Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:27 pm



Quoting JerseyGuy (Reply 15):
Someone has to say it so I will

Long rumored Midwest Hub City

That sounds great and I wouldn't be surprised if something along these lines happens down the road, but in the meantime, how do you pay for a shiny new terminal when you are slot restricted and cannot grow? I realize the FAA is a higher authority than the PANYNJ, but the Port is going to want their money back too. I don't know the details on the new terminal but I'm guessing the Port's share of building this terminal is much bigger than JetBlue's share.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
Saw an interesting documentary about the building of B6's new "super efficient" terminal, talking how it's built around the A320s and EMB170s, no allowance for anything bigger.

From what I have seen, it looks like it is for narrowbodied equipment only although I'm sure some of the gates could handle larger types in a push. But this terminal was not designed for 747s, clearly. I guess there is always the old TowerAir terminal (hangar)!



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 47):
I think the problem is that one flight that does connect to the international bank. JFK doesn't have problems with a mid morning flight before internationals are arriving at full speed. That's how small airports can keep New York service. The three airports aren't that congested 9am-1pm.

I've flown out of JFK at all different times and even at 11AM you can have a wait for takeoff. It is bad but not awful. Unlike 4PM-9PM when it truly is horrendous. It doesn't really matter which airline, JFK is not a good airport in the late afternoon and evening hours. Throw in some bad weather (it doesn't even have to be that bad really) and it compounds the situation even more. 1-2 hour waits for takeoff are becoming the norm if it has rained or is raining at any time during the day.
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 3315
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:32 pm

If the ground transportation options were expanded at SWF and the Port Authority made it free for the first two years at SWF, I wonder if we could see those airlines with only 1-2x and no codeshare feeders perhaps switch to SWF? Obviously we're not talking about any of the major players, but anyone not codesharing and having less than 2-3 daily flights could do it. Make it financially worth the airlines while, and provide several ground transportation options for the passengers (convenient rail & bus).

I think it could potentially week out 10 peak hour flights 20 operations from 4-6pm which would probably have a noticeable impact.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:34 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
Will the madness never end?

We need more runways, and more efficient airspace use, and better ATC. We don't need to be artificially constraining capacity even more.

You are so right. The government in general and the FAA in particular seems to accomplish almost nothing these days. What's needed is leadership that is outside the political arena to start getting things done. The flagship city in the country should have a state of the art facility not constrained by a ridiculous patch-work of solutions. Sorry, but the nimbys and tree huggers just have to be squashed in some cases.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):
That's incorrect. Anyone can start new international service. No one except carriers with fewer than 8 arrival authorizations can start new domestic service. How is that unfair?

It's unfair because the companies that have paid millions of dollars over many years to build the facilities and infrastructure are being penalized. New entrants should be denied and their routes frozen until a permanent solution is found. It makes no sense to take slots away from established companies to give them to a company with no track record. International routes require feed. If you deny the carriers the ability to feed their international routes they won't start them in the first place.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15309
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:43 pm



Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 52):
It makes no sense to take slots away from established companies to give them to a company with no track record.

...except that no one gets anything taken away at ORD. See 14 C.F.R. 93.29.

Quote:
(b) Notwithstanding the limit on Arrival Authorization in § 93.23(a), any U.S. or Canadian air carrier arriving at O'Hare from a foreign point, excluding Canada, shall be assigned an Arrival Authorization under this section for that flight.

(c) Notwithstanding the limit on Arrival Authorizations in § 93.23(a), any non-Canadian, foreign air carrier conducting scheduled service and arriving at O'Hare shall be assigned an Arrival Authorization under this section for that flight.

 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11227
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:07 pm



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 47):
We all know how connection based hubs have been doing recently. STL, PIT...

DFW does very well.

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 52):
It makes no sense to take slots away from established companies to give them to a company with no track record.

That is why the US Government will do it.......because it makes no sense.

Remeber, it is the US Government that is responsible for creating the TSA.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:21 pm



Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 52):
The flagship city in the country should have a state of the art facility not constrained by a ridiculous patch-work of solutions.

I agree, but there are excellent congestion solutions available. Look at FRA and NRT. Slot constrained because of their large national economies.

Our inability to deal with even the smallest sacrifice (a few RJs) to save our entire national transportation system from chronic instability is what's madness to me. How immature to say every RJ has the right to land at JFK anytime they want. Or else build more runways?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 54):

That is why the US Government will do it.......because it makes no sense.

