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RAFVC10
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Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:20 pm

Hi all,

read in an Spanish magazine that Iberia will add in few weeks a pair of Airbus A330-300 from Garuda Indonesia that are actually stored at CGK.

These will fly the Madrid - Canary Islands routes.

Questions: these planes will be leased or bought from GA? Who will operate these planes. Air Atlanta, Audeli or Iberia?

Heard that these will be the first two to be added at the IB fleet awaiting three more that will be add in 2008.

Has anyone there that can solve my doubts?

Regards,

Gerard
El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
 
Burkhard
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:36 pm

A340-300 for Madrid - Canary Islands routes.

OK for christmas over capacity, but an aircraft that is perfect for MAD - Chile is not good for the Canaries.
 
charlipr
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:39 pm



Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):
A340-300 for Madrid - Canary Islands routes

NOTE: He said A330-300, and not A340-300. Currently IB does not operate that aircraft.
 
CV990
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:41 pm

Hi!

Well I remember that at one point IB had 743's flying that route and then the 744's right? This might be a new trend....but I seriously think that IB could have a bunch of A330's flying in their network, specially in their North American network... a "blend" of A330-200's + A330-300's would be perfect but...they can also take the A350 in a near future!
Regards
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RayChuang
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:02 pm

Wouldn't the A330-300 be better suited for flights from MAD/BCN to LHR, CDG, FRA, and other major European cities?
 
gigneil
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:09 pm

Well, they currently fly the A340-600 and -300 to those islands as well as the Azores from time to time, and the A330-300 is perfect for those routes since they do need the capacity.

NS
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:10 pm

Does the A333 have the legs to do BOG/CCS/HAV/MEX/GRU/GIG non-stop from MAD? For scheduling purposes I wonder if it is possible. The A333 is probably the most efficient aircraft flying right now for high traffic MD-Canaries routes I would say.

Also - given that IB dont have any experience with ETOPS maintained planes, what changes will they need to their MX infrastructure?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
mestrugo
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:35 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
Does the A333 have the legs to do BOG/CCS/HAV/MEX/GRU/GIG non-stop from MAD? For scheduling purposes I wonder if it is possible. The A333 is probably the most efficient aircraft flying right now for high traffic MD-Canaries routes I would say.

Also - given that IB dont have any experience with ETOPS maintained planes, what changes will they need to their MX infrastructure?

I think the A333 could fly easily those legs, it's kinda within the aircraft range. Of course, IB should apply for an ETOPS cert, but I think that, if they think it worths the try, they could give it a try and see if they're more efficient than their A340s.

The LPA-MAD and TFS-MAD routes are perfectly able to fill several daily A333s, too. If you live in the Canary Islands, the government actually pays part of your ticket.
 
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Aisak
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:39 pm



Quoting RAFVC10 (Thread starter):
Questions: these planes will be leased or bought from GA? Who will operate these planes. Air Atlanta, Audeli or Iberia?

I don't think IB own any new planes. They just have the planes leased. From the operating point of view, it would make sense to have Audeli operating these frame. Adding 330-300 to their A340 widebody fleet only adds complexity. If Audeli take care of the 330s IB will have the capacity, without any change in their fleet.

Audeli had the ability to operate up to 7 757-200 mainly for the MAD-BCN shuttle service. Now all the 757s will be gone soon i think they can operate up to 5 340-300 for IB under the current Sepla agreement (pilots union).

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):
A340-300 for Madrid - Canary Islands routes.

OK for christmas over capacity, but an aircraft that is perfect for MAD - Chile is not good for the Canaries.

Actually widebodies are very important for Canaries - Mainland Spain routes not only because of passengers but also for cargo. Traditionally 747-400 operated by Air Atlanta, 340-300 flown by Audeli and even 340-300 and -600 from IB have been scheduled for short hops to increase the fleet use ratio. Now there is lack of planes for IB (bear in mind the recent UIO incident), they might need all 340 flying transatlantic.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 4):
Wouldn't the A330-300 be better suited for flights from MAD/BCN to LHR, CDG, FRA, and other major European cities?

