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scbriml
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Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:57 pm

Boeing's Scott Carson said they could produce a "design template" within 18 months, for commercialisation around 2015.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/.../business/EU-FIN-France-Boeing.php




[There was another thread about this, but it seems to have gone away.]
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Rheinbote
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:13 pm

Makes me wonder how many Boeing FUD blurbs like that we may have to endure until then...

The idea of an A320NG sporting geared turbofans is quite intriguing, isn't it?
 
meta
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:14 pm

Which airlines are in most dire need of a 737 replacement? How many would they order?
 
bennett123
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:20 pm

Why did he give the interview to a French paper, not one in the US.
 
HOOB747
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:23 pm

Would the replacement be composite, like the 787? Will this hurt their sales of the current swift selling latest generation 737s as their replacement is proffered? Boeing can't make a mistake considering such a huge market for the aircraft type.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:25 pm

Airlines tend to be conservative in nature, though they have embraced CFRP. As such, one would expect more to want the "traditional" model, especially because they have embraced CFRP.
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:28 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 3):
Why did he give the interview to a French paper, not one in the US.

IHT is French? Learn something new every day. Interesting that it also says Associated Press.

Maybe Scott Carlson was in France so that is where he gave the interview.

The question is will this be a double aisle aircraft? Didn't WN want something like that?
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:35 pm

Things I am waiting for an answer:
  • Cabin width - either 3-3 or 2-2-2, hopefully 2-2-2. The cabin will most likely be wider than the 737 or A320, however, if the family is split into two, the smaller variants (737-700 size and smaller) can use a narrower cabin and the larger variants (737-800 size and larger) can use a wider cabin.
  • Engine manufacturers - CFM has already proposed a new engine, currently known as the LEAP56. Still no word on whether RR and P&W will produce their engines independently or via IAE.
  • Number of engine options - one, two, or three? While the market could support three engine manufacturers, offering only one or two options could reduce production costs. This was a major factor in offering only two options for the 787 (GE and RR).
  • Engine/tail layout - either a conventional tail with wing-mounted engines, or a T-tail with rear-mounted engines. The layout with the conventional tail and wing mounted engines is probably more economical in terms of maintenance costs, however, would require a taller landing gear for the larger engines. The T-tail/rear engine layout will allow the fuselage to be lower to the ground, however, is probably less economical in terms of maintenance costs due to the greater complexity of a T-tail.


[Edited 2007-12-06 14:36:29]
 
bennett123
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:42 pm

Centrair

The initial source was Le Monde.

1337Delta764

Personally, I do not see a B737 sized wide body
 
david31998
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:45 pm

Pushing the limits of new technology for the 737 replacement will distance Boeing from others who want into the 150 seat market. The Chinese desperately want to develop large planes (the government has clearly said so) and were hoping to have a B737/A320 competitor within the next decade or so. Airbus must respond. But if Boeing moves forward on this and gets it right (and I am confident they will), they will create an even larger technological gap than currently exists between themselves and China and other potential competitors.
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:06 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Cabin width - either 3-3 or 2-2-2, hopefully 2-2-2

There is a slight issue with a 2-2-2 cabin.

Say the coach seats will be like the ones in the 767, where a pair of seats measures 42 inches of width armrest-to-armrest. Throw in two aisles at 19 inches of width each. The 2-2-2 cabin needs to be then 42 times 3 plus 19 times 2 = 164 in wide.

Take that cabin, make an aisle disappear into a 3-3 configuration with a 20 in wide aisle. There are another 18 inches of width to distribute to 6 seats, or 3 inches of width per seat. That would make a very nice seat.

Is personal space more important than aisle access in an airplane? I think so. Passengers and airlines would prefer that very same cross section with a 3-3 config.
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Rheinbote
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:12 pm

Sounds a little more concrete in Financial Times
http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage...ws_id=fto120620071745577131&page=2

"The programme could be started in about 18 months, aimed at achieving entry into commercial service around 2015."

That's 5 1/2 years from launch to EIS? Do they back off the fast-track development that didn't quite work out for the 787?

"However the group was also looking at launching a programme to develop a new wide-bodied aircraft by 2012 aimed for entry into commercial service by 2020."

