jush
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:54 pm

Wow how cool that is. Unfortunately in Germany we can't see this episode on that day or the next time.
If someone has a link or anything where one can download or stream that episode I would be so thankful.


Regds
jush
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tb727
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:08 pm

The 747 classic has a required flight crew of 3 qualified pilots, the Captain(PIC), the FO(SIC) and the FE(Plumber).

61.55(a)(1) Requires you to be a qualified Second in Command if you are occupying that seat, meaning you would need your ME rating. Even if you are flying part 91(91.531(c)). I am pretty sure you can't do your "flight training" in a 747. Someone may be able to figure out a loophole, but I doubt it, after 9-11 things with ME training in large transport category aircraft got real strict.


Sec. 61.55

Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:

(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and

(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and

(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace.
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luv2cattlecall
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:07 pm



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 11):
Quoting AF340 (Reply 6):
Or maybe Metis Transpacific

Well, any airline may do it,

Just to make sure, you do know that Metis Transpacific is a fake airline trying to scam people, right? Their IATA code is BS for a reason!

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 17):
I just e-mailed their management to see if they will lend one of their 747's to the show!

Make sure you ask them if they would lend the magical unicorn 744 without winglets or any of the other -400 stuff! While we're at it, let's get one of their 757s and mythbust whether or not one of those things can do the kangaroo route or whatever they're claiming!
.
 
PanAm747
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:16 pm

Hey, if a cross-eyed flight attendant can fly a 747-123 (leased from AA, of course) through the Wasatch mountains of Utah, then I think that anything is possible.  rotfl 

Sorry, I couldn't resist!!

In all seriousness, let's wait until the show airs and then analyze their methodology.
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threepoint
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:06 pm



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 52):
Just to make sure, you do know that Metis Transpacific is a fake airline trying to scam people, right?

Of course they do. They are among the top posters in the anti-Metis Transpacific thread and have had contact with the scammer.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Bohlman
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:19 pm



Quoting Warszawa (Reply 33):
They'll probably reference the movie ' Air Force One ' as in that movie a Cessna-skilled pilot lands a 747 after the aircraft was hijacked for hours in flight.

As has been noted, Executive Decision. A private pilot who's shown forgetting about landing gear in the beginning of the movie is proved competent enough to land a 747 with half its instruments shot up. Does great things for the profession  Smile.

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 51):
The 747 classic has a required flight crew of 3 qualified pilots, the Captain(PIC), the FO(SIC) and the FE(Plumber).

61.55(a)(1) Requires you to be a qualified Second in Command if you are occupying that seat, meaning you would need your ME rating. Even if you are flying part 91(91.531(c)). I am pretty sure you can't do your "flight training" in a 747. Someone may be able to figure out a loophole, but I doubt it, after 9-11 things with ME training in large transport category aircraft got real strict.


Sec. 61.55

Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:

(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and

(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and

(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace.

Exactly. On any single pilot certified jet, all you would need was a captain and you could technically teach somebody their private pilot's license in a, say, Premier. The student doesn't even need a medical, as the medical is only required for soloing the A/C. But on a 747, that second crew member is required, so you can't just stick any Tom Dick or Harry in there. Required: CPL (unless the SIC is paying an equal share for the flight), MEL. As was noted above, SIC type and instrument ratings aren't required, as long as you're flying VFR in the US.
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mirrodie
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:26 pm



Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 2):
That is, I believe, thanks to a thread I started on the website about the infamous discussion we had here regarding the same topic!

Thank God no one else here even thought to ask the same question you did!  Wink

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 18):
Nor will the law allow you to do it. You would have to be a pilot and have your Multi-Engine rating in order to operate the flight controls of a real 747.

Obviously there are different opinions about this.

Quoting Warszawa (Reply 33):
I'd pay money to watch that show. I want the guys who have 3000 hours at a virtual airline flying payware FS2004 aircraft on the computer to go on mythbusters and try to land a 747 in a real airline simulator

How about the guys who've shown proficiency in level D sims?

