XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:10 am



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 38):
Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 34):
Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 26):
I expect it to go slightly slower than the 737NG.

What? No Chance.

I mean only by about 0.02 mach but it will have a far superior (more efficient) climb phase.

Nope, 0.00% chance of the 737RS being so much as 1/100 of a MPH slower than the 737NG. Why? WN, their number one customer wants MORE speed, and has many routes that the loss of a minute or two would dramatically lower the daily revenue since it would mean one less leg per day. Again, this is why WN wants more speed, as when you try to do 4 or 5 legs a day starting at one end of the nation and ending up on the other heading east bound, you need all the time you can get.

More over the 737RS WILL be doing more and more of the flights below 4,000nm as widebodys become optimized for longer haul flights and markets continue to fragment.
 
planemaker
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:01 am



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 97):
You don't think Russia or China will make an attempt at a narrow body in the next 10(ish) years?

No because within 10(ish) years they will still be using the SuperJet and ARJ as the platform for their +100-seat aircraft market, on the one hand, and they will be fully occupied meeting domestic requirements while designing below and above thier 100-seat baseline aircraft, on the other hand.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 97):
I know if I was trying to break into the commercial av game I would go after the NB market simply due to the sheer number of the things that are needed.

You would think but you don't see BBD nor EMB really rushing into that huge market for a reason. There is a lot of risk and market uncertainty.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 97):
Even if your product is slightly inferrior you could still move units due to demand and the 'majors' being sold out until the end of time.

Not with the SuperJet and ARJ as your 110- and possibly 130-seater. Furthermore, The 100-seat market will be fairly well served already with the E-jets, CRJ-1000, ARJ, SuperJet... and MRJ if launched. The 100-seat market may just eventually end up like the 50-seat market... especially with the inevitable industry consolidation.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 100):
Why? WN, their number one customer wants MORE speed, and has many routes that the loss of a minute or two would dramatically lower the daily revenue since it would mean one less leg per day.

Please check out WN's average flight distance. A minute slower will honestly not make any difference in the number of legs per day.
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:30 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 92):
Boeing doesn't do ugly airliners. Not their style.

I guess you've never seen the "fat Al" 737-100. Or the -377. Or the ugliest one Boeing ever built: the 747SP a.k.a. "B.U.F.F.".
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ckfred
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:52 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 99):
However, given the choice between a plane that offers the same speed and a 15% improvement in operating costs, and a plane that's 10% slower but offers a 25% improvement, I think I know which one the airlines would chose.

Don't you think that Boeing will come up with a 25% improvement in operating costs, AND keep the plane as fast, if not faster than the 737NG, maybe even matching the cruise speed of the 757?

After all, the 737-700 is more efficient than its predecessor, the 737-300, and the -700 beats the -300 in performance.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:04 pm



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 103):
Don't you think that Boeing will come up with a 25% improvement in operating costs, AND keep the plane as fast, if not faster than the 737NG, maybe even matching the cruise speed of the 757?

I'm certainly not saying it isn't possible, just that in order to achieve that level of improvement in operating cost, it may be necessary to fly a tad slower. It's my personal opinion that airlines would accept this as a compromise - what choice would they have?

As it happens, I think both Airbus and Boeing might struggle to come up with a plane that can best an A320 or 737NG by 25%.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 103):
After all, the 737-700 is more efficient than its predecessor, the 737-300, and the -700 beats the -300 in performance.

The cost of fuel is a huge pressure today. I believe the majority of airlines would take efficiency over speed.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:25 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 101):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 100):
Why? WN, their number one customer wants MORE speed, and has many routes that the loss of a minute or two would dramatically lower the daily revenue since it would mean one less leg per day.

Please check out WN's average flight distance. A minute slower will honestly not make any difference in the number of legs per day.

Wrong, Completely wrong. Its WN itself that has stated that they would like a faster plane than the 737NG citing the large number of segments a day and the long days they operate. It was specifically in reference to the small number of routes that are down to literally minutes of delay not made up in flight canceling the last segment it flys. WN employs some of the tightest scheduling around. More importantly the faster the plane in the air, the more planes that can go from 4 segments a day to 5. Which is free money.

They have made it clear to Boeing that speed on the ground is critical... and speed in the air is critical.... With a plane that is slower in either one a no sale.
 
ckfred
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:36 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 104):
The cost of fuel is a huge pressure today. I believe the majority of airlines would take efficiency over speed.