Makes sense to me. But instead of the Marxist central planning, they should instead use the market economy to allocate slots. You know, like Russia did after 1991. I hope they look it up, in case they forgot what used to make America special.
 
Humberside
Posts: 3242
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:23 pm



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 51):
If the ground transportation options were expanded at SWF and the Port Authority made it free for the first two years at SWF, I wonder if we could see those airlines with only 1-2x and no codeshare feeders perhaps switch to SWF? Obviously we're not talking about any of the major players, but anyone not codesharing and having less than 2-3 daily flights could do it. Make it financially worth the airlines while, and provide several ground transportation options for the passengers (convenient rail & bus).

I think it could potentially week out 10 peak hour flights 20 operations from 4-6pm which would probably have a noticeable impact.

How many airlines fit into the category though? Zoom, Sun Country, Eurofly are some I can think off but such a plan would only have a very minor effect (less than 20 flights a day I would imagine). Quite a few of the smaller airlines at JFK have deals with other carriers (AFAIK the likes of Aerosvit, RAM, Royal Jordanian, Egyptair have interline or codeshare deals with US partners at JFK)

Moving to SWF may have an affect on the viability of these airlines services. From what I've read SWF is a long way from New York City and to be a viable NYC area airport would probably need a high speed rail link (more than a stopping train service or bus link to the nearest rail station)

Shame that the best alternative to JFK, EWR, also has issues
 
BooDog
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:44 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:25 pm

Here's my simple solution:

a. If an airline offers under 799 seats a day on any route, the airline is limited to eight flights a day on that route.

b. If an airline offers over 800 seats a day on any route, the airline is limited to twelve flights a day on that route.

c. If the average seats per flight offered is above 200, then there is no flight limit.

NOTES:
1. The flights of all contracted regional carriers will be included with the contracted mainline. (Example: all AA and American Eagle flights are averaged together)

2. a 'day' starts at 5:00a local airport time and ends at 11:00p local airport time. Flights departing between11pm and 5:00am are unlimited; they do not count in any averages or flight limits.

If this solution doesn't work, then we increase averages/decrease flight numbers until it does.

What this cuts:
reduces hourly shuttle flights to 90-minute shuttle flights
ends airline's 18-20 flights/day with a majority of 737/M80's (AA and UA ORD-LGA, AA ORD-DFW, DL ATL-LGA)

opinions a.net world?

[Edited 2007-12-10 10:27:04]
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15309
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:33 pm



Quoting BooDog (Reply 57):
What this cuts:
reduces hourly shuttle flights to 90-minute shuttle flights
ends airline's 18-20 flights/day with a majority of 737/M80's (AA and UA ORD-LGA, AA ORD-DFW, DL ATL-LGA)

How many routes not involving LGA does this affect? If a carrier paid for an LGA slot, shouldn't it be that carrier's problem how the slot is used? It seems like other than at LGA, this would have almost no effect.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA &

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:31 pm



Quoting FFlyer (Reply 9):
As far as reported in media, SWF actually has one of the longest runways in the country. Capable of handling anything up to A380, AN-225, or Space Shuttle.

If you have a long run way utilize it! The port authority should work on building up the terminal and advertise more to airlines. They should offer less landing slot prices and less competition.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 30):
Like what? A cash offset for lost revenue?

How about less competition, room to build your own terminal, and a location away from the city where ther is more room for future expansion.

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):
HPN will never be a major airport for the NYC area, the Greenwich NIMBYs won't stand for it.

Stupid me! Most of them probably have only flown private.
Blue
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:56 pm



Quoting BooDog (Reply 57):
What this cuts:
reduces hourly shuttle flights to 90-minute shuttle flights
ends airline's 18-20 flights/day with a majority of 737/M80's (AA and UA ORD-LGA, AA ORD-DFW, DL ATL-LGA)

opinions a.net world?

While this sounds great and fair, I wonder what sort of an impact this will have? How many flights would this actually eliminate?
Clearly it will affect some carriers more than others and they are going to crying foul, right? I like its simplicity but I fear the answers are not quite so simple.
 
LawnDart
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:33 pm

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:04 am



Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 25):
EWR has never been slot controlled, so it is interesting to see the FAA including EWR in any proposed changes.

Not so...