In any case, I guess the rest is speculation for another week. Thanks to the OP for heads up.
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spacecadet
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 53):
Hey, if a cross-eyed flight attendant can fly a 747-123 (leased from AA, of course) through the Wasatch mountains of Utah, then I think that anything is possible.

She was using the auto-pilot... I imagine anyone *could* fly a 747 that way.

I don't remember how she supposedly landed it, but I do remember she obviously had coaching. I'm pretty sure she used the AP most of the way down. But the whole reason there was drama at the end was because the last few feet just came down to luck.

Edit: wait, didn't a real pilot get lowered into the plane at some point?

Anyway, this sounds like one of those episodes where there are going to be people surprised on both sides. People seem to get stuck on one little aspect of any of these more technical myths and they miss the big picture. It's almost always a combination of factors that come into play.

The closest analog that they've done to the conveyor belt thing that I can think of is when they did the Knight Rider stunt driving the speeding Camaro into the back of a moving truck. It was another experiment that dealt with friction and momentum and relative speeds. Adam thought the car was just going to go speeding uncontrollably through the truck because the wheels were turning at high speed and had power continuously applied. But it turned out that inertia won out over friction and torque, and they proved that that stunt shown in TV shows is for real.

The conveyor belt myth is also going to deal with friction, inertia and "torque" (or thrust), and how those three forces are going to be balanced or unbalanced. I have a feeling it's going to come down to "if you have a powerful and strong enough plane, you can do it", but they probably will not have a powerful or strong enough plane. Lots of GA aircraft have maximum ground speeds that a conveyor belt could easily surpass, and the tires are just going to shred before the plane builds up enough airspeed to take off - if it can even overcome the friction. If a plane requires 80 knots of airspeed, and the conveyor belt's going 80 knots in the other direction, then the plane's going to need 160 knots of ground speed before it can take off.

It's not going to be one of those either/or things, which is what a lot of their fans always seem to want. But science and engineering don't work that way; often it's just a case of building something strong and fast enough to do what you want it to do.

[Edited 2007-12-05 10:30:38]
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SirDeath
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:28 pm

I'm sure they will do the landing from some advanced flight simulator (maybe UA's 744 sim in Denver considering the show is based in SFO and UA is a big player there? Just a theory...). Something like that would be just as good without putting lives or property at risk.
 
PGNCS
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:28 pm



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 18):
I have a feeling most if not all airlines' insurance providers would vehemently disagree with you.

Nor will the law allow you to do it. You would have to be a pilot and have your Multi-Engine rating in order to operate the flight controls of a real 747.

Yes; insurance is a showstopper. You can train in a control seat with a properly certificated airman in the other seat; as long as it's dual instruction (which it is with a minimum crew size dictated by FAR) you do not need any certificates to be a trainee in a control seat.

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 20):


Quoting Tb727 (Reply 18):
You would have to be a pilot and have your Multi-Engine rating in order to operate the flight controls of a real 747.

What about a type rating? Just because you have a multi-engine rating doesn't mean you can fly anything with multiple engines. It has to be under 12,500 lbs, and I believe there are other restrictions to a regular license.

You have to have all these certificates and ratings to be certified to fly the aircraft; that isn't what we're are talking about. Non revenue flights were used for years for training, initial certificate issuance, and type rating issuance before the advent of better simulation.

Quoting Scramjetter (Reply 29):
You are mostly correct. The other pilot would need to have a student pilot license. To obtain the rating necessary to fly a 747, other ratings would naturally apply (a 747 is over 12500 lbs). To simply learn to fly the 747, just a student pilot license will suffice.

You actually do NOT need a student pilot certificate. You need a student pilot certificate to SOLO in an aircraft, which is not what we are talking about here; the 747 has a minimum crew complement defined by FAR that is greater than one, so no one would ever be allowed to solo in a 747, obviously. This is what the FAA website says about the issue:

When do I need a student pilot’s certificate?
Before you can fly solo. You don’t need a student pilot’s certificate to take flying lessons.

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
You could in theory do your initial multi-engine training in a 747 if you had the money (and if anyone would insure you).