That's a whopping 8 years. Sloppy journalism?
 
osiris30
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:13 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
if the family is split into two, the smaller variants (737-700 size and smaller) can use a narrower cabin and the larger variants (737-800 size and larger) can use a wider cabin.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Engine/tail layout - either a conventional tail with wing-mounted engines, or a T-tail with rear-mounted engines. The layout with the conventional tail and wing mounted engines is probably more economical in terms of

If you get two, my money is on the smaller of the two being a T-tail 717/dc-9 style aircraft, and the large a more 'traditional' under wing arrangement. I see a 2-2-2 and a 3-2 offering. I would expect the 2-2-2 would be announced first and the 3-2 only launched if airlines show the interest for it.

Interestingly, with CFRP a T-Tail may not have *some* of the disadvantages in terms of weight that their AL breathren had.
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:16 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Cabin width - either 3-3 or 2-2-2, hopefully 2-2-2

I think you'll be disappointed: from the article:

"Last month, Carson told the Gulf News that even the technology of the new single-aisle model"

I believe that the timeframe for this a/c is entirely powerplant dependant. Until GE/PW/RR step up and convince A and B that they have a game-changing propulsion system then A and B will be reluctant to publicly sacrifice the cash cows that are the 737 and A320. Conversations with airlines and key industry players about potential developments are always happening.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
if the family is split into two

I'm really not sure that this is a possibility given the investments that are being made in 787, 748, XWB etc....I'd suggest that an airframe that stretches from 130 to 220 seats is much more likely, with the sub 130 market being addressed by a wider range of airframe manufacturers (including Bombardier, Embraer, Sukhoi etc). Not sure if the big two would fancy that particular scrap?
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:19 pm

The 737 will be all composite. No way it will be aluminum skinned. Think of all the experience Boeing has on designing building CFRP now, and its much less labor intensive to let the machines wrap it bake it, and cut all the holes/openings... plus it should last more cycles than and Aluminum jet.

It could share the interior with the 787, so no need to design a new one. Boeing should also use the same electronic touch dim windows.

I think it should be 2-3-2. Wide enough to hold more freight than the 737, but not inefficient like a 2-2-2 would be ( even though all pax on earth would prefer 2-2-2 )

I think Boeing should decide by 2010, roll it out in 2015; it gives the engine manufacturers 5 or 6 years time to really improve smaller turbofan efficiency.

I like the under-wing engine idea, for 1 plane or the 2 different models. If its a question of making the main fan bigger, just raise up the landing gear about 2 feet higher.
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:27 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 14):
I like the under-wing engine idea, for 1 plane or the 2 different models. If its a question of making the main fan bigger, just raise up the landing gear about 2 feet higher.

With CFRP it may be cheaper from a structural perspective to go T-Tail than increase the landing gear length that much.. just my 2 cents on the issue.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:32 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 3):
Why did he give the interview to a French paper, not one in the US.



Quoting Centrair (Reply 6):
IHT is French? Learn something new every day. Interesting that it also says Associated Press.

Not really a French paper:

..... today the IHT is owned by The New York Times Company and continues to expand the reach of its authoritative journalism through the newspaper which is sold in 180 countries and via computers and mobile devices at IHT.com.

The New York Times Company (NYSE: NYT), a leading media company with 2005 revenues of $3.4 billion, includes The New York Times, the International Herald Tribune, The Boston Globe, 15 other daily newspapers, nine network-affiliated television stations, two New York City radio stations and 35 Web sites, including NYTimes.com, Boston.com and About.com. The Company's core purpose is to enhance society by creating, collecting and distributing high-quality news, information and entertainment.

Over the years, The Times Company's properties have been awarded many journalism awards, including a total of 116 Pulitzer prizes, more than any other news organization.

http://www.ihtinfo.com/pages/ab_about.html
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:34 pm

IMO, a replacement for the B737 will be a single type, to create what would be substancially two types to replace one would surely be expensive and pointless.

Clearly it will maximise use of B787 technology, (so it will be composite), unless there are problems with use of composites that have not been identified. Equally, I would expect use of the B787 interior, (including cockpit, to allow a common type certificate).