"In 1968, the FAA promulgated the High Density Traffic Airports Rule
(High Density Rule), 14 CFR part 93, subpart K, to reduce delays at
five congested airports: John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK),
LaGuardia, O'Hare International Airport (O'Hare), Ronald Reagan
Washington National Airport, and Newark International Airport (Newark)
(33 FR 17896; December 3, 1968). The regulation limited the number of
instrument flight rules (IFR) operations at each airport during certain
hours of each day. It did so by allocating operational authority to air
carriers in the form of a ''slot,'' for each IFR takeoff or landing
during a specified 30- or 60-minute period. The FAA lifted the
restrictions at Newark in the early 1970s."


Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
You make a given set of slots at each airport. No more flights may be scheduled than there are slots. Period. Slots are assigned either by lottery or by auction. An airline didn't get a slot? They can code-share with an airline who did. You used to have 8 flights a day and now you can only have 3? Fine, get a 777 and combine all those silly 737 flights.

New York City is in serious trouble. If this city doesn't get its infrastructure fixed (and soon), the city is going to face a decline from being a world center of cultural power to a nothing.

These two paragraphs caught my attention, and not in a good way. First, you state that "you" (the gov't, I suppose) make a given set of slots at each airport. Been there, done that...congestion was still a problem. And how do you propose allocating slots? And if Delta doesn't get a slot, think American will let them codeshare?  laughing  Oh, and get a 777...fine, tell JetBlue to combine their, what, 12 dailies to FLL into 6 777 flights...

Then, you state that NYC is in serious trouble...I would tend to agree. You state "If this city doesn't get its infrastructure fixed "...so, fix the infrastructure! Stop with the slot this, value-pricing that and fix the damned infrastructure!!!

The real cost of delays has probably never been measured (as a whole), but the fuel burned, the pollution expelled, the man-hours spent must add up to billions in real cost...some might say "a new runway will attract more flights"...yes, if the demand is there!

Quoting Flighty (Reply 55):
How immature to say every RJ has the right to land at JFK anytime they want. Or else build more runways?

Well, is it immature of me to say every (ok, a lot of...) RJ has the right to land at LGA? How about DCA...ORD...what about ATL? It's congested...I know, kick all RJ service out of JFK / LGA / EWR / ATL / DCA / ORD...ooh, and FLL...it's congested...what cities lose service to these large metro areas? Burlington, VT? Bullshi* on that says BTV...take it away from MHT...no, MHT needs connections to JFK for the international industrial base they have or hope to attract...get rid of RJ service to...hmmm...
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:26 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 48):
So if peak pricing is "discriminatory pricing", is a slot auction really all that different? I'm not implying that you think it is, it's just a question.

Slot auctions are discriminatory as well. The only way to really make a dent is a capacity rule. Right now, they stack RJs because its cheaper to have an RJ sit than it is a 737, when they stack RJ's delays explode. The second component is to stop overbuilding airports. If a gate is available, the airlines will schedule a flight. The gate build out recommendations by the FAA are equal to the VFR handling rate +15%. Obviously, a scenario is being created where the number of flights than can be scheduled from gates outpaces the operational handling capability of the airport. Throw in some weather and all hell breaks loose. Limit gate builds to the IFR rate +15% and much of the problem goes away The 15% allows for turn times where some aircraft won't actually arrive or depart in a 2 hour window - of course Southwest will crush an airport with half the gates of the IFR rate because of their high gate utilization, but that the one exception. Everyone else is between 4.9 and 5.9 ops per day per gate). If you want to control a market without market controls, then you have to set up a gate to runway model that doesn't crush your airport, which is what the FAA has done.
 
eghansen
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:33 pm

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:57 am

Another link regarding the same subject, this time in the NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/11/nyregion/11airport.html
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:23 pm

According to this morning's Washington Post, the announcement is imminent.

Quote:
Flights at N.Y.'s JFK To Be Capped
Regulators Move Against Delays
By Del Quentin Wilber, Page D01
Federal regulators are expected to announce measures today restricting flights at a major New York airport in a move that they hope will alleviate chronic flight delays across the country.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/12/18/AR2007121802000.html
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14545
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:14 pm

I think there's a mistake with the New York Times article, the Government announced today they are limiting JFK to no more than 82 departures an hour.

Quote:
:
"I had hoped to be able to avoid caps but the truth is for the short term, for the next few years this is the solution that will provide some relief for travelers," Peters said.

Under new rules that take effect in March, JFK will only be allowed 82 or 83 flights per hour at peak times, down significantly from the 90 to 100 that had been scheduled this past summer. Similar caps will go into effect at Newark, but the exact number has yet to be determined. LaGuardia already has limits on flights.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071219/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/airline_delays
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15309
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:13 pm

What exactly does the government think will be different in 2 years?