Yes you could.

Quoting Jmbarros12 (Reply 39):


Quoting Scrumpy492003 (Reply 13):
IF the 747 will leave the runway under control and intact, then it will be a great one.

Might be a fantastic advertisement for Boeing. Maybe Boeing itself will offer a 747 used for tests to Mythbusters.

I guess I don't get the logic of this statement. You are saying that Boeing could advertise that crews don't need to be well trained to fly their planes?  Wink

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 51):
The 747 classic has a required flight crew of 3 qualified pilots, the Captain(PIC), the FO(SIC) and the FE(Plumber).

61.55(a)(1) Requires you to be a qualified Second in Command if you are occupying that seat, meaning you would need your ME rating. Even if you are flying part 91(91.531(c)). I am pretty sure you can't do your "flight training" in a 747. Someone may be able to figure out a loophole, but I doubt it, after 9-11 things with ME training in large transport category aircraft got real strict

Show me where you can't do training in a 747. Airlines used to do it all the time; I have done contract training with a 747-400 (among other aircraft) myself.
 
0newair0
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:28 pm



Quoting Scramjetter (Reply 29):
My brother is an A&P working for a major airline in the US and was able to successfully land the 757 simulator with no experience whatsoever piloting a real airplane, just Flight Simulator. He got kudos from the sim instructor! I however have a US Pilot license but often wonder if I'd be able to get the heavy metal down in one piece...

Did the sim instructor have the "allow crash" function on? Not meaning to take away any kudos from your brother...just a question.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:34 pm



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 57):
I don't remember how she supposedly landed it,

She didn't. Charlton Heston's character was "dropped" into the cockpit from a helicopter.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
GeorgeJetson
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:36 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 37):
Can you fly this plane????

Shirley you can be serious???

I am...... and don't call me Shirley???

There’s no reason to become alarmed and we hope you’ll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane? (from Airplane!)
Meet George Jetson
 
AirframeAS
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:07 pm



Quoting SupraZachAir (Reply 34):
part 65

Excuse me, I was wrong...

Part 65: Certification for mechanics. Its Part 61 that I was referring to which completely covers pilots.
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KPWM
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:52 pm



Quoting 797 (Reply 38):



Quoting 797 (Reply 38):
Uhhh Awesome! Can't wait to see it... when is it exactly going to be shown?

Yahoo shows times here: http://tv.yahoo.com/mythbusters/show/airplane-hour/episode/155326
times are in eastern daylight time.
94
 
Desh
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:56 pm

Would'nt a conveyor belt have a similiar effect as a catapult would on aircraft carriers ? ? ?
"History is merely a list of surprises. It can only prepare us to be surprised yet again." - Kurt Vonnegut
 
bond007
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:01 pm



Quoting Desh (Reply 66):
Would'nt a conveyor belt have a similiar effect as a catapult would on aircraft carriers ? ? ?

if it was connected to the aircraft and went in the same direction .... yes. This isn't and isn't ....

This thread please:
If A Plane Took Off A Conveyor Belt... (by Sovietjet Nov 29 2005 in Tech Ops)


Jimbo
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glydrflyr
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:05 pm

Why are they fooling around with little airplanes like the 747? Let 'em borrow a 380 from Airbus or that Russian thing with all the engines on it. If they screw up the landing with one those fully loaded babies, Richter scales all over the world will go bonkers.

Note to Johan: If they do get one of the super jumbos to play with, have A.net sell tickets to the landing site and all the finances will be taken care of forever!  Wink
if ya gotta crash, hit something soft and cheap!
 
mirrodie
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:28 pm



Quoting SirDeath (Reply 58):
I'm sure they will do the landing from some advanced flight simulator

Perhaps we should start an Anet pool, since we have so many theories. Is anyone keeping books?

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 57):
if a cross-eyed flight attendant can fly a 747-123 (leased from AA, of course) through the Wasatch mountains of Utah, then I think that anything is possible.

Flashback, she was a nice looking esotrope. Big grin
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Bohlman
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:32 pm



Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 56):
Obviously there are different opinions about this.