As far as layout is concerned, I expect 3 3, (but if we are talking about a wider fuselage then 2 3 2 is possible). However, given that the smallest model is 130 seater, I still have my doubts.

I think that either configuration is possible. IMO it will depend if we are talking about a Propfan, (which would require a T tail. If not, then ease of maintenance suggests underwing.
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:41 pm



Quoting Meta (Reply 2):
Which airlines are in most dire need of a 737 replacement? How many would they order?

I am willing to bet that WN would be a very significant launch customer

Quoting HOOB747 (Reply 4):
Would the replacement be composite, like the 787

I would think so. It is progress after all. Lighter, less mx intensive etc etc...

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
or a T-tail with rear-mounted engines

I was pretty sure that the t-tail concepts is dead.... It would be interesting to see a new a t-tailNG although i strongly believe it will be under wing engines...
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:44 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Cabin width - either 3-3 or 2-2-2, hopefully 2-2-2.

 no  I would bet a twelve-pack of Magic Hat #9, deliverable when you're old enough to legally either buy or drink it, against this prospect.  drunk 

The 737NG already competes evenly (broadly speaking) with the A320 despite some older technology precisely by being narrower and lighter. 2-2-2, while it may slightly help turn times for operators like FR and WN, presents a huge cost in terms of weight and frontal area, for no particular gain in capacity.

[speculation]

I expect 737RS to be a 3-3 narrowbody with underwing engines, with only minor differences in concept from existing aircraft. I expect it will have a very similar cabin width to the current A320, but with interior design rather different from any existing narrowbody. Like the 787, I would expect it would be built with the wings as high as possible to allow for physically larger engines with the shortest possible landing gear. I would expect to see a streamlined 787-like nose and empennage. The big question in my mind is not in the passenger compartment, but in the hold: will Boeing stretch the fuselage vertically a bit to allow for single-file LD3s below? That could help with the landing gear/ground clearance issue and give the 737RS yet another advantage over the existing products, if the cost in terms of additional structural weight and frontal area isn't too high.

I don't expect two fuselages, but I do wonder about two related but different wings, because the roles 737RS is expected to fill will be wildly divergent. On the one extreme, you need a plane built for WN: 149 pax in a relatively spacious all-Y configuration with 2500 nm effective range. On the other, you need a 757-200 replacement: 200 or more pax in a 2-class configuration with 4000+ nm range, heavy lift capability for a narrowbody, and killer hot/high performance. It seems to me that any wing that could cope with the latter would be hopeless overkill for the former.

So maybe the lineup could be as follows:

737RS-7: lighter wing, 149 pax 1-class, 3200 nm (slightly larger than 73G)
737RS-8: lighter wing, 199 pax 1-class, 2600 nm (slightly larger than 738, lighter, with shorter range)
737RS-8ER: heavier wing, uprated engines, 4600 nm, hot and high performance, good platform for BBJ, replacement for current 752s where they are used for high performance, but hopefully with 738 or better costs
737RS-9: heavier wing, ~220 pax 2-class, 4000 nm, slightly larger and more economical 752 replacement

[/speculation]
 
fruitbat
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:52 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 17):
I think that either configuration is possible. IMO it will depend if we are talking about a Propfan, (which would require a T tail. If not, then ease of maintenance suggests underwing

Under- (or even over-) wing propfans are a possibility at this distance. It just depends on the weight / SFC / performance trades that need to be made, and the dia of the propfan that's required. Take a look at the dia of the GE36 and imagine it reversed ("puller" not "pusher") and mounted under-wing. Not impossible....check out the AN-70 and the D-27's......
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:53 pm



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 11):
That's 5 1/2 years from launch to EIS (for the 737RS)? Do they back off the fast-track development that didn't quite work out for the 787?

Or RR and PW won't have their GTFs ready by then. CFM would likely have the LEAP56 available earlier, but it may not have the numbers the GTFs do in terms of efficiency. As such, it might be the "fallback" engine if the GTFs fail or it would be the "safe" choice and one or the other GTF would be chosen as the "option" engine.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 11):
That's a whopping 8 years (for the Y3). Sloppy journalism?