And the cost of labor is going to increase, since the unions are wanting to get back what they have given up since 9/11. And as XT6Wagon points out WN wants a plane that is faster than their 737-700s. Considering the size of the 737 fleet, it's pretty much whatever WN wants, WN gets.
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:45 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 73):
Maybe Boeing should buy Bombardier and use that company as a platform to do the smaller 100 / 125 pax model of the 737RS, then do the larger on themselves. Or maybe Boeing will buy Embraer and use them. Or Maybe Boeing could partner with Honda or the other Japanese 787 partners.

This is where my thinking has been for some time. Partner or buy a producer (low-cost) that builds / adapts a design that can have commonality around key characteristics such as cockpit and controls to minimize any costs to the operators.
 
planemaker
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:16 pm



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 105):
Wrong, Completely wrong. Its WN itself that has stated that they would like a faster plane than the 737NG citing the large number of segments a day and the long days they operate. It was specifically in reference to the small number of routes that are down to literally minutes of delay not made up in flight canceling the last segment it flys. WN employs some of the tightest scheduling around. More importantly the faster the plane in the air, the more planes that can go from 4 segments a day to 5. Which is free money.

Wrong, completely wrong.

WN has never said that they wanted a faster plane at the expense of fuel savings... WN can fly their 737s faster NOW if they wanted too but they don't because a) the extra minute or two saved is not outwieghed by the fuel savings, and b) they fly short sectors and spend more relative time in speed restricted airspace and a faster cruise segment isn't going to make a difference.

But more importantly your point is immaterial... where else is WN going to go when Boeing doesn't produce a "near-transonic" 737 for them, cause Airbus sure won't! Big grin
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
art
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:41 pm



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 106):
Considering the size of the 737 fleet, it's pretty much whatever WN wants, WN gets.

I get your point that WN has bought a lot of 737's but I have to ask how many? I guess that Boeing would be hoping to sell 4 or 5 or 6 thousand of the 737NG's successor. If WN was going to buy 2 or 3 thousand, I could see them being in a strong position to dictate that Boeing design something geared to suit their particular requirement as closely as possible. Otherwise, to me, it would not make sense to do WN's bidding unless WN's needs matched the needs of most potential customers.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:48 pm



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 106):
Considering the size of the 737 fleet, it's pretty much whatever WN wants, WN gets.

WN is a large customer, but at the end of the day, they are just one customer. All the other customers combined dwarf WN.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 108):
But more importantly your point is immaterial... where else is WN going to go when Boeing doesn't produce a "near-transonic" 737 for them, cause Airbus sure won't!

 checkmark 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:07 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 110):
All the other customers combined dwarf WN.

United Kingdom guy makes a good point there. They don't need to put all their eggs in a Southwest basket.

Airbus will never sell a plane to WN and that doesn't stop the A320 series from consistently outselling the 737, or having a larger backlog. Boeing should make a plane thats their best overall effort in terms of speed, fuel efficiency, MX ease., comfort etc.

Its hard to believe that Boeing could design an entire new narrowbody and not increase both speed and fuel efficiency. I think we'll see both.

What are the pros and cons of Boeing putting the exact same 787 interior flight deck in the 737RS. Would that be a good idea since by 2015 EIS the 787 flightdeck would be tested, upgraded where necessary and in full production ?
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:04 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 14):
I think it should be 2-3-2. Wide enough to hold more freight than the 737, but not inefficient like a 2-2-2 would be ( even though all pax on earth would prefer 2-2-2 )

If you do that, now you don't have a replacement for the 737, it is now in a differen market.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 90):
UA is not waiting for B or A to bite. By 2015 when Boeing is indicating earliest EIS (however, I believe that EIS will probably be later), the domestic scene will look very differently.

What will it look like IYHO?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 92):
One prediction I will make: It will be pretty. Boeing doesn't do ugly airliners. Not their style. Airbus doesn't seem to care if they build a bulbous-nosed whale, but Boeing makes 'em pretty.

