Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 137): Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 117): If you call IFE that's portable, easy to update and repair and doesn't add a significant weight penalty to each airframe "inferior," then I guess you're right - the DigEplayer is inferior. They don't have enough for everybody and they make you pay for it. Many airlines have moved away from making you pay for IFE

Obviously they - and many other airlines - have opted not to move away from this, as it's still a revenue-generator. Besides, the marketplace is moving more towards a value-added model where you pay incrementally for different options you'd like with your travel experience.

Here's your ticket, and it costs X. Oh, and you want IFE? That's a bit extra. Onboard meals? A bit extra, too. And so forth.

Not saying this is the way HA is headed - far from it - but the IFE side clearly brings in some revenue, and they do so using a solution that's inexpensive to the bottom line, both in unit costs as well as keeping fuel burn down; no sense in permanently installing a 900lb IFE module onto an airframe to serve 250 people when only 100 will actually make use of it.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 149):
[quote=Gigneil,reply=96]The A318 and 319 are absolutely not more efficient than the 717, nor do they have the high-cycle construction.
The cycles difference is a result of different design philosophies, not technology.

I don't know if your efficiency claims are correct; a source would be nice. However, according to info on this site, the A319 was launched in its current form in 1993, while the 717 was launched in 1998 (a relaunch of the 1991 MD-95, which among other things included an engine upgrade from the MD-95 plans), so the A319 is an "older" plane in this matter. In addition, the A319 is a shrink while the 717 is a stretch of their respective baseline models, and shrinks tend to worsen the platforms efficiency while a stretch improves it. So I do not see how this example illustrates that Airbus may build technologically inferior airplanes in the future...

Edited for spelling, or at least I tried to... The changes didn't appear the three first times...

[Edited 2007-11-29 08:42:55]

[Edited 2007-11-29 08:44:04]

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 150): Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 145): ..from the Bloomberg Press Release, it states HA has been around for 70+ years...granted times and situations have changed but I don't see a reason as to why HA won't be around in the future... the market is changing, and when there is another downturn, HA will perish. that's just my prediction. they nearly perished last time, they are still losing money interisland, and other than interisland, they don't offer anything that 5 other carriers don't also offer. as for the perpetuity of HA, just tell that to pan am, TWA, eastern, western, piedmont, swissair, sabena, etc. Either dissolved or bought out each one... I don't think HA will last 5 years. The planes start arriving in 5 years. I stick to that. The planes may still arrive, but they won't be painted in HA colors. Maybe US Airways colors?

..of course, you are certainly entitled to your opinion..but the fact they "nearly perished" last time and still are around goes to show their "staying power"....

They offer a decent service at very competitive fares. Load factor, earnings, margins have all improved y-o-y..ok, it has basically for all carriers, but at least we aren't seeing HA losing money...

While I don't believe in the "a company must expand or die" motto which many (basically all) on Wall Street seem to always want , I do think HA needs to think about their future and future competition.

Quoting XaraB (Reply 152): I don't know if your efficiency claims are correct; a source would be nice.

I don't doubt that the 717 is better than the 319/320 for some missions. If it was as much better overall as some in this thread claim, however, it would be a lot more widespread than it is, and it would still be in production.

-Mir

Quoting HAL (Reply 43): HNL-LHR = 6289nm, range of the A358 is 6900nm, range of the 777LR is 8865nm. Yes, it can be easily done.

I'm sure the -800 will have more range than this, even with HA high density config.

Quoting Charlipr (Reply 51): But Airbus hasn't even finalized the 350XWB specs!!! How can you honestly say is a more advanced aircraft?

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 52): Oh matey, the XWB isn't more advanced than the 787, its pretty much copied all the advanced technologies that the 787 has. Where did you get the information saying it's a generation ahead when it hasn't even entered design freeze?

Improved aerodynamics, more advanced engines will do the trick

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 58): While a split order would have been foolish, the 787-8 would probably have been a better aircraft for long & thin routes to Europe, Australia, East Coast North America, etc.

I don't think it will be easy to beat the economics of a -800 stuffed with 322 seats...

