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sam1987
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:00 pm



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 42):
You are on drugs right?

Nope. How many other capital city hubs have two airlines flying an extensive domestic network? LHR only needs one carrier to do that - and that's BA. The competition commission shouldn't interfere because there's plenty of other competition (the remaining four London airports, rail and coach).

Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 45):
For anyone looking to go from Leeds to London I think it is indeed safe to say train is miles better. I'm pretty sure fast services take 2 hours 20 mins? And the GNER 225s/'Mallards' or whatever they refer to them as now are a decent experience.

Quite right - which is why BD can't compete. It's just a shame for those who don't live in Central London who are forced to carry their luggage on the tube from Kings Cross. I say LBA needs a service to LGW!

Quoting Shankly (Reply 48):
Always found it amusing that if 09R was in use at LHR one would spend circa 45 minutes taxiing from the T1 gate to the holding point and then 35 minutes in the air.

Absolutely - it is just silly.

I'd be surprised if BD's LBA-LHR route lasts beyond March 2008. Sir Michael Bishop is using LBA airport charges as an excuse - the route just isn't bringing in the passengers anymore, which is a shame.
Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
 
tealema
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:01 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:05 am

What are the chances that National Express make a complete hash of the ECML franchise today? - They took it over about 5mins ago. Its unlikely I know, they ran Midland Mainline well enough. Anyway say they did, would people return to bmi on LBA-LHR - suppose not, all the security rubbish will keep people away me thinks.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:09 am

Yep, a sad but true reality.

The fact is that domestic services ex-Heathrow these days have to be pretty big in order to justify their existence and, more importantly, justify the continued use of their slots.

Because the U.K. is insistent on driving their most important air hub into the ground, and is apparently actively seeking to give business to Amsterdam, Frankfurt and Paris, this is the natural result: more and more regions service to Heathrow will continue to be cut to make way for more valuable and profitable longhaul service using Heathrow's incredibly precious slots. It's only logical - why use a slot (good for an A319 or a 747) on a 60-minute (or less?) flight to LBA, when you could use it for a 10-hour flight to Hong Kong, etc.?

If the U.K. wants to have more and more of its regional markets connected to its only real global hub - and Heathrow - and not flowing traffic increasingly over Amsterdam, etc., there is one and only one solution: Heathrow has to be expanded. That means more terminals and more runways. And that means now. Not next week, nor next month, nor 20 years from now. That means now.

Every day that goes by, Heathrow continues to lose more and more of its competitive edge - not just in the regions, but in the world.

So sad.
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:17 am

Commavia

It is refreshing to get the viewpoint of someone "looking in" from the outside, and sadly it reflects the view I hear so often on board, one which I empathise with completely.

Our hallowed leader once said if he took over BMI, domestics would be slashed. That was in the days when he had a major chunk of the western UK's rail system in his name. Now that he has lost the cross-country franchise, I wonder now how he plans to get UK travellers down to LHR for his long haul services.

Shamu
Flying around India
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:25 am



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 53):
It is refreshing to get the viewpoint of someone "looking in" from the outside, and sadly it reflects the view I hear so often on board, one which I empathise with completely.

It's just so sad for an anglophile like me who loves Britain and British people so deeply, and has for so long. Britain is such a wonderful country - my favorite on earth after my homeland.

It thus makes it all the harder when I have to watch - year and after year - the prestige and standing of the U.K. in the international air travel industry decline further and further.

Heathrow - as is - is not going to do. It just isn't. Period. End of story.

When T5 opens next year, that will open up new gates in a lot of the other terminals, especially T1 and T4. That's great. Now we need to lay down more runways - at least one (I'd prefer two).

We don't need 20 more years of endless discussion about the runway, followed by another generation's worth of evaluation of the discussion, to be proceeded by the period of public comment on the discussion of the evaluation. This is just ridiculous! Just build the frigging runway(s) already.

Then - and only then will Heathrow truly be competitive.

As I've said here on and on other threads - I have no (sadly) become convinced that the British government is now actively trying to help competing European hubs like AMS, FRA and CDG. That is the only conclusion I can come to - since the British government seems insistent on making sure that Heathrow is not at all competitive.
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:22 am

And Britain needs to get its act together and start building a domestic high speed rail network with a spur line to LHR. It is just pathetic that there is no direct train from Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester to LHR with runtimes of an hour and a bit.

The country begins to pay the price for neglecting its public infrastructure for some decades...
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1789
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:57 am



Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 41):
And see them axe a load more domestic services to use the slots for long haul flights and increase fares due to lack of competetion... that makes a lot of sense!

