits the 767 brought to HA was increased yields on the mainland routes by reducing the number of seats. The A332 will increase seats back to what they had with the DC-10, but at least will allow HA to expand further into Asia that would have been weight restricted for the 767.

In my opinion, it may have been better to go with the 787. HA could have ordered both the -8 and -9 and have an fleet with the capacity of the A332 and A358, but of the same generation and a lot more commonality. This would make it easier to schedule and match capacity to the destinations.

BTW, please refresh my memory. The A330 and A350 will have different pilot ratings?

I guess HA has evaluated both the A350-800 and the 787-8/-9 and that they came to the conclusion that the Airbus planes fit their requirements best. Even if the A332 and A358 will increase seats back to what they had with the Dc10, times have changed and the operating cost of the new Airbus planes will be much lower than the ones of the Dc10.
I wish them good luck and I am looking forward to see the first pictures of the aircraft in their livery.

worldrider · Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 77):
The A350XWB could easily fly Sydney-Honolulu-London, Brisbane-Honolulu-London, Melbourne-Honolulu-Manchester and Auckland-Honolulu-Dublin and effectively tap into Singapore Airlines and Emirates' existing market. Europeans don't want to travel all the way for a vacation in Hawaii, but if they had a choice between a stopover in 110 degree heat in Dubai, sweltering humidity in Singapore or paradise in Hawaii I'm betting that many of them would opt for Hawaii.

good point, that sounds more like an exotic stopover on their way.. i'm sure London has a very profitable market for Hawaii.

SANFan · Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:29 am

I don't think anyone has yet posted anything along this line of thinking but in a few years, could we not perhaps see HA start some routes that overfly HNL?

For example, no US carrier currently flies n/s from the US Mainland to MNL; HA is due to start serving MNL in a few months. If they are successful and build up a good reputation and flyer-base there, why not think they could eventually start flying n/s to the West Coast or wherever else a market exists?

HA will now have the equipment to, in several years, set up a Mainland "hub" (or 2?) and fly n/s to the Orient, SP, Europe, S America...

Several in this thread have questioned the traffic and economics of all kinds of long distance flying from Hawaii. Simple solution: be ready, willing AND ABLE to find some un- or under-served Mainland-intercontinental routes for Pualani to fly.

BTW, I would (of course) love to see San Diego play a part in such scenarios... scratchchin

bb

EI321 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 88):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 69):
The A318 and A319 have different economics to the 717. Im sure the A318 and possibly the A319 also have higher fuel burn per passenger.

He's right, and what really drives the cost of flying interisland is the engine's ability to handle the high temperatures and frequent cycles of that type of flying. When Aloha tried the 734, it was the CFM engines that did them in; they couldn't cool off enough during the short turnaround times and essentially burned themselves out too quickly. Since the 318/319 has either CFM or IAE or PW6000 engines you'd most likely run into the same problems.

Thats quite interesting, particularly because this basic engine family (BR715-58) is found on Gulfstreams, Global express's and RAF Nimrods - all are long range, low utilisation aircraft.

zeke · Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:58 am

This one was left field, did not expect Airbus would have a look in with this one.

chiad · Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:33 am

Now we wont be so surprised when DL, AA and UA goes A350XWB.
Heck .... maybe even Southwest will go A320NG.
Big grin

chiad · Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 113):
Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 90):
I find it interesting that Airbus, who generally doesn't hold back on announcing orders, has no mention of this on their web site.

Probably because they're still in bed?

He he.
I hear now that Airbus sell their aircraft in their webshop: webshop.airbus.com

Remember to mark for "Delivery to Airport of choice."
It's free when buying a pack of 5 or more.

scbriml · Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:02 pm

It seems they're awake now. smile

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...s/07_11_29_hawaiian_a350_a330.html

Burkhard · Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting Chiad (Reply 128):
It's free when buying a pack of 5 or more.

But you are no longer allowed to send your maintenance crew to do final engine tests.

A real surprise - congrats to both sides.

columba · Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 129):
It seems they're awake now.

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre....html

Too bad that they no pictures yet on how the aircraft will look like.

sandrozrh · Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:25 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 131):
Too bad that they no pictures yet on how the aircraft will look like.

Let's see your photoshop skills Wink

Pohakuloa · Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 131):
Too bad that they no pictures yet on how the aircraft will look like.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 132):
Let's see your photoshop skills

id be interested to see that as well...dont forget the wingtip design *hint: pualani*

ikramerica · Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:05 pm

I doubt the planes will ever be delivered in HA colors, because I don't see HA lasting until 2012. Either they will go chapter 7 or be acquired in that time. If acquired, I don't know what happens to the orders. Depends on who acquires them I guess.

EI321 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:27 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
I doubt the planes will ever be delivered in HA colors, because I don't see HA lasting until 2012. Either they will go chapter 7 or be acquired in that time. If acquired, I don't know what happens to the orders. Depends on who acquires them I guess.