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 60): Because Airbus has made announcements, regarding technologies that it will be using that Boeing had pioneered on the 787, such as the Electronic Windows, CFP Panels etc.

Boeing did not pioneer any of these...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 89): ..what do you call this?

A full scale mock-up?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 144): Quoting Slz396 (Reply 116): The A330 is set to outsell the 787 this year if this Air(bus)show continues! ...so? neither one day, week, month or year makes a sales trend....how about looking at the whole picture..and look at profit margins also...seems like you enjoy drinking the "I've sold more planes than you" kool-aid...

Funny that some people have been using the exact same argument when it came to the 747 vs A380 in the past few years...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 153): ..of course, you are certainly entitled to your opinion..but the fact they "nearly perished" last time and still are around goes to show their "staying power"....

No it doesn't. It just shows they didn't perish last time, not that they are now somehow bullet proof.

There will be consolidation in the market in the next 4 years. HA will be part of it. And if they aren't, they will go under during the next market downturn and not come out this time. There are only so many investors willing to routinely lose money on HA before they can't get more funding during the next problem.

I like HA. I enjoyed my flights with them. But it doesn't change the reality of their problems.

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 52): Oh matey, the XWB isn't more advanced than the 787, its pretty much copied all the advanced technologies that the 787 has. Where did you get the information saying it's a generation ahead when it hasn't even entered design freeze?

Yeah, I don't know where Koruman is coming from. By the time the A330's start flying for HA, they will be a generation behind the 787.

If HA is waiting until 2012 to receive its first A330-200, but looking at 2009 to start leasing some, isn't there a way they could have worked out a deal with Boeing to get the 787's sooner? Its not a huge number of planes they are requiring, and I just think that HA would have been better off flying the 787-800 and -900 instead of the A330-200 and A350XWB. Won't the 787's be in service by then? I know there's more to the story here.

Wow, never saw this coming either! Great news for HA and Airbus, and it will be nice to see HA expand their route network to more destinations.

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 97): A very exciting time here in HNL with more and more Airbuses coming through on a regular basis!

Yup, Airbuses in Hawaii have always been rare, but over time airlines have started deploying them on their Hawaii routes. Looks like we will now have some resident A330s and A350XWBs!

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 4): well what exactly would they buy from boeing to replace their 767s??? They could stand in line and be #700 for the 787 or they could get the A330 now.

They could get 777's too for now.

I doubt HA will go to an International First Class product, as UAL and AA are the only US based airlines currently offer this class of service. They currently have a domestic First Class/Coach configuration. I would expect them to do some sort of enhanced international business class as offered by CO and NW except with lie flat seats. By that time. lie flat seats will be standard for International Business Class.

Quoting HAL (Reply 88): and what really drives the cost of flying interisland is the engine's ability to handle the high temperatures and frequent cycles of that type of flying. When Aloha tried the 734, it was the CFM engines that did them in; they couldn't cool off enough during the short turnaround times and essentially burned themselves out too quickly. Since the 318/319 has either CFM or IAE or PW6000 engines you'd most likely run into the same problems.

From what I know, the PW6000 was specifically designed with a high-cycle and low-maintenance environment in mind.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 67): Im sure the A318 and possibly the A319 also have higher fuel burn per passenger.

I don't see why the A319 should burn more fuel per pax? The 717 can seat 134 and the A319 150, optionally 156. If the 717 had a lower CASM than the A319/737, it would have sold like hotcakes. But it didn't.
4U once leased one or two 717s for a while. But in the end, they found the A319 to be more economical. And PG is replacing its 717s with A320 series aircraft.

Quoting Mir (Reply 154): I don't doubt that the 717 is better than the 319/320 for some missions. If it was as much better overall as some in this thread claim, however, it would be a lot more widespread than it is, and it would still be in production.

  

Quoting EI321 (Reply 124): Thats quite interesting, particularly because this basic engine family (BR715-58) is found on Gulfstreams, Global express's and RAF Nimrods - all are long range, low utilisation aircraft.

