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silentbob
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:00 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 48):
I agree that LEOs can essentially steal your money and property, but how does that relate to the TSA counting cash? A TSO is not a law-enforcement officer, and count cash is not part of their job. If they suspect a crime, they can call for a LEO to investigate. If a TSO suspects that a person is illegally transporting money, a LEO should be called and perhaps count the money, etc. If a TSO suspects that a powder is cocaine, does he/she run a test for drugs? No. He/she calls the cops.

My point was that counting cash is as much a part of a TSO's job as playing video games.

It may not be part of their job description but they can/will do it until a court tells them they can't. In reality, those court cases telling them what they can't do are the only real regulations in place and given our current supreme court makeup, it is only going to get worse for a while.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:09 pm



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 49):
They were going through the content of a passengers belongings. That is fully within the scope of their duties. Did the screener in question mouth out the amount like he was counting it or did he/she flip through, fan out the money to make sure it wasn't concealing anything illegal/dangerous.

Do you mean that the TSA was searching for contraband in the stacks of cash? What can be concealed in a stack of bills? What's next, flipping through every page in a book? Heaven forbid a page is missing.

And how does counting the bills help determine whether there's a prohibited item? Does having $3100, as opposed to say $3098, change the nature of a potential threat? No matter how absurd the situation, I can't think of any possible reason within the scope of the TSA's mission that requires actually counting the bills.
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
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RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:45 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 51):
Do you mean that the TSA was searching for contraband in the stacks of cash? What can be concealed in a stack of bills? What's next, flipping through every page in a book? Heaven forbid a page is missing.

And how does counting the bills help determine whether there's a prohibited item? Does having $3100, as opposed to say $3098, change the nature of a potential threat? No matter how absurd the situation, I can't think of any possible reason within the scope of the TSA's mission that requires actually counting the bills.

Concealed blade or knife, perhaps? Drugs?
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:54 pm

Again, ANYTHING you bring through screening is subject to search by the TSA. Complain if you wish. I have witnessed it. And I have witnessed people being escorted away. They have the authority until..

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 50):
they can/will do it until a court tells them they can't. In reality, those court cases telling them what they can't do are the only real regulations in place and given our current supreme court makeup, it is only going to get worse for a while.

Like it or not. TSA can go through anything and everything.

Who on Anet wants to be the first test case on this? Step on up.
 
Analog
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Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:34 pm



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 52):
Concealed blade or knife, perhaps? Drugs?

How does COUNTING money help find these?

Leafing through the money might help find a really thin knife blade that doesn't show up on an xray, but what does counting the money do to aid detection of prohibited items? For the life of me I can't figure any possible utility to counting money (besides finding the total amount of money).

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 53):
Like it or not. TSA can go through anything and everything.

Why should the taxpayer waste their $$ paying salary for someone not doing the job? Any TSA employee that is counting money is wasting time.
 
Zentraedi
Posts: 617
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RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:09 am



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 1):
Was it international? I know you are not allowed to take more than $10,000 out of the country without a declaration, but that seems like an issue for Customs and Immigration.

Actually, you're not really even allowed to travel anywhere domestically with more than $10,000 cash.

If you do, the police can arbitrarily seize on the suspicion of it being drug money. You won't get it back unless you go through an extremely protracted legal battle. Even then, there's no guarantee of getting your money back.

Yup, that has happened to people coming back from Vegas to NYC.
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:32 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 54):

How does COUNTING money help find these?

Leafing through the money might help find a really thin knife blade that doesn't show up on an xray, but what does counting the money do to aid detection of prohibited items? For the life of me I can't figure any possible utility to counting money (besides finding the total amount of money).

All the OP said was that they counted the money. His brother could have interpreted leafing through it as counting it. Or they could have been couting it because:

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 55):
Actually, you're not really even allowed to travel anywhere domestically with more than $10,000 cash.