If they are in a precarious financial situation how can they afford to order new planes?

Mir · Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 77):
Europeans don't want to travel all the way for a vacation in Hawaii, but if they had a choice between a stopover in 110 degree heat in Dubai, sweltering humidity in Singapore or paradise in Hawaii I'm betting that many of them would opt for Hawaii.

Several things that could throw a wrench in that:

1) Hawaii is the long way around for pretty much all destinations in Asia from Europe except for New Zealand
2) The US government's policies on transit visas and the like have already made US airports much less desirable as a stopover point, and if the restrictions get more onerous that would only decrease the desirability of a US stopover.

However, from the US, a stop in HNL would be much better than a stop in LAX.

-Mir

AirTranTUS · Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 117):
If you call IFE that's portable, easy to update and repair and doesn't add a significant weight penalty to each airframe "inferior," then I guess you're right - the DigEplayer is inferior.

They don't have enough for everybody and they make you pay for it. Many airlines have moved away from making you pay for IFE, it's a thing of the past.

koruman · Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 136):
) Hawaii is the long way around for pretty much all destinations in Asia from Europe except for New Zealand
2) The US government's policies on transit visas and the like have already made US airports much less desirable as a stopover point, and if the restrictions get more onerous that would only decrease the desirability of a US stopover.

With regard to the first point, as I showed earlier it is a comparable distance and flight time for flights between both Australia and New Zealand and the UK.

As for the second point, Australia, New Zealand and the UK are all Visa-Waiver nations, so the issue doesn't arise any more than it does on flight NZ1 (London-Los Angeles-Auckland). In fact, I expect that each of the three countries will get US Customs and Immigration pre-clearance like Canada, at which point flying via HNL will be nothing more than a domestic-style stop.

Hawaiian already flies to Sydney, I'm suggesting that they use the long legs of the A350 to make profits on LHR-Australia and New Zealand passengers.

gilesdavies · Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:36 pm

Great news, but was not expecting this order... Another new customer to add to this aircraft type that refuses to die and be replaced by the A350!

Those A330's will look great in HA colours! I was in Seattle in May and saw two 763's parked up and they looked awesome!

In the HW press release I like the comments about Airbus in the US as a manufacturer and assume this was added to try and quosh any bad feeling not buying American...

About Airbus
Airbus is a leading aircraft manufacturer with the most modern and comprehensive aircraft product line on the market. Each new Airbus order means new business for American companies. In 2006 alone, Airbus spent $10.2 billion with suppliers in more than 40 U.S. states supporting more than 190,000 American jobs. Airbus is an EADS company.

DIA · Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:43 pm

I don't understand all the "HA was loyal to Boeing" talk is regarding HA.

They have had L1011s, DC-8s, DC-9s, DC-10s...and probably more than I can recall.

scbriml · Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting DIA (Reply 140):
I don't understand all the "HA was loyal to Boeing" talk is regarding HA.

Maybe loyalty has a much shorter time-span these days? wink

JAAlbert · Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:38 pm

This is a surprise. But, really I have always hated the fact that so few US airlines fly airbus widebodies, especially here on the west coast. I would love to see a few 330s fly into SAN as well as the 350. I recently flew HA to hawaii on one of their 767s and while I've always enjoyed the 767, I did notice this time around that those windows seemed awfully small. I can't wait for the new generation of jets with the bigger windows!

Any chance SAN will see the 330 in HA livery?

lhpdx · Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:40 pm

Wow! Pdx will see 4-5 A330-200 with Hawaiian and Northwest in the future........

jacobin777 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 109):
Jacobin777

Sorry, I should have said that the B787 has not flown yet.

..no need to apologise..I only wanted to make sure we were on the same wavelength.. highfive

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 116):

Just imagine, a US airline ordering the XWB and in the -800 version!
Some people will have to be taken to hospital after reading the report I think.

..no need to get your panties in twist...there was eventually going to be a USofA buyer of the -800XWB..you make it sound like as if some USofA corporation purchasing an XWB is some kind of miracle......what's new..? sarcastic

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 116):
The A330 is set to outsell the 787 this year if this Air(bus)show continues!

...so? neither one day, week, month or year makes a sales trend....how about looking at the whole picture..and look at profit margins also...seems like you enjoy drinking the "I've sold more planes than you" kool-aid...

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 120):
but that I think the A358 may be too big for HA.

..that is what I was thinking..the A358 (or B789) being too big. HA feels otherwise....more power to them..

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 121):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 102):
until recently, the A380 didn't have an interiour either..

True it didn't have interiour. But, the Cockpit and all systems were already installed and F-WWOW was almost ready to fly at rollout while the 787 not.

.....the B787 cockpit and sytems are basically completed..its a far cry from saying the B787 is a "paper" airplane..and that is my point.. yes

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 121):
At the beginning of this vid you can clearly see the flight deck being installed and tested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtjTnq5XYcU

...no need, I'll take your word on it.. Smile

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 134):
I doubt the planes will ever be delivered in HA colors, because I don't see HA lasting until 2012. Either they will go chapter 7 or be acquired in that time. If acquired, I don't know what happens to the orders. Depends on who acquires them I guess.