Careful! Only the 717 uses the BR715. All the other aircraft you mention use the smaller, lower-thrust BR710. Both belong to the BR700 family, but they're different.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 156): There will be consolidation in the market in the next 4 years. HA will be part of it. And if they aren't, they will go under during the next market downturn and not come out this time.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 149): the market is changing, and when there is another downturn, HA will perish.

You have made these same predictions in several other threads involving HA. Fact is, you don't seem to have a very good grasp about HA at all.
HA is the 2nd oldest airline in the U.S.A.
HA has constantly evolved to meet the challenges of today's industry. The owners of HA (Ranch Capital) are financially committed to HA's long term survival. We have made several changes to the way we do business including out sourcing our call center, heavy maintenance, and IT departments and these decisions are starting to pay off as the 3rd Qtr profit sheets can attest. HA has been flying since 1929 and will continue to be around long after I've passed on. Their is no doubt about that.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 136): They don't have enough for everybody and they make you pay for it. Many airlines have moved away from making you pay for IFE, it's a thing of the past.

We all know you work for Mesa and hate HA. Maybe you can start a topic about HA's inferior IFE to it's mainland counterparts. Funny thing though, our passengers don't seem to mind. They've voted us best airline to Hawaii nearly 10 years running, we lead the industry in on-time performance, and baggage service, so again, people seem to be happy with us.

As for the rest of you that have been so surprised about HA choosing Airbus, it really wasn't a huge surprise to me. Our CEO, Mark Dunkerley, is European, with a long work history with European Carriers. He still has many ties to Europe.
A few months ago, he approached the union leaders of the three largest HA labor groups and asked that the groups expedite our new labor contracts, as they all expire this month. He made it known to us that there was a proposal from Airbus to acquire new aircraft, but it would hinge on the ability of the company to settle all labor contracts before agreeing to terms with airbus. We were told that the deal was too good to pass up. There was speculation here in the last few weeks that Boeing was offering a counter-proposal, but I guess it wasn't as good as the Airbus proposal.
I'm happy either way. I get to fly on brand new planes in a few years and am excited about the prospects of new routes to Europe. I can almost assure you, non-stop routes to Europe from Honolulu will be coming within the next decade. Again, remember our CEO is European.

Aloha,
HALFA

Wall Street likes the deal. Hawaiian shares (HA) are one of the very few airline stocks up today.

I think it is an important move, laying the ground work for a future that goes well beyond mainland US to the islands.

mariner

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 142): Any chance SAN will see the 330 in HA livery?

I think its pretty likely. And I totally share your desire to see it at SAN too!

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 155): Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 89): ..what do you call this? A full scale mock-up?

...I was calling out the fact the poster stated it was a "paper" airplane when indeed it isn't....

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 155): Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 144): Quoting Slz396 (Reply 116): The A330 is set to outsell the 787 this year if this Air(bus)show continues! ...so? neither one day, week, month or year makes a sales trend....how about looking at the whole picture..and look at profit margins also...seems like you enjoy drinking the "I've sold more planes than you" kool-aid... Funny that some people have been using the exact same argument when it came to the 747 vs A380 in the past few years...

.....funny, but I'm not the one making ignorant comments as such.. 

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 156): No it doesn't. It just shows they didn't perish last time, not that they are now somehow bullet proof.

.....I never said they are "bullet proof", I stated they have the ability to deal with adverse conditions and downturns in the industry.....which they have otherwise they would have either folded or been acquired...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 144): my comment was debated with some stats stating tourism to the USofA is almost, if not at record highs...

The very low $ is a considerable help in that respect. It's enough of a help to overcome the sometimes painful hoops that us "goddam forners" have to jump through to visit your fair land. On the whole, it's worth it!   

Quoting HALFA (Reply 162):

Good post, with some interesting additional information.   

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 165): ...I was calling out the fact the poster stated it was a "paper" airplane when indeed it isn't....

Yes, we know. Unfortunately, given what we subsequently learned about the plane, your open-ended comment invited the inevitable responses. Not that I'm condoning or agreeing, you understand.

