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gilesdavies
Topic Author
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UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:04 pm

Just been reading how several UK airlines are choosing to fly the long way from the UK to the Canary Islands off the North West coast of Africa.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7124021.stm

It has been revealed in the press that Monarch Airlines and Thomas Cook choose to fly the whole route from UK airspace out over the Atlantic Ocean flying west of France, Spain and Portugal to purposely avoid their airspace and having to pay fees to them. Flying over the Atlantic add an additional 100-150 miles on to the route, but airlines say it is more economical to fly the longer route, than pay ATC charges to these countries. Also they are less prone to any delays over the Atlantic as they fly over quieter airspace.

The average flying time to the Canaries is 3hr 57mins, when flying the direct route and 4hr 17mins when they route westerly over the Atlantic.

I'm not really sure if this is news, and for all I know it may happen all the time in other parts of the world... But here in the UK, in recent months the airline industry has been getting bad press for the impact to the environment and this does not really help their cause.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:18 pm

Well if its cheaper for them then fair enough, they have a business to run its just a shame that french/spanish atc makes it difficult for them to be green.

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jcavinato
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:23 pm

I've always been curious about such ATC fees. How much would they be? Are some countries higher, lower? Does anyone know of any examples of such fees?
 
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speedygonzales
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:28 pm

I've heard that airlines sometimes avoid UK airspace for the same reason. We seemed to do that when I flew AMS-LAX on KLM in October 2003. We initially flew pretty straight north, and only turned west after we had cleared UK.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
baw217
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:43 pm

I work in flight operations, and I'm not surprised!

Routing the the "tango routes" which are Airways U/T9 and 7 (there are more tango airways than the 2 I have mentioned) can be quicker (I've flied flightplans via those airways because it was a quicker route), but are defiantly cheaper to operate via.

Routing via Spain and Portugal is normally quicker, but is more expensive (overflight costs), and en-route ATC delays can be high, especially in the Summer.

Tango Routes are very popular when the French are on strike!


Airlines are running a business, most flightplanning systems can be set to operate a flight at "minimum cost". Most airlines (who don't use RPL's) have "company routes" severlal hours before the flight operates, they run the flightplan, with expected loads and then find the cheapest route, and file it with the respective en-route ATC control centres. Airline Operations will use there common sence if the cheapest route is excessivly long, which would theaten the aircrafts schedule.

Cheers
 
ACEregular
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:55 pm

I remember flying to Tenerife from Manchester about five years ago and we routed out over Ireland and straight down, it was just under four hours. With good winds the slight detour should not really cause much of a problem, more airtime anyway.
 
mhodgson
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:57 pm

I think it's a total non-story to be honest; purely to jump on the whole carbon emissions bandwagon.

People had never heard of carbon emissions two years ago!
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
 
B747forever
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:10 pm

So, when they wrote this article, did they really think that airlines will stop to use the tango route???
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
ikramerica
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:25 pm

Airlines do the same thing over here to avoid overflying Mexico. And that's purely for cost, not due to potential traffic delays.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
callumm92
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:34 pm



Quoting B747forever (Reply 7):
So, when they wrote this article, did they really think that airlines will stop to use the tango route???

Doubt it. They're there to make money, and the media aren't going to change that with a small story like this. IMO, they're making a big deal out of very little.
 
Ryanair737
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Isl

Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:48 pm

This routing has been going on for just over 2 years now from Manchester to/from the Canaries, I'm suprised the climate change brigade has not brought it up earlier than it has done.

Going to/from the Canaries, it is possible to avoid France, Spain and largely Portugal by flying on a "Tango" route, airways T16 etc. which are Oceanic airways. It is a longer flight time and therefore burns more fuel but saves on nav charges. Of course the airlines are keen to do this - the passengers are none the wiser, just that Joe Bloggs looking out of the window might wonder why he is passing Dublin when he's off to Lanzarote.

It only seems to be Thomsonfly and First Choice who regularly choose to go the normal routing from Manchester to/from the Canaries.

The nav charges are actually based on MTOW of the aircraft in question.

[Edited 2007-12-03 08:56:21]
LAST FLIGHTS= Ryanair LPL-BGY-LPL - EI-DPS/DWV - MAY 08 // NEXT FLIGHTS= TBC
 
BooDog
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:55 pm



Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 6):
I think it's a total non-story to be honest; purely to jump on the whole carbon emissions bandwagon.

People had never heard of carbon emissions two years ago!

More carbon emissions are the result of more fuel being burned; the cost of fuel has been around for much longer than two years.
B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
 
Endair2000
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Isl

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:09 pm

I flew with First Choice to Gran Canaria a year ago and thought it was strange when we routed over Ireland. However it didn't make much difference to the flight time. Can't believe its made the headlines really, what will those Carbon Footprint dopes moan off next?
 