If you do, the police can arbitrarily seize on the suspicion of it being drug money. You won't get it back unless you go through an extremely protracted legal battle. Even then, there's no guarantee of getting your money back.

Yup, that has happened to people coming back from Vegas to NYC.

Again, I hate power-tripping TSA agents as much as the next guy. But I also hate the idea of concealed weapons or things that can be construed as such getting on board an aircraft.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
Zentraedi
Posts: 617
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RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:12 am



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 56):

Again, I hate power-tripping TSA agents as much as the next guy. But I also hate the idea of concealed weapons or things that can be construed as such getting on board an aircraft.

How can bricks of cash be construed as a concealed weapon??

I'm not arguing that the TSA shouldn't be able to check the contents, just saying warning people that US anti-drug effectively make it illegal to carry around large sums of cash.
 
BA
Posts: 10514
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:30 am



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 10):
If there are rules on how much money you can take out of the country, than TSA (or whoever) have a right to count the money to be assured you are not breaking the law.

But how does the TSA know that you are traveling on an international flight and not a domestic one? Departures in the US are combined for both domestic and international flights. They're not separated like in some other countries.

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 15):
Actually they do... You DO have to show them your boarding pass to get through the checkpoint.

Yes, but the agent that checks your boarding pass is not the same person that conducts the security screening. The agent that conducts the security screening on you doesn't know where you're traveling.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:46 am



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 56):
All the OP said was that they counted the money. His brother could have interpreted leafing through it as counting it. Or they could have been couting it because:

It doesn't matter if transporting large sums of money is illegal. It's not the TSA's job to enforce that. If they happen to accidentally discover > $10k in cash, fine, but is there any person (other than some idiot-savants) that can instantly determine if some stack of bills is over $10k?

If a TSO suspects that a stack of bills is part of some crime, such as the crime of transporting a stack of bills without filling out the proper forms, then he/she should call a law enforcement officer to investigate.

The day the TSA starts enforcing all laws is a very dark day (it's already twilight, but that's another debate). Should a TSO start individually examining every pill to identify it, then call the physician to verify the validity of the prescription? How about making sure all credit cards in people's wallets are not stolen?
 
sasd209
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:32 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:01 am



Quoting Star_world (Reply 19):
Well how is the rest of the world different then? The US is the only first-world country I am regularly in where I see this behaviour from the average people - the look of terror in their eyes if someone in a uniform so much as looks at them.

Maybe if more people didn't put up with it they wouldn't get away with being overgrown school bullies...

lol....
I can assure you that the average US flyer is anything but terrified of these folks. The fact is, other than the TSA, the REAL law enforcement community is highly professional and capable. These guys are but a temporary inconvenience to the public and will go away as soon as their governmental backing goes. I truly hope and believe that they will be replaced by career professionals who actually let a fella get on a plane with a sandwich and find the knife their child mistakenly put in the carry-on bag.

SASD209
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:24 am



Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 57):
How can bricks of cash be construed as a concealed weapon??

By slipping some kind of small blade in between the bills? Just a possibility.

Quoting Analog (Reply 59):

I am pretty sure the TSA will search for contraband (ie, if someone comes through with drugs) they will detain that person until the police can arrive.

Again I am just stressing the possibilities.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
eghansen
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:33 pm

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:30 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 59):
It doesn't matter if transporting large sums of money is illegal. It's not the TSA's job to enforce that. If they happen to accidentally discover > $10k in cash, fine, but is there any person (other than some idiot-savants) that can instantly determine if some stack of bills is over $10k?

Actually, according to their website, it is the TSA's job to assist law enforcement in detecting any illegal activity. The following two stories were taken out of the www.tsa.gov website:

*****

BDOs SPOT More Than Just Opportunities at TSA

April 2007
Two TSOs examining the contents of a bag
BDOs Dave Bolduc (left) and Chris Davis at a Logan
checkpoint.