Quote:
The government described the New York airport caps as a short-term approach lasting two years, at which point officials said they hope new technology and modernized systems will allow for greater capacity in the region.

 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:30 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 66):
What exactly does the government think will be different in 2 years?

A new administration peut etre? Someone else to take the blame for lack of infrastructure?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15309
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:34 pm



Quoting ANother (Reply 67):

A new administration peut etre? Someone else to take the blame for lack of infrastructure?

 checkmark  It's the only thing I can think of.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:35 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
It's unclear where DL would stand as they have not invested near what CO, AA and B6 have invested in their facilities

hahaha........sure hope your joking about DL......i think it was 3 or 4 bill on the JFK hub(when they bought it from PA)

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):
SRB has made it pretty clear through his VX minions that he's not happy about the government stepping in at JFK)...

to bad the government doesn't care if SRB is happy or not
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3584
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:08 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
We need more runways, and more efficient airspace use, and better ATC. We don't need to be artificially constraining capacity even more.

This is the same logic that says that if you build more highways, you'll have less traffic. Problem is it's not true, and we know it from experience. Build more roads and you have *more* traffic, because people buy more cars and fill the capacity up. Eventually you get gridlock again, and you end up having to continuously upgrade infrastructure because you are forever playing catchup. You throw all the planning out the window and the chaos just gets worse and worse.

Do we want our air system to be the equivalent of the Los Angeles freeway system?

There's no such thing as an "artificial constraint" on capacity, there are only constraints on capacity. (Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode, "there are no BIG coincidences and SMALL coincidences, there are just coincidences!") Capacity doesn't exist until you make it; you have to actively increase it for there to be more. Keeping an airport a certain size is not "artificially" constraining anything.

The New York airports only work as well as they do because the government (including the PA, which is a government agency) actively manages them as one system. As soon as you stop managing the system and instead let the system manage you, you end up with anarchy. And that is not good for anybody. We're perilously close to that. What's needed is more management and more long-term planning, not less.

Every time one rule or another that was intended to manage the system gets relaxed, all hell breaks loose and it ends up affecting the entire system around the nation. We've seen it at LGA and now we're seeing it at JFK. You'd think people would learn their lesson. The airlines are not altruistic; they are only out for their short term financial self interests, and they will do whatever they can to ensure those financial self interests even to the detriment of others (and eventually their own long term viability).
 
lowecur
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:18 pm

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:38 pm

Not too many specifics in this report. It sounds to me like there could be a similar number of flights from 6:30am till 9:30 pm, but the peak hours will lose and off peak will gain. If there are some actual reductions, DL, AA, and B6 will probably elect to fly larger capacity a/c to compensate. Sounds like the DOT/FAA and the airlines have already agreed on a rearranged schedule, although no one is saying if there are winners and losers here. There was some talk that they would go back 12 months and preference would go to those flts first.

VX seems to be the big loser here if they have to bid on future slots. Because of the limited number of flights they operate, that will skew their costs to operate at JFK way above Jetblue.

Apparently, the carriers at Newark are negotiating with the DOT/FAA about similar reductions. Since CA is the 800lb gorilla and operates an inordinate number of RJ's, they could be forced to fly fewer flights and larger a/c on many routes. I know the Q400s are supposed to help, but that will only be 15 a/c once deliveries are completed. Got to wonder if slots will be sold there also?

Nothing mentioned on LGA, so I guess everything is status quo for now.

[Edited 2007-12-19 13:41:10]

[Edited 2007-12-19 13:42:29]
 
User avatar
teme82
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:38 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:45 pm

If that slot auction in JFK comes in to reality AY could end up getting so bad slots times that they will be thinking of scraping JFK route  Sad
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14545
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:53 pm



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 69):
i think it was 3 or 4 bill on the JFK hub(when they bought it from PA)

No where near that, DL paid $260 Million for the Shuttle and Trans-Atlantic operations of Pan Am in 1991.
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:57 pm



Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 52):
International routes require feed. If you deny the carriers the ability to feed their international routes they won't start them in the first place.

I don't beleive it's that simple with codeshares and alliances. At ORD AA may not mind BA bringing in more flights if it feeds their domestic routes. It would be the same with LH and UA. Maybe an alliance should have a total limit and let it decide how it splits that between domestic and international.