I don't think so... If they could take over BMI, they will reduce frequencies on some duplicate routes and keep the regions served. Services to AMS and BRU would go and will be replaced by longhaul routes. As for the prices, I don't think they will go up. Check the LHR-NCL routes. BA is the only one serving the route and thus have a monopoly there : the prices are comparable to those of EDI, GLA or MAN. BA is competing with BD, EZY and AF on domestic routes.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
adriaticflight
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:43 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:52 am

I believe routes like this shouldn't be allowed to fly! With all the talk of global warming it just doesn't make sense to fly a route of that distance. People in Leeds/Liverpool and elsewhere should just get on a bus/train and go to Manchester or London to fly. Britain is very small and the only domestic flights that should be permitted are ones that can't be done faster by public transport. For example to london-aberdeen or Inverness and of course flights to all the islands.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 55):
And Britain needs to get its act together and start building a domestic high speed rail network with a spur line to LHR.

Its a shame that people in the UK are rather resistant to paying the higher taxes required to pay for these kind of things.

I believe most domestic flights should be slowly withdrawn, and a distinct emphasis placed on public transport. Heathrow is London's global hub, the "regions" can connect via Amsterdam or Paris or elsewhere, whats wrong with that? It frees up space at Heathrow for international flights.
 
David_itl
Posts: 6408
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:24 pm



Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 57):
Britain is very small and the only domestic flights that should be permitted are ones that can't be done faster by public transport.

Aren't practically all of the domestic services that use LHR (and the other London airports) quicker than public transport? Or are you tagging in the check-in and security as well. It sounds terrible to say this, but all it takes is for some nutters to decide that if they can't blow up planes, they'll do trains instead and we'll have all manner of chaos with regards to enhanced security at train stations which would hand any perceived time-saving back to the airlines.

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 57):
Heathrow is London's global hub, the "regions" can connect via Amsterdam or Paris or elsewhere, whats wrong with that? It frees up space at Heathrow for international flights.

Ask BA or BD whether they themselves or thier partner airlines would prefer to have UK domestic services feeding onto their networks, or if they want the money handed over to AF, KL, etc. Or do you want these airlines to start more services out of the regions....something thsat some of them are unwilling to do.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:25 pm



Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 57):
I believe most domestic flights should be slowly withdrawn, and a distinct emphasis placed on public transport. Heathrow is London's global hub, the "regions" can connect via Amsterdam or Paris or elsewhere, whats wrong with that? It frees up space at Heathrow for international flights.

Try getting from Leeds to LHR by public transport" Lets say I want to get on the EI725 to ORK, it departs from T1 at 22:10. I could take BD419 from LBA, it leaves at 18:40, I'll need to be at the airport at 18:00, so take the 17:00 service to LBA, Ill arrive at LHR at 19:30, or so. 2.5hrs (and it would be shorter if I drove myself - or I could relax in the lounge at LBA if I so wished)

By train....I would need to make a minimum of two connections, and according to the timetable leave a full hour earlier to get to LHR at the same SCHEDULED time as BD419, however to leave more time in a multiple change journey might be wise. Shortest train journey, 3.30.

SO for nnward connections, the plane wins, for a trip to London, GNER wins. It boils down to this, is there enough connecting traffic from Leeds to justify the service? If not, can connectivity be maintained with just 2 or 3 flights a day? My guess is it could.

Brian.
 
ba757
Posts: 2707
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:44 pm

I don't see the big deal myself, and this is true of MAN as well. Why would you want to connect in LHR? It's a nightmare, and not only that, the shuttle can be rediciolus expensive (especially in BA's case) with the taxes and surcharges.

I know many people - including myself - who simply don't bother with LHR/LGW anymore and just use AMS or CDG instead. Transferring in AMS is hassle free, admittedly CDG can be a bit of a pain, but not on the level that LHR is.

With KL serving LBA well enough, and KL/AF serving MAN very well (remember its only an hour away), why would you really want to use LHR?

If you need to go to central London, the train from Leeds or Manchester is the obvious choice - it isn't nice at times on the train, but then neither is LHR...
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:12 pm



Quoting BA757 (Reply 60):
Why would you want to connect in LHR? It's a nightmare, and not only that, the shuttle can be rediciolus expensive (especially in BA's case) with the taxes and surcharges.

Well said!

I'm also with you about taking the train for central London. Yes I've seen the Pendolino's wedged to the brim but I can get a Saver Return for just £40 (with a YP Railcard discount) which means I can travel back at any time within 28 days of travelling out AND there is an off-peak hourly frequency from Wigan, and it also costs nothing to reserve a seat.

Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 50):

Nope. How many other capital city hubs have two airlines flying an extensive domestic network? LHR only needs one carrier to do that - and that's BA. The competition commission shouldn't interfere because there's plenty of other competition (the remaining four London airports, rail and coach).