At Boston's Logan International Airport, Behavior Detection Officers (BDOs) David Bolduc and John Ferragamo, using behavioral cues, grew suspicious of a passenger who turned out to be carrying large and illegal amounts of prescription medication, more than $20,000 in cash and a passport belonging to another person.

At Washington Dulles International, BDO Steven Markman received information that a man had kidnapped a child and was possibly headed to the airport. Ten minutes later, Markman and two of his behavior detection colleagues spotted the man and child and kept them in sight until police arrived.

Both incidents illustrate not only the BDOs' ability to identify passengers who may represent a threat, but how the Career Progression Program has helped transportation security officers further their careers with merit-based promotions to become behavior detection officers.

"SPOT [Screening Passengers by Observation Techniques] training elevated my level of suspicion toward the passenger," Bolduc said of the incident at Logan. He became a TSO in June 2004 and earlier this year joined the behavior recognition team.

Begun in June 2003, SPOT which focuses on behavior and not physical characteristics is expected to be deployed to the nation's 40 busiest airports by the end of this year. To date, there have been thousands of referrals to law enforcement and for additional screening.

More than 500 behavior detection officers are expected to be trained by the end of 2008 many of them by Tony Mills, a former corrections officer who works at Portland (Maine) International Airport and travels the country as a behavior recognition instructor.

"My experience as a corrections officer helped me develop a sense of when someone was attempting to be deceptive," said Mills, who joined TSA in 2002 and SPOT in 2004.

Those selected for the Screening Passengers by Observation Techniques program undergo four days of classroom instruction in behavior observation and analysis, and 24 hours of on-the-job training in an airport security checkpoint environment.

Illegal immigrants have been identified through SPOT. So was a passenger carrying surveillance photos of high-risk buildings and bridges. Another more obvious intercept was of a man wearing several layers of clothing with wires extending from his sleeves to a black box he was carrying. And, in 2005 at Logan, several passengers sitting separately were seen making clandestine signs to one another, while pretending not to know each other. They later admitted to being paid $5,000 to travel between airports and observe security.

**********

Pittsburgh TSOs Help Track Thieves

News & Happenings

TSA has thwarted would-be criminals at Pittsburgh International Airport (PIT) on numerous occasions due to the diligence of transportation security officers (TSOs) at checkpoints and coordination with the PIT TSA communications center. TSA employees recently helped local police make arrests in separate incidents involving the theft of $3,900 in cash and of a laptop computer that were caught on tape at the checkpoint. Pictured at the communications center are TSO Mary Rupert and Lead TSO Brian Silver.

*****

Actually, the TSA website is filled with stories about TSA officers apprehending criminals, drug smugglers, illegal aliens, kidnappers and other illegal activity.

Also, here is a copy of the TSA policy on carrying cash through checkpoints straight from their website:

Traveling with Special Items

Currency, Coins, Precious Metals, or Valuable Jewelry

If you are carrying valuable items such as large amounts of currency, coins or jewelry, we recommend that you ask Security Officers to screen you and your carry-on luggage in private. This will maintain your security and avoid public scrutiny.

We suggest that you ask to speak with a TSA screening supervisor before you are screened. Tell the supervisor discretely that you would be screened in a private location.

TSA operating procedures require a witness to be present during private screening. The witness may be another TSA Security Officer or someone that is traveling with you.

If cleared, you and your valuables will be allowed to enter the sterile side of the airport.

We recommend that you carry these items with you at all times.

Currency Reporting: For international flights, you must report the transport of $10,000.00 USD or more to the U.S. Customs Service. Read more.

******

While it does say that you are entitled to a private inspection, it does not say that the officer is not entitled to count the money. In addition, there is a link to another page in the TSA website which specifically details the Customs regulation concerning taking large amounts of currency in and out of the country.