Also, There is plenty of talk on here about aircraft size. Instead why not concentrate on frequency so that the average PAX is not too inconvenienced. Limit destinations to one per hour per airline, that way Podunk could keep it's 3 flights a day to JFK if spread throughout the day but key routes to ORD etc would be limited to 1 per hour and airlines would have to match aircraft size with demand for that hour rather than resort to 30 or 45 minute frequencies.
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:00 pm

The real loser here will, ultimately, be the consumer (yet again). As capacity is reduced, fares will go up to compensate.

I suppose some airlines will benefit from this and others will cry foul but it is clear to me that something had to happen at JFK. I stand by what I said - I don't like the government mandating who can fly when and how often. I'd have preferred some variation on "congestion pricing" and let the airlines figure it out. Raising takeoff rates or landing fees of scheduled flights during those peak hours would have forced the airlines to make their own changes and consolidations.

At any rate, there was never going to be an easy answer. It will be interesting to see how JFK's biggest players (AA, DL and B6) adjust their schedules or equipment to deal with these new restrictions.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:25 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 73):
No where near that, DL paid $260 Million for the Shuttle and Trans-Atlantic operations of Pan Am in 1991.

DL also assumed hundreds of millions of dollars of ticket liabilities and debt. DL's cost was certainly in the billions.

But the basis of the discussion is that one airline according to this person (CO) has invested far more in NYC facilities so their investment will be protected by way of allowing them not to lose slots. So, should we not take away all of UA's slots 'cause they haven't invested in anything at JFK - neither has NW. And all of those foreign carriers except for BA have just leased space. Besides, CO wasn't interested in its LGA terminal so gave it up to US so we should take those gates from them? After all, DL did have the forethought to build a LGA terminal.

The logic that your air rights are protected by your terminal investment doesn't fly - but it is also not what the government. Every carrier that serves JFK - and NYC - now is considered to have made an investment. The issue is with new entrants vs. existing carriers.
 
BooDog
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:44 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:36 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 65):
think there's a mistake with the New York Times article, the Government announced today they are limiting JFK to no more than 82 departures an hour.

This was the ABC national news leading story just a few minutes ago.

JFK capped at 83 flights.

Military airspace being opened up on BOTH coasts for christmas season.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14545
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA &

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:08 am



Quoting Worldtraveler (Reply 76):
But the basis of the discussion is that one airline according to this person (CO) has invested far more in NYC facilities so their investment will be protected by way of allowing them not to lose slots

Your assertion is inaccurate, I included AA and B6. AA, CO and B6 have made significant commitments and investments at EWR and JFK as I mentioned below.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
I don't know if it's mentioned in this article, it was mentioned elsewhere that the lottery would take into account airlines who have already made significant infrastructure investments in their respective facilities at EWR and JFK.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
It's unclear where DL would stand as they have not invested near what CO, AA and B6 have invested in their facilities.

It's hard to argue anything other than DL has nickle and dimed their JFK operation since the beginning, and have been a Johnny come lately with regards to major commitments to JFK. Unfortunately they may be further down the priorities list with regards to JFK because of their lack of commitment as demonstrated through their thriftiness of their investment over the years, and that much of the recent problems at JFK have arisen because of DL's recent growth. I would think the first to go would be the most recently added, which would be problematic for DL as AA's growth at JFK has been where it's at for a long time, B6's growth has slowed in the last two years. Much of the recently added flights at JFK are DL's.

DL has been at JFK way longer than B6, yet B6 is nearly complete with their major Terminal Redevelopment. B6 has also invested in non terminal facilities at JFK including maintenance facilities for their aircraft. DL does not even have a hangar at JFK, for what it's worth.

With CO's major Terminal and airport facilities redevelopment also came increased leased payments to the Port Authority, I'm sure part of DL's reasoning behind their lack of significant investment at JFK is their hesitancy to pay more for their lease.

JFK's cap of 82 departures per peak hours beginning in March will be divided amongst AA, B6, DL and the plethora of International carriers at JFK. Each carrier is either have to be luck in a lottery or make a case that they deserve to have the slots, I see AA, B6 as having much more standing to argue for slots given their significant financial commitments to their respective JFK operations over the years. AA and B6 may be in a better position to lobby for slots, based on past commitments (or lack there of).
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:12 am



Quoting Worldtraveler (Reply 76):
So, should we not take away all of UA's slots 'cause they haven't invested in anything at JFK

I would count P.S. as an investment in JFK. It's not much of a terminal investment, but it is a commitment of upgraded service to the airport.

-Mir
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
NOBODY needs to choose between 28 flights per day. Five or six would offer quite adequate flexibility.