Quoting XaraB (Reply 152): The cycles difference is a result of different design philosophies, not technology.

Quoting XaraB (Reply 152): So I do not see how this example illustrates that Airbus may build technologically inferior airplanes in the future...

I was in no way referring to their technologies. In every way, the 717 is a technologically inferior device. It is, however, more efficient in the Hawaiian operation and is designed for the high-cycle Hawaiian operation.

NS

Quoting HALFA (Reply 162): I get to fly on brand new planes in a few years and am excited about the prospects of new routes to Europe. I can almost assure you, non-stop routes to Europe from Honolulu will be coming within the next decade. Again, remember our CEO is European. Aloha, HALFA

Yay! I can't wait for the MUC-HNL connection!   I know, wishful thinking, but I'd be one of the first pax to book the route...

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 109): And thus remain with an inferior type of IFE that is beaten by some mainland counterparts.

Of all the things that don't matter in life, whether an airline has IFE provided by Digiplayer or in-seat monitor has zero effect on demand or fare.

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 119): but that I think the A358 may be too big for HA. Demand from the mainland to Hawaii is high right now, but isn't guaranteed to stay high or grow in the future.

HA had a recent quarter where they operated a near 90% LF but lost money. I don't think demand is a problem at HA.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 136): Many airlines have moved away from making you pay for IFE, it's a thing of the past.

I think as more airlines realize that the heavy IFE equipment they're lugging around, burning fuel, is not inducing any fare premium or brand loyalty, they'll start to think long and hard about charging for IFE.

Quoting HALFA (Reply 162): I get to fly on brand new planes in a few years and am excited about the prospects of new routes to Europe. I can almost assure you, non-stop routes to Europe from Honolulu will be coming within the next decade. Again, remember our CEO is European.

I am going to make a bold connection and possible "conspiracy theory" here. HA is an airline partner with Virgin Atlantic. SRB had saif he would like to see non-stop flights to HNL (or atleast rumoured as such). With the arrival of the A358XWB at HAL, it could be the link to the Hawaiian islands that he has been looking for.

And there is an opinion stated by an idiot (refering to me of course). But who knows. Just one of many different scenario running around in my mind.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 166): Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 144): my comment was debated with some stats stating tourism to the USofA is almost, if not at record highs... The very low $ is a considerable help in that respect. It's enough of a help to overcome the sometimes painful hoops that us "goddam forners" have to jump through to visit your fair land. On the whole, it's worth it!

..and it certainly pains me when I come to your side of the pond...  

..some supposed Goldman Sachs maven stated today that he expects to see an appreciation of the $US dollar against the Euro and other currencies but a drop against Asian currencies...

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 167): Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 165): ...I was calling out the fact the poster stated it was a "paper" airplane when indeed it isn't.... Yes, we know. Unfortunately, given what we subsequently learned about the plane, your open-ended comment invited the inevitable responses. Not that I'm condoning or agreeing, you understand.

...I don't think my question was really "open-ended"...I was only trying to make myself clear on the point the plane wasn't a "paper airplane"...I only defended my position...and of course I do understand.. 

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 172): I am going to make a bold connection and possible "conspiracy theory" here. HA is an airline partner with Virgin Atlantic. SRB had saif he would like to see non-stop flights to HNL (or atleast rumoured as such). With the arrival of the A358XWB at HAL, it could be the link to the Hawaiian islands that he has been looking for.

Thats a good idea because i didn't really understand where they would be getting landing slots from, if into LHR it would have to be pretty expensive to maybe Virgin would help them buy some slots.

Quoting Lesismore (Reply 157): If HA is waiting until 2012 to receive its first A330-200, but looking at 2009 to start leasing some, isn't there a way they could have worked out a deal with Boeing to get the 787's sooner? Its not a huge number of planes they are requiring, and I just think that HA would have been better off flying the 787-800 and -900 instead of the A330-200 and A350XWB. Won't the 787's be in service by then? I know there's more to the story here.

