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readytotaxi
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The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:10 pm

Should an airline be allowed to advertise a "flat bed" seat that is not indeed flat, one that is level but at an angle of degrees,
the Oxford Dictionary defines FLAT as "having a level and even surface, not sloping".
If a ball sat on a flat surface would it move?
Is there a test case perhaps to be made with airlines claiming such offerings which where not true?

Perhaps airlines marketing teams needs to rethink their presentation to the public, would hate to payout for a "flat bed" to arrive at the plane and find out I have to spend 8 hours plus on a slope long haul.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:07 pm

Well if there isn't really a flat bed there is going to be some angry passengers. By law they can't advertise that it is flat unless it truly is. But then again many advertisements do lie!
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
davescj
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:25 pm

I think that some say "true flat", LH says "almost flat" on the biz class jet product, I've also seen "angled flat" etc.

But I agree with Readytotaxi.......If it ain't 180, it ain't flat.....period. All else should be required to display the angle.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
JGPH1A
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:41 pm

If a bed isn't 180 degrees flat to the floor, it isn't flat. Fully-flat beds are way way more comfortable than the slopey-flat ones, there is just no comparison. I can actually sleep on a fully flat bed, I have much more difficulty on the sloping ones - the footrests are never big enough, you just keep sliding down.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
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OA260
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:52 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 3):
If a bed isn't 180 degrees flat to the floor, it isn't flat.

Exactly and I know someone that had problems with swollen angles and needed to have their legs no lower than the rest of the body when on long flights . They paid for a so called flat bed and they got on and it was angled . They threatened to sue and got back half their fare !!! I think the thing that made their case was that they had emailed the airline and the airline emailed back saying it was indeed flat !!!
 
AirBuffalo
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:59 pm

You're on to something.....

It reminds me of "The Simpsons" episode when Homer gets kicked out of the all-u-can-eat buffet. Upon legal consultation, Lionel Hutz (the lawyer) exclaims "Mr. Simpson, this is the most blatant case of false advertising since my case against "The Never-Ending Story"!"

"Flat bed" is a marketing term. Just like a "direct" flight that makes me stop in SFO when I fly from IAD-TPE, even though American Heritage Dictionary defines "direct" as "proceeding without interruption in a straight course or line; not deviating or swerving".

Plus, a piece of wood can be flat, regardless of it's orientation to the ground.

Gotta love semantics.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:21 pm



Quoting AirBuffalo (Reply 5):

Indeed...by definition flat doesn't have to mean horizontal, though that seems to be the implication in this case. It's a good thing I'm not anti-semantic...
What the...?
 
JGPH1A
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:24 pm



Quoting AirBuffalo (Reply 5):
Just like a "direct" flight that makes me stop in SFO when I fly from IAD-TPE,

"Direct" is an industry term indicating travel on the same flight-number with stops en-route. As opposed to "non-stop" which implies no intermediate landing between departure and arrival. And don't even get started on "Change-of-guage", that just gets wierd.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
AirBuffalo
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:21 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 7):
"Direct" is an industry term

"direct" is a marketing term to lure passengers with the notion of convenience.

in fact, "flat bed" is much more differentiating than "direct". I know I won't be sitting in a la-z-boy seat if I purchase a flat bed biz/first ticket.

however, "direct" means nothing in a practical sense. UA 871 (my example) uses 2 completely different aircraft from IAD-SFO and SFO-TPE. calling it a "direct" flight is basically lying. I still have to connect to a different aircraft. They don't even guarantee that I will make the second leg if the first is late.
 
nwa744tpa
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:22 pm

Just last week, I saw an ad for American Airlines new "lie-flat" seats. However, the picture showed a seat pictured at about 170'. It was "flat", but at an angle, similar to NW seats. I was hoping that if AA's new product was 180', then NW would eventually do the same. Maybe one day...........
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:31 pm

I think one may find that many airlines now advertise their products as "lie-flat" as opposed to simply "flat" as they may have declared in the early days of the lie-flat in J phenomenon.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
bill142
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:05 pm

Why would you want a bed that is truly parallel to the aisle? You're going to get blood rushing to your head for most of the flight if you're sleeping parallel to the aisle.
 
georgiaame
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:28 pm

I slept for 5 hours last week in a W shaped, 18.5 inch wide Delta BusinessElite seat. Somewhat primitive by today's standards, and I really hate to say it, but it was more comfortable than the AF non-horizontal to the ground flat bed in their business class. As many of us know, it really is about how wide it is, not how long or straight. Bon voyage, bon nuit and vive la differance.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
albird87
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:03 am

I can understand how this can be mixed up but if an airline advertises as a lie-flat seat, that means that it can be anything from a sloped flat surface to a horizontally flat seat. Its up to how the airline advertises it and to make sure that you understand what the airline says. However if the airline then markets it as a bed i do beleive then that it has to be horizontally flat. I think that also when an airline adverts the seat as lie flat..... expect a slopped seat. When they advertise it as a bed.... expect a horizontal flat seat.
 
