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flyyul
Topic Author
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Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:41 pm

With AF entering AZ bidding. and their noted intention of moving inter-continental flights to FCO, what is the future for MXP?

Further to that, Alitalia's network strategy was to cancel PVG, BOM and DEL. With the move to FCO, duplicate services to YYZ and BOS, will also be cancelled. They filed daily slots for daily LAX, YUL, and GIG for summer 2008.

Discuss..
 
MAH4546
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:06 pm



Quoting FLYYUL (Thread starter):
With AF entering AZ bidding. and their noted intention of moving inter-continental flights to FCO, what is the future for MXP?

I think there will likely be some carriers filling in some gaps. For example, possible Air Canada to Toronto and American Airlines to Miami and/or Chicago.
a.
 
runway23
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:10 pm

You'd think Alitalia would publish their finalized timetable sooner rather than later with the summer timetable not that far out. The more they wait the more of a mess this is gonna turn out to be in terms of reaccommodating passengers.

Do we have a clue what destinations are making their way over from MXP to LIN?
 
SQ325
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:12 pm

Milan is the economical Capital of Italy.
Leaving MXP to the competetors doesn' t sound like a great move to me.
There have been some Rumors around that AirOne will get some A340 or 330s which would be a direct attack on a AZ FCO Hub and in addition an LH supported one.
Btw FCO is Chaos during the peak hours I'm not sure if AZ can fullfill costumers needs in order of a reliable connection network.
There are a lot of Problems ahead for AZ regardless of the new investor.
 
flyyul
Topic Author
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:14 pm

Yes, but MXP has the problem of LIN. Even though MXP longhaul may be profitable, all the feeders narrowbody stuff is unprofitable because most customers heading to Milan want to land at the closer LIN.

See..Montreal Dorval vs Mirabel circa 1976-1995
 
C010T3
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:15 pm



Quoting FLYYUL (Thread starter):
They filed daily slots for daily LAX, YUL, and GIG for summer 2008.

Daily to GIG?
 
flyyul
Topic Author
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:16 pm

3 weekly to GIG.. daily to GIG mean 2 airplanes
 
C010T3
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:23 pm



Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 6):
3 weekly to GIG.. daily to GIG mean 2 airplanes

3 weekly is what I was expecting, but you weren't clear in that last post. Thank you for the clarification.
 
varig md-11
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:38 pm



Quoting FLYYUL (Thread starter):
daily LAX,

OK for GIG and YUL but LAX is a bit tricky to FCO I believe...

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
I think there will likely be some carriers filling in some gaps. For example, possible Air Canada to Toronto and American Airlines to Miami and/or Chicago.

 checkmark 

MXP cannot be left as a white elephant
it's up to the Milan area authorities to find incentives for foreign carriers to fill the AZ void
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nycfly75
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:43 pm

AF-KL-AZ's three hubs will be CDG, AMS and FCO. LIN will be a focus city.

Also, just to note in 2006 FCO-JFK+JFK-FCO (all carriers-direct) carried 462,108 pax, making it the #1 Long haul route from Italy.
 
nycfly75
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:47 pm



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 8):
MXP cannot be left as a white elephant

Unfortunately no matter how its painted, it will always be a white elephant, sort of in the way Mirabel was to Montreal.
 
varig md-11
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:25 pm



Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 10):
Unfortunately no matter how its painted, it will always be a white elephant

I am an FCO supporter from step 1  Wink
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eghansen
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:08 am



Quoting SQ325 (Reply 3):
Milan is the economical Capital of Italy.

This is undoubtedly true, but it is not much a tourist draw. The tourists all head for Rome, Venice or Florence. In addition, Rome has a big cruise business departing from Civitavecchia.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
MAH4546
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:50 am



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 12):

This is undoubtedly true, but it is not much a tourist draw.

That is true, but that's why Rome-USA yields are extremely weak during the winter months, although strong during the summer. Milan retains stronger yields year-round do to being Italy's business capital.
a.
 
eghansen
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:34 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
That is true, but that's why Rome-USA yields are extremely weak during the winter months, although strong during the summer. Milan retains stronger yields year-round do to being Italy's business capital.

Judging from the fare sales in the winter months, all US-Europe route yields are weak during the winter. I usually make my annual trip to Europe in the winter because the air fares are less than half the summer fares. I have found bargain basement fares for many years running from SAN/LAX to FRA/LHR/CDG/AMS/ZRH/MXP for less than US$600 including taxes. And the airplanes are never very full.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
bennett123
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:39 am

Depends where in Europe you plan to visit.