Not among the people that have read the FARs

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 59):
Yes you could.

No, you can't. See my post above.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 59):
Show me where you can't do training in a 747. Airlines used to do it all the time; I have done contract training with a 747-400 (among other aircraft) myself.

You can do training in a 747, however, you must satisfy the exceptions that I noted above (taken directly out of the FARs as quoted by Tb727.

Quoting Bohlman (Reply 55):
On any single pilot certified jet, all you would need was a captain and you could technically teach somebody their private pilot's license in a, say, Premier. The student doesn't even need a medical, as the medical is only required for soloing the A/C. But on a 747, that second crew member is required, so you can't just stick any Tom Dick or Harry in there. Required: CPL (unless the SIC is paying an equal share for the flight), MEL. As was noted above, SIC type and instrument ratings aren't required, as long as you're flying VFR in the US.

Here's a quick break down, my comments are in bold:

Quote:
Sec. 61.55

Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds: ok, a 747 has a SIC required

(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and aka can't do it unless you have a PPL

(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and need an instrument rating on a MEL aircraft, can't be single engine

(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace. So if Adam and Jamie have only an MEL PPL, they could technically do this, if THEY were willing to shell out the out of pocket expense, and as long as the flight was conducted in VFR domestic operations.

Sorry, there may be multiple opinions about this, but there's only one correct opinion as far as the regulations are concerned.
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
warszawa
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:42 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 47):
That's Executive Decision. Air Force One is where Harrison Ford gets zip-lined over to a C-130 or something.

Yeah thats right, it is Executive Decision.
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
JRDC930
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:22 pm

No need to even test this. NO! Not just any one can land a 747. Theres a reason 747 captains get paid 120,000 plus dollars. I cant believe they even need to test this. They have obviously been weatching too many Airport 70 something movies.  irked 
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mdl21483
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:33 pm

Anyone remember that little side room at one of the exibits in Epcot with MSFS3.1 running a DC-10?
BTW, who says that they'll be staying in the States to do the test?

Can anyone off the street with no aviation related experience whatsoever learn enough to land a 747 SAFELY several minutes later???

Since they're talking going with an avrelated show, perhaps they'll touch on the age old topic of can cell phones throw a plane off course and that terrible thought of coordinating with an icrap?
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XXXX10
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:38 pm

I was lucky enough to fly the full motion 744 simulator.

I had a former 744 pilot in the left hand seat who put me about 4 miles out on the approach. I was able to carry out a passable landing and stop the aircraft on the runway although I did let the nose wheel down a little quickly.

It is certainly not easy but it is possible. Had there been any cross wind it would not have been pretty.
 
lrdc9
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:41 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):

Mythbusters is a fun show, but they often use poor methodology and come to inane conclusions.

That is very true! When they tested whether an airplane could flip a taxi over they used some Hollywood prop with a combined 2500 lbs static thrust when even an RJ produces considerably more. That's the only time I ever though of e-mailing Mythbusters.

Also, that Belt thread is 3 years old and still going strong!! Wish I could start a thread that popular.
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bond007
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:54 pm



Quoting Lrdc9 (Reply 75):
When they tested whether an airplane could flip a taxi over they used some Hollywood prop with a combined 2500 lbs static thrust when even an RJ produces considerably more. That's the only time I ever though of e-mailing Mythbusters.

You missed the one when they used a Kalitta 747 then ???

Jimbo
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RayChuang
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:18 pm

As for "anyone landing a 747," I think if you can find an airport with ICAO Category IIIB certified navigation systems for landing approach and a plane that can do Category IIIB automated landings, that should not be impossible. Most of the world's large airports have Category IIIB landing systems and most recent airliners have systems that allow for Category IIIB fully-automated landings. I'm sure the majority of 747-400's can do such landings.
 
Charliejag1
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:01 pm



Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 23):
As far as the propulsion goes, no outside air is required. (Of course, you do need to feed air into a jet engine to actually run it.)