Are how do you expect to squeeze all these people on 6 flights? You can't be serious! Those 28+ flights regualry goes out full when they schedule is actually at it's highest during certain days of the week.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 42):
Didn't we already do that?

No. We deregulated in '79, he's saying let's get rid of that legislation and go back to a regulated air industry.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 54):
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 47):
We all know how connection based hubs have been doing recently. STL, PIT...

ATL seems to be doing fine to me.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:36 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 78):
Your assertion is inaccurate, I included AA and B6. AA, CO and B6 have made significant commitments and investments at EWR and JFK as I mentioned below.

You assume that DL has made NO investments at JFK which is not true. If we start auctioning off airspace throughout the US based on what carriers have done on the ground for ground investments, there will be alot of flights that won't be flying and DL will fair alot better than other carriers, including CO.

But that will only happen in your dreams. So fantasize all you want but NO airline will lose flights based on their lack of investment in airport facilities nor will any other carrier be given additional slots or be protected from what happens to every other carrier because of any investment they have made.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14545
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA &

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:51 am



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 81):
You assume that DL has made NO investments at JFK which is not true.

I didn't say DL has not invested anything in JFK, it must of cost them something to paint T-2 those lovely Song green and purple colors.  wink 
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:33 am

so, since they have indeed invested something, then you are proosing that airspace access be granted based on the investment carriers have made in airports? not going to happen.

you do realize that airports and airspace are not even operated by the same governmental bodies in the US, don't you know?
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:49 am



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 83):
you do realize that airports and airspace are not even operated by the same governmental bodies in the US, don't you know?

Also, there is the issue of private vs public property. The airspace is public property. It does not belong to airlines, it belongs to the American people. What's important is not to give corporations free grants, but make sure the people are served in the best possible way.

Slot auctions, or ideally slot rentals (congestion pricing) are the ways the American people can ensure the right outcome. Otherwise, there is no mechanism to make the correct decisions. Somebody built a terminal, so they get a chokehold on the economy of NYC? Don't think so.

Instead, it's flight profitability (and hence, ability to pay congestion fees) that measures the NYC travel market's true priorities, and honors those priorities. The most profitable flights are the market economy's view of which flights deserve a slot. Basing the decision on something else is, in my view, corruption.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14545
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:50 am



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 83):
then you are proosing that airspace access be granted based on the investment carriers have made in airports?

Asking that in the event of a slot lottery special protocols should exist to protect carriers who have made the most significant investments in their respective facilities be taking into consideration is fair, yes the folks doing the lottery are not the same ones who the airlines send their lease payments to for the use of their respective facilities. They are not obligated to do anything other to take into consideration such investments as course of any lottery, in such a scenario DL's argument for special treatment at JFK would be weighed in conjunction to AA and B6's similar arguments.

DL weighted against AA and B6 comes up short, in terms of financial commitments.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:54 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 78):
DL does not even have a hangar at JFK, for what it's worth.

first where can they put one? second the don't even really use the ones they have(in BOS,CVG,SLC) ATL is where they do most of the MX that needs a hangar so they should build one just for the hell of it? that makes since

Quoting STT757 (Reply 78):
I see AA, B6 as having much more standing to argue for slots given their significant financial commitments to their respective JFK operations over the years. AA and B6 may be in a better position to lobby for slots, based on past commitments (or lack there of).

again DL has put billions into JFK just not into a brand new terminal.........and FYI T2 and WorldPort is not that bad(even though that walk from T2 to T3 gate 4 is a long one lol)

Quoting STT757 (Reply 82):
I didn't say DL has not invested anything in JFK, it must of cost them something to paint T-2 those lovely Song green and purple colors.

yea you did
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:02 am



Quoting Richierich (Reply 75):
The real loser here will, ultimately, be the consumer (yet again). As capacity is reduced, fares will go up to compensate.

With the frequent delays caused by congestion in the NYC airspace, the consumer is already losing. The last time I was in IAD, arriving from the west coast, I looked at the arrival and departure board while waiting for my luggage. The overwhelming number of late and cancelled flights were in and outbound northeast corridor flights.

Just as you can only put so much water through a garden hose, a given airport can only handle a finite number of departures and arrivals. I've sat on the ground countless times at Dulles, waiting for permission to take off - not because Dulles can't handle the traffic, but because the ATC system in the NE US is near saturation.