The A358 is probably better for routes like europe, the plane is made for long range routes like the 777 and with it being shorter it gives it a little more range while the 787 is meant more for a 767 route which isn't great for Hawaii-Europe.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 123): BTW, I would (of course) love to see San Diego play a part in such scenarios.

would be great! i think if all goes well HA could become more than just a hawaii carrier.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 142): This is a surprise. But, really I have always hated the fact that so few US airlines fly airbus widebodies, especially here on the west coast. I would love to see a few 330s fly into SAN as well as the 350. I recently flew HA to hawaii on one of their 767s and while I've always enjoyed the 767, I did notice this time around that those windows seemed awfully small. I can't wait for the new

I think if the A330s are replacing the 767s we could see an A330 at SAN, i think (i could be wrong) SAN is one of their larger markets and they could use some more capacity, even though there are currently no A330s at SAN i think it could still land there, it can right? As for the A350 i dont think it will come to SAN it is around the area of the 777 whcih is not profitable out of SAN so i think the biggest would be a 787 not the A350 though.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 171): ...I don't think my question was really "open-ended"...I was only trying to make myself clear on the point the plane wasn't a "paper airplane"...I only defended my position...and of course I do understand..

The question wasn't open ended, I just couldn't resist... All in good spirit of course.

Quoting XaraB (Reply 151): The cycles difference is a result of different design philosophies, not technology.

I don't think I mentioned anything about their technology, just the design life goals.

Quoting Dl767captain (Reply 172): The A358 is probably better for routes like europe, the plane is made for long range routes like the 777 and with it being shorter it gives it a little more range while the 787 is meant more for a 767 route which isn't great for Hawaii-Europe.

The 787 is an ultra long range aircraft. Its meant for 767 sized routes, but not their range or payload.

The 787 is ideal for SRB to launch HNL if he desires, but aren't all his frames on order 787-9s?

NS

Quoting B6FA4ever (Reply 14): The first A350XWB-800 will join Hawaiian's fleet in 2017. The wide-body jet will seat 322 passengers in a two-class configuration (First and Coach) and have a range of 69,000 nautical miles,

Geez! That's one heck of a plane!

Quoting HAL (Reply 15): It means growth, new markets,

Quoting HAL (Reply 28): This is going to be fun to participate in!

With a 69,000 nm range, you betcha it will mean growth and new markets! Heck, you could fly from HNL to OGG the LONG way around! Now that'll be fun to participate in, eh HAL?  

Quoting HAL (Reply 30): I just put a 6900nm circle around HNL on the 'great circle mapper',

Now try a 69,000 nm circle and see what you get!

Hee hee. HAL, hope this purchase means great career expansion possibilities for you.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 173): Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 171): ...I don't think my question was really "open-ended"...I was only trying to make myself clear on the point the plane wasn't a "paper airplane"...I only defended my position...and of course I do understand.. The question wasn't open ended, I just couldn't resist... All in good spirit of course.

...got it   ..too many people get and take A.net a bit too personal sometimes....sometimes not enough fun amongst aviation friends.. 

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 175): The 787 is ideal for SRB to launch HNL if he desires, but aren't all his frames on order 787-9s?

Yes i'm pretty sure the order is for 787-9s, but those could eventually be converted to the 787-10 variant

Some hundred and something odd posts i finally get time to jump in and congratulate Airbus. Although this is a small order i think that it is a great endorsement for the A350. I say that because when this campaign was launched Airbus was highly scepticle of their chances of winning the RFP because Hawaiian was such a strong Boeing customer.

At least Hawaiin plans to operate a mixed fleet of 767s and AB widebodies well into the future, so who knows, there may be an opportunity for the 787 sometime in the future although highly doubtful.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 178): Yes i'm pretty sure the order is for 787-9s, but those could eventually be converted to the 787-10 variant

I would think both to be too big for SRB to op LHR-HNL profitably. A 787-8 would be right sized, at least at first.

A 787-9 would be good growth for that route.

NS

Quoting Lokey123 (Reply 179): Although this is a small order i think that it is a great endorsement for the A350. I say that because when this campaign was launched Airbus was highly scepticle of their chances of winning the RFP because Hawaiian was such a strong Boeing customer.