Or just what Boeing feels doing a proper 10-abreast 777/747 replacement will take if the market will justify such an investment.
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:07 am

Dtwclipper

Did you read reply 8?.  Smile
 
fruitbat
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:08 am

6 months old but summarises the issues and current thinking quite nicely...

http://www.flightglobal.com/falanding_214519.htm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Or RR and PW won't have their GTFs ready by then

This article suggests that (as of 6 mths ago) RR weren't convinced about GTF's.......it appears to be a furrow that PW ploughs alone at this time..........
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art
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 11):
That's 5 1/2 years from launch to EIS (for the 737RS)? Do they back off the fast-track development that didn't quite work out for the 787?

Or RR and PW won't have their GTFs ready by then.

Report on ATWonline.com says that PW's GTF is getting close to flight testing. If lack of a suitably improved engine for the new generation A & B narrow bodies was holding things back, is that holdup about to disappear?

"Pratt & Whitney said its Geared Turbofan demonstrator engine "successfully completed its first series of engine runs, reaching full power [of] 30,000 lb. thrust" at the company's test facility in West Palm Beach. The GTF has been selected as the exclusive engine for the proposed Mitsubishi Regional Jet and has been chosen by Bombardier for its planned CSeries 110/130-seat jet family (ATWOnline, Nov. 14). Both aircraft are scheduled to enter service in 2013.

Ground tests will run through May after which flight testing commences on Pratt's 747 flying testbed."

http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=12%2F5%2F2007

[Edited 2007-12-06 16:13:30]
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:29 am



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 19):
I expect 737RS to be a 3-3 narrowbody with underwing engines, with only minor differences in concept from existing aircraft. I expect it will have a very similar cabin width to the current A320, but with interior design rather different from any existing narrowbody. Like the 787, I would expect it would be built with the wings as high as possible to allow for physically larger engines with the shortest possible landing gear. I would expect to see a streamlined 787-like nose and empennage.

You describe my prediction exactly. Furthermore, I expect there to be a pleasing, but vague resemblance to the 757. I also think that from a distance, it will be very difficult to differentiate it from a 787 without having a reference for scale.

I hope that it will be designed so that the -8 and-9 variants will have an extra lav amidships like the 752. I expect the fuselage to be significantly wider than the 737's. The 737 fuselage dates back to the 707 (all Boeing narrow-body jets [other than the 717, which was never really Boeing] have had a 707 cross-section). It's time for Boeing to change it to bring it more in line with Airbus. A 2-2-2 configuration is out of the question; too wasteful (but would be nice! Along with a hot-tub and on-board massages!).

I disagree with you that the interior design of the cabin will be that radically different. Oh, it'll be white with pretty curves and cute LED light effects all over the place, I'm sure. But it'll be three seats on each side sitting under a row of luggage bins. There's just not another good way to go about it. I do expect it to have a lower cabin altitude and better humidity control than anything currently flying, and I hope it has the new electronic windows.

And it'll be QUIET. I bet you'll barely hear the thing taking off.

Oh, it's fun to fantasize about exotic rear-mounted engine schemes and a 727NG-type aircraft, but it ain't gonna happen. First of all, rear-mounting the engines makes it less likely that they'll ingest FOD, and so the 727 was designed for operation off of semi-prepared airfields. The 737RS won't be designed for that since those fields are very rare nowadays for that type of service. The under-wing design makes maintenance easier, makes design upgrade of the aircraft for new engine types easier (can you imagine designing a 727 to have modern turbofan engines?), is aerodynamically more stable (engines on the CG for), and is time-tested.

It's gonna be an underwing twin. Deal with it.  Smile
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flipdewaf
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:24 am

You never know, they might do something surprising and go for a modular design  Silly .