Yes, there are alternatives to capping the number of departures, but none of them are viable in the short term. Comnavia is right - we need more runways, more efficient airspace use, and better ATC. But those can't be created overnight, and in the short term, capacity must be constrained - as distasteful as that is.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:32 am



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 86):
first where can they put one?

JetBlue found the space. IIRC there are a few hangars in the North Cargo Area that aren't being used by anyone.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 86):
second the don't even really use the ones they have(in BOS,CVG,SLC) ATL is where they do most of the MX that needs a hangar so they should build one just for the hell of it?

No. If they want to be Atlanta's airline, that's fine. But then they shouldn't expect the seas to part for them in New York where two other airlines have made significant long-term investments in making themselves New York's airline.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 86):
and FYI T2 and WorldPort is not that bad

Yes it is. Now that the old T8 is gone it's easily the worst terminal at the airport.

-Mir
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14545
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:47 am



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 86):
first where can they put one?



Quoting Mir (Reply 88):
JetBlue found the space. IIRC there are a few hangars in the North Cargo Area that aren't being used by anyone

There's tons of places, they could redevelop the land where the former TWA or Pan Am hangars are located, or the land where the former TWA cargo building is located, or the land where the former Tower Air Terminal is located, or the land where the former Tower Air 747 hangars occupies, or redevelop the land where the former FedEx hangars are located etc.. The DL cargo building at JFK is not exactly state of the art either, CO has a more modern Cargo hangar at JFK and most of their JFK cargo is trucked to EWR.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8613
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:17 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 32):
Where do you get that from? In my world, if a flight costs too much to fly, it gets cut or re-timed. Which is exactly what will happen when $5000 daily tags get put on peak time slots. The flights get cut, or the price goes up again. Bidding wars are futile because the slot rental market is liquid. Any traffic jam can be tamed by congestion pricing, even JFK. Would the result be economically optimal, yes.

The point is, the goal gets achieved, no matter what. You can't say the airport would remain crowded under peak pricing because that's simply untrue. Prices would rise until the goal is achieved, by definition. The NYC traffic jams are costing everybody in the country money. Airline disturbances like this are incredibly costly.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8613
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:19 am



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 34):
In the real world, the carriers with buying power redistribute those costs across the system. Only those who can afford to pay can play. That's the definition of discriminatory pricing and is against Federal Law.

Take it high enough and it will work. Some bad law or some judge with a bad interpretation of a good law is a whole different problem to solve.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:22 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 88):
No. If they want to be Atlanta's airline, that's fine. But then they shouldn't expect the seas to part for them in New York where two other airlines have made significant long-term investments in making themselves New York's airline.

dam so you are saying that they can only be a one city airline?(being a smartass)

Quoting STT757 (Reply 89):
There's tons of places, they could redevelop the land where the former TWA or Pan Am hangars are located, or the land where the former TWA cargo building is located, or the land where the former Tower Air Terminal is located, or the land where the former Tower Air 747 hangars occupies, or redevelop the land where the former FedEx hangars are located etc.. The DL cargo building at JFK is not exactly state of the art either, CO has a more modern Cargo hangar at JFK and most of their JFK cargo is trucked to EWR.

well i guess guess you and Mir feel that airlines can pull money out of there ass.(wish i could do that) i still dont see why you have to have a brand new hangar or cargo building........the TOC in ATL is 20-30 years old do they need a new one? no...........the way i look at it is this deal with WorldPort and get new 73Gs 752s 77Ls PTVs and AVOD on most planes or get a new JFK terminal and FYI i think UA has those old PA hangars
(would also note the DL has talked about buying the TowerAir terminal and building a new one there)
DL is short on money but they have also said they JFK is #1 (meaning they are working on a plan for a new terminal)
its coming but the idea Delta hasn't not put money into JFK is just plain stupid as i said DL has put bills into JFK over the years plus buying JFK from PA.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:02 am

Well, I guess this proposal was to be expected - disappointing and disgusting, to be sure, but not surprising. What more should we expect, after all?

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 70):
This is the same logic that says that if you build more highways, you'll have less traffic. Problem is it's not true, and we know it from experience. Build more roads and you have *more* traffic, because people buy more cars and fill the capacity up.

Come down here to Texas and say that. Lots of roads, and lots of space to grow, and yet - amazingly - relatively minimal traffic when compared with places like New York, California, etc.

The reason why people have more cars, and "fill the capacity up," is not because the roads are built in the first place, but because there are more people. That would seem to be pretty common sense. We don't live in a net-negative population growth environment: the number of people in America is growing - fairly rapidly - and thus more people are going to buy cars, and thus more people are going to drive them, and thus more roads will be need. Again, pretty simple.

