Alessandro
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Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:37 pm

Swedish media http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=678&a=722628
claim that Bombardier has admitted that there´s a design error on the landing gear, one hydraulic filter is substandard and will be replaced...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
DIA
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:43 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Thread starter):
Bombardier has admitted that there´s a design error on the landing gear, one hydraulic filter is substandard and will be replaced...

Interesting. Now, let me get this straight...is this "flawed" part still in the newest Qs, or has it already been replaced?

Oddly enough, Lynx starts up today with their fleet of Q400s. Nice to have something new in the skies above Denver.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
B747forever
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:52 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Thread starter):

Hmm, really interesting.

Wonder now if Bombardier have to pay SAS for all the incidents with their Q400s???
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Splitz
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:53 pm

Do I smell a lawsuit if the claim can be substantiated?
 
osiris30
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:10 pm



Quoting Splitz (Reply 3):
Do I smell a lawsuit if the claim can be substantiated?

Be pretty hard as I'm guessing the warranty on the aircraft is like any other, and furthermore the aircraft were all certified by the various oversight bodies.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
sebring
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:18 pm

Is there an English version of the story? Hard to draw conclusions based on a language I can't understand.
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:27 pm

From the article

Quote:
- De har erkänt att det finns ett problem med ett filter som kollapsa. Därför har Bombardier nu meddelat att de ska ta fram ett nytt och starkare filter, säger danska Luftfartsverkets informationschef Thorbjörn Ancker till nyhetsbryån Ritzaus.

My translation:

"They have admitted that there is a problem with a filter that collapses. Therefor Bombardier has informed that they will come out with a new and stronger filter" says the Danish Aviation Authority's Information officer Thobjoern Ancker to the news bureau Ritzaus
 
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yowza
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:53 pm



Quoting Sebring (Reply 5):
Is there an English version of the story? Hard to draw conclusions based on a language I can't understand.



Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 6):

My translation:

I am waiting for an official source in English before I pass judgment. The language used is imperative in deducing the situation. For instance "can fail" is not the same as "may fail". I hope this is not too serious an issue for BBD.

YOWza
 
Oroka
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:22 pm

So why was SAS having so many problems despite thousands of Q400s hopping around all over the planet. Shouldn't there have been a gear collapse on a weekly basis? BBD can not be solely blamed for this, it is a combination of SAS maintenance and a deficiency in the BBD designed filter. The combination of both was to blame, neither alone.
 
speedbird128
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:04 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 8):
despite thousands of Q400s hopping around all over the planet

The L/N is under 200 frames...
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
RIXrat
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:27 pm

OK, I'm not a native Swede, but here goes an unofficial translation from the Dagens Nyheter (Stockholm) newspaper article:

BOMBARDIER ADMITS FAULT ON DASH

Copenhagen -- The Canadian airplane manufacturer Bombardier now admits that they have had problems with a filter, which contributed to the collapse of the landing gear of an SAS Dash airplane at Kastrup Airport at the end of October.

In conjunction with a landing at Kastrup folded the right landing gear when a little round rubber ring blocked the hydraulics so that the landing gear could not fall out.

(Ed. note. The lead of the article mentions "collapse," while the 2nd pgh says the landing gear could not be lowered)

Bombardier has up to now banked on a preliminary report from the Danish Accident Investigation Commission, where it says that SAS mechanics had used parts for the rear of the landing gear that were intended for the nose portion.

But now Bombardier admits that there is a weakness in the landing gear hydraulics. (They used the word "fins" or is and not the past tense of "fans" or was. Don't know what to make of that).

"It has been discovered that there is a problem with a filter which collapsed. Therefore, Bombardier has now announced that it will use a new and stronger filter," Thorbjorn Anker, information director of the Danish Aviation Ministry, told the Danish news agency Ritzau.

The admission by Bombardier heightens the possibility that the Danish Accident Investigation Commission, in its final report, might find Bombardier as responsible for the accident.

And the possibility of SAS demanding economic compensation has heightened.

(Ed. Note. Then it talks about the accidents at Vilnius and Aarhus, which were the faults of the landing gear bolts and not connected with the CPH incident).

Hope this helps.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:34 pm

Yes clearly a failed filter caused the O-ring to magically appear in the hydraulic actuator.........
 
T prop
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:47 pm



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 11):
Yes clearly a failed filter caused the O-ring to magically appear in the hydraulic actuator.........

Exactly, this is media rubbish.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:51 pm

There's no recent official press release on this Q400 design from Bombardier, so for what it's worth, take that article with a barrel or two of salt.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
RIXrat
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:42 pm

Hey, guys, I'm just the messenger. Back in the Roman times if there was bad news, they killed him. I only translated the bloody article.

Have a good day.
 