London is not much fun this time of year, ditto Rome in July.
 
eghansen
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:42 am



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 15):
Depends where in Europe you plan to visit.

London is not much fun this time of year, ditto Rome in July.

My point was that all the European cities are cheap in October - mid December and January - Easter. It is also an easy time to use frequent flyer miles.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
MAH4546
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:36 am



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 14):
Judging from the fare sales in the winter months, all US-Europe route yields are weak during the winter. I usually make my annual trip to Europe in the winter because the air fares are less than half the summer fares. I have found bargain basement fares for many years running from SAN/LAX to FRA/LHR/CDG/AMS/ZRH/MXP for less than US$600 including taxes. And the airplanes are never very full.

Yes, it's true, because with some notable exceptions such as Calgary, Denver, and Miami, North America-Europe markets slow down significantly in the winter because travel originating from both sides peaks during the summer. With Calgary, Denver, and Miami, travel to Europe is strongest in the summer and from Europe it is strongest in the winter.

However, the Rome market, as well as Scotland, Madrid, and some other leisure-heavy markets, sees a significant drop in yields, unlike Frankfurt, London, Milan, and other stronger business markets. And, as a result, capacity to Rome during the summer typically decreases by quite a fair amount (although not as much these days as it used to).
a.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:23 am

Alitalia - Welcome to Groupe Air France.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
Aircellist
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:22 am



Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 9):
AF-KL-AZ's three hubs will be CDG, AMS and FCO.

If it happens, what a powerhouse that will be!

And imagine if they were to add IB to that !!!  Wow!


That would form the first truly European network carrier.

Even AA would feel small, facing this European giant.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
baw716
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:28 am

A couple of comments, since I used to work for AZ in SFO:

A daily LAX service will require two aircraft. The only aircraft in the fleet that can make that go (profitably) is the 777-200ER. To commit two 777s to LAX that are arguably going to be empty in the winter doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. However, AZ has been missing from the west coast since 2002 when it dropped the LAX-MXP service...it's time there was a direct service again. Unfortunately, I have to agree with most that LAX is a larger catchment area than SFO (at this point I don't see how a SFO-FCO could make money)....and with AS providing some feed from SFO, it could be a viable option for folks from the Bay Area. Before we had the direct SFO-MXP flight, we (AZ SFO) filled about 15-18% of the aircraft in passengers and about 25% of the cargo, so if the pax numbers from the Bay Area could be brought up, then the daily LAX-FCO could be doable. Unfortunately, yield will be a problem, since no one from the Bay Area will take AZ over LAX then FCO to Milan when they can take AF via CDG to LIN.

As to the bigger question, I believe MXP can be a useful airport with a higher speed rail link into the city. I've taken the MXP express into the city and it takes too long; if the trip can be made in 20 min vs. 45 minutes, then MXP could be the airport it could be. However, as people continue to say, it takes far too long to get to MXP vs. LIN. Frankly, I never have minded departing or arriving from MXP; unfortunately, the airport was too small to be a viable full hub for AZ.

I do hope that AF/KL can pull this off; AZs only hope is that they can stay in SkyTeam and if AF/KL can influence the Italian government to change some of its laws pertaining to unions, then perhaps there is a chance for AZ after all.
We shall have to see what develops.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
CPH757
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:37 am



Quoting SQ325 (Reply 3):
Milan is the economical Capital of Italy.

Hmm, I thought it was Palermo  Wink
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
varig md-11
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:08 am

if they launch a daily LAX-FCO and the new boss really makes FCO a hub, the LAX AZ flight could be viable if they organise connections with flights from the mediterranean area to which FCO is "natural" hub

= Turkey,Greece, Balkan area, Egypt, Romania, Russia?

they have to find a way in that direction, otherwise I don't see a a pure FCO-LAX flight viable, the more so if you have to fill a 772ER
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Beaucaire
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:24 am

One issue never comes to public is the difficult weather conditions in Milan in autumn and winter-
Many days you have fog disrupting flights ,making detours to Venice or Genova necessary.
True that Milan is the economic capital of Italy but also the fog-hole of Europe..
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
787kq
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:48 pm



Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 9):
MXP cannot be left as a white elephant
it's up to the Milan area authorities to find incentives for foreign carriers to fill the AZ void

I cannot recall the specific source but believe it was an Airports story on Malpensa. The airport said they were not too worried about the possible failure of the Alitalia hub since they will still get lots of others to fill the gap. I believe that Alitalia's dominance of the airport is not overwhelming.
 
