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kaitak744
Topic Author
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Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:32 am

Today, I saw 3 747s land on runway 24R at LAX, all consecutively (and within roughly 2 minutes of each other).
Cargolux 747-400F
British Airways 747-400
KLM 747-400

However, all 3 747s approached LAX as if they were coming in from Asia. They flew over Santa Monica, turned near Downtown, and made a short final. I have flown into LAX twice from Europe on a BA 747, and both times I have been on a straight-in approach, with basically no turns. Why did these 3 planes come in from the opposite direction?

Also, right before the Carglux 747, a Virgin Atlantic A340-600 came in on 24R, and it did not go on the Asia approach. By the looks of it, I believe it came straight in, with no turns.


P.S. And yes, 4 heavies landing within 10 minutes on the same runway at LAX... what a sight.
 
ytib
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:44 am

Looks like winds were keeping them to the north of the normal path, as some of the routes were over Great Falls, Boise and Reno. Remember Reno is actually west of Los Angeles so using the SADDE arrival makes ideal sense where you come down the Central Valley, cross the coast and then over the Santa Monica VOR. The Virgin flight either battled the winds, or flew south of the jet stream.
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platinumfoota
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:39 am

Lots of weather going on in the US im sure they tryed to avoid it and kept North
Never forget United 93
 
AAR90
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:07 am

It doesn't matter where the plane started from, only where is it when approaching the SoCal area. If arriving from North with LAX landing toward the west, they can expect to fly eastward over Santa Monica with a right turn to final --normally 24R landing. If approaching from East, they can expect "straight-in" (none are straight, but almost so) over the Inland Empire to either 24R or (primarily) 25L. If arriving from South, the approach is normally a vector to an opening in the arrivals from the East with landing on 25L. If arriving from West, a vector to the North or South traffic pattern is the norm depending upon which has the least amount of traffic.
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platinumfoota
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:33 am

I belive they went 6/7 this pass Thursday during that storm

[Edited 2007-12-09 19:34:27]
Never forget United 93
 
chrisjake
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:43 pm

I dont live in LA, but my sister does and I visit often. She's only a couple of miles from Santa Monica (SMO) and from her backyard i can watch the inbound traffic turn for the 070 radial from SMO. I've always seen the European carriers coming in from this direction....at least from what i can recall.

here's a photo i took just this past Sept showing just that:

http://www.opshots.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-5894



chris
 
kaitak744
Topic Author
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:46 am



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):
If arriving from North with LAX landing toward the west, they can expect to fly eastward over Santa Monica with a right turn to final --normally 24R landing. If approaching from East, they can expect "straight-in" (none are straight, but almost so) over the Inland Empire to either 24R or (primarily) 25L.

I see, and according to the Great Circle Mapper, LHR-LAX is coming more from the North than the East.
However, it is very odd that 2 flights 5 minutes apart from each other (BA 744 LHR-LAX, and VS A346 LHR-LAX) on the same route act as if they came from two different places.
 
baw716
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:38 am

Depending upon the route the flights are taking from Europe (e.g. via Spokane or via Montana), some will use the STAR coming from the east, others will use the SADDE arrival, which takes them over Ventura, then a left turn over Santa Monica for a right base for the 24s or 25s. I've done both, it really depends on traffic flow and winds.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
AAR90
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:16 pm



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 6):
However, it is very odd that 2 flights 5 minutes apart from each other (BA 744 LHR-LAX, and VS A346 LHR-LAX) on the same route act as if they came from two different places.

Not odd at all, because...

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 7):
it really depends on traffic flow and winds.

Winds --or at least the winds being used by different dispatchers-- might find different flights using different enroute routings. Different cruise altitudes due to different acft weight/performance = different enroute winds so... different routings. Local LAX wind will NOT cause a change in arrival routing; however, two planes arriving from the exact same arrival point MIGHT receive different STAR routing simply to BALANCE the number of planes on the different STARs and/or runways. That happens hundreds of times every day at virtually every major airport.
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LHR777
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:28 pm



Quoting Ytib (Reply 1):
Remember Reno is actually west of Los Angeles

Really? I'm going with more like North-North-West. It's very North, but only a little bit West!

You had me really geographically confused for a moment there!  Big grin
 
PSA727
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:59 pm

This always used to confuse me when i would plane spot at LAX as a kid.
i would see a widebdy aircraft coming from what looked like the western
San Fernando Valley area, thinking it was a flight from Asia and trying to
determine which carrier it was. Then it would actually be a BA or LH
aircraft instead. The PA 747s could have been either one.  Smile
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:50 am

I flew into LAX on NZ 2 from AKL this past Saturday. From the north edge of Catalina Island we jogged around considerably heading generally east then north out to sea along the coast line then east again before turning west onto final approach. I couldn't tell at what point we made the 180 turn onto the final approach, probably about 10 miles out I would say.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:56 am



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 8):
Winds --or at least the winds being used by different dispatchers-- might find different flights using different enroute routings. Different cruise altitudes due to different acft weight/performance = different enroute winds so... different routings.

This is likely the answer. The three 747s arrived from the north, but the A346 was vectored from the east. The A346 has a slower cruise speed than the 747 by 0.025 Mach, and they also have different climb to cruise performance, so may have ended up on different routes to the USA.
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upperdeckfan
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RE: Question On LAX Approaches From Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:49 pm

I flew LAX-LHR on BA last month and we passed way west of Reno, NE and over Santa Barbara,CA before heading back east to land on 24R
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