You sure are right. Has anyone ever stared down the barrel of the A300? That thing sure is ugly. Check one out onA.net when they zoom the cockpit section. Thing looks pretty darn ugly.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 98):
As for speed, it's still an issue. If a crew can make up 10 or 15 minutes in the air, so that it can get into the gate on time or even a few minutes early, that means that the ground crew and gate agents can get the plane turned and pushed back on time, and the airline won't have to deal with any misconnects.

Getting in early isn't always a good thing. You ever sat waiting for a gate for up to 15-20 minutes because you got in early and they can't move you to an empty gate because there aren't any or the few empty ones are already spoken for. I just want to know exactly how much faster a commercial aircraft can go and be as economical as its counter part. What is the fastest commercial jet out right now (not the Concorde).

I think we will know more after the 787 actually makes it in the air and they can get some real hard numbers and base the design and progections off of that.
What gets measured gets done.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:46 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 110):
WN is a large customer, but at the end of the day, they are just one customer. All the other customers combined dwarf WN.

And there is enough customers that want exactly the same thing WN wants. Double so if it reduces the cost of the planes they buy.

Certainly the smallest of the 737RS "fatboy" will be a bit larger than WN wants but they won't complain since they still get the important points they want. The speed of turn around, the speed in the air, MX that is not only longer between major checks, but easier to do on their overnight MX system, and more.

Its not that WN automatically gets what they want, its that WN has proven that what they want puts money in the bank for both the airlines and for Boeing.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:06 pm



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 112):
If you do that, now you don't have a replacement for the 737, it is now in a differen market.

Yeah but I thought that with the more efficient slender cross section of a CFRP barrel design plane, Boeing might be able to find room for 7 across and 2 slightly smaller aisles while only increasing the diameter of the fuselage enough to keep it in the same class as the 732RS. Maybe not.
That would really help boarding and deplaning.
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:11 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 111):
Its hard to believe that Boeing could design an entire new narrowbody and not increase both speed and fuel efficiency. I think we'll see both.

Well Look at the 747 has a max ML/D at mach0.86 and there isnt really anything faster since then, the VC-10 and bac1-11 doing mach 0.88? It isn't going to go faster in the cruise, it may well be faster to climb but not once its up there.

Fred
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DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:18 pm

I do not understand how a CFRP 737 replacement can be more expensive to operate.
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thegeek
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:27 pm



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 112):
Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 14):
I think it should be 2-3-2. Wide enough to hold more freight than the 737, but not inefficient like a 2-2-2 would be ( even though all pax on earth would prefer 2-2-2 )

If you do that, now you don't have a replacement for the 737, it is now in a differen market.

 checkmark 
Given that the replacement for the 767 is the 787 which was designed as an 8 abreast plane, I think we've had enough pining for 2-3-2.

At least if you were saying 2-3 it could be argued could replace the 737. Doubt that we'll see that for some time, if ever, though.
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:32 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 114):

Yeah but I thought that with the more efficient slender cross section of a CFRP barrel design plane, Boeing might be able to find room for 7 across and 2 slightly smaller aisles while only increasing the diameter of the fuselage enough to keep it in the same class as the 732RS. Maybe not.
That would really help boarding and deplaning.

The cross section isn't that much reduced with cfrp. I am 99.9% sure the 737RS will be single isle, its just not an efficient use of space to make a 2-3-2. Ever thought smaller isles would slow the deplane process? The people with their huge carry ons and all. The picture posted earlier is pretty much what im expecting ti to be.

Fred
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thegeek
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:44 pm



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 112):
What is the fastest commercial jet out right now (not the Concorde).

I believe it's the L-1011. And we know what became of that. Next fastest is the B747.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:18 pm



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 118):
Ever thought smaller isles would slow the deplane process?

Well it would only slow departure compared to a widebody with normal twin aisles. Compared to a 737 it would be much faster; but you're right, a 2 aisle 737RS probably wont happen.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:31 pm

The 737RS will almost assuredly be 3+3. What I would like to see is 18.5" wide seats and a 6" wider aisle for a total of 15" extra width over what the current 737 has which is not asking much, I don't believe.
 
planemaker
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:32 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 111):
Its hard to believe that Boeing could design an entire new narrowbody and not increase both speed and fuel efficiency. I think we'll see both.

It will really depend on airline priorities since everything is a trade off in aircraft design.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 112):
What will it look like IYHO?

There will be really significant industry consolidation, more domestic flying will be contracted out, more international service, etc. Then there will be the impact of at least one recession, carbon taxes, increased fuel prices, etc.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:52 am



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 103):

Don't you think that Boeing will come up with a 25% improvement in operating costs, AND keep the plane as fast, if not faster than the 737NG, maybe even matching the cruise speed of the 757?

Boeing had to roll out every improvement technology in their arsenal to get a 20% improvement over the 767, a ~25 year old design. Improvements are harder to get in the narrow bodies than the wide bodies. So no, I don't think they can pull a 25% improvement over the 737NG (which will be about a 20 year technology gap at 737RS EIS) without giving something up.

Quoting Art (Reply 109):
I get your point that WN has bought a lot of 737's but I have to ask how many?

They're coming up on 300 now, or slightly more than 10% of all 737NG's ever built.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 111):
What are the pros and cons of Boeing putting the exact same 787 interior flight deck in the 737RS.

Pro: relatively cheap, proven technology
Con: horribly distorted fuselage, loss of ~8 years of avionics development

Tom.
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:24 am

A 737RS isn't being offered now not only because Boeing doesn't want to destroy possible 737NG sales. There's more to it than now.

As of right now Carbon Fibre doesn't economically fit a plane of the size and production quantity of the 737. It might one day, but it doesn't look feasible now.

It's hard for a 737RS to beat the economics of the 737NG. Single systems are being redesigned now. An overall redesign may not be able to offer improvements over the current model. It is only 10 years old and is a very efficient design.

Overall, those that know more about a 737 Replacement are not allowed to say. I wish I could say more, but doing such things would risk the loss of a job, which isn't worth the risk. A.net forums are widely read.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:25 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 123):
They're coming up on 300 now, or slightly more than 10% of all 737NG's ever built.

They are the largest 737 operator in the world, and carry the most domestic passengers in the US.

They were the launch customer for the 737-500, and for the 737NG, with their order for 737-700.

Its not like they are some airline that just showed up in the last few years with huge plane orders. They have a track record, and that record is of success for Boeing.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:27 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 123):
Con: horribly distorted fuselage

What do you mean? I'm just talking about the setup inside the flightdeck not the same outer shell; just the same 9"X12"screens , heads up display etc.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 123):
loss of ~8 years of avionics development

Maybe by the time of the 787-10 introduction, any new instrumentation added to the the basic design of the original 787 flightdeck could be used in the 737RS too. Its less work than designing something all new and the 787s cockpit will still be extremely advanced ( with a few tweaks here and there )
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:29 am



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 117):
Given that the replacement for the 767 is the 787 which was designed as an 8 abreast plane, I think we've had enough pining for 2-3-2.

The 737RS will include a replacement for the 757-300 and 767-200, with possible long range variants. This size aircraft, particularly one with about 4,000-miles raneg is most certainly needed in an environment where new airports just aren't being built. A longer range version of this size lets a carrier run a route like Detroit to Cologne.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:38 am



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 126):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 123):
Con: horribly distorted fuselage

What do you mean? I'm just talking about the setup inside the flightdeck not the same outer shell; just the same 9"X12"screens , heads up display etc.

That's not really the same thing as "the same flightdeck" then. The 757 and 767 have the same flightdeck...that's why the 757's nose looks funny compared to all other Boeings'. If you change the layout, it's a different flightdeck.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 126):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 123):
loss of ~8 years of avionics development

Maybe by the time of the 787-10 introduction, any new instrumentation added to the the basic design of the original 787 flightdeck could be used in the 737RS too. Its less work than designing something all new and the 787s cockpit will still be extremely advanced ( with a few tweaks here and there )

That's true, but now we're talking different physical layout and different avionics...so it's really not the same.

I think it's a given that Boeing will leverage all the stuff they've developed for the 787 into the 737RS (that applies), so that will very likely include cockpit carryover, but that's been true of every Boeing since they went to two-crew with EICAS.

Tom.
 
planemaker
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:57 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 128):
I think it's a given that Boeing will leverage all the stuff they've developed for the 787 into the 737RS (that applies), so that will very likely include cockpit carryover, but that's been true of every Boeing since they went to two-crew with EICAS.