Is this actual inside info, or are you speculating? I ask because it would seem strange for Airbus to have this attitude when history has shown HA being open to a variety of airframes and manufacturers.

Just curious.

-Dave

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 181): when history has shown HA being open to a variety of airframes and manufacturers

Indeed. I think the 767 is the only Boeing designed plane they've ever operated.

In their history they've operated:
DC-3
CV-340/440
DC-6
YS-11
Viscount
DHC-7
L.188
DC-9
DC-8
DC-10
L.1011

That's a nice selection from a variety of manufacturers.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 144): It was a gimmick to unveil it on 7/8/7, but that bird couldn't take off and fly that day any more than the Spruce Goose could! So then what is the A350?

Would you please stop this A vs B nonsense. The A350 is an aircraft that is currently designed by Airbus and offered for sale. No parts have been build yet. Boeing wanted to have a roll-out on 7/8/7 and rolled out an unfinished aircraft that was build together in a rush and that was not flightworthy. That is the difference.
I am an aviation enthusiast and I make no difference between Airbus or Boeing, both are great manufacturers that offer great products but the 787 roll-out was a PR disaster in my opinion.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 181): or are you speculating

I usually don't speculate without stating as such.

Quoting Lokey123 (Reply 184): I usually don't speculate without stating as such.

Well, then I guess I'm surprised that Airbus felt that way.

-Dave

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 154): Improved aerodynamics, more advanced engines will do the trick

Well, if the 210-foot wingspan is any indication I wouldn't hold my breath on this claim. Engines are the same, so you miss there as well. Maybe better than a 330, but I wouldn't coun't my chickens on the rest of your claims.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 186): Engines are the same

To make it short, no. I'm not saying they'll be better on the A350, but they aren't the same.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 155): There are only so many investors willing to routinely lose money on HA before they can't get more funding during the next problem.

Remember that Hawaiian was the first (and only I believe) US carrier to emerge from Ch 11 while repaying 100 cents in the dollar to investors.

The Airbus order has been speculated for some time - good to see it come to fruition.

R

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 186): Well, if the 210-foot wingspan is any indication I wouldn't hold my breath on this claim

Are you inferring that the A350's 64m wingspan is indicative of inferior aerodynamics?
Greater span of itself almost certainly improves aerodynamic performance.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 186): Engines are the same, so you miss there as well

Not sure I understood this either. The Trent-XWB is not the same engine as the Trent 1000 (or GEnx for that matter)

It will be somewhat more modern, and more efficient, than the Trent 1000.
Whether that makes it a "generation ahead", as Airbus claim, is a different matter.
IMO RR themselves see the -XWB as "derivative" (as indeed they do ALL engines of the Trent family).

Regards

Quoting HALFA (Reply 161): We all know you work for Mesa and hate HA.

1. I don't work for Mesa. So "we all" are wrong.
2. I don't hate any airline. What I hate is arrogance. The arrogance that some people from highly-rated airlines show when they know they are good and thus show hatred towards everything that is not of their own.

My guess is that Hawaiian Airlines may have gotten a deal to have another airline with a large A330 fleet to service the planes (maybe Northwest, which has a very large A330 fleet?).

I believe that HA bought the A330-200 for one reason: it can cover just about all transpacific destinations from HNL non-stop with this plane at the design still-air range of 6,400 nautical miles. That means HA could fly from Honolulu as far east as the US East Coast and as far west as Hong Kong and Manila with the A332. With the A350-800 and its circa 8,000 nautical still-air range, HA could cover most of Europe non-stop from HNL.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 2): 6+6=24???

Not really. The government uses these same formulae to figure out your payable income tax.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 186): Well, if the 210-foot wingspan is any indication I wouldn't hold my breath on this claim.

A greater wing area, which Airbus is achieving through both a larger wingspan and a greater chord, improves aerodynamic efficiency significantly though lower wing loading. They are also increasing the angle of the wing, so the fact that the wingspan is as great as it is is quite significant.

It would seem you do not understand what you are talking about.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 186): Engines are the same, so you miss there as well.

