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bahadir
Topic Author
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CRJ Cargo Operations

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:48 am

Are old CRJs worth converting to freighters? Looks like there are many of them available/parked and they are not as economical as they used to be for pax service. There are some F20s and lears that are getting really old in the cargo world too..
I am sure there have been some studies about this.. Any ideas?
Earthbound misfit I
 
MCOflyer
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:04 am

I know there is a CRJ operator in Europe that uses a F version. I think it is WestAir europe. I am pretty sure they were newly built ones.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
2H4
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:16 am

Here it is - the CRJ-200PF:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jorgen Syversen - AirTeamImages



More info:

http://www.cascadeaerospace.com/products/CRJ/

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
RJwrench85
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:36 pm



Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 10):
Fedex may have been interested in it in the late '70s' or '80's and perhaps the current CRJ as a converted freighter, but it was never designed exclusively for them or their requirements.

But didnt some of the first CRJ's have doors that lifted up so that cargo was easier loaded. Escpecially for Fedex? I will try to find a pic I have from someone that worked on these specific aircraft
"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome"
 
OB1504
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 9):
Unfortunately the CRJ is overkill for what these planes do in the cargo world. On demand, just in time freight usually isn't a large amount and a full Falcon is fairly rare. Plus those are old but good airplanes(mostly), especially the ex-FedEx Falcons that are still flying, man those are some good airplanes.

Well, with the current glut of CRJs on the market, acquisition costs may get low enough for FedEx and other carriers to consider bringing them online.

[Edited 2007-12-06 14:15:38]
 
challengerdan
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:33 pm

I used to work at the plant where they build the Challengers, and I can tell you that in the CL601 drawings there was in fact a cargo version. We were kind of amused to see these Challenger drawings that had that big cargo door on its side. That must mean that somebody was interested back then (early eighties). But from what I understand, the CRJ200-PF still uses the Pax version door size, doesn't it?
if your flight goes MX in YUL, I might be called to fix it!
 
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FLALEFTY
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:22 am

CRJ freighters could make a "milk run"-to-hub of overnight package runs faster than the Cessna 206s or ATR 42s.

Sometimes there is beauty in speed!
 
Splitz
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:47 am

Interesting topic never through about the CRJ100/200's being Cargo.

I could see FedEx replacing a portion of their "older" ATR42 that American Eagle and Continental Express flew back in the day. But I do know that FedEx is looking at getting at least 100 ATR's (they've got 42 now).

But it seems that FedEx plans to purchase all ATR42/72 from carriers that are looking to dump them for CRJ and ERJ.

Wonder if it is viable to replace ATR42 with a faily "new" EMB135/145?

Fedex has very few of the Falcon 20's left i thought?
 
Viscount724
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:08 am



Quoting Splitz (Reply 15):
Fedex has very few of the Falcon 20's left i thought?

As far as I know, Fedex hasn't operated any Falcon 20s for many years.
 
FlyHoss
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:10 am



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3):
It's the reason the plane was designed, it would probably make a good freighter.

For those of you who don't know, the Challenger was designed as a replacement for Fed Ex's Falcon 20s. They were designed with deregulation in mind and designed to be lengthend (CRJs). Cargo deregulated the year before passenger airlines and Fred started picking up 727s on the used market instead.

My recollection is closer to the following:

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 10):
I don't know where you got this from, but its false. The Challenger started out as the LearStar 600 as a business jet and the design was purchased by Canadair in '76. It is true that Canadair changed the design and widened the fuselage, but there is no mention that this was done for cargo and many years before deregulation even had a foothold. This was the first 'widebody' business jet at the time and using it as a freighter was not even on their radar screens. Fedex may have been interested in it in the late '70s' or '80's and perhaps the current CRJ as a converted freighter, but it was never designed exclusively for them or their requirements.

I do recall that Canadair proposed a stretched Challenger known as the "Challenger E" and that Fedex was the primary intended customer. But Fedex moved past that size of aircraft to 737s and then quickly to 727s and the Challenger E was shelved. The CRJ didn't follow for several years (maybe 4 or 5), IIRC.

At least that's how I recall the sequence of events (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). If I turn up any research to clarify this issue, I'll post it.
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doug_or
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:14 am



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 9):
Unfortunately the CRJ is overkill for what these planes do in the cargo world. On demand, just in time freight usually isn't a large amount and a full Falcon is fairly rare.

I'm not familiar with their ops, but doesn't USA jet use both the falcon and the DC-9? I would assume there would be some missions that fall somewhere in between...

Quoting Splitz (Reply 15):
Wonder if it is viable to replace ATR42 with a faily "new" EMB135/145?