Farnborough24
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:27 pm

Just regarding the AF/KL/AZ linkup, will it be possible under EU competition laws to merge AZ into the equation as some people seem to believe is going to happen? I don't know if anyone out there knows more than me, but it would seem surprising if that would be allowed. As for the poster who suggested IB joining that group-it'll never happen. IB is already tied up with BA/oneworld, and I have my doubts re. competition laws and AZ linking up with AF/KL, let alone another Euopean major. Also, AF/KL are hugely profitable and successful, running from two fine established hubs. Can somebody tell me what exactly they are going to gain from shelling out huge amounts of money to take over an airline that doesn't appear to give them an awful lot? Just from all I've read it seems Alitalia is chronically mismanaged, crippled by militant unions and will always suffer the disadvantage of operating from a country prone to heavy seasonality and low yields (when compared to LHR/CDG/FRA/AMS), so why would AF/KL want to risk sticking their oar in? I personally can't see what they would get out of, and if they did take over AZ I have my suspicions that they would reduce it to a handful of long haul routes (and I mean literally a handful of about 6 or 7) from FCO and then feed everyone else through AMS or CDG, which for purely interest value is not something I really want to see.
My Saab 9000-the chav eater!
 
nycfly75
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:10 pm

Az has started cancelling flights out of MXP from January:

Eliminated are:

Krakow is 3 dailyER4

Timisoara 3 daily ER4

Skopje is 1 daily ER4

and they have just pulled out of Sarajevo (1 daily ER4) at the end of October.
 
IL96M
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:58 pm

Unfortunately Italy remains a two-headed beast: there are those of us who need to get to Milan (and North of Italy) for work, family etc. and those who want to get to Rome (and Center/South of Italy) for [mostly] tourism.

Without opening a prolonged political discussion about Italy, its woes and its history, it is obvious that AZ is the aviation manifestation of the disastrous state of affairs of state-run and state-meddled enterprises through unions and civil servants. In any other country, AZ would be allowed to go bust as it should.

In a way AZ belongs in Rome, as like many fellow Milanese I won't miss them. I never use them as I prefer (as do most working people) reliability over nonstop (which, from 2008, there will be almost none at MXP). Even FR from BGY is better!

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 3):
Milan is the economical Capital of Italy.
Leaving MXP to the competetors doesn' t sound like a great move to me.
There have been some Rumors around that AirOne will get some A340 or 330s which would be a direct attack on a AZ FCO Hub and in addition an LH supported one.
Btw FCO is Chaos during the peak hours I'm not sure if AZ can fullfill costumers needs in order of a reliable connection network.

Completely agree. If AirOne can sieze the opportunity and make itself Milan's carrier as a private, rationally-run Lufthansa-backed airline, then I think everyone would welcome them in Milan.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 8):

MXP cannot be left as a white elephant
it's up to the Milan area authorities to find incentives for foreign carriers to fill the AZ void

Bring back UA!

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
That is true, but that's why Rome-USA yields are extremely weak during the winter months, although strong during the summer. Milan retains stronger yields year-round do to being Italy's business capital.

Exactly my point.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:59 pm



Quoting SQ325 (Reply 3):
Milan is the economical Capital of Italy.
Leaving MXP to the competetors doesn' t sound like a great move to me.

Except that MXP is NOT really in Milan... As long as they stay strong on LIN I don't see a problem.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 8):
MXP cannot be left as a white elephant

It already is and has almost always been...

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 10):
sort of in the way Mirabel was to Montreal.

And still is

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 18):
Alitalia - Welcome to Groupe Air France.

Who wants to bet on how long before the 767s are being replaced by 332s? I can see Airbus smiling about this merger on the way...
When I doubt... go running!
 
Rcardinale
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:04 pm

So from my understanding BOS is getting cut? I can assure you that another carrier will pick up a route to Italy from BOS by next summer DL or AA would be prime candidates or maybe NW
 
nycfly75
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:09 pm



Quoting Rcardinale (Reply 29):
So from my understanding BOS is getting cut? I can assure you that another carrier will pick up a route to Italy from BOS by next summer DL or AA would be prime candidates or maybe NW

Not from Rome.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:33 pm



Quoting Rcardinale (Reply 29):
So from my understanding BOS is getting cut? I can assure you that another carrier will pick up a route to Italy from BOS by next summer DL or AA would be prime candidates or maybe NW

BOS will still be flown from Rome. Though, regardless, AA would never bother to fill in the Boston-Italy market, which is notoriously low-yielding. Delta, maybe. They did announce BOS-FCO a few years ago, but never launched it.
a.
 