It'll be a tube with wings, they all are and like all the others it'll have 2 engines under the wings and it'll be made of plastic and you'll all say its a "game changer". It'll be late as well or over budget or both, they always are. non of this 2-2-2 jazz, that makes about as much sense as putting a piano in a 747. I expect it to go slightly slower than the 737NG. I don't think the fan diameter will be much larger than it is now but it may well have more gulled type wings to keep the gear short a la A380. We may well see some increased cooling techniques for quicker cooling of engines between flights  Wink . The engines will likely have a power generator on each spool of the engine (not saying it will be bleedless but there will be electrical power taken) so each spool can have its speed regulated by the generator  Wink . Almost like the GTF idea  Wink . Don't count on there being too many nozzle guide vanes either.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
I disagree with you that the interior design of the cabin will be that radically different. Oh, it'll be white with pretty curves and cute LED light effects all over the place

True dat! But they'll come up with some stupid name for it like "envirolight-making you feel in touch with the plane" with an ad of a woman closing her eyes as she reclines her seat.

seriously though it'll just look like a little 787 although id kill myself with laughter if they made an aluminium, high wing turboprop.

Fred
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dl767captain
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:40 am

Right now i truly see the 737RS being a scaled down 787. Its the easiest way to do it and get efficency. Much like they could do by scaling up the 787 to become a 777NG.

But i see 2 variants. One to cover the 737-800 and smaller, and one to cover the 737-900 to the 757-300. In this upper size we could see even a 2-3-2 but most likely a 2-2-2 which would be nice for everyone. One aisle on long flights (which this variant could be used for) is just annoying. 2 Aisles is optimal. For the smaller a 3-3 works great. It just depends on how small they go, i could see them offering a DC-9 replacement and a 717 replacement, might be a T-tail, just depends on how economical that will be. I doubt we will see them moving into the CRJ or E jet area, but they will need something right above the E-190 and C-series to catch the airlines that need something more.

I am really interested to see what the airlines mean when they say "more radical design" could be a very interesting plane, but truly i see a 737 replacement and a true 757 replacement
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:42 am



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Engine/tail layout - either a conventional tail with wing-mounted engines, or a T-tail with rear-mounted engines. The layout with the conventional tail and wing mounted engines is probably more economical in terms of maintenance costs, however, would require a taller landing gear for the larger engines. The T-tail/rear engine layout will allow the fuselage to be lower to the ground, however, is probably less economical in terms of maintenance costs due to the greater complexity of a T-tail.

When Boeing was designing the 737 they were going to use a T-tail like the 727, but Joe Sutter did some figuring and discovered that by putting the engines on the wings they could carry an extra 12 passengers over the T-tail version with the same weight and fuselage length. While the engines they were using then were much smaller diameter and thus the landing gear length question did not enter, the basic constraints I still believe will favor underwing engines. 12 passengers on the original 737 was quite a big deal; the advantage with modern (i.e. large diameter) turbofans and composite construction will be proportionately less, but I believe it will still exist. I would be very surprised to see Boeing ever build a rear-engined T-tail airliner again.
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platinumfoota
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:47 am

Replace the 737?? How about a REAL replacement for the 757!!  banghead 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:59 am

Expect the seating arrangements to be just like the current 737 with 3 variants in capacity to replace 737 and 757. Boeing will get a one two punch with this next airplane.

[Edited 2007-12-06 18:00:15]
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:26 am



Quoting Meta (Reply 2):
Which airlines are in most dire need of a 737 replacement? How many would they order?

Herb Kelleher (WN) was at the rollout of the 5,000th 737 and stated that if Boeing built a 737 from 787 technology, he'd buy 250 on the spot.

Quoting HOOB747 (Reply 4):
Would the replacement be composite, like the 787? Will this hurt their sales of the current swift selling latest generation 737s as their replacement is proffered?

It would certainly hurt sales of the 737NG, but it's a lot better to have your favorite product competing with another one of your own products, rather than your competitors' products.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 11):
"The programme could be started in about 18 months, aimed at achieving entry into commercial service around 2015."

That's 5 1/2 years from launch to EIS? Do they back off the fast-track development that didn't quite work out for the 787?

Program start and launch aren't the same thing. The program usually starts about a year before official launch.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 14):
( even though all pax on earth would prefer 2-2-2 )

Not me. Take that same fuselage and use 3-3 and you get a huge seat. I care a whole lot more about the space available to me in my seat than I do about aisle proximity.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 17):
Clearly it will maximise use of B787 technology, (so it will be composite), unless there are problems with use of composites that have not been identified.