Fly2CHC
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:53 am

How many carriers actually offer a TRUE flat bed in Business Class these days? I.e. 180 degrees horizontal to the ground!

Etihad
South African
Virgin
British Airways
Air New Zealand

any others...?

The other interesting question is, out of the above how many have their entire long haul fleet standardised? Look at EK for instance...you have around 4 different types of F class and 5 different types of J class!!
 
TreeHillRavens
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:21 am



Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 14):
How many carriers actually offer a TRUE flat bed in Business Class these days? I.e. 180 degrees horizontal to the ground!

Etihad
South African
Virgin
British Airways
Air New Zealand

any others...?

Singapore Airlines (380 and 77W, soon 345 and probably currently fitted with Spacebed 772ER)
 
abrelosojos
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:22 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 3):
If a bed isn't 180 degrees flat to the floor, it isn't flat. Fully-flat beds are way way more comfortable than the slopey-flat ones, there is just no comparison. I can actually sleep on a fully flat bed, I have much more difficulty on the sloping ones - the footrests are never big enough, you just keep sliding down.

= I actually prefer an older styled heavy cushioned J seat (like DL's Biz Elite) than angular-flat seat.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 11):
Why would you want a bed that is truly parallel to the aisle? You're going to get blood rushing to your head for most of the flight if you're sleeping parallel to the aisle.

= Huh?

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 13):
I can understand how this can be mixed up but if an airline advertises as a lie-flat seat, that means that it can be anything from a sloped flat surface to a horizontally flat seat. Its up to how the airline advertises it and to make sure that you understand what the airline says. However if the airline then markets it as a bed i do beleive then that it has to be horizontally flat. I think that also when an airline adverts the seat as lie flat..... expect a slopped seat. When they advertise it as a bed.... expect a horizontal flat seat.

= But angular-flat is rarely totally lie-flat ... so its indeed a lie (pun intended - bad I know). Most lie-flat seats have odd places where they recline which leads to an uncomfortable flight.

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 14):
Etihad
South African
Virgin
British Airways
Air New Zealand

= Jet Airways, Singapore Airlines (new Business class), Cathay Pacific, Air Canada (new Business Class), All Nippon, Air India (new Business Class), EOS, Etihad, TAM ... at least these are the ones I recall from flights in the past year or so.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:55 am

As a regular on NZ Business Premier, and having a number of competitors, there is no comparison for sleeping. Truly horizontal is the only way. I slept for 10+ hours flying LHR-HKG or in distance terms from about Brussels-Guangzhou. I also have slept for considerable periods of time on the following long haul routes.
AKL-LAX 9 hours
LAX-LHR 8 hours
AKL-HKG 6+ hours
HKG-AKL 7+ hours

I can sleep on the other kind of seats, but my neck always wakes up with knot in the muscle tissue, the sleep is not good quality REM sleep, and it most certainly is not for such long periods of time.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:19 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 11):
Why would you want a bed that is truly parallel to the aisle? You're going to get blood rushing to your head for most of the flight if you're sleeping parallel to the aisle.

What? So when you sleep on a bed, the blood rushes to your head? I know mine doesn't...
 
jamie86
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:25 am

When i was lucky enough to fly air nz business premier i found i had to curl up a bit to fit in. Im 6 foot, and was a bit tall for the inboard seats, and when in the outboard seats there was a metal air conditioning grate or something that was very uncomfortable. Other than that though it was nice.
In qantas J class at the moment the seats are flat but do angle cause it is suposed to be fully flat with the aircraft flying at 7 degrees. but unfortunatly at the moment you slide down. Luckily the new ones will be more angled and should be fully lie flat
JAMIE
 
bill142
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:31 am



Quoting SupraZachAir (Reply 18):

What? So when you sleep on a bed, the blood rushes to your head? I know mine doesn't...