The same applies to air travel, in New York, and elsewhere in the country: more people = more planes = more flights. Fairly straightforward, pretty simple.

It's not like airlines keep adding flights in and out of JFK, and thus people just decide to fly. There are millions more people flying to, from and through JFK and all the New York airports than there were 20 years ago, and yet all of the airports in New York are operating with identical airfield capacity and almost identical facility capacity as they were back then.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 70):
Eventually you get gridlock again, and you end up having to continuously upgrade infrastructure because you are forever playing catchup.

Once again, that's what happens when you live in a country where the population is growing. Yeah, eventually you have to keep laying catch-up. It's the nature of things when more people need to fly, drive, eat, sleep, buy houses...in short: live.

What's the solution? People have to move around (at least in a free society). If people need to fly, what should we do? Are we just going to keep capping capacity forever? At what point do we decide that it's then time to start expanding - rather than contracting - the capacity of the system and its infrastructure?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15309
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:31 am



Quoting Boysteve (Reply 74):
Limit destinations to one per hour per airline, that way Podunk could keep it's 3 flights a day to JFK if spread throughout the day but key routes to ORD etc would be limited to 1 per hour and airlines would have to match aircraft size with demand for that hour rather than resort to 30 or 45 minute frequencies.

The effect of such a plan at JFK would be minimal, maybe reducing total flights by 5 to 10. Most departures at JFK, RJ and otherwise, are relatively spread out throughout the day. It isn't LGA...
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:03 am



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 92):
dam so you are saying that they can only be a one city airline?

American's presence at DFW is unquestioned, and they have recently completed new terminals at JFK and MIA, so obviously an airline can show a commitment to multiple places at once.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 92):
i still dont see why you have to have a brand new hangar or cargo building........the TOC in ATL is 20-30 years old do they need a new one? no

Never said they needed a new maintenance hangar. I said they need a maintenance hangar, or some sort of big investment that shows that they are in JFK for the long haul. They certainly have invested in getting new transatlantic flights out and opening up new routes, but those could be pulled relatively easily should DL decide to do that.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 92):
DL is short on money but they have also said they JFK is #1

And if they do put money into a new terminal, that will certainly count as a big investment.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 93):
At what point do we decide that it's then time to start expanding - rather than contracting - the capacity of the system and its infrastructure?

It had better be soon.

-Mir
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14545
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:37 pm



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 92):
(meaning they are working on a plan for a new terminal)

The last comments from DL are for a Terminal "overhaul", which to me means fixing what they got and maybe adding a new International concourse (perhaps at T-4 West ala the 2000 plan).
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22259
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:22 am



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 80):

Are how do you expect to squeeze all these people on 6 flights? You can't be serious! Those 28+ flights regualry goes out full when they schedule is actually at it's highest during certain days of the week.

Actually, I calculated it out on another thread.

Bottom line, there are about 4,900 seats from NYC-SFO every day on 26 aircraft. 8 of these are 737-800's.

8 A380's could carry as many people. So could 9-10 748's.

What, fly 10 748's from New York to SFO every day?

YUP!!!! Ten flights is more than enough. It would also be environmentally more friendly.

Honestly, I think the industry has adequately demonstrated that it is completely incapable of running itself. The level of service has plummeted and delays are intolerably high. So regulate the living daylights out of it. Inform the airlines that there will be 10 flights from NYC to SFO daily and that they should consider their choice of aircraft model carefully.

There should be no fewer than three flights to any given destination daily. However, any destination with greater than three flights should have the number of flights regulated to force airlines to use the largest airplane that can offer adequate service.

At this point, the delays are costing so much that almost any fare hike makes it worth it.

I for one, have had it with New York City. I'm outta here.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:16 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 93):
It's not like airlines keep adding flights in and out of JFK, and thus people just decide to fly. There are millions more people flying to, from and through JFK and all the New York airports than there were 20 years ago, and yet all of the airports in New York are operating with identical airfield capacity and almost identical facility capacity as they were back then.

Which is why this stopgap measure was necessary. You can't keep adding more and more capacity into the existing infrastructure. Does the area need more runways and terminals? Yes. But until they are built, capping departures, while not the best outcome, is a necessary one.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR

Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:57 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 97):
I for one, have had it with New York City. I'm outta here.

Fair enough. Life in the city is not for everybody.

-Mir

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos