Quoting AF340 (Thread starter): YYZ charges you per bounce for landing fees. Is this true

what?????? wasted space.

landing fees are based on weight of the aircaft.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 55): what?????? wasted space. landing fees are based on weight of the aircaft.

For some reason, I think you may have posted without reading the entire thread. Try reading the whole thread and you may notice that not only was the question already answered (correctly and identically to your post), but that the thread has since gone to bigger and better things, courtesy of Threepoint, Bond007, and 2H4.

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 52): Don't forget the you need quite sensitve Bounce Rate Enchanced Augmented Stress Trackers (BREASTs) to make sure the your STIFF landing can actually be transmitted visually to the pilots.

Auxiliary Stress Sensor works in correlation with the BREASTs to provide the pilots with an accurate reading of their landing.  


AF340  

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 52): PS: I vote this to be the 'best thread of the year'!!

I second that Motion

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 55): landing fees are based on weight of the aircaft.

Did you read the other posts? It might in your neck of the woods, but there's obviously a lot of other systems out there.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 41): The automated billing system kept double-counting landings that were right on the centerline, as (the best explanation I can give lacking technical knowledge) because the sensors were multi-directional and actually would sometimes detect perfectly centered nosegear as being two separate sets of gear. They had to solve this with a work-around camera called the centerline image transmitter which runs a digital shot of the gear through a simple computer and compares it to various types to basically automatically determine through some sort of automatic comparison whether the plane bounced or not.

There are a few problems with the centerline technology. The biggest problem we had at BTV was the centerline LIGHTS. Everytime the aircraft bumped over the lights, it charged another landing ... can you believe it?? Some pilots even 'cheated' the system, by always landing dead center when they knew they were going to bounce, and then filed for a refund, blaming it on the centerline lights!! It was an easy fix .. we just have the imaging system offset a little from the centerline, and also have a +/- limit for measuring nosegear on the centerline, since most pilots try and avoid the exact center for the same reasons.

Wow, you can certainly learn a lot from this forum!

Jimbo

However, there have been several noted cases of above systems malfunctioning due to interference of PMS. The pilots need to be extra cautious when an advisory is in effect for PMS. Most pilots prefer to use alternate runways or perform a manual landing (thus bypassing all the automated systems) on the runways effected by PMS. In some cases, the PMS system can be bypassed by fine-tuning the BREASTs system followed by ATC assisted manual landing.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 59): we just have the imaging system offset a little from the centerline, and also have a +/- limit for measuring nosegear on the centerline, since most pilots try and avoid the exact center for the same reasons.

A pretty good fix. The first one they tried at CHO, by the way, was to design a completely new design called a "pressure-independent sensor system." I'm not quite sure how it worked, but involved a directional beam emanating from a fixed point and then scanning widely in several directions. They got rid of it and switched to the imaging technology when they found it had bad results when it was aimed into a heavy wind.

Oh goodness, how could I have missed this.

I was just going over United's financial records relating to their bankruptcy filing. It turns out their biggest outstanding liability leading up to the Chapter 11 filing was unpaid bounce fees at JFK. Apparently, they owed over $1 billion in fees and interest, mostly at BTV and JFK, for bounced landings. It was the main impetus for the wage cuts they got from the pilots.

umm...

I always wondered if they counted touch and gos or "go arounds" twice, especially if you have to re-enter the pattern and take another slot??~?!?!?!

Taking another slot is rarely approved by ATC. Any Air Traffic Controller that does approve said manuever is extremely cool.

Quoting CWUPilot (Reply 64): Taking another slot is rarely approved by ATC. Any Air Traffic Controller that does approve said manuever is extremely cool.

Some of the coolest ATCs may agree to work together with other ATCs to ensure redundancy in above mentioned systems. Two ATCs can ensure that the pilot has the best landing possible without worrying about the PMS or other malfunctioning equipment. However, in extreme cases, the pilots may get confused as to which ATC takes presedence over the other, resulting in suspension of landing rights.

This is true...

However, I thought Splitz was refering to something else when he mentioned asking for another slot. To me, that sounds like requesting a backcourse localizer approach.

P.s. It should be noted that sometimes ATC won't talk to you for a week after requesting another slot while in the traffic pattern.