Well, as better suited as for the canaries routes. Widebodies are usually sent to these places when there is a huge demand or there is a service disruption (fog at LHR, football world championship in Germany...). As I said above. The Canaries have a year-round demand for both people and cargo.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 5):
Well, they currently fly the A340-600 and -300 to those islands as well as the Azores from time to time

mmm Azores are not served by IB

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
Also - given that IB dont have any experience with ETOPS maintained planes, what changes will they need to their MX infrastructure?

Should they? I mean.. even CRJs fly mainland-Canaries. Aslo 320, 320 and even MD's. All of them are twins... i don't see how 2 330 need a speacial treatment from a short hop down there (2 hours flight time)
 
rojo
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:04 pm



Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):
A340-300 for Madrid - Canary Islands routes.

OK for christmas over capacity, but an aircraft that is perfect for MAD - Chile is not good for the Canaries.



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 4):
Wouldn't the A330-300 be better suited for flights from MAD/BCN to LHR, CDG, FRA, and other major European cities?

We have to consider the fact that IB has one A340-600 out of service and they used to fly both, the A343 and A346 to the Canary Islands due to its long haul fleet planning, therefore, they need to bring more long haul aircraft to cover for this temporary shortage... In IB's long haul fleet planning strategy, whenever an A340 has technical problems (operational disruption), IB immediately swaps the plane flying to the Canary Islands to cover for its intercontinental network and avoids major disruptions to its long haul fleet. Flights to the Canary Islands are then cover with two A320's, one B757 or whatever IB Operations has available (depending on flight loads). Therefore, it is not a waste to send an A340 to the Canary Islands, it is all part of IB's long haul fleet strategy.

Now, the A330 could fit well in the Canary Island operations and on flights to Havana, Puerto Rico, Panama, etc. that do not need a big and fancy Business Class product (unless IB retrofits these aircraft with the new Business Intercontinental).
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:15 pm



Quoting Aisak (Reply 8):
Adding 330-300 to their A340 widebody fleet only adds complexity

Yeah but the fuel savings on three or four daily MAD-TFS rotations will be very compelling - the A343 is not a good plane to be flying 3hr segments with as you are aware. The A333 is so superior in terms of fuel burn over short flights - it weighs an awful lot less than the A343.

Quoting Aisak (Reply 8):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
Also - given that IB dont have any experience with ETOPS maintained planes, what changes will they need to their MX infrastructure?

Should they? I mean.. even CRJs fly mainland-Canaries. Aslo 320, 320 and even MD's. All of them are twins... i don't see how 2 330 need a speacial treatment from a short hop down there (2 hours flight time)

I was thinking in case IB decide they want to send the birds to South America or the Caribbean - ETOPS restraints will determine routings. Depends on where they are flying to of course!

Quoting Rojo (Reply 9):
they used to fly both, the A343 and A346 to the Canary Islands due to its long haul fleet planning,

Its a very good idea actually - the A340s do some v long segments and a quick six hour round trip to the Canaries increases utilisation a great deal - it works out nicely for them actually. Their A340s are some of the hardest working anywhere in the world. I have always said they could use a subfleet of four or five A380s - they would make money on them just flying them to and from the Canaries but I also think Buenos Aires and Mexico City would do well with them.

Quoting Aisak (Reply 8):
Now there is lack of planes for IB (bear in mind the recent UIO incident), they might need all 340 flying transatlantic.

Agreed - the skeds will have been re-jigged and they would obviously prefer to re-spot the lack of capacity to destinations which can be served by other members of the fleet - narrowbodies if necessary.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:19 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
Does the A333 have the legs to do BOG/CCS/HAV/MEX/GRU/GIG non-stop from MAD?

Doubtful as these are i believe NOT A333X. Even the 333X would likely be too short. The equivalent aircraft for such routes is named the A343!
When I doubt... go running!
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:26 pm



Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 11):
Doubtful as these are i believe NOT A333X.

These are A330-341.

Range with 335 pax and reserves 8340km (4500nm) with CF6s, or 8430km (4550nm) with P&W engines, or 8600km (4640nm) with Trents. Source
 
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Fyano773
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:30 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
I also think Buenos Aires and Mexico City would do well with them

I think these A330-300 would be restricted in the MEX-MAD because of the altitude; About EZE, range vs payload is an issue. The A330-200 is better suited for either of them.

Fyano
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:35 pm



Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 12):
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 11):
Doubtful as these are i believe NOT A333X.

These are A330-341.