The 787's avionics/electronics are already "old" in the sense that they were defined a few years ago. So, considering Moore's Law, the 737RS should have considerably more advanced avionics/electronics than the 787 when one takes into account that the "design template" might be produced within 18 months (according to Mr. Carson... however, it might be longer) with possible 737RS EIS in 2015 (it might be later). Therefore, at this time we really can't predict what the final 737RS avionics/electronics package and cockpit will end up looking like.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:06 am

The layout of the cockpit is predictable. The avionics may be upgraded but the size and position should be easy enough to figure out.
What the...?
 
TSS
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:10 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 121):
The 737RS will almost assuredly be 3+3.

Agreed, at the very least for the larger variants.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 121):
What I would like to see is 18.5" wide seats and a 6" wider aisle for a total of 15" extra width over what the current 737 has which is not asking much, I don't believe.

Best idea yet! Just enough additional space to make cattle class a little more comfy, but not quite enough space to add an extra seat in each row!
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:50 pm



Quoting TSS (Reply 131):

Best idea yet! Just enough additional space to make cattle class a little more comfy, but not quite enough space to add an extra seat in each row!

Indeed...and the extra width would give enough structural strength to really be able to stretch it...I like it...unfortunately, it's not my decision to make...
What the...?
 
planemaker
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:36 am



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 130):
The layout of the cockpit is predictable. The avionics may be upgraded but the size and position should be easy enough to figure out.

Not at this point 7 or 8 years from EIS... you can guess but not figure it out.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:42 am



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 111):
and that doesn't stop the A320 series from consistently outselling the 737,

Check the figures; I believe that the A320 outsold the 737 classic, but since the 737NG they have been pretty equal, and in recent years the 737NG has actually outsold the A320. I know it did last year.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:19 pm



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 102):
I guess you've never seen the "fat Al" 737-100. Or the -377. Or the ugliest one Boeing ever built: the 747SP a.k.a. "B.U.F.F.".

I'll grant the 737-100/500/600 are funny-looking jellybeans with wings. And the 747-SP was not exactly a model of grace. The -377 wasn't a jetliner, so we'll exempt it.

But honestly, the A319? The A380? The A310? They make me want to retch they're so ugly. Great planes, don't get me wrong, but FUGLY.
-Doc Lightning-

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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:23 pm



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 26):
seriously though it'll just look like a little 787 although id kill myself with laughter if they made an aluminium, high wing turboprop.

Hey, don't speak too soon - anythings possible, if fuel costs continue to rise at the same rate we'll be back onto balsa wood airframes  Smile

Quoting Smed63 (Reply 46):
Flipdewaf, thanks for a really good laugh on these couple of lines from your posts. It's been a very long day at work (including a trip from DTW-ORD on UA) and this was exactly what I needed to end my day.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 26):
It'll be a tube with wings, they all are and like all the others it'll have 2 engines under the wings and it'll be made of plastic and you'll all say its a "game changer". It'll be late as well or over budget or both, they always are. non of this 2-2-2 jazz, that makes about as much sense as putting a piano in a 747.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 26):
But they'll come up with some stupid name for it like "envirolight-making you feel in touch with the plane" with an ad of a woman closing her eyes as she reclines her seat.

It's these types of elements that we don't talk about nearly enough when it comes to the 737 replacement.

Seconded. Flipdewaf - keep 'em coming when we get too serious and stuck miles up our own ar*es  Smile
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:51 pm



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 134):
Check the figures; I believe that the A320 outsold the 737 classic, but since the 737NG they have been pretty equal, and in recent years the 737NG has actually outsold the A320. I know it did last year.

Ya , I know, but overall, tha A320 series has a bigger backlog right now, and for the foreseeable future, than the 737.

I just meant it takes more than 1 customer to decide the success of an airliner. And that Boeing shouldn't just design a plane for WN without any thought to dozens of other airlines that fly 737s.
 
fruitbat
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:02 am



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 137):
I just meant it takes more than 1 customer to decide the success of an airliner. And that Boeing shouldn't just design a plane for WN without any thought to dozens of other airlines that fly 737s.

Agreed. But they only need to design it for a few - Southwest, Ryanair, EasyJet, plus 3 or 4 major Indian / Chinese / SE Asian LCC's and that'll be enough - the rest will follow!

just my 2c
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:28 am



Quoting Stitch (Reply 121):
The 737RS will almost assuredly be 3+3. What I would like to see is 18.5" wide seats and a 6" wider aisle for a total of 15" extra width over what the current 737 has which is not asking much, I don't believe.