You missed the point. What you are proposing is that BA takes over all LHR-UK regions flights from BD, and considering BA's track record with the regions it wouldn't be a surprise if they axed many of the BD flights within 6 months for stuff like it isn't profitable. Therefore to have BA do all LHR-UK regions flights is madness and something that won't go down well.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:28 pm



Quoting BA757 (Reply 60):
Why would you want to connect in LHR? It's a nightmare, and not only that, the shuttle can be rediciolus expensive (especially in BA's case) with the taxes and surcharges.

I would have to disagree with you here. LHR is no worse than any other large hub. They are all a pain in the arse, IMHO. All of them involve walking, delays, excessively priced food options and hit or miss sanitary facilities.

LHR is not co-located in one terminal, granted, like AMS is, and it is overcrowded, and it is shabby, but its a hell of a lot better than many of the American airports I have had the misfortune to use, EWR and JFK especially. CDG is no palace either, let me remind you. AMS is about the best, but some claim walking distances are too far. Even airports with unlimited space to expand, DXB for instance are still delay prone.

No airport is perfect, but LHR is not the cesspit that people here would have us believe. Id rather it to MAN T3, EWR, DXB any day. ANd the taxes are not BA/BD's fault. Blame the tree huggers for that. So as long as I can continue to use the LBA-LHR service I will.

Brian.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:39 pm



Quoting BA757 (Reply 60):
Why would you want to connect in LHR? It's a nightmare

But that's just it - it doesn't have to be.

Heathrow could be - and should be - the preeminent air hub for Europe, and one of the most efficient and organized hubs on earth. Unfortunately, years of under-investment and mismanagement have left it a pathetic excuse for an airport, and more like a big shopping mall more than anything else.

Terminal 5 will help - as it will definitely improve the travel experience for the plurality of LHR's customers (on BA). Plus, after the big shuffle next year following the opening of Terminal 5, lots of other terminals will get upgraded, too. That's good. But it still doesn't address many of the "chaos" problems related to too many passengers traveling through too little space.

And, as for the runways - that's a whole different story. Heathrow shouldn't have two runways. It should have three. At least. I'd be happier with four, but I'd settle for three. It's just ridiculous that one of the busiest airports on earth is so artificially constrained because of a narrow constituency of people who are holding up the economic progress of an entire country. Pathetic.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 62):
LHR is no worse than any other large hub.

I guess I've been using a different Heathrow than you!  Smile

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 62):
but its a hell of a lot better than many of the American airports I have had the misfortune to use, EWR and JFK especially

From my experience, I can count on one hand the number of terminals in the U.S. that I think are worse - more overcrowded, old, crappy, run-down, dirty - than Heathrow. There aren't many.
 
BMED
Posts: 722
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:01 pm

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:49 am



Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 57):
I believe most domestic flights should be slowly withdrawn, and a distinct emphasis placed on public transport. Heathrow is London's global hub, the "regions" can connect via Amsterdam or Paris or elsewhere, whats wrong with that? It frees up space at Heathrow for international flights.

But if your creating more international flights at LHR then who are they for as the people from the UK will be connecting onto long haul flights through AMS or CDG as you have said.

In general I fly home from EDI-LHR as its generally cheaper than the train. Although I don't reallu save any time I always feel less stressed than been stuck on a crowded train unless its the sleeper. I hope bmi keep their domestic network cause I enjoy flying with them and maybe they could expand their regional product to provide the flights.
Living the jetset life! No better way to be
 
02hilliert
Posts: 479
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:52 pm

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:29 am

i just booked one-way LBA-LHR for late March, hope the service is still operating then, or i will be less than pleased! i'm booked on BD421, is that ERJ.135 or ERJ.145 operated?
Next Up: Back to the US - Charlotte & Kansas City
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:34 am



Quoting 02hilliert (Reply 65):
i'm booked on BD421, is that ERJ.135 or ERJ.145 operated?

Usually a 135 I think.

Brian.
 
sam1987
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:10 pm

Have a look at this press release from LBA:

http://www.lbia.co.uk/newsandupdates-newsstory.php?storyid=20071217

"bmi celebrates 27 years of Yorkshire connections to London" - what's so special about 27?!

It looks like LBA are trying desperately to keep the BD link to LHR.
Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

RE: Bmi LHR-LBA Service Under Threat

Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:05 pm



Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 67):

"bmi celebrates 27 years of Yorkshire connections to London" - what's so special about 27?!

It looks like LBA are trying desperately to keep the BD link to LHR.

27 years is a weird number to celebrate. You would think they would've done it after 25, 30, 40, 50 years etc.

I get the same impression as you though.

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