I would have to doubt it. Similar capacity but higher costs. If used in the freight world I would have to assume the CRJ would not be used on the same profile as ATRs and Fokkers. If those aircraft are fast enough to get their packages to the hub then it would seem silly to pay more to get them there sooner. I would assume the future of the cargo CRJ would be for longer flights (where the speed was necessary) and on demand work.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
bahadir
Topic Author
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:26 am



Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 18):
I would have to doubt it. Similar capacity but higher costs. If used in the freight world I would have to assume the CRJ would not be used on the same profile as ATRs and Fokkers.

When you pay for overnight , you pay for the speed and convenience. I think CRJ could replace 2:1 in some cases the slower turboprops for the medium size travel. Currently all the small packages are being transferred through smal airplanes anywhere from PIper Lances to Metroliners from hubs to smaller airports. These will not be replaced by CRJs but there are some routes that are being serviced by Caravans and some ATRs. With the speed CRJ can do type of operation where you will need two ATRs.

I think there is market for CRJs in the cargo world as long as they can be retrofitted with nice cargo doors. It is also very obvious that EMBs may not make a good plane for the mission due to the limited size of the cabin vs. CRJs.
Earthbound misfit I
 
HUbsnotDubs
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:41 am

But where the Caravans and ATR's, F-27's are used they are feeders, feeding a hub where cargo is passed farther down line on larger equipment...would it really make sense to use a larger aircraft on these smaller routes and how much time would it really save? If the cargo is going from point A to C is there enough demand allowing the cargo company to bypass there B hub? I thought that the smaller feeders worked great on get it there now mentality but were not that cost effective....just my 2 cents!
 
Splitz
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:15 pm

RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:34 am

Well, when it comes to FedEx,

They only have two operators of the ATR42/72 in the US and soon to be Morningstar in Canada and I believe on other operator in North America. They have already contracted Air Contractors with 6 and another operator out of Spain.

Mountain Air Cargo in North Carolina and Empire Airlines based out of Hayden Idaho.

These 42 or so aircraft are used on the "thin" routes. They used to be served by a Caravan.

By my contact at FedEx, 3 Caravans = 1 ATR42 flight
3 ATR42 = 727 etc etc etc. I Don't see FedEx flying a 727 out of Hayden Idaho tho.

All of FedEx ATR's are owned, then dry leased out to the operators.

The F27's are used in Texas (last I heard in September) and only operate 6 out of AFW.

I wonder if they could use a CRJ200 out of MEmphis and get "packages" quicker for maybe faster delivery say, before 8am? It would definitly be a premium for that service.
 
doug_or
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:49 am



Quoting Splitz (Reply 21):
I wonder if they could use a CRJ200 out of MEmphis and get "packages" quicker for maybe faster delivery say, before 8am? It would definitly be a premium for that service.

On what kind of routes?

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 19):
...there are some routes that are being serviced by Caravans and some ATRs. With the speed CRJ can do type of operation where you will need two ATRs. .

Kind of confused how this would all work. The feeders spend most of their day on the ramp, how who the extra speed help?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Splitz
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:15 pm

RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:04 am



Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 22):
On what kind of routes?

Well, lets say a supplemental pacakges that need to get somewhere faster earlier and not necessarily at a hub location (i.e. Memphis).

Say, DFW - LAX assuming you can fill it up. But, most of the time, FedEx will cube out before it weighs out. With a smaller CRJ or EMB it might be economical. Obviously, studies would have to be done to see if it's even viable.

The ATR's are quick enough (fuel consumption and "slow")

So a jet might make more sense.

I don't know, just rambeling......
 
warszawa
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:37 am

RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:47 am



Quoting Splitz (Reply 23):
Well, lets say a supplemental pacakges that need to get somewhere faster earlier and not necessarily at a hub location (i.e. Memphis).

The 8am delivery service, while not available to all locations, is actually minimally used with Fedex, UPS, DHL. Its not a high-demand service to justify the need of a CRJ in some markets. The minimal $10-$15 surcharge to select an 8am service over a 10am service is nothing compared to the costs of a CRJ versus an ATR-42. Keep in mind, these are low-key markets, not business markets. Demand for the 8am service will even be -lower- in these markets than to the industrial or heavily urbanized cities of america. At best, if there were 100 (which I think its is an overkill estimation) 8am-prioritized parcels/envelopes on a flight, the additional $100-$150 Fedex would make is nothing compared to how much they'd lose by trying to satisfy the 8am delivery commitment utilizing a CRJ over an ATR-42.