It might be a touch wider, actually. The A320 is 6" wider than the 737 (which has the same fuselage cross-section as the 707, 727, and 757). So I hope they'll aim high and try to beat the A320 cross-section. It can't, of course, get TOO much wider or it would start becoming a widebody. But 8" or 10" would do.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:05 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 139):
It might be a touch wider, actually. The A320 is 6" wider than the 737 (which has the same fuselage cross-section as the 707, 727, and 757). So I hope they'll aim high and try to beat the A320 cross-section. It can't, of course, get TOO much wider or it would start becoming a widebody. But 8" or 10" would do.

Well even at 18" seats with a 6" wider aisle would allow equal seat comfort to the A320 as well as making an aisle large enough for people to get by each other and the cart. This would speed embarkation and disembarkation as well as allowing Economy Class passengers access to the lavatories during meal and drink services, keeping them from having to use the First Class lavatory which is a major annoyance to many First Class passengers.

But if Boeing could go 18.5" or even 19" plus the 6" wider aisle, that would be even better. Hopefully with CFRP they can make the walls thin enough.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing To Decide On 737 Replacement By 2010

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:09 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 121):
The 737RS will almost assuredly be 3+3. What I would like to see is 18.5" wide seats and a 6" wider aisle for a total of 15" extra width over what the current 737 has which is not asking much, I don't believe.

It might be a touch wider, actually. The A320 is 6" wider than the 737 (which has the same fuselage cross-section as the 707, 727, and 757). So I hope they'll aim high and try to beat the A320 cross-section. It can't, of course, get TOO much wider or it would start becoming a widebody. But 8" or 10" would do.

Here's how I figure... The A320 has a fuselage diameter of 3.7 m or 145" (12' 1") internally. Now, note that this is a DIAMETER, not the floor width (which is smaller), but let's just assume they're similar for the sake of discussion. OK, 25"/60cm for the aisle (as advertised), which leaves 310cm or 120" (10') for six seats. That works out to 20" or ~50 cm per seat. Now it's closer to 18" (~45cm) because the issue that floor width is different from cabin diameter. Boeing can make a new A/C up to 50cm (20") wider or so without forcing itself into adding an extra seat (i.e. no more than 6 seats per row). They could distribute all that width between seats and aisle. Now they won't make it that wide because that's inefficient, but my point is that they have a lot of room to work with before they make it a widebody.

But if I may rant slightly off-topic for a moment: I have flown in almost every type of jet airliner made in the West since the Comet. From the 707 and DC8 to the 777 and 747-400 (never did get on an MD-11), I have flown in almost every type of narrowbody and widebody in common use, and I've even managed to wind up on a Tu-154 (THAT was interesting, in retrospect...) And do you know what?

A FLIGHT IS A FRIGGIN' FLIGHT. I cannot tell the difference on the inside between the width of an A320 and a 757. It all feels the same to me. I don't notice the noise difference. The 707 (SCL-IPA and UIO-GPA [look 'em up, you'll be amazed where I've been Smile ]) wasn't that much louder than today's planes except at take-off. Decor aside, it was otherwise essentially indistinguishable from flying in a 737-700. Other than the underlying knowledge of what I'm flying and the fact that different planes feel slightly differently when they maneuver, it doesn't matter whether it's a BAe-146 or a 747-400. Because no matter the cabin amenities and no matter how spacious the interior feels, my butt is still strapped into an economy seat at the back of the plane with an obese man sitting next to (and partially on top of) me, unable to get up without significantly inconveniencing my neighbors, and stuck there for hours on end!

So honestly, I don't really care what the cabin is like, and I get off on plane stuff. But the majority of the flying public couldn't tell you what kind of plane took them where they were going. In fact, there are three and only three aspects of a cabin that directly impact my travel experience.

1) Bins large enough for my carry-on's (and I'm the sort who avoids checking)
2) My seat (recline, pitch, width, IFE
3) Air quality.
[4) hot F/A?  Wink ]

So if you're in J or F class, then your flight will be far better than mine, regardless of the cabin design. And if you're one of us poor schmucks back in Y, then no amount of cute LED light effects and "spacious curvy architecture" makes a 15-hour flight seem significantly more pleasant.

End of rant.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan

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