Range with 335 pax and reserves 8340km (4500nm) with CF6s, or 8430km (4550nm) with P&W engines, or 8600km (4640nm) with Trents. Source

The Garuda birds are Trent-powered I think, so 4650nm. CCS is 4356 mi which is 3784 nm - easy. BOG, GRU, GIG etc all well within reach. I suspect the fuel burn for the outer limits of the range curve on the A333 would see the A343 be more efficient before you get to CCS though.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:41 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
The Garuda birds are Trent-powered I think

Indeed, the 4 in -341 is for RR-engines.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
CCS is 4356 mi which is 3784 nm - easy. BOG, GRU, GIG etc all well within reach.

NM used to operate a single A330-301 on South American routes like EZE and SCL, but according to some of the picture on the site, they were doing a fuel stop at SSA.
 
RAFVC10
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:42 pm

The registration of the aircrafts that will join in few weeks Iberia fleet are PK-GPC and PK-GPD.

PK-GPC was delivered to Garuda on December 1996 and PK-GPD in January 1997. Both are configured in C24Y251.

Heard that other Airbus A330-300's from Garuda will join the Iberia fleet in 2008.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 3):
Well I remember that at one point IB had 743's flying that route and then the 744's right?

Yes, you're right. Boeing 747-300's were used mainly on Canary Islands, Miami and New York Kennedy routes. Add, too, that one of this Boeing 747-300 is still operating under Spanish flag with Pullmantur Air.

Regards,

Gerard
El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:11 pm

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 15):
NM used to operate a single A330-301 on South American routes like EZE and SCL, but according to some of the picture on the site, they were doing a fuel stop at SSA.

301s are less capable birds I think, and even with the X, I would think EZE would be a very dodgy proposition non-stop, more so coming back.

SCL is very high and I think there are engine-out limitations there - I'd be surprised if the 301 could get out of there to MAD with enough fuel to go non-stop.

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 16):
Heard that other Airbus A330-300's from Garuda will join the Iberia fleet in 2008.

Shame to see such a marvelous airline not use their most capable birds. Only flown them once and they were absolutely magic - really friendly and welcoming.

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 16):
Yes, you're right. Boeing 747-300's were used mainly on Canary Islands, Miami and New York Kennedy routes. Add, too, that one of this Boeing 747-300 is still operating under Spanish flag with Pullmantur Air.

...and very fine looking birds they were too.



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[Edited 2007-12-03 11:12:26]
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
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LTU932
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:21 pm



Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 15):
NM used to operate a single A330-301 on South American routes like EZE and SCL, but according to some of the picture on the site, they were doing a fuel stop at SSA.

NM frequently operated MAD-SJO with their sole A333 nonstop, but it must have come either weight restricted, or they made a stop somewhere every now and then. However the SJO-MAD sector was always operated with a scheduled fuelstop in PTY, even though it was flying east and thus would have a decent tailwind.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Pu752
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:03 am

I think the A330 could perfectly fit the MAD-MVD route.....I think that its the only South American city not receiving daily service and the size could be properly for the route 4x weekly.
 
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PM
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:30 am

So we can assume that Garuda won't be taking the three remaining A330s they have on order?  Sad

WINGS - a slight reversal for your A330 numbers, by the look of it.  hissyfit 
 
gigneil
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:59 am



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
Does the A333 have the legs to do BOG/CCS/HAV/MEX/GRU/GIG non-stop from MAD?



Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 11):
Doubtful as these are i believe NOT A333X. Even the 333X would likely be too short. The equivalent aircraft for such routes is named the A343!



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 17):
SCL is very high and I think there are engine-out limitations there - I'd be surprised if the 301 could get out of there to MAD with enough fuel to go non-stop.



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
BOG, GRU, GIG etc all well within reach.

BOG,GRU, GIG and MEX are out of the question. GRU and GIG are basically completely outside the range of the aircraft. MEX is way too hot and high. CCS could do it both ways but with little if any cargo. BOG is almost outside the range of the aircraft and would go without any cargo.

This plane would really only be good to Europe, the Caribbean, Northern Africa, and the entire US East Coast. I'd say DXB is about the furthest afield from MAD you'd want to go West, ACC and LOS to the South.