Leezyjet
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:26 pm

There has been a thread running on pprune about this with the journalist who wrote it digging for info and basically being blown apart by the pilots on there giving perfectly valid reasons for using them.

These journalists should stick to reporting on topics they might actually know something about, like Mrs Jones' cat being stuck up a tree. They might be able to get their facts correct on a simple story like that. It's worrying to think if they can be so innaccurate about this industry, which we know about, how innacurate are they about things we don't know much about !!!.

 eyepopping 
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irobertson
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:58 pm



Quoting BooDog (Reply 11):
More carbon emissions are the result of more fuel being burned; the cost of fuel has been around for much longer than two years.

Certainly a heck of a lot less carbon emissions now than from the days of the 707 and Convairs, etc...
 
acelanzarote
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:40 pm



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 13):
These journalists should stick to reporting on topics they might actually know something about, like Mrs Jones' cat being stuck up a tree. They might be able to get their facts correct on a simple story like that. It's worrying to think if they can be so innaccurate about this industry, which we know about, how innacurate are they about things we don't know much about !!!.

Very well said,  checkmark 

Must be a slow news day so more rubbish gets blown up into a mountain!
from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
 
Orion737
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:45 pm

This has happened to me on TCX flights to LPA from EMA several times. Now I know the reason. Its a pain, making a longish flight in a cramped plane even longer.
 
Barnesy2006
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:31 pm

I've flown to the Canaries many many times over the years and not once have i routed over Africa. The only time i came close was flying to Fuerteventura. Tenerife, Gran Canaria in my experience have always routed out over the Atlantic as i believe it is the shortest distance. Its not just TCX, MON that do it every carrier in my experience does it.
 
Orion737
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Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:14 pm

RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:36 pm

It did add on 20 mins to the advertised flight time on TCX. Very odd as I thought they would fly shortest routing possible for fuel saving.
 
MSYPI7185
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:03 pm

This is a non-issue IMO. Adding 20 minutes to flight time, is nothing. Unless weather conditions are optimal, ATC patterns, spacing etc, can easily add this amount of time to any flight going into a major airport.

Don't even get me started on the carbon emissions aspect. The people who are worried the most about this are the ones who fight the airports and the airlines to the death over improvements that ultimately would reduce carbon emissions.

Just the ignorance of the media again at its best, making news out of nothing!
 
sam1987
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:11 pm



Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 6):
I think it's a total non-story to be honest; purely to jump on the whole carbon emissions bandwagon.

 checkmark   checkmark 
Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
 
Jet2Leeds
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:23 pm

I saw the report and one of the justifications for using airways over sea is that usually they can get the altitude they want, surely if they fly at what? 33,000- 35,000 feet they would be burning less fuel and thus 'polluting' less because of something technical yadda yadda. EnvironMENTALISTs are becoming a far too large and powerful interest group. First prove that humans are the major contributor to CO2 and global warming then lets talk, global warming is a theory yet everyone talks about it like its a fact. I remember a conversation with my uncle where he told me that about thirty years or so, everyone was freaking out about a new ice age! Sorry if I went off on a tangent/rant but this stuff really annoys me.
 
CXH
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Isl

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:22 pm



Quoting SpeedyGonzales (Reply 3):
I've heard that airlines sometimes avoid UK airspace for the same reason.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Airlines do the same thing over here to avoid overflying Mexico. And that's purely for cost, not due to potential traffic delays.

Indeed, lots of countries have different 'overflight' charges. The FAA charges carriers that overfly American airspace but do not land at a U.S. airport. The rate charged per pax by Canadian charters / tour operators is $6. (that's $12 return). Since lots of Canadians fly to Mexico and Caribbean countries non-stop on vacations, it adds up.
I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
 
Viscount724
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:17 am



Quoting CXH (Reply 22):
Indeed, lots of countries have different 'overflight' charges.

Details on Canadian (NavCanada) charges here.
http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefin...ocharges/Customer_Guide_New_en.pdf

Several examples of typical charges for various types of flights and aircraft types starting on page 35 of the PDF. Depends on aircraft type, distance flown under NavCanada control, and whether there is a departure from a Canadian airport. Approximate totals (round trip in CA$):

747-400 SEA-LHR-SEA: $5416
A330-300 JFK-FRA-JFK: $1756
A340-300 YVR-HKG-YVR: $3270
777-300: YUL-CDG-YUL: $4914
A320: YYZ-LAX-YYZ: $859
CRJ: YOW-DCA-YOW: $292
A319: YYC-YVR-YYC; $1757
737-700: YYZ-YWG-YYZ: $2183
 
bohica
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RE: UK Airlines Fly The Long Way To The Canary Islands

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:59 pm



Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Just been reading how several UK airlines are choosing to fly the long way from the UK to the Canary Islands off the North West coast of Africa.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7...1.stm

It must be a slow news day at BBC.

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