MerlinIIIB
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:53 pm

No aircraft are fault-free, and certainly not the Q400:

http://www.aibn.no/items/2620/144/0470117284/LN-WDA%20eng.pdf

I wonder why all Q400 supporters in this thread are from Canada or the U.S?
 
Arrow
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:26 pm



Quoting MerlinIIIB (Reply 15):
I wonder why all Q400 supporters in this thread are from Canada or the U.S?

Just trying to introduce some balance to counter all the Q400 bashers from Scandinavian countries.  stirthepot 
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
rb211tristar
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:32 pm

I'm indifferent on this one. I study the forensics of airline incidents as a hobby, and as most NTSB investigators will tell you, it typically takes a series of independent failures to create a catastrophic failure.That being said, BBD is doing the right thing by identifying a substandard or faulty part and replacing it. I haven't read up on much of the SAS Q400 issues, but it sounds like the Danish Aviation Authority determined that an improper o-ring caused at least one of the failures. The wording (or lack there of) in the article above seems to indicate that the events were unrelated, although could produce the same failure symptoms.

Just my impression though. Don't flame me for it. Can anyone get their hands on the actual findings of the Authority?
 
swissy
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:35 pm



Quoting RIXrat (Reply 14):
Hey, guys, I'm just the messenger. Back in the Roman times if there was bad news, they killed him. I only translated the bloody article.

Thank you very much for taking the time and translate the media report for "us"  bigthumbsup , I am sure BB will come out soon with an explanation of what/why happen...... interesting never less

Cheers,
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:47 pm



Quoting MerlinIIIB (Reply 15):
I wonder why all Q400 supporters in this thread are from Canada or the U.S?

The important q400 supporters are the companies that are making lots of profit with them and are ordering more. What exactly is the point being made with the link? It really doesn't give a very favourable assessment of the crew, I'm afraid.
What the...?
 
T prop
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:14 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 19):
What exactly is the point being made with the link? It really doesn't give a very favourable assessment of the crew, I'm afraid.

Actually the report also shows that the aircraft was properly designed and handled the situation well in regards to this incident. The engine firewalls did their job and contained the fire within the engine firezones. The mode of engine failure is known and has been addressed by the engine manufacturer since this incident.
 
PlunaCRJ
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:21 pm

I am glad BBD admitted there is something wrong with the Q400´s gears. Even if this is only one in a series of events that caused the gear to fail, it is a good start.

It might also help the Q400´s credibility the fact that BBD has identified and is fixing a problem.
 
Bravo1Six
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:13 pm

Gents (and ladies),

Before everyone starts taking a news report as the gospel, keep in mind that BBD is a public company and is under an obligation to file "material change" reports and issue press releases in respect of material events (good or bad).

No such press release was issued today (as noted by a previous poster), so draw your own conclusions as to how accurate the original new report is.
 
Splitz
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:30 pm



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 4):
Be pretty hard as I'm guessing the warranty on the aircraft is like any other, and furthermore the aircraft were all certified by the various oversight bodies.

Bombardier can still get sued especially if they admit a design flaw.

Because of all the publicy of the problems with the landing gear it would be prudent for Bombardier to fix the problem quickly and free of charge to all operators. Just to save face.

They are still trying to sell the Q400's new as Regional carriers are finding out that the CRJ100/200 might not be viable any longer. Since ATR is still producing both the ATR42 and 72, there is still competition out there.

If they wish to keep the current customers for newer frames it would be well wise to keep them sweet.
 
osiris30
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:21 am



Quoting Splitz (Reply 23):
Bombardier can still get sued especially if they admit a design flaw.

But I haven't seen Bombardier admitting to a flaw. I have seen them admitting to a part that doesn't perform as expected. Scratch that.. I've seen translations of a media report claiming someone at Bombardier says there may be a problem with a part.

This is *nothing* new in aviation. How many aircraft from all manufacturers have recommendations to replace factory parts with alternate parts later in life. This happens all the time, whether it be for safety, convenience, maintenance longevity, etc.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Someone83
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:29 am



Quoting T prop (Reply 20):
Actually the report also shows that the aircraft was properly designed and handled the situation well in regards to this incident. The engine firewalls did their job and contained the fire within the engine firezones. The mode of engine failure is known and has been addressed by the engine manufacturer since this incident.

eeeh which fire? In the case of the 3 SK Q400 accidents, it wasn't fire that caused the problem, but the landing gear that wouldt come out properly
 
Splitz
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:36 am

^^^ or collapsed after landing!
 
threepoint
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:50 am



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 25):
eeeh which fire? In the case of the 3 SK Q400 accidents, it wasn't fire that caused the problem, but the landing gear that wouldt come out properly

See reply 15.

The link was to a completely separate incident unrelated to the three landing gear mishaps. I'm not sure how this report adds to this conversation though.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
twincommander
Posts: 221
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:07 am

a collapsed filter? perhaps a mechanic didnt lube the o-ring upon installation and applied excesive force to an already weak filter body...
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:18 am



Quoting Splitz (Reply 23):
Bombardier can still get sued especially if they admit a design flaw.

BBA is not about to announce to the world they have found a problem. If they did that, they might as well file for bankruptcy as everyone will attempt to get a piece of them.

This isn't to say they were not at fault, just they cannot announce it to the world for legal reasons.
 
T prop
Posts: 966
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:22 am



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 25):

eeeh which fire? In the case of the 3 SK Q400 accidents, it wasn't fire that caused the problem, but the landing gear that wouldt come out properly

I was referring to the link posted here:

Quoting MerlinIIIB (Reply 15):
No aircraft are fault-free, and certainly not the Q400:

http://www.aibn.no/items/2620/144/0470117284/LN-WDA%20eng.pdf

I wonder why all Q400 supporters in this thread are from Canada or the U.S?

 
JoeCanuck
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:25 am



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 29):
This isn't to say they were not at fault, just they cannot announce it to the world for legal reasons.

Actually, for legal reasons, they MUST announce it to the world. To not announce something they knew would have a material effect on their share price, is against the law and would lead to criminal prosecution against the company officers who were involved in any coverup.
What the...?
 
T prop
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:30 am

Next the supermarket tabloids will say it was caused by aliens from Mars and some people at a net will believe it.

The last Q400 gear failure at SAS was due to a screw up by someone, not the aircraft or it's systems. In case anyone has forgotten:

technical examination of actuator assembly

[Edited 2007-12-07 21:34:48]

[Edited 2007-12-07 21:37:31]
 
xtoler
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:10 am

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:20 am



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 24):
But I haven't seen Bombardier admitting to a flaw. I have seen them admitting to a part that doesn't perform as expected. Scratch that.. I've seen translations of a media report claiming someone at Bombardier says there may be a problem with a part.

I have to agree with you on that. Parts get changed, and they aren't always straight from the aircraft manufacturer and the parts may not even be brand new. Unfortunately you can not alway quality assess each and every part. If you did that, you'd really have a ragged part. I'm no maintainer, but we had an o ring and hydraulic gauge problem in a few of our EMB145 brake cylinders. Luckily, it showed up in the cockpit on the PFD before the engines were spooled and we pushed off the gate. It only happened on a few aircraft we'd leased at the same time. It was just a few substandard parts to a bigger system. The bad thing was it couldn't be MEL'ed and it always seemed to happen when I was on the flight and at an outstation. I guess my QA/QC training at du Pont didn't go all to waste after I got laid off.

Quoting DIA (Reply 1):
Oddly enough, Lynx starts up today with their fleet of Q400s. Nice to have something new in the skies above Denver

I think that batch of aircraft will do fine. I'm in Aurora and if the sky wasn't so overcast today I'd be on my balcony with binoclulars watching for Lynx. The one drawback from my last apartment to the new one is, the aircraft a little further away, but my new apartment has a better view of Buckley. Glad to see another Anetter here in DEN though. Oh, did you notice anyone flying into or at least towards Centennial?
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:10 pm



Quoting Splitz (Reply 23):
Because of all the publicy of the problems with the landing gear it would be prudent for Bombardier to fix the problem quickly and free of charge to all operators. Just to save face.

 checkmark 

Exactly, because no manufacturer of machinery is perfect, and no machine is perfect. It is a matter of trust, and the manufacturer who stands behind their product no matter what the problem is, will continue to be respected and trusted by those who purchase their products.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
Splitz
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:15 pm

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:13 pm

at least somebody agrees with me! lol
 
brilondon
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:52 pm

I still wonder why it was only one airline with the problem if it was a design flaw.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:22 pm

Has there been an update or a follow up to this article? Has any other news source picked up on it? Has there been a press release from BBD?
What the...?
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:50 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 31):
Actually, for legal reasons, they MUST announce it to the world. To not announce something they knew would have a material effect on their share price, is against the law and would lead to criminal prosecution against the company officers who were involved in any coverup.

Unfortunately the world doesn't work like this. A fix (if one is required) will be made, but no admittance of liability will be made. The cost will be deemed to be non-material and not reportable.

Also, as many have point out, the fact that this happened basically to one airline points to issues involving that airline.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:39 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 38):
Unfortunately the world doesn't work like this. A fix (if one is required) will be made, but no admittance of liability will be made. The cost will be deemed to be non-material and not reportable.