Rcardinale
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
AA would never bother to fill in the Boston-Italy market

Why not they have tried numerous European routes SNN, MAN, LHR, and CDG come to mind. Why not try it with a 757? But that doesn't matter because the route isn't being dropped

[Edited 2007-12-07 12:51:24]
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26286
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:33 pm



Quoting Rcardinale (Reply 32):

Why not they have tried numerous European routes SNN, MAN, LHR, and CDG come to mind. Why not try it with a 757? But that doesn't matter because the route isn't being dropped

BOS-SNN lasted roughly a year, yields were terrible. BOS-MAN has been discontinued, after a strong start, yields sunk heavily. BOS-CDG now only operates during the summer, but it does typically perform around break-even.

AA would never fly Boston-Italy. They would fly Miami-Italy first.
a.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:09 pm



Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 28):
As long as they stay strong on LIN I don't see a problem.

From what I can recall, it seems that the number of flights allowed to serve LIN has been very restricted. Is this because operating capacity is relatively limited...or a move to prop up MXP and cover the recent significant investments in facilities at Malpensa by artificially limiting movements at Linate?
 
nycfly75
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:38 pm

RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:10 am



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 34):
From what I can recall, it seems that the number of flights allowed to serve LIN has been very restricted. Is this because operating capacity is relatively limited...or a move to prop up MXP and cover the recent significant investments in facilities at Malpensa by artificially limiting movements at Linate?

It was all mostly to prop up Malpensa.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:12 am



Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 28):
Who wants to bet on how long before the 767s are being replaced by 332s? I can see Airbus smiling about this merger on the way...

While I love the 767 (and everything Boeing), the A332 could enable AZ to fly longer legs with cargo (US West Coast?)...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
nycflyer
Posts: 1288
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:49 am

A few weeks ago I went to an investor analyst meeting for Ryanair, with Michael O'Leary as the main speaker. He said FR would jump all over MXP in a heartbeat if AZ started selling its slots there.
 
nycfly75
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:38 pm

RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:11 pm



Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 37):
A few weeks ago I went to an investor analyst meeting for Ryanair, with Michael O'Leary as the main speaker. He said FR would jump all over MXP in a heartbeat if AZ started selling its slots there.

TrashAir and him can have the white elephant.
 
varig md-11
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:47 pm



Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 38):
TrashAir and him can have the white elephant.

 bigthumbsup   biggrin 

I luv the new name of Brian air  Wink
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nycfly75
Posts: 647
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:06 pm



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 39):
I luv the new name of Brian air  

TrashAir, RyanScare....they all fit the bill.
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1114
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:23 pm

Nevertheless, I checked MXP site quickly and in case of AZ long haul flight losses, EK SQ and Etihad are already there for traffic to the East and probably ready to increas capacity while AF's CDG is only one hour away for other destinations  Big grin  Cool

well of course it might hurt a bit "italian-ly" wise not to be able to fly on a national carrier long haul but MXP biz traveller will not end up isolated
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ContinentalEWR
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:33 pm

The solution for AZ is to fire all of its employees, shrink the carrier down, and rebuild it. They should be bought by an airline that is well run (AF/KL, AirOne). Until the unions and the government understand that AZ cannot and will not survive in its present hope, the alternative is to see AZ go the way of Sabena.

Frankly, I think AZ is a horrible airline, largely due to its employees (minus the pilots, who are fantastic) and you can blame AZ employees and the unions for the mess.
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1114
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:53 pm



Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 42):
The solution for AZ is to fire all of its employees

it's a bit brutal for the EU!!  crazy 
unless you reach a Sabena level, this isnt usual over here

on the side of this, a co-worker of mine grew up close to FCO: he told me how people, while at hi-school, were "promised" a job at AZ because their father/uncle/cousin was already working there or knew a FA or an Mx working there...he's nowadays in favor of your midwest-like solution of firin' everybody  dopey 
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commavia
Posts: 11489
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:08 pm

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 42):
The solution for AZ is to fire all of its employees, shrink the carrier down, and rebuild it. They should be bought by an airline that is well run (AF/KL, AirOne). Until the unions and the government understand that AZ cannot and will not survive in its present hope, the alternative is to see AZ go the way of Sabena.

Exactly.

This is beyond fixing. Just beyond. Period. End of story.

Sometimes, there is just no way to salvage something that is so far gone. This is one of those times. Alitalia should have gone away 20 years ago, but has been continually propped up, again and again. Now, it's time to change things once and for all: bring in people who know how to run an airline, ditch the unions, and build an airline that not only serves the needs of its home country, but is also economically viable (novel concept, right?).