In essence, if you read through their website, it states clearly that TSA officers not only can screen passengers for weapons, but are considered to be assistants to law enforcement and are trained to profile passengers. You can find out more at the page referenced below which is entitled "Assisting Law Enforcement".

http://www.tsa.gov/who_we_are/workforce/law_enforcement.shtm
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:04 am



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 62):
Actually, according to their website, it is the TSA's job to assist law enforcement in detecting any illegal activity. The following two stories were taken out of the www.tsa.gov website:

If they suspect a crime, they report it to a LEO (and take credit if the hunch was correct). That's how it should be. LEOs are loafing around the terminals for a reason. The TSA should not be doing the investigation itself. Of course if there's an imminent threat, then all bets are off. $10,000 only posses a threat to a poor mans ego.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 61):
I am pretty sure the TSA will search for contraband (ie, if someone comes through with drugs) they will detain that person until the police can arrive.

They'll open all my pill containers, check the pills, lok them up in a pill-ID table to verify that they are what's described on the bottle, and then call the pharmacy to check if the prescription is real? Of course even if it isn't, TSA policy is to do nothing unless the drugs are liquid (ALARM. BRAVO BRAVO). Then I'll walk through with a 1000 count container of generic APAP and wait a hour while every pill is identified?

Give me a break.
 
eghansen
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:33 pm

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:12 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 63):
If they suspect a crime, they report it to a LEO (and take credit if the hunch was correct). That's how it should be. LEOs are loafing around the terminals for a reason. The TSA should not be doing the investigation itself. Of course if there's an imminent threat, then all bets are off. $10,000 only posses a threat to a poor mans ego.

It is possible that TSA should not be doing any investigations themselves, but it does help pass the time of day in what otherwise must be a very boring job. And it makes the TSA person feel SOOOOOOO important.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:51 pm



Quoting N766UA (Reply 17):



It's not like they tried to confiscate it, so what? Let the TSA count your money, be done with their little power trip, and be on your way. Heck, you could hide a blade or a packet of something in a stack of cash... if it's in your carry on they have a right to check it.

And slowly but surely we let the government take more and more and more of our personal freedoms, what will we have left in this country in 15-20 years. Fear is the tool that this government is using to turn the US into a police state.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:11 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 63):

They'll open all my pill containers, check the pills, lok them up in a pill-ID table to verify that they are what's described on the bottle, and then call the pharmacy to check if the prescription is real? Of course even if it isn't, TSA policy is to do nothing unless the drugs are liquid (ALARM. BRAVO BRAVO). Then I'll walk through with a 1000 count container of generic APAP and wait a hour while every pill is identified?

Give me a break.

Within reason, they will look to find contraband...obviously the above is not within reason.
They also probably wouldn't test a suspicious white powder to verify that it is indeed illegal. They'd hand it over to a LEO that would handle the investigation.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 826
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:25 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:55 pm



Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 9):
Sometimes the guys with way too much cash know way too much about bombs and knives. If you're so ticked off, file a complaint with someone.

And sometimes the guys with socks between their feet and their shoes hijack planes...what's your point?

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 18):
Tell that to the woman who died under TSA custody in Phoenix. Or the man the airport police shot dead in Miami. Or the man tasered to death in Canada.

Saying "I have a bomb in my bag" is slightly different than stating your rights, is it not?

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 33):
If you tell me that TSA gate agents are all high school dropouts (or people of lesser mental caliber), you're perpetuating a false stereotype.

I'll hand it to you that many TSA screeners are very professional and intelligent (especially at RIC, they're rather pleasant there), but there are definitely some not to smart power-trippers out there. Not many people with a Harvard diploma want to work for peanuts getting harassed and putting on a giant puppet show.


"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -Ben Franklin
.
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2267
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: TSA - Question On $$$

Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:20 pm



Quoting Luisca (Reply 65):
And slowly but surely we let the government take more and more and more of our personal freedoms, what will we have left in this country in 15-20 years. Fear is the tool that this government is using to turn the US into a police state.

That's why they call it terrorism. So, what you just layed out is accomplished. Too bad for us.

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