Correct...if it's shown to be preventative or another general improvement, implemented as a retrofit. That happens all the time. Testing can only indicate so much. Some things inevitably show up once the aircraft has entered service. These things would still be made public.

If it was a potentially dangerous flaw which the company knew about and yet kept to themselves, this would inevitably lead to criminal prosecution, if this flaw contributed to an accident. If they sat on information which would lead to a significant change in the share price, this could also lead to prosecution. Just look at Conrad Black.

So far, though, we've only seen this one article indicating a flawed filter and it doesn't seem to me that there is any relationship between this filter and any incident. With no confirmation from BBD, (or an impartial third party), that this is even an issue, the report by itself, proves and means nothing.
What the...?
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 36):
I still wonder why it was only one airline with the problem if it was a design flaw.

NOTE: I am not comenting on whether it is or not a design flaw!

However, answering your question of why one airline... it is possible. SAS took virtually all of the early Q400's and these models were delayed months as the early blocks had their designs revised on what seemed like a continuous basis (sometimes on an indvidual basis!). That is why some airlines refuse to be launch customers... the teething hassles and possible ongoing problems of the first few models are simply not worth it to them. The Q400 had a difficult EIS.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
avionic
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 1999 3:45 am

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:51 pm

flaws on several filters announced by danish SLV (CAA) :

http://www.hangar.no/articles/3029/1...l-pa-filter/Filter-kollapsede.html

ANA nose gear collapse missing bolt from factory acc Japanese AIB:

http://www.boarding.no/art.asp?id=29442

Sorry not in english yet.......
 
avionic
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 1999 3:45 am

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:05 pm

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-at-flybe-after-glitch-during.html

Not pointing fingers, just showing related incidents in english.....
 
avionic
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 1999 3:45 am

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:11 pm

A missing bolt that caused the emergency nose-landing of an All Nippon Airways Co. aircraft at Kochi Airport in March was probably never installed, sources close to the investigation said
13 November 2007
The International Herald Tribune (Herald Asahi)

The transport ministry's investigation panel believes Canada's Bombardier Inc. likely failed to put the bolt in the front landing gear during production of the DHC-8-400, the sources said

On March 13, ANA Flight 1603, bound from Osaka for Kochi, was forced to make an emergency landing when the front landing gear became stuck inside the fuselage

The plane skidded to a stop on its nose on the runway. None of the 56 passengers and four crew members aboard were injured

The ministry's Aircraft and Railway Accidents Investigation Commission is further looking into the production system at the Montreal-based aircraft manufacturer because the problem could have led to disaster, they said

The commission's report will be released early next year

The bolt was meant to be installed in the joint of an arm that opens and shuts doors to the storage compartment for the front landing gear

Because the bolt was missing, a cylindrical part shifted position and prevented other parts from opening the doors, according to the sources

Investigators found no trace that the bolt had ever been screwed into the cylindrical part. the sources said

If the bolt was properly tightened, it would leave a trace marking in another cylindrical part called a bushing. But no markings were found, according to the sources

The panel has apparently concluded that Bombardier failed to attach the bolt, the sources said

ANA told the investigators that the airline had never checked or touched the bolt since the aircraft was delivered in July 2005

Since the Kochi accident, similar troubles involving landing gear in Bombardier DHC-8-400 aircraft, also known as the Q400, have been reported

On Oct. 27, a Scandinavian Airlines System aircraft made an emergency landing in Copenhagen when the right-hand main landing gear became stuck

SAS has since grounded all of its 27 Bombardier Q400s

Bombardier says it plans to toughen inspections of landing gear and is reviewing its design. However, the airline industry remains concerned about safety

According to some sources, multiple production errors may have led to the nose-landing in Kochi

Some parts of the landing gear may have been damaged in production, forcing the entire apparatus to be replaced. The bolt may not have been installed at that time, they said.
__________________

Well I hope this satisfies some of our english airliner friends  Smile hard to find articles from japanese and scandinavian media in english  Smile
Hope both SAS and bombardier find a solution and that the remaining worldwide Q400 fleet don´t experience the sam e problems...that´sthe only positive outcome from such an ordeal.......we get wiser, and the rest of he Q400´s are inspected in these troublesome areas.....
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Bombardier Admits Design Error...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:15 pm



Quoting T prop (Reply 32):
The last Q400 gear failure at SAS was due to a screw up by someone, not the aircraft or it's systems. In case anyone has forgotten:

Exactly and it sounds like to me that Bombadier is trying to design around another person screwing up that landing gear. Hardly a "Design Flaw" if you are trying to design an idiot out of the system.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 40):
That is why some airlines refuse to be launch customers... the teething hassles and possible ongoing problems of the first few models are simply not worth it to them

It isn't a bad policy either......I think Yeager said, "Never Fly the A model of Anything!!!"
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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