It's not a given that composites will scale down to the 737 size in all applications. Wings almost certainly, but fuselage skins is a little less clear. The skin gauge could become so small that you'd bump up against durability issues.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
I hope that it will be designed so that the -8 and-9 variants will have an extra lav amidships like the 752.

The 787 was built to allow very flexible lav placement, so it's a good bet they'd carry that over to the 737 replacement. Whether a lav actually goes in that spot is totally up to the airline.

Tom.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:36 am



Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 29):
Replace the 737?? How about a REAL replacement for the 757!!

Read the posts above (along with about 8,000,000 other threads on this topic)... expect the 737 replacement to grow. Many people expect the largest 737RS variant(s) to be proper 757 replacements, with more size and capability than a 737-900ER or A321. Some even think 737RS could have the potential to grow to near 757-300 size (I don't think so... Boeing will try to sell those operators a 787-3 instead).
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:56 am



Quoting Dl767captain (Reply 27):
Right now i truly see the 737RS being a scaled down 787. Its the easiest way to do it and get efficency. Much like they could do by scaling up the 787 to become a 777NG.

 yes 

Most likely this will be the case and she'll likely look similar to this:

Big version: Width: 437 Height: 285 File size: 19kb
Boeing 737RS Concept
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:14 am



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 26):
I expect it to go slightly slower than the 737NG.

What? No Chance.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 26):
I don't think the fan diameter will be much larger than it is now

Of course it will.

Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 29):
Replace the 737?? How about a REAL replacement for the 757!!

The 737 market is more important than the 757 market, but maybe the larger variants will do 757 missions, who knows, maybe they'll do current 757 missions even better.
 
HUbsnotDubs
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:19 am

Why not mount the engines on top of the wing?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:21 am



Quoting HUbsnotDubs (Reply 35):
Why not mount the engines on top of the wing?

Maintenance is much harder. It might also affect the wing's effectiveness.
 
osiris30
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:22 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
First of all, rear-mounting the engines makes it less likely that they'll ingest FOD, and so the 727 was designed for operation off of semi-prepared airfields. The 737RS won't be designed for that since those fields are very rare nowadays for that type of service. The under-wing design makes maintenance easier, makes design upgrade of the aircraft for new engine types easier (can you imagine designing a 727 to have modern turbofan engines?), is aerodynamically more stable (engines on the CG for), and is time-tested.

I'm going to argue with you there because I could see the 'small' 737 going further down than current 737's go if they adopt a 5 wide approach. Let's not forget Africa is likely to become a growing buyer during the life cycle of these aircraft, and they still have lots of FOD.

Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 29):
Replace the 737?? How about a REAL replacement for the 757!!

This is why there is so much debate about 2 737 replacements.. to allow Boeing to have an offering from 100ish seats through the 757 area.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
It's not a given that composites will scale down to the 737 size in all applications. Wings almost certainly, but fuselage skins is a little less clear. The skin gauge could become so small that you'd bump up against durability issues.

That's the whole reason why composites are likely to be a player in the short-haul, high-cycle world.. they 'mature' more gracefully than AL (supposedly). Weight is less of an issue at that size as the other components make up more of the weight by % but the lifetimes for CFRP should be higher in terms of cycles.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:35 am



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 34):
Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 26):
I expect it to go slightly slower than the 737NG.

What? No Chance.

I mean only by about 0.02 mach but it will have a far superior (more efficient) climb phase.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 34):
I don't think the fan diameter will be much larger than it is now

Of course it will.

I don't think a large fan will help, particularly because of the short sectors it will likely do. Bigger isn't always better.

Fred
Image
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:40 am



Quoting Meta (Reply 2):
Which airlines are in most dire need of a 737 replacement? How many would they order?

Pick one. The order books will be full for a decade. The question will be how to keep up.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Cabin width - either 3-3 or 2-2-2, hopefully 2-2-2.

3+3 and 2+3+2

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
Personally, I do not see a B737 sized wide body

2+3+2 for the 180 and 230 seater.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:57 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Herb Kelleher (WN) was at the rollout of the 5,000th

I like Herb Kelleher, when he talks like that.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:02 am



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 39):
2+3+2 for the 180 and 230 seater.