Correct me if I'm wrong but the floor of your bed room is not sloped at an angle is it? The floor of an aircraft, while cruising generally is. If you've ever walked to your seat from the back of the aircraft, you'll have noticed you are walking up a slope, unless you're descending. So if you're in a flat bed, perfectly parallel to the floor then your head is going to be lower then your feet.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:57 am



Quoting AirBuffalo (Reply 8):
UA 871 (my example) uses 2 completely different aircraft from IAD-SFO and SFO-TPE. calling it a "direct" flight is basically lying. I still have to connect to a different aircraft. They don't even guarantee that I will make the second leg if the first is late

That would be a "change of guage" service, which in the US under CRS Code of Conduct regulations, you don't have to disclose as a connecting service using two different aircraft - they are allowed to call it a "direct" service. In the European Union, you do have to disclose it as a connecting service, and show both legs seperately with the type of aircraft.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Jasondn
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:48 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 20):
Correct me if I'm wrong but the floor of your bed room is not sloped at an angle is it? The floor of an aircraft, while cruising generally is. If you've ever walked to your seat from the back of the aircraft, you'll have noticed you are walking up a slope, unless you're descending. So if you're in a flat bed, perfectly parallel to the floor then your head is going to be lower then your feet.

So are you suggesting that airlines turn all their beds facing the rear of the plane??? I personally don't mind and when flying on BA the other day I slept virtually the flight facing to the rear plane.

It will just look wierd with 30 - 40 seats facing backwards.  Smile
 
jetfan
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:11 am

BA LHR-LAX in J, I ended up in one of the middle seats. I'm not a claustrophobic person at all, but being for 12 hrs in a compartment made of the seat dividers of the new BA J class seats and the section wall was not a very pleasant experience. And the seats, although fully flat, were a little bit hard.

I prefer the old-style, well cushioned seats as well and don't like taking off and landing facing backwards, even though it's safer, but still feels weird.
 
Farzan
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:15 am

Flew Bangkok - Copenhagen on SAS 340 last week. Their "flatbed" was the worst ever. Not only are the seats sloped in an angle, but with no foot rest it is impossible to stay in the "bed". The angle makes you slide out of the seat.
 
LXA340
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:02 pm

Some of the airlines also manipulate pictures of their lie flat seats which make the seat in fully flat position have a smaller angle than it is the case in actual fact.
 
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par13del
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:51 pm

If I understand this thread trend of thought, we are debating the "true" meaning of flat bed as advertised by the airlines? One could ask the question, who sleeps on a flat bed, by that I mean who lays down flat? Unless you normally sleep without a pillow, no one does. The purpose of the pillow is to elevate the head, since its been used for so many decades, by now some one should have done a study to say its not beneficial to humans.
I think this is all about space and bean counters, a airline seat which goes out horizontal to the floor, uses more space than one which does not go fully horizontal, I'm certain the bean counters can provide the square inches saved per seat that provide the airline with an additional seat in business class or an additional 2 in economy and maybe a couple more pounds of cargo capacity, one thing we know for sure, the flat non-flat is not about pax comfort, but economics for the airline. Look for the survey where pax decide to not fly airlines with non-flat seats.
 
eddgge
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:19 pm

Quoting Farzan (Reply 24):
Flew Bangkok - Copenhagen on SAS 340 last week. Their "flatbed" was the worst ever. Not only are the seats sloped in an angle, but with no foot rest it is impossible to stay in the "bed". The angle makes you slide out of the seat.

I second that! They also already look worn out and dirty.

[Edited 2007-12-09 05:19:51]
 
huskyaviation
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:27 pm



Quoting Farzan (Reply 24):
Flew Bangkok - Copenhagen on SAS 340 last week. Their "flatbed" was the worst ever. Not only are the seats sloped in an angle, but with no foot rest it is impossible to stay in the "bed". The angle makes you slide out of the seat.

I had a very similar experience in AF business class--luckily I'm pretty tall (6'4") so I was able to jam my feet up against the bottom of the footwell to stop from sliding but it wasn't all that comfortable.

I wonder if any of these airlines are opening themselves up to liability to claims of false advertising. The standard in many US jurisdictions is advertising that is likely to deceive an ordinary consumer, along with a showing of actual harm (ie, actual reliance on the false advertising). I'm sure the airlines have phrased the term in a way to get around that problem.
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:50 pm



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 20):
Correct me if I'm wrong but the floor of your bed room is not sloped at an angle is it? The floor of an aircraft, while cruising generally is. If you've ever walked to your seat from the back of the aircraft, you'll have noticed you are walking up a slope, unless you're descending. So if you're in a flat bed, perfectly parallel to the floor then your head is going to be lower then your feet.