Nonetheless, thats precisely why so few markets offer 8am delivery. Its a tough commitment, even when flying a 727. So why bother with a CRJ, over a reliable and cost effective ATR or comparable aircraft, in such low-key markets, where demand for 8am service would be even -lower- than it already is in some urban markets?

To be honest, I think the CRJ Freighter would be a complete and utter waste of money for Fedex, UPS, and DHL ops here in the USA. The ATR-42, ATR-72, and such aircraft are excellent replacement freighters that can supplement smaller markets with ease, reliablity, and speed. Nonetheless, even the F27, C208, B1900C, B1900D, etc. already conduct these successfully.

One of the longest MTN routes in the FX network is CWA-MEM, operated by an ATR-42. Now, at about a 2hr 45 minute flight, its only an hour or so longer than a jet. On shorter flights, the difference is negligble!

What that means is, on current short-route prop flown flights, replacing say, an F27 with a CRJ, on a 1hr flight, will get you a 1hr flight, F27 or CRJ. Perhaps, plus minus a couple minutes. Therefore, what it boils down to is on time departures from a hub, the departure time itself, and the effiency of the sort operation at hand.

For CWA, for example, FX virtually has three options:

1. Operate MEM-CWA via an ATR-42
2. Operate MEM-CWA via a CRJ
3. Operate MEM-ATW-CWA via a 727.

Most Economical = #1

Fastest Arrival = #2
But if you're going to operate #2, the costs would likely be the same if not worse than #3, so you may as well operate the 727 via ATW and equate to nearly the same fuel costs, but less in crew costs. The arrival time would be around the same time as #1.

#3 = Useless unless your thinking of going with option #2 and/or the loads are poor enough to CWA to negate the need for a nonstop flight. Still, in the current situation, less economical than #1, and would arrive in CWA at the same time as #1. Cancel this out.

We're left with the CRJ and the ATR. MTN8559 is supposed to depart MEM at 3:24am, arriving in CWA at 6:05am. However, again, efficiency in MEM. MTN8559 departs virtualy every-day at 4:45am, arriving in CWA around 7:20am.

Looking at that, you cut an hour of flight time with a CRJ, you could get into CWA at 6:20am. But, as I mentioned, the market is SO SMALL, especially in CWA, for such early 8am service, which yet alone is a piddly surcharge of $10-$15 extra than 10am delivery, that it just doesnt justify the costs of operationg a CRJ over an ATR in this market.

And, believe me, I can guarantee you nobody in bum **** egypt is complaining about the lack of 8am service. If anything, they're moaning about the costs of Next Day Air, period.

 Wink
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
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tb727
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RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:02 am



Quoting Splitz (Reply 15):
Fedex has very few of the Falcon 20's left i thought?

They don't. They left the fleet sometime in the late 80's. The ones that didn't get chopped up or sent to museums went to Reliant and now Kalitta owns all of their airplanes, of which about 4 or 5 are ex-FedEx birds. They are all D models which is my personal favorite model. You can still find some purple paint if you look hard enough in some spots during inspections. The guys that used to fly them at the beginning that stuck around are very well taken care of by Fred nowadays. They had a tough start but look at them now.

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 18):
I'm not familiar with their ops, but doesn't USA jet use both the falcon and the DC-9? I would assume there would be some missions that fall somewhere in between...

Yes, they do operate the -15 and -30, but a cooler operator on the field, Kalitta, operates Lears, Falcons, a DC-9-15 and 727-200's, just about perfect coverage for almost all on demand freight from 1 pound up to 50,000 pounds. Call in the 747 fleet for the heavier stuff.

I don't see the CRJ making into the charter world for at least 10-15 more years mostly due to price. I do see some entering feeder stuff for FDX and even UPS in the not so distant future. It's a proven airplane, that's for sure, and I think some big door CRJ's will be in the US soon. I am not sure of exact CRJ payload numbers but just by judging the size, it falls between the Falcon and the 9 which is a gap that a lot of feeder routes need filled. ATR's can still probably do it cheaper though.
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scrumpy492003
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:01 pm

RE: CRJ Cargo Operations

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:49 am

We have a bunch of ATR 42 or 72's in YYC,
they have been there for a few years now, and my 17 year old kid asked how much they would cost.

I replied maybe $1. in all seriousness!! and then posed the question to him of WHY only $1.

He came up with some things, BUT somebody would have to cover all the outstanding parking charges, and quite probably a complete overhaul with updated avionics etc. to make them up to today's standards. This would then raise the price considerably.

I am not sure of the name on the aircraft, BUT it would seem as though they were a holiday or island or coastal group.

How much would they cost? As is where is?

Peter
peter b95 c-ghfu

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