Boeing tried this. It was called the 767-200. Pax love it but it was somewhat inefficient even when it was introduced and has remained one of the least efficient widebodies of its generation. Today, the only mission on which the 767-200 really makes sense is one with lots of high-paying, picky premium pax. That's why we see them on AA's flagship transcons, on CO's heaviest J routes, and as the darling of startup all-business airlines.

2-3-2 is space-inefficient on both the pax and cargo decks. Too much space is wasted by aisles upstairs. Downstairs, the hold is too wide for single-file LD3s but too narrow for two-abreast LD3s.

I can't imagine Boeing will make the same mistake again, especially after discovering how much more efficient the 757-300 turned out to be than the 767-200, even though it carries more pax. I am completely convinced that all models of the 737 replacement will share the same 3-3 fuselage.
 
albird87
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:12 am



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Cabin width - either 3-3 or 2-2-2, hopefully 2-2-2. The cabin will most likely be wider than the 737 or A320, however, if the family is split into two, the smaller variants (737-700 size and smaller) can use a narrower cabin and the larger variants (737-800 size and larger) can use a wider cabin.

I can hardly see a widebody replacement for the 737. It would be a lot heavier and wider than exisitng models.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Engine/tail layout - either a conventional tail with wing-mounted engines, or a T-tail with rear-mounted engines

Again i cant see T tail as If I Recal Correctly... these are harder to maintain.

Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 29):
Replace the 737?? How about a REAL replacement for the 757!!

What i see B doing is using both the airframes of the 737 and 757 to make the Y1 and using a great wing design and different styles (but keeping it very similar for pilots and cockpit regonition) to see a replacement for both the 737 and the great 757
 
siromega
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:24 am



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 19):

737RS-7: lighter wing, 149 pax 1-class, 3200 nm (slightly larger than 73G)
737RS-8: lighter wing, 199 pax 1-class, 2600 nm (slightly larger than 738, lighter, with shorter range)
737RS-8ER: heavier wing, uprated engines, 4600 nm, hot and high performance, good platform for BBJ, replacement for current 752s where they are used for high performance, but hopefully with 738 or better costs
737RS-9: heavier wing, ~220 pax 2-class, 4000 nm, slightly larger and more economical 752 replacement

For the most part, I think these numbers are right on (my only quibble is with the -9, I expect it to have less range - closer to 3500nm).

I used to be a fan of the two cross-section idea, but with fuel prices going up, you want to get the most out of your AC and I dont see anyone going smaller than a 73G. It does doesn't make sense to haul a big plane around for anything less than 125 passengers. People may want to point at an MD80 seat-for-seat replacement, but I think AA wouldn't mind something larger than that.
 
cloudy
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:42 am



Quoting Albird87 (Reply 42):
I can hardly see a widebody replacement for the 737. It would be a lot heavier and wider than exisitng models.

With a composite airframe, the fuselage skin is not as thick. With a plane only a little wider than the A320, one could easily have 2-2-2 seating. This would be highly desirable from a revenue standpoint, and it would allow faster loading and unloading.

It would be inefficient in the smallest sizes, however. Boeing will have to decide between abandoning the 757 sized market, abandoning the 737-600/A318/717 market, making two new airframes, or having a partner build the lower end plane. My hunch is the last option is most likely. For example, Boeing makes a deal with Bombardier to go in with them on the C-Series, sharing financing and giving it as much commonality with Y3 as possible. In that case, the smallest Y3 would be the size of a 737-800, and the largest would be about 20-40 seats smaller than the 787-8. The C series is 3-2, so Y3 could be 2-2-2.

In my view, it is a given that Y3 will offer a varient in the 737-800 - 757 size range. The big decision Boeing has to make is whether and how to stay in the 737-600 sized market.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:59 am



Quoting SirOmega (Reply 43):
People may want to point at an MD80 seat-for-seat replacement, but I think AA wouldn't mind something larger than that.

The -7 I'm imagining is almost exactly the size of an MD-80. AA has 136 seats in a 2-class configuration in their MD-80s. They could fit 145 in a single-class configuration with their Y pitch.