The Trent XWB will improve performance over the Trent 1000 incrementally at least.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 143): .....the B787 cockpit and sytems are basically completed..its a far cry from saying the B787 is a "paper" airplane..and that is my point.. yes

Its still held together with paper clips though isn't it?  

Well done to airbus with this one, looks like A330 now and A350 later is a real winning combination for them.

Fred

Quoting Koruman (Reply 77): The A350XWB could easily fly Sydney-Honolulu-London, Brisbane-Honolulu-London, Melbourne-Honolulu-Manchester and Auckland-Honolulu-Dublin and effectively tap into Singapore Airlines and Emirates' existing market. Europeans don't want to travel all the way for a vacation in Hawaii, but if they had a choice between a stopover in 110 degree heat in Dubai, sweltering humidity in Singapore or paradise in Hawaii I'm betting that many of them would opt for Hawaii. The current Emirates flight from Auckland to London stops twice, at Singapore and Dubai and travels 12,278 miles. In contrast, a Hawaiian flight from Auckland to London via Honolulu would be one-stop and travel 11,626 miles.

Nice observation. Makes a lot of sense to me.

It was indeed surprising to hear Hawaiian would go for the A350. But strong negotiations and earlier availability of an even more promising plane won the contract for Airbus. I believe we expected airlines from the mainland US to order A350s first than an airline like HA. Congrats to both, and good luck to HA on their expansion plans.

Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 176): HAL, hope this purchase means great career expansion possibilities for you.

Scarlet, I think it does, and just reconfirms my decision to come back here. Considering the strife going on over at AWA/US, I think I'm at the right place at the right time. And starting this spring I'll be based back in SEA, so no more commuting.    Any more a.net get-togethers planned for Seattle?

I am pleasantly surprised to hear our CEO come out and actually talk about going places like New York, Singapore, London, Paris, etc. I've always thought that with the right planes we could do something like that, especially if we have it connect with other Asia/Australia/Pacific nations. It's a good time to be here.

HAL

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 189): It will be somewhat more modern, and more efficient, than the Trent 1000. Whether that makes it a "generation ahead", as Airbus claim, is a different matter. IMO RR themselves see the -XWB as "derivative" (as indeed they do ALL engines of the Trent family).

If it still uses bleed air, then it's not even a generation ahead of current engines.

Quoting Don81603 (Reply 192): Not really. The government uses these same formulae to figure out your payable income tax.

LOL. Yeah, that's about right.

Quoting Moo (Reply 193): A greater wing area, which Airbus is achieving through both a larger wingspan and a greater chord, improves aerodynamic efficiency significantly though lower wing loading. They are also increasing the angle of the wing, so the fact that the wingspan is as great as it is is quite significant.

So if this is a given, why do manufacturers not start off with the biggest wing they can come up with? Even if airframe growth isn't a goal, from what you've said any given plane would ultimately be far more efficient with a bigger wing. For example, the A380-800 uses the -900's wing, and this supposedly helps the efficiency of the -800. That says what about how the -900 is going to perform?

Me thinks there's a little more to it than that.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 197): If it still uses bleed air, then it's not even a generation ahead of current engines.

Better inform the engine manufacturers then, because according to them, the bleedless concept -which is far from bleedless BTW, but rather a misleading term invented by Boeing's PR department in very much the same way as the circumferencially paneled composite fuselage structure of the 787 was dubbed "monolithic", something which in view of the fasteners fiasco is a rather ironic story on itself- does not give significant efficiency improvements to the engines as such.

Boeing has since retreated to a position of 'yes, okay, but our concept will still offer customers cheaper maintenance... in the end... after enough experience has been gained... and new maintenance procedures approved... maybe.'

Whatever the benefits of bleedless vs bleeding, it will likely be in the decimals only and a more advanced bleeding engine may easily outdo an older bleedless engine of the same family, even according to RR. I would expect them to know what they are talking about?

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 182): Indeed. I think the 767 is the only Boeing designed plane they've ever operated.

Even the B717-200 doesn't count, huh?