[Edited 2007-12-06 17:20:22]

This is a classic thread by any board's standards -- truly a keeper! I haven't laughed so hard since Steve Allen and Johnny Carson were the true Kings of late night TV. Thanks to all!

bb

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9): At some of the other airports, like BTV (Burlington, VT), they actually have pressure sensors on the runway that not only count the bounces, but also weigh the aircraft .

Having landed many times at BTV (and bounced a few of those) I discovered that not only was I charged for each bounce but the charge was multiplied by the height of the bounce in feet. But since the base landing rate for my plane was $0.00, it never impacted my wallet very hard.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 40): That is when the most stress will be put on the parking aprons, taxiways and runways.

Being serious for just a second, wouldn't landing actually put the most stress on the runway, because you have tires more or less slamming into the pavement?

Quoting IADCA (Reply 61): CHO

Ahh...the 'ol CHO-LA route...

CWUPilot, you've hit upon a valuable tidbit of airmanship that none should forget. Unauthorized backcourse approaches are truly perilous, even if you do pull up after reaching minimums. The controller (who really is, lest we forget, in command at most times) must be amenable to a strict set of conditions beforehand, and pilots often have to request this when the appropriate attitudes and times coincide. Failing to heed the lessons of those who have erred before can result in slot restrictions so tight that LHR in mid-morning appears wide open in comparison.

Have you ever been handed off from one controller to the next with minimal fuss? Glorious flying.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 62): It turns out their biggest outstanding liability leading up to the Chapter 11 filing was unpaid bounce fees at JFK.

It goes to show that flying a fleet of tired old widebodies rarely results in good health. If they'd simply invest in a few hundred new narrowbodies, you'd see a mass return to the friendly skies. All those passengers coming aboard means high load factors inside those narrowbodies.

[Edited 2007-12-06 18:47:33]

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 25): Who does?

The original poster.   

[Edited 2007-12-06 18:55:51]

Quoting N766UA (Reply 71): The original poster

OK, good. I thought I'd laid mine on pretty thick. The lowest form of wit, that's me to a tee.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 72): OK, good. I thought I'd laid mine on pretty thick. The lowest form of wit, that's me to a tee.

Haha, no worries... yours was quite clear.

Those FAA guys can be a real pain, sometimes, though. For real! I once landed on a small island airport, one notorious for its lingering line checks. After a long day of flying and with only myself in the airplane I wasn't so worried about the landing, but boy was I in for a treat. After shutting down the FAA inspector trotted out to my airplane with a big metal ticket book, like the ones meter maids have. "Your left main hit twice, your right main once, and the nosewheel once... that's 4 landings." He ripped me out my bill, tipped his fedora, and off he went after the next guy. Phenomenal!

What happens if there is a cross wind landing? Do they have a like a combo pack or something..Land here get 4 wheels down for the price of two...?

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6): Go to your hanger and bring me back about one hundred feet of flightline.

Oh Jeeze, now there's a 100' gap in the ramp!

What an awesome post! A wonderful change from the normal here.

Good lord. Why can't posts EVER stay on topic?

Bond, Threepoint and I tried to have a serious discussion about the PMS and TAMPON systems.

All you a.net fools have turned this thread into nothing but stupid childish acronyms!!!

Sheesh.

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 74): What happens if there is a cross wind landing? Do they have a like a combo pack or something..Land here get 4 wheels down for the price of two...?

Of course there are several combo packs available..BUT...those packs usually come with long contractual obligations that forbid the pilots to try and land at other runways. With years of committment of these contracts, constant upgraded fees, appearance enhancement ,ATC radio always on etc. charges added in...its better to pay the extra landing fees and land the way u want

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 78): With years of committment of these contracts, constant upgraded fees, appearance enhancement ,ATC radio always on etc. charges added in...its better to pay the extra landing fees and land the way u want

So true. As is so often the case, it's much, much cheaper (in the long run) to pay on demand. That way, you receive the services you want....and none of the ones you don't.

If I recall correctly, over half of the long-term contractual obligations end in dissatisfaction on both sides, and a very costly early termination process ensues.

2H4

OMG!!! You guys had me falling off of my Pilates ball. I have never bookmarked a forum thread before, but this one is an absolute keeper. Thanks for a great end to a long day. 