In a modern high bypass turbofan engine, about 90% of the air that enters the inlet cowl does NOT go through the engine and get burned. I find your comment totally incorrect, and I'm also confused as to what you are trying to say.
 
NwAflyer07
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:34 am



Quoting GoCOgo (Thread starter):
Is there any airline crazy enough to allow Adam or Jamie to have a go at landing one of their 747s?

Emirates'l have no problem donating one of their 747s. They have all the money in the world plus tons of A380s on order. haha

In reality, even if an airline were to lend them a 747 i doubt it would be legal. Youd have to have both a liscensed pilot and copilot on board the aircraft and therd be seriously strict saftey measures in affect. I'd be interesting as hell though!!
 
pilotpip
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:37 am



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 77):
As for "anyone landing a 747," I think if you can find an airport with ICAO Category IIIB certified navigation systems for landing approach and a plane that can do Category IIIB automated landings, that should not be impossible. Most of the world's large airports have Category IIIB landing systems and most recent airliners have systems that allow for Category IIIB fully-automated landings. I'm sure the majority of 747-400's can do such landings.

Trying to teach somebody how to program an FMS would be much harder than a basic landing.

And you guys all seem to forget that there are these things called simulators that airlines use to train pilots before they start IOE. ZERO liability, real enough that the FAA says you can use it for training and type rating rides.
DMI
 
BlueSkys
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:49 am

I think it is possible.

I m a private pilot, and while working is a part-time AME I had the chance to go up on a falcon900 test flight after some MX. I was right seat just after TO and I flew the plane through the whole test flight.. The cpt was there the whole time but he just told me the things to do (a little different than a 172) and I landed the plane. The BEST experience of my life, better than the first time I, well you know....


I had a perfect landing @ YYZ at the controls... The cpt did take care of the ATC communications though...


SO MUCH FUN!!! but the way i see it.. If I could land a Falcon 900, I could probably land a 747... I have 145 hours BTW, so I am not very experienced! & no M.ulti Experience before that flight
 
PGNCS
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:00 am



Quoting Bohlman (Reply 70):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 59):
Yes you could.

No, you can't. See my post above.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 59):
Show me where you can't do training in a 747. Airlines used to do it all the time; I have done contract training with a 747-400 (among other aircraft) myself.

You can do training in a 747, however, you must satisfy the exceptions that I noted above (taken directly out of the FARs as quoted by Tb727.

I think you are correct after re-reading this. In the times I have done bounce rides in large aircraft we have all been CPL's or ATP's.
 
Bohlman
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:04 am



Quoting Charliejag1 (Reply 78):
In a modern high bypass turbofan engine, about 90% of the air that enters the inlet cowl does NOT go through the engine and get burned. I find your comment totally incorrect, and I'm also confused as to what you are trying to say.

Yeah, air is the propellant. High bypass engines like the GE90 have bypass ratios in the area of 9:1, but that doesn't mean that 90% of the thrust is from the fan, simply that for every part of air that goes into the core of the engine, 9 parts go through the bypass chamber (air that is relatively unmodified by pressure and completely unmodified by combustion). The GE90, for instance, has a pressure ratio of approximately 30-40:1 (depending on series, power settings, etc), which means that there's still a high percentage of thrust coming from the actual combustion in the engine. But yes, with turbojets(fans), air is still the propellant, whereas with a rocket, the propellant is the propellant. Jets use fuel as a combustor and initiating agent to accelerate the air to both turn the turbine (which brings more air in to continue the cycle) and provide thrust.

So, to repeat what Charliejag1 has said, I'm confused as to what you are trying to say.
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Bohlman
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:14 am



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 82):
I think you are correct after re-reading this. In the times I have done bounce rides in large aircraft we have all been CPL's or ATP's.

We probably have the same reaction when reading FARs: instant sleep aid  Smile.
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
PGNCS
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:22 am



Quoting Bohlman (Reply 84):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 82):
I think you are correct after re-reading this. In the times I have done bounce rides in large aircraft we have all been CPL's or ATP's.

We probably have the same reaction when reading FARs: instant sleep aid  Smile .

Now on that one I KNOW you're right!  Smile
 
SKA380
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 44):
It's air speed that matters, not ground speed. The Cub has a 33 knot stall speed. Turn it into a wind greater than 33 knots, cut it loose, and you'll be airborne with no forward ground speed
Yes, of course..
But to prove that theory you dont need a conveyor belt now do you.. All you need is enough headwind..
I've seen twin-otters in norway taking off pretty much vertically due to the strong headwind, so you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that thats not the theory they're trying to test..
That an aircraft can take off with enough head wind is not a myth, its a FACT...

I'd say they will test what will happen to a aircraft with take off power on a conveyor belt during zero wind conditions, and we all know whats gonna happen then..

[Edited 2007-12-05 21:35:40]
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:16 am



Quoting MDL21483 (Reply 73):
perhaps they'll touch on the age old topic of can cell phones throw a plane off course

They have, couple of seasons ago I think. I believe the outcome was plausible.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:41 am



Quoting Bohlman (Reply 83):
Yeah, air is the propellant. High bypass engines like the GE90 have bypass ratios in the area of 9:1, but that doesn't mean that 90% of the thrust is from the fan, simply that for every part of air that goes into the core of the engine, 9 parts go through the bypass chamber (air that is relatively unmodified by pressure and completely unmodified by combustion). The GE90, for instance, has a pressure ratio of approximately 30-40:1 (depending on series, power settings, etc), which means that there's still a high percentage of thrust coming from the actual combustion in the engine.

This isn't exactly right. Although correct that the thrust ratio doesn't match the bypass ration, the vast majority of the thrust (80%+) comes from the fan flow. Fan air is completely unmodified by combustion but does go through a significant pressure rise across the fan (which is converted to velocity by the nacelle).

The pressure ratio of 30:40:1 is across the compressor only. The pressure drops down a lot across the turbines. The engine pressure ratio, end to end, is typically in the 1.3-1.7 range.

Tom.
 
scramjetter
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:16 pm



Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 60):
Did the sim instructor have the "allow crash" function on? Not meaning to take away any kudos from your brother...just a question.

I am not sure about that one. He did mention that there were a couple of 'crashes' by students. The entire flight sequence was flown in night conditions.

I am so jealous.
 
chase
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:30 pm

All I really have to add to this:
My father used to work on the full-motion sims at a US-based legacy carrier. He took me in to work with him twice - once with my stepsister in 1998 or so, once with my wife about a week before 9/11. "Flew" different a/c each time, but one was a 747. One of those two times, I made a landing which he said would have, if it were in real-life, caused some bumps and bruises but not killed anybody. I was fairly proud of that. I don't remember if it was the 747 or not. But, he was telling me what the various controls do, so doesn't necessarily fall under the premises of the MythBusters episode.

[Edited 2007-12-06 13:37:01]
 
rwessel
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:37 pm



Quoting Don81603 (Reply 91):
To dumb it down as much as possible, (and I make no claim to your intelligence level at all, I just want to make sure everyone can understand it as clearly and simply as possible) a jet engine sucks air in, compresses it, and shoots it out the back, thereby creating low pressure in front, and high pressure behind, which pushes the engine (and therefore the airframe) forward.

Unfortunately that's been dumbed down to the point of being flatly incorrect.

A jet engine, or rocket engine, works by flinging mass (air+fuel in once case, fuel+oxidizer in the other) backwards. Period. Newton's third law and all that. Pressures don't enter into it. In fact, it is a *bad* thing to send the exhaust out the back end with a higher pressure than the local atmosphere, because it's just wasted energy - if you do that gas will just expand sideways as soon as it's clear of the nozzle, and not contribute to propulsion at all. Getting the exhaust pressure to exactly match the local atmosphere is hard, so being a little off is acceptable (especially for a rocket in a vacuum, where you'd need infinite expansion). But the important thing is that the back end of your jet engine or rocket is always designed to allow the gas to expand as much as possible (based on the local pressure), which increases its velocity as much as possible.

The compression is irrelevant, except as something you want to uno before you're done. The fan of a turbofan or a propeller produce thrust with little or no compression, and those can trivially (if not practically, except for model airplanes) be driven by electric motors.

If you look at rocket motors, the entire bell at the bottom exists solely to expand the gas - and the bell is sized to match the pressure in which it will operate - which is why a rocket engine bell designed for use in vacuum is invariably huge relative to a booster's bells (adjusted for relative thrust levels, of course).
 
Mir
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:09 am



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 92):
Quoting NwAflyer07 (Reply 79):
Emirates'l have no problem donating one of their 747s

Now if only they owned any.

They do.


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DeltaRules
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:05 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
Quoting GoCOgo (Thread starter):
Is there any airline crazy enough to allow Adam or Jamie to have a go at landing one of their 747s?

SRB perhaps?

I would've said no way in hell until you mentioned SRB. With him, it's possible. The more ridiculous, the merrier.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 57):
I don't remember how she supposedly landed it, but I do remember she obviously had coaching. I'm pretty sure she used the AP most of the way down. But the whole reason there was drama at the end was because the last few feet just came down to luck.

There was one movie where a 747 was hijacked & the hijacker killed all 6 or 7 passengers & the entire crew save for one F/A, who landed it at LAX with the help of a 747 captain talking her down during his own flight & after he got to LA.

"Turbulence", maybe?
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PhilSquares
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:12 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 97):
They do.

Those 74Fs are owned and operated by Atlas on an ACMI contract for EK.
Fly fast, live slow
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:34 am



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 72):
No need to even test this. NO! Not just any one can land a 747. Theres a reason 747 captains get paid 120,000 plus dollars.

Unions?  confused 
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
4holer
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:08 am

Mythbusters did get permission from the guys at Airbus to do the conveyor belt experiment a while back, but it did not turn out well.

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don81603
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:44 am



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 96):
Newton's third law and all that.



For every action there is an equal, and opposite react. Suck air in one side, and expel it out the other. Create low pressure on one side, and higher pressure on the other, and an object will move, if the force is great enough to overcome friction. Jet and rocket engines work on the same principle, just a different method.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:13 am

Sure! Even I could land a 747!
Ohhh, you meant "...in one piece"!

Reminds me of the day my buddy and I went down for his first "lesson" on a 172. He was a Navy Hornet driver. Once ariborne, the instructor told him to "make a nice, coordinated turn", so my buddy grabs the yoke, banks hard to the left and pulls back HARD! That instructors face turned a certain shade of white and he grabbed the yoke and said "THAT's about the maximum bank angle right there" . He couldn't figure out why I was cracking up in the back seat. Big grin
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SEPilot
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:23 pm



Quoting Scramjetter (Reply 29):

My brother is an A&P working for a major airline in the US and was able to successfully land the 757 simulator with no experience whatsoever piloting a real airplane, just Flight Simulator. He got kudos from the sim instructor! I however have a US Pilot license but often wonder if I'd be able to get the heavy metal down in one piece...

I once had the opportunity of "flying" a KC-135 simulator, and did manage a fairly decent landing. The instructor told me that few small plane pilots manage it, as the height perception to get the flare right is so different. I knew that going in, and guessed as to what it should be and got it right. But I will concede that it was as much luck as skill; I certainly would not have liked trying it for the first time in the real plane. Could a total novice land a 747 successfully? With excellent coaching, perhaps, but not likely.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
robsawatsky
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RE: 12/12 Mythbusters - Can Anyone Land A 747?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:13 pm



Quoting SKA380 (Reply 86):
I'd say they will test what will happen to a aircraft with take off power on a conveyor belt during zero wind conditions, and we all know whats gonna happen then..

Apparently some people don't know based upon the previous posts in this thread.

Assuming the conveyor belt accelerates to match (in reverse) the take-off speed of the aircraft, I imagine a few things happening:

1. The aircraft lifts off.
2. The wheel bearings, having overheated, ignite the tires.
3. The aircraft catches fire when the landing gear is retracted.
4. The plane crashes.

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