I think you're being a smidge melodramatic, its not like you're cruising with 10deg pitch up. You're feeling maybe 2-3 degrees worth of up slope, and I do believe when you slap down a pillow you'll have solved that problem.
 
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PW100
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:36 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 3):
If a bed isn't 180 degrees flat to the floor, it isn't flat

So never mind the fact that under cruise conditions the floor isn't level with the earths surface, as most commercial aircraft have their fuselage set at a slightly positive angle. This way the fuselage generates a small amount of lift, reducing overall drag.

I can not see why a 180 degrees flat bed should be parallel with the floor, when you can not establish if the floor is parallel with the horizon . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
FlyEmirates
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:51 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 16):
I actually prefer an older styled heavy cushioned J seat (like DL's Biz Elite) than angular-flat seat



Quoting Jetfan (Reply 23):
although fully flat, were a little bit hard.

I have yet to come across any modern J class and F class seats that have enough padding for my liking. You are paying for the 'engonomic design', huge amounts of plastic and the space, but what about the comfort? I flew on BA old club recently and although flat it wasnt much more comfortable than lying on those foam mats that you use for camping

EKs new J class seat has about an inch and a half of foam, and thats it.

I remember flying F on TG with the old seats, not so flat but they were so comfortable, due to the cushioning.

Has anyone sat in a lazyboy? Whats the problem with installing seats with lots of oversized cushioning.

If I installed small semi private 'Marriot' beds onboard do you think i would get any business? no brainer

Even with access to ID90 in J class I still fly economy, i dont seem to sleep any better than I do in Y class

Airlines need to focus on seating comfort
 
ayqzbr
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:11 pm

To me the issue is the ability to adjust the seat to suit my idea of comfort. I have had the "sliding off" experience in the original SQ J seat, which was also very hard and in my mind uncomfortable. My most recent experience is the AC seat, on which you can adjust individuallly the back angle, the headrest and the leg support. In that way, it is possible to find a position that suits my body. And when I put the seat into the full flat position, I did feel as though my head was too low. Did I sleep - not much, but it sure beats asking myself "are we there yet" on a 10 hour flight in cramped conditions.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:19 pm



Quoting PW100 (Reply 30):
So never mind the fact that under cruise conditions the floor isn't level with the earths surface, as most commercial aircraft have their fuselage set at a slightly positive angle

The very slight nose-up angle does NOT compensate for the slope of the seat - at least not on all the slopey-flat J seats I've tried (EK, LH, IB, LX, AF) - the seat still slopes ergo it is not flat.

I agree with the earlier comment about TG's old F seats - they were flat and well cushioned, they were really comfortable.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
gkyip
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:36 pm



Quoting Readytotaxi (Thread starter):
"having a level and even surface, not sloping"



Quoting Davescj (Reply 2):
If it ain't 180, it ain't flat.....period



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 3):
If a bed isn't 180 degrees flat to the floor, it isn't flat.

I agree, but strict adherance to this definition would mean that most, in fact, all carriers beds fail as there are slight imperfections in the flatness of the bed. I know especially on BA Club World, an annoying new feature is that when fully 'flat' the bed is not solid and rocks whenever you change position. Very annoying!

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 14):
The other interesting question is, out of the above how many have their entire long haul fleet standardised

I believe VS has only 1 remaining aircraft fitted with old style seating. BA has a fully flat bed all throughout their long haul fleet although not a standardised seat type.

Gary
The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee
 
AEROFAN
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:52 pm

JGPH1A,

totally agree with you. i remember when vs introduced their j2000 seats in a rushed response to ba's flat bed. gawwwwwwwwwwwdddd awful seat. and the oft trumpted cruising with nose up yada yada yada was used as well. what a bunch of crock!!!!!!!!
all those airlines who advised flat bed seats but yet have that sloping crap should be sue for false advertising.
 
mymiles2go
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:00 pm

RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:53 pm



Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 14):
How many carriers actually offer a TRUE flat bed in Business Class these days? I.e. 180 degrees horizontal to the ground!

Etihad
South African
Virgin
British Airways
Air New Zealand

any others...?