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 49): The consequences of improper preparation for a dry runway can also be severe:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 49): See, in this case, some form of lubrication would have minimized the heat and friction. Proper and liberal application of lubricant will minimize damage to both the aircraft and the runway. In these examples, foam was the preferred lubricant:

I got a call from a buddy of mine in Florida. He said that PNS is shut down due to hazardous conditions. Apparently they're out of their normal foam lubricant, but they got some coming in from SDF. As soon as their lube arrives from KY, they will be open again.

Quoting BooDog (Reply 77): Bond, Threepoint and I tried to have a serious discussion about the PMS and TAMPON systems.

Why? The other posters just reminded us of all available landing control systems. BTW, you forgot to mention that the PMS and TAMPON systems are to be used in sequence, as parallel use of both systems would lead to unnecessary redundancy. Not to mention that deployment of the TAMPON system makes STIFF landings really problematic.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 82): deployment of the TAMPON system makes STIFF landings really problematic

In that case the pilots are advisable to use alternate runways available. If that is not attainable, the pilot must do a manual landing while keeping an eye on external aids to help with the landing.





PS: If all A.netters get together like this, I think we can solve all the world's problems   

[Edited 2007-12-06 20:42:00]

Quoting BooDog (Reply 81): I got a call from a buddy of mine in Florida. He said that PNS is shut down due to hazardous conditions. Apparently they're out of their normal foam lubricant, but they got some coming in from SDF. As soon as their lube arrives from KY, they will be open again.

Glad to hear SDF is coming through for him. That's one good thing about locations in the southern states...they're generally happy to provide services to anyone. Problems regularly arise, however, when they service closely-related parties that should really only be servicing more distant parties. It can be very unhealthy for the region in question.

I'm surprised your buddy in Florida didn't contact NASA for the lubricant. Many years ago, they developed a very effective type for reentry during astronomical gliding operations. Given the very high temperatures and extreme friction that is inherent during long reentries, their formula is probably even more effective than the KY version.

2H4

Quoting BooDog (Reply 77): Good lord. Why can't posts EVER stay on topic? Bond, Threepoint and I tried to have a serious discussion about the PMS and TAMPON systems.

Well... On any "normal" thread, the three of you would already have been asked "source, please?" about twenty times, and here, no one bothered, so...

...So, I guess you are hiding something to us. Like the plan to test the new TAMPON system at Winnipeg's new Terry Francis airport (WTF)

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 85): So, I guess you are hiding something to us. Like the plan to test the new TAMPON system at Winnipeg's new Terry Francis airport (WTF)

I have nothing to hide. Besides, why would a system be deployed at WTF? WTF?!?!?!?

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 85): On any "normal" thread, the three of you would already have been asked "source, please?" about twenty times, and here, no one bothered, so...

Shun the nonbeliever. shuuuuuuuuuun.

Wow this thread was a waste of my life.

Quoting D328 (Reply 87): Wow this thread was a waste of my life.

I think someone MEL'd your Funometer. Better call your D.O.M. fast to get it replaced!

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 19): Well, OK I stand corrected, but AFAIK the German company sold the product to one of the large US firms ... Lockheed Martin perhaps?

No. The German company was taken over by a Chinese investor. He took all the patents and closed the shop. Now in China they produce several thousand of them a day and sell them for 999$ each. The US company just imports from China and installs with a little surcharge for a few millions.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 88): Quoting D328 (Reply 87): Wow this thread was a waste of my life. I think someone MEL'd your Funometer. Better call your D.O.M. fast to get it replaced!

I thnk he might be a VS flyer!!! 

Quoting Snaiks (Reply 58): Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 52): PS: I vote this to be the 'best thread of the year'!! I second that Motion

Thirded. And fourthed and fifthed.

Folks are wondering why I am looking at my PC crying with laughter.

Quoting BooDog (Reply 81): I got a call from a buddy of mine in Florida. He said that PNS is shut down due to hazardous conditions. Apparently they're out of their normal foam lubricant, but they got some coming in from SDF. As soon as their lube arrives from KY, they will be open again.

He just called me back. They had a near disaster; Louisville didn't have enough. They called around and found that Mobile had some extra liquid runway lubricant and some liquid-to-foam converters. Pensacola airport staff drove up to Mobile and borrowed their lube and their Viscous Interchange Aerators for Grooved Runway Airports. PNS will be up in fifteen minutes.

Congratulations to all those who have entertained us so well on this thread. There's been some huge wit and amazingly good lateral thinking - and it was tasteful . . . well, almost. Thanks!

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 10): Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6): Go to your hanger and bring me back about one hundred feet of flightline. Hint: It's next to the propwash.

Lol. Back in paramedic school when I did my alternative civil service we had the Emergency Response Chain (normally a rough EMS process model).

We had one guy in class who was really dumb like a fence post (edit: no analogy intended here to AF340!) because he fell for the same joke multiple times. Once he was assigned a car with a siren and blinking lights on the roof and asked to drive to the Red Cross station to get the Emergency Response Chain as fast as possible. One of the training personnel told him that we would need that piece of kit for an emergency that would occur tomorrow (!!!). He got in the car, lights on, sirens on and off he went. Almost two hours later he came back, totally exhausted and we later learned the following:

The guys at the Red Cross station were very sorry, but unfortunately had rented out the Emergency Response Chain to the Fire Brigade. He had to go there in order to get it. But in case he would go there anyway, he could take a 50l barrel of Dihydrogen Monoxide (chemical formula H2O) to the Fire Brigade, because they had borrowed it a week ago. After he was helped to get the barrel into the car, they told him that he should better keep blinking lights and sirens on and drive very slowly because Dihydrogen Monoxide would react extremely violently to shocks like brake actions. He then drove the 5km to the fire station with lights and sirens on and at a speed of 10 kph or so. Arriving there a few firemen were already expecting him and were very happy to get their Dihydrogen Monoxide back, because they were running short of it. But unfortunately their Emergency Response Chain had just broke yesterday when they encountered a very obese patient. But because of the severe accident that would happen tomorrow, they had already called at the hospital and if he was quick he would certainly get the chain at the Pathological Recovery Room. He should ask for Dr. Frankenstein who would work there. Before he left they gave him a small bag with Diarrhea Containment Plugs for Dr. Frankenstein and a sealed cooling box which allegedly contained a Head Amputate Bag for presentation at the paramedic school. At the hospital he was handed out a red box that was said to contain the Emergency Response Chain and then sent back to the paramedic school. We later learned that the hospital porter had been notified by the firemen and he had sent the poor guy to the facility manager who introduced himself as Dr. Frankenstein. Back at the school the trainer accepted the box with a poker face and told him that he has saved his first life and that his mum can be proud of him ... he believed it straight away.

He never understood that he was fooled and never asked what an Emergency Response Chain actually was nor why nobody tried to prevent the accident that was about to happen the other day. However, the cooling box had two sixpacks of beer in it ...  .

I just checked the thread after leaving work yesterday and I had 69 unread messages.

Coincidence? I think not.

Quoting AF340 (Thread starter):

Didn't you know that the whole purpose of tyre smoke is to hide the number of bounces to incur less landing fees? Michelin has actually developed a tyre that puts out more smoke for this very purpose, the "Le smokeur de Extraodinaire".

Regards, JetMech

Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 95): I just checked the thread after leaving work yesterday and I had 69 unread messages. Coincidence? I think not.

And now you missed mesage #96 by one !

Quoting BooDog (Reply 81): He said that PNS is shut down due to hazardous conditions.

The funny thing is, I'd heard that CLT was closed down by dense fog, which, combined by a faulty homing device, created an inability for inbounds to penetrate the murky conditions. As a result, though many attempts were made, no landings were completed.

Tom at MSY

Quoting JetMech (Reply 96): Didn't you know that the whole purpose of tyre smoke is to hide the number of bounces to incur less landing fees? Michelin has actually developed a tyre that puts out more smoke for this very purpose, the "Le smokeur de Extraodinaire".

Well, obviously this ONLY affects the camera systems (some ... see later), and NOT the PMS system, since the PMS system works on pressure and is not affected by visual disturbances.

BUT .... to your point ... Michelin wasted a lot of time and money, because the new camera systems use FLUF ... adapted from FLIR, which is Forward Looking infrared Up the Fuselage. It's totally unaffected by smoke.

As for PMS, I've heard BTV have some regular month-end problems, especially after a rather heavy period .. of rain.




Jimbo

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2): I believe landing fees are based on the weight of the aircraft. I have never heard of that before about the bounces. I am sure he was just joking.

At this point, I would like to thank Freshlove for answering the question originally posed.



And, of course, thanks to 2H4, Threepoint, BooDog, and Bond007 (among many more) for making this thread so gosh darn funny  



AF340