Now, of course, this is much harder said than done: the Alitalia unions would rather see the company put into the ground than voluntarily give up the incredible socialist gravy train they've got going. And, since they own the Italian government, they know they can probably outlast anything Alitalia management - current or future - tries to "force" upon them.

So sad for such a wonderful country to have such a disgusting, pathetic embarrassment for a national airline.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 43):
he's nowadays in favor of your midwest-like solution of firin' everybody dopey

Indeed.

The Italians I know think Alitalia is a complete joke - they're probably even more in favor of grounding the company and starting over than I am, and that's pretty hard to do.

One Italian friend used to work for almost 10 years with Olympic Airways, back in the '60s and '70s. She said that Alitalia these days makes Olympic look efficient. Now, you know you have a problem when the Greeks are starting to look "efficient" to anyone, least of all the Italians!  Smile

[Edited 2007-12-09 05:09:23]
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1114
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RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:16 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 44):
She said that Alitalia these days makes Olympic look efficient. Now, you know you have a problem when the Greeks are starting to look "efficient" to anyone, least of all the Italians!

now you mention it, and a bit off AZ topic, a greek friend told me they have chosen to let OA die in Greece so sick and tired they are of the unworkable situation
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TX PY
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:33 pm



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 22):
if they launch a daily LAX-FCO and the new boss really makes FCO a hub, the LAX AZ flight could be viable if they organise connections with flights from the mediterranean area to which FCO is "natural" hub

= Turkey,Greece, Balkan area, Egypt, Romania, Russia?

they have to find a way in that direction, otherwise I don't see a a pure FCO-LAX flight viable, the more so if you have to fill a 772ER

You are absolutely correct. The only way that flight will be successful is to get high yield traffic on it. LAX-FCO is not a high yield market and because of no nonstop in the LAX-MXP market, AZ will not be any more competitive than anyone else flying to Milan...in fact, they may be less so because they have to to FCO then back up to LIN. So, traffic to the southern Med and Middle East (the high yield stuff) will be critical to make the flight succeed. This was the argument I was making in SFO, because of the UA gauntlet in the Bay Area, it was difficult capturing high yield traffic to MXP. We did better by, in addition to focusing on Milan O&D business traffic, the "natural" beyond traffic down to the southern Med and Middle East. Believe it or not, there is high yield traffic that goes in that direction and if the right fare level is offered, AZ can cherry pick passengers off of t he other guys who have to transit through much larger airports that are farther away from the final destination.

If you are flying from LAX to ATH, where would you rather make a change, LHR (4 hours away) or FCO (2 hours away)? Considering that LAX-FCO is only about an hour longer than the LAX-LHR...and in the summer, it's about an hour to a hour and a half less flying time.

Excellent observation Varig md-11

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
LawnDart
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:33 pm

RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:47 pm



Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 42):
The solution for AZ is to fire all of its employees, shrink the carrier down, and rebuild it.

Does the attitude of the employees reflect who they are inherently, or their reaction to years of poor management? If the latter, why not just fire the poor management?

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 42):
should be bought by an airline that is well run ... AF

You bring up a good comparison...it wasn't so long ago that Air France was the joke of European aviation...with militant unions going on strike every other month, poor management and frequent bailouts by the government. Their service reliability and reputation left a lot to be desired...10 years later, and you hold them up as a model of an airline that is well run. I agree...however, they did it by introducing good management (I'd wager that many of the "bad" employees are still around and behaving as model citizens...).

Quoting Commavia (Reply 44):
This is beyond fixing. Just beyond. Period. End of story.

Sometimes, there is just no way to salvage something that is so far gone. This is one of those times. Alitalia should have gone away 20 years ago, but has been continually propped up, again and again. Now, it's time to change things once and for all: bring in people who know how to run an airline, ditch the unions, and build an airline that not only serves the needs of its home country, but is also economically viable (novel concept, right?).

Well, the example of Air France above, and (listen up, ContinentalEWR)...Continental here in the US, shows that even though things may appear to be too far gone, that isn't necessarily the case. CO should've gone under years ago, but here they are today...held up as an example of one of the best US-based network carriers.

Amazing how good management can motivate a disheartened workforce into acheiving something seemingly beyond hope. I hope AZ's workforce gets the chance to redeem their carrier's reputation.
 
LIPZ
Posts: 565
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:29 am

RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:39 pm

MXP-PVG route will be discontinued as of January 15, 2008
 
flyyul
Topic Author
Posts: 4460
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: Alitalia: MXP Closure And Other Network Items

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:46 pm

Next one's on that list... MXP-DEL and MXP-BOM

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