Add to that United's new business class (which is in operation on one aircraft).
 
chumley
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Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:39 am

RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:22 pm



Quoting PW100 (Reply 30):
I can not see why a 180 degrees flat bed should be parallel with the floor, when you can not establish if the floor is parallel with the horizon . . .

Perhaps a nice cushy hammock is the only solution.  no 
 
baw716
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:23 pm



Quoting Farzan (Reply 24):
Flew Bangkok - Copenhagen on SAS 340 last week. Their "flatbed" was the worst ever. Not only are the seats sloped in an angle, but with no foot rest it is impossible to stay in the "bed". The angle makes you slide out of the seat.

Unfortunately, you are correct. In my opinion, SK went with a "cheap" (if $30000 a seat pair is "cheap") sloped option. In fact, their flat seat isn't even completely flat. In its completely reclined "sleeping" position, the seat has a 5 degree drop where the seat pan joins the leg rest. I haven't flown it, but some tell me that it is worse than the seat they previously had; some tell me it's better.

This brings me to the big question about flat seats....are they that much better? The reviews I've read from the true flat seats are a lot better from any sloped seat. In fact, VS, the first carrier to introduce a sloped flat seat product dumped it in favor of its existing product because so many Upper Class customers were unhappy about the comfort of the sloped seat. That cost VS a bundle of money. Thankfully, Richard Branson has money to burn.

In one of the comments above, the Business Elite seat of DL was rated more favorably than some of the flat seat products. I've flown extensively in that seat and I can personally attest to the fact that it is a very comfortable seat (for the type of seat it is), my only complaint was that the leg rest did not rise enough to get me to a more or less flat reclined position. I solved that problem by putting my small cabin bag on the leg rest and a couple of pillows on top of that. Worked great for me. My only complaint about the seat was that it was quite narrow.

This particular issue (narrowness) is the number one issue with most of the flat seat products. In order to get the mechanics in place, what was sacrificed was seat width. For me, seat width is the number one critical issue, because I am big guy (about 245lbs). I fit just fine in the DL seat, but the existing UA business class seat was the best "lounge" seat that I've flown in (and I've done a lot of flying in J class). 'The new UA business class seat is a true lie flat seat; however, the big issue will be seat width, which on their 767s is extremely narrow (think Y class seat in a true lie flat configuration) If you are big, you are screwed.

Airlines are spending millions of dollars to purchase products to be competitive, but in my opinion, I don't think they are doing enough "market" testing of the products. Between trying to diffferentiate themselves from one another and come up with more "goodies" for the J/F passengers, airlines have missed the mark when it comes to comfort. I believe as seat technology continues to evolve, airlines will be forced to spend more money on updating their fleets to stay competitive, which means that J class (especially) will get more expensive...they have to pay for their mistakes somehow...and it will come out of our pockets.

Sometimes, to go forward, you have to take a step backward. Some of these carriers need to learn that lesson.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
LXA340
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:39 pm



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 38):

Sometimes, to go forward, you have to take a step backward. Some of these carriers need to learn that lesson.

In the case of AA for instance I doubt they will make any changes to their "new" business class that they are introducing now fleet wide which is a lie flat seat that is already outdated... I gues this product will remain for the next 10 years or so.
 
gaystudpilot
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:38 am

[quote=GeorgiaAME,reply=12][/I slept for 5 hours last week in a W shaped, 18.5 inch wide delta businesselite seat. Somewhat primitive by today's standards, and I really hate to say it, but it was more comfortable than the AF non-horizontal to the ground flat bed in their business class. As many of us know, it really is about how wide it is, not how long or straight. Bon voyage, bon nuit and vive la differance.]


I'm not a fan of the AF seat. On hops to continental Europe from the US East Coast I'd rather be in a DL BusinessElite style seat if true flat is not available.

Agree with GeorgiaAME, width is most important. However, I like good length too since I'm 6'4". A couple of extra inches makes a difference. And I certainly prefer straight over curving to the left or right-- UAs new business class seats make your feet go to one side or the other vs straight to get the length.
 
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RE: The "Flat Bed" Debate

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:47 pm

Many thanks to all who contributed to the debate, it is apparent that we all sleep differently and as always have our own likes and dislikes, I guess the airlines will continue to advertise a lay flat seat, even at an angle, as a zoo would advertise a new Zebra, a black horse with white stripes or is that a white horse with black stripes.  Big grin
Thanks for the input !
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