..from the Bloomberg Press Release, it states HA has been around for 70+ years...granted times and situations have changed but I don't see a reason as to why HA won't be around in the future...

Quoting Mir (Reply 136):
2) The US government's policies on transit visas and the like have already made US airports much less desirable as a stopover point, and if the restrictions get more onerous that would only decrease the desirability of a US stopover.

...Mir, I have been making that argument also..however, in another thread, my comment was debated with some stats stating tourism to the USofA is almost, if not at record highs...

Quoting Mir (Reply 136):

1) Hawaii is the long way around for pretty much all destinations in Asia from Europe except for New Zealand

....

Boeing7E7 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 44):
The preliminary specs suggest lower costs in most areas, most importantly fuel burn. It wond be a huge difference though, probably similar to the 767 Vs A330.

The A350 is so lacking in definition that there are no cost benchmarks, nor are there any objective fuel estimates. It is a larger aircraft than the 787, but that does not directly translate to a more efficient aircraft than the 787. Perhaps it is superior to a 777, but there is no truth to the statement that the A350 is a superior aircraft to the 787. The A358, as it stands will be equal to the 787-9. We'll see how that holds as design refinement is accomplished. Until then, a claim to superiority is completely absurd.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 95):
It was a gimmick to unveil it on 7/8/7, but that bird couldn't take off and fly that day any more than the Spruce Goose could!

So then what is the A350?

Quoting UA2162 (Reply 92):
How do you think AQ will respond?

Buy the 180 and 230 seat versions of the 737RS and smoke Hawaiian in the marketplace by more point to point serivce to all major Hawaii destinations (KOA/HNL/OGG/LIH vs. all HNL/OGG. This will result in them operating in a less volitale economic environment. Aloha is clearly focused on the Hawaii passengers where Hawaiian appears to view HNL as an international jump point.

[Edited 2007-11-29 08:10:43]

ebj1248650 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 2):
6+6=24???

New math?

12 + 12 options.

ebj1248650 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:07 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 37):
Who's face? Can an order not simply be an order? It seems like there is some sort of required emotional damage that must have been done everytime someone buys a plane. Does someone cry at Burger King everytime I buy a Big Mac???

-Dave

And you have to know that Boeing knows full well its airplanes don't fit everyone's needs, and that some customers will go to Airbus. Bet you a burger Airbus knows that some of their customers will go to Airbus too.

474218 · Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:22 pm

Quoting XaraB (Reply 59):
Do you honestly think that Airbus will design an inferior plane entering service at least 4 years after the 787?

Yes.

[quote=Gigneil,reply=96]The A318 and 319 are absolutely not more efficient than the 717, nor do they have the high-cycle construction.

A318/A319 Service Life goal = 48,000 cycles

B717 Service Life goal = 60,000 cycles

ikramerica · Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:22 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 145):
..from the Bloomberg Press Release, it states HA has been around for 70+ years...granted times and situations have changed but I don't see a reason as to why HA won't be around in the future...

the market is changing, and when there is another downturn, HA will perish. that's just my prediction. they nearly perished last time, they are still losing money interisland, and other than interisland, they don't offer anything that 5 other carriers don't also offer.

as for the perpetuity of HA, just tell that to pan am, TWA, eastern, western, piedmont, swissair, sabena, etc. Either dissolved or bought out each one...

I don't think HA will last 5 years. The planes start arriving in 5 years. I stick to that. The planes may still arrive, but they won't be painted in HA colors. Maybe US Airways colors?

PlanesNTrains · Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:32 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 116):
Just imagine, a US airline ordering the XWB and in the -800 version!
Some people will have to be taken to hospital after reading the report I think.

If you get any more excited, it might be you.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 121):
True it didn't have interiour. But, the Cockpit and all systems were already installed and F-WWOW was almost ready to fly at rollout while the 787 not.

Does it really matter? The point was it's not a paper airplane. Why do we get off on these tangents???

Quoting Columba (Reply 131):
Too bad that they no pictures yet on how the aircraft will look like.

I think it is going to be gorgeous!

Quoting EI321 (Reply 135):
If they are in a precarious financial situation how can they afford to order new planes?

Boy, there's the $64,000 question for the industry.....

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 137):
They don't have enough for everybody and they make you pay for it. Many airlines have moved away from making you pay for IFE, it's a thing of the past.

Well, not all carriers are or should be the same. If it works for their primarily leisure travelers, and it keeps their costs low, more power to them. They aren't trying to be SQ, EK, et al.

Quoting DIA (Reply 140):
I don't understand all the "HA was loyal to Boeing" talk is regarding HA.

Agreed. Why do I feel like the only one who isn't a bit surprised by this order? Maybe I dreamed about it or something.

-Dave

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