NS
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:30 am

This pair of A330-300s would more likely then not only fly between MAD-Canary Islands and MAD-HAV. I can imagine these will replace the pair of Audeli A340-300s currently flying the route, EC-IDF and EC-KCL, which would probably be added into the mainline fleet to cover some of the capacity left since EC-JOH is out of operation.

These A330-300s will act like the 747-400s. Iberia was actually looking at leasing two A330-200s from TAM (which went to Qatar instead) but went with the 747-400 isntead.
No Vueling No Party
 
Pu752
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:52 am



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 21):
GRU and GIG are basically completely outside the range of the aircraft.

Well, TAM uses A330s on longer routes like GRU-CDG......... so its not completely outside the range...as a matter of fact the A333 has a range of 5650nm and MAD-GRU is 4500nm.......and MAD-BOG is even shorter than MAD-GRU.... but in here you can have restriction due to airport altitude.
 
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:52 am

For what it's worth, Garuda have six A333s, built in 1996 and 1997. They should still have plenty of life in them but their vintage probably makes them more suitable for short- to medium-haul ops than anything close to the type's nominal maximum range. Expect to see all six on IB's regional network next year?
 
Asiaflyer
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:00 am

Skyliner Aviation News still has an order of 3 new A330-300 listed on their website.
Does anyone know whats going on with them?
Airbus has not confirmed that order.

http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/news...D=612a8d0b51153fd7d225f21ca0752516
 
wolflair
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:04 am



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
Does the A333 have the legs to do BOG/CCS/HAV/MEX/GRU/GIG non-stop from MAD? For scheduling purposes I wonder if it is possible. The A333 is probably the most efficient aircraft flying right now for high traffic MD-Canaries routes I would say.

Whilst it may have the legs for an eastbound MEX or HAV, I am sure it will be highly restricted eastbound from MEX.

CCS may be withing range on both directions (bus possibly pushing it westbound).

From BOG it's a no-no due to BOG elevation.
GRU/GIG are not within range AFAIK.

I makes perfect sense to bring a A333 to cover the A340-600:

- High demand in a few weeks time (christmas holidays) to the Canary Islands and other destinations.
- Some degree of commonality with current fleet.
- The planes can act as substitute for an A346, which would be freed for the long-haul network and would cover the bird being repaired at UIO.
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upperdeckfan
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:11 am



Quoting Rojo (Reply 9):
Now, the A330 could fit well in the Canary Island operations and on flights to Havana, Puerto Rico, Panama, etc. that do not need a big and fancy Business Class product (unless IB retrofits these aircraft with the new Business Intercontinental).

IB is looking towards offering a consistent premium product across the whole long haul network, in fact it's almost there since the remaning Audeli A343's are expected to get the Bussiness Plus cabin early next year.

The element that would change upon demand will be the number of seats offered on each route.
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A388
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:01 pm



Quoting PU752 (Reply 23):
Well, TAM uses A330s on longer routes like GRU-CDG......... so its not completely outside the range

TAM uses the A330-200 which is not the A330-300. Remember that GA operates the older version of the A330-300 which is more limited in range compared to the newer A330-300X or the A330-200. So yes, it is outside the range of the A330-300s operated by GA as they are the older version especially seeing the higher altitude nature of the South American destinations mentioned.

A388
 
USADreamliner
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:26 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
I also think Buenos Aires and Mexico City would do well with them.

Buenos Aires and Mexico ( in that order) are the biggest markets for IB in Latin America. They need something bigger than the A330.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:39 pm



Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 29):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
I also think Buenos Aires and Mexico City would do well with them.

Buenos Aires and Mexico ( in that order) are the biggest markets for IB in Latin America. They need something bigger than the A330.

LOL I hear what you are saying but the A333 is the same size as the A343 technically, and the one of their A346s is all busted up at UIO and looks likely to remain so for a while, so if they were desperate for the capacity they could run the A333 down there, although a fuel stop will obviously be required for the Argentine route. Wont happen obviously, but the option is there if they are really in a pickle.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
PRAirbus
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RE: Iberia To Add Airbus A330-300

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:35 pm

SJU might be a good destination for IB A330; not too much capacity needed during low season on that route. Perhaps IB could relaunch some longhaul on A330 to/from BCN too. I'm surprised they aren't an A330 customer...I am sure IB has markets where that type could operate effectively.

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