But I actually think, if AA were to buy a big batch of the planes I'm imagining, they would find a use for all four versions. They could use the -7 as a straight MD-80 and 738 replacement, capable of transcons or shorter flights as needed. The -8 (light) could serve as an MD-80 replacement allowing for some expansion or frequency consolidation (and with MUCH lower operating cost), or as a replacement for 752s that are currently being abused on shorter routes. The heavy -8ER could do TATL service, the most operationally difficult transcons, and the hot-and-high missions to Mexico and certain Central/South American destinations. The -9 could replace 752s on the busiest transcon and Latin America routes, and eventually (if one were able to dress up the premium cabins enough) the transcon 762ERs.
 
smed63
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:02 am

Flipdewaf, thanks for a really good laugh on these couple of lines from your posts. It's been a very long day at work (including a trip from DTW-ORD on UA) and this was exactly what I needed to end my day.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 26):
It'll be a tube with wings, they all are and like all the others it'll have 2 engines under the wings and it'll be made of plastic and you'll all say its a "game changer". It'll be late as well or over budget or both, they always are. non of this 2-2-2 jazz, that makes about as much sense as putting a piano in a 747.



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 26):
But they'll come up with some stupid name for it like "envirolight-making you feel in touch with the plane" with an ad of a woman closing her eyes as she reclines her seat.

It's these types of elements that we don't talk about nearly enough when it comes to the 737 replacement.  Smile
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:10 am

Boeing will never do a 2-2-2. It's a pipe dream and people should forget about it.

A 2-2-2 seats the same amount of pax as the current 737, but with more wasted space ( an extra aisle )
Boeing isnt going to make a CFRP jet with much more efficient engines and then kill all that new efficiency to carry around an extra aisle.

Odds are it will be 3-3, but could Boeing make a new different side fuselage profile that could allow a 2-3-2 ? What are strengths and weaknesses of 2-3-2 vs. 3-3 ?

One thing is for sure Boeing should plane and announce al the 737 variations at the same time; a complete family of planes from the start like Airbus did with the A350XWB.
 
ckfred
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:59 am

Remember that Boeing came out with the 737NG line, because operators of 737 Classics, as well as airlines looking to replace 727s, wanted a plane that flew faster and higher. Also, Boeing sold both lines of 737s until order for the Classic line started to dwindle.

Even though 737NG sales are still quite good, and Boeing makes a lot of money because initial design costs go back to the 60s, Boeing isn't about to ignore customers who want to order large numbers of planes from an improved line of narrowbodies.

Operators of the 737, particularly in the U.S., fly every model from the -300 to the -900. In terms of size, it goes like this:

-500/-600 110 seats
-300/-700 125 seats
-400 140 seats
-800 150 seats
-900 165 seats

In addition, Boeing has to consider a narrowbody variant to replace the 757-200, which normally has 180 to 190 seats. So, how many variants can Boeing design?

I would argue that there is a large market for a plane between 100 and 120 seats. United still flies a lot of 737-500s, because the A318 can't fly the short hops as well as the -500. American has had scheduling difficulties since retiring the F100s, since it has nothing between the 70-sear CRJ and the 140-seat MD-80.

I know that Canadair has the CRJ900 and Embrear has the 170/190, but the CRJ900 only carries about 70 passengers in a 2-class configuration. The big Embrears are so different from the 135/140/145 that they must be regarded as a separate fleet.

Boeing ought to seriously consider designing a 110 seat airplane that would fly routes under 1500 statute miles and offer the same cockpit and performance characteristics of the larger variants. Airlines would save on maintenance, training, and crew costs, have more cargo capability, and offer first class for road warriors.
 
siromega
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:12 am



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 48):
American has had scheduling difficulties since retiring the F100s, since it has nothing between the 70-sear CRJ and the 140-seat MD-80.

That, I believe, is a pilots bargaining problem, and not a problem with there being a lack of suitable planes servicing that market. Boeing (or Airbus) for that matter coming out with a plane in the 120 seat range wont help the fact that AA has to pay the pilots a lot of money when compared to an Eagle pilot flying the 70-seat CRJ. I wonder what the total trip cost is for two 70 seat CRJs vs one 140 seat 738.

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