albird87
Topic Author
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American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:41 am

hey folks
My father has recently been in Bahamas for buisness and he was to travel from GCM to MIA and then onto FPO.
His flight from MIA to FPO was operated by American Eagle (Actually exectutive air but under the American Eagle name) and he said to me that they were looking for ten passengers to come off the flight and be put on the later one in the evening due to the aircraft being overweight!!! He told me that they only got 3 people willing to give up their seats and get compensation and they then took off.

My questions really are:
MIA-FPO is a very short flight..... is the ATR 72 really that bad in weight restrictions?? They only carry 68 people and they were looking for ten to come off!! is the ATR that bad an aircraft that it cannot carry cargo and all the passengers??

also:
MIA- FPO is a very short flight with both airfields having at least 10000 feet runways, so i cannot take this restriction down to the aircaft needing to take off and land from short fields.

Has anybody else experienced this then on other MQ flights out of MIA?? it just seemed very odd for this route!!
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:06 am

Could have been a lot of contributing factors. Actually, from what I saw while working with ASA, the ATR's handled the weight much better than the RJ's. We would stuff that bad boy back and front with bags and still fill every seat. Long or short flight doesn't matter, could have been an issue of winds and weather, how much fuel was needed for the flight taking into consideration alternates and circling, there is a laundry list of reasons. Not at all odd.
What gets measured gets done.
 
juanchie
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RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:40 am

The ATR is excellent at carrying cargo. Some factors could have contributed to the need to take ten passengers off. 1) Sometimes cargo is more important (read: more revenue) than pax, especially in the Caribbean. 2) Alternate fuel can reduce the amount of total weight the atr could take 3) On very short flights, the atr is actually weight limited because it will not burn off enough fuel to be below max landing weight.

10 passengers (1850 lbs) is quite a lot of weight to remove, so I would imagine its a mixture of the three.
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DeltaAVL
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RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:05 am



Quoting Juanchie (Reply 2):
3) On very short flights, the atr is actually weight limited because it will not burn off enough fuel to be below max landing weight.

Then would it not make sense to simply load it with less fuel?
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
 
doug_or
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:11 am



Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 3):
Then would it not make sense to simply load it with less fuel?

depends on the weather that day. Alternate fuel may have been needed.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Goldenshield
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RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:41 am



Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 3):
Then would it not make sense to simply load it with less fuel?

And risk a FAR violation? I think not. I'm assuming Executive is using domestic rules down there.

BURN + 45 MINUTES RESERVE + ALTERNATE (if needed) + HOLDING (if deemed necessary) = Mimimum Takeoff Fuel

The first 2 are mandatory, the alternate is dependant upon distance from destination, and hold fuel if the dispatcher deems it necessary for a variety of reasons.

On top of that, there will usually be some pad fuel in there as well to cover things not seen at the time of dispatch. Then, all of this comes together to become the flight's release fuel. Operations, the PIC, FO, and fueler, cannot go below this fuel load without consent of the dispatcher.
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ERJ170
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RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:53 am

Was recently flying out of EYW on Executive in early Nov.. on the day I was flying, all flights on Executive were weight restricted and it was getting worst throughout the day. As the temperature increased, the flights were getting more and more weight restricted. The gate crew stated that they could accommodate passengers the following day, but the flight crew said all flights were booked and it woudl probably take those people 2 or 3 days to get back to their destination. So it's not unheard of...
Aiming High and going far..
 
albird87
Topic Author
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RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:59 am



Quoting Juanchie (Reply 2):
On very short flights, the atr is actually weight limited because it will not burn off enough fuel to be below max landing weight.

Ah now that could make sense! I would guess that the aircraft was jammed pack with cargo but im sure my father also said that the aircraft wasnt full anyway even before they needed ten people to come off.

BUT.
As i said before they wanted ten people to come off and only got 3!! soo they aircraft must of left overwieght otherwise why would they say they need ten but when 3 took the offer they then went!!
I still find it very odd for just a flight of 100nm to be that overweight!!
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:56 pm



Quoting Albird87 (Reply 7):
As i said before they wanted ten people to come off and only got 3!! soo they aircraft must of left overwieght otherwise why would they say they need ten but when 3 took the offer they then went!!
I still find it very odd for just a flight of 100nm to be that overweight!!

Miss-calculation, etc. They could have done are hard count where they actaully find out who are children, who are adults, etc. Trust me, they didn't go out over-weight. If they asked for 10, but only got 3, it's a possibility that they actually only needed 3 after all, or they took of some bags, which is usually not the policy of any airline. I've always known the rule to be bags before people. Once again, because it is such a short flight and they need the extra fuel for whatever reason and the thing is already heavy, the fel burn wouldn't be enough so they have to get the weight elsewhere.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5019
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 7):
I still find it very odd for just a flight of 100nm to be that overweight!!

It's called a Maximum Takeoff or Landing Weight restriction.

Max Flight Plan TOW = Lesser of (MLDW + BURN) or (Max Runway TOW)
MFPTOW - RELEASE FUEL = MZFW
MZFW - BOW = Payload

- OR -

They had a weight and balance issue, and had to remove people in order to stay within the envelope. (Sometimes moving them isn't enough.)

[Edited 2007-12-12 06:03:46]
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kevin82277
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Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 5:45 am

RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:10 pm

It is possible that they were needing 10 pax and when they got the final bag count, they realized that they were only needing 3 people. They could have worked with the dispatcher to lower the fuel. If there was an altnernate they may have changed it to a closer one reducing the amount of fuel needed. There are 100's of varibles that could have changed.
 
Goldenshield
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Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:19 pm



Quoting Kevin82277 (Reply 10):
They could have worked with the dispatcher to lower the fuel. If there was an altnernate they may have changed it to a closer one reducing the amount of fuel needed.

That's assuming that the fuel was never loaded prior to passenger boarding, which is almost never the case.
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Pope
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RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:52 pm

I was once flying from ATL to GNV on the ASA ATR flights. They had two sets of FA's one set in training and one set acting as supervisors.

I know this because they announced this during boarding.

After loading the aircraft late one summer afternoon (5:30ish) the interior was a sauna. One of the trainee FA's comes on and announces that the aircraft is overweight and several bags will be left behind (why she announced that is completely beyond me). A near riot broke out in the cabin as everyone instantly had some "crucial life sustaining medicine in their checked luggage."

The captain told people that if their bags fit inside the aircraft (the ATR has small overheads) then the weight isn't separately counted in the W&B calculation. So if you saw your suitcase on the tarmac you could try to bring it in. Not enough fit in the cabin to make a difference and bags were going to be left behind.

The passengers start to go nuts and someone yells out, leave one set of FA's behind. Then others started chanting it. It was an absolute zoo.

The lead FA came on and said that this wasn't an option. Still no calming the natives. The captain came on and tried to explain the situation. Still nothing. Finally one set of FA's got off and no bags were left behind.

It was by far the funniest experience I've ever had on a flight.

Talk about a complete clusterf*ck by the FA's. If they left the bags and took off, it would have been a moot point.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Goldenshield
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Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: American Eagle And ATR 72s With Weight Restriction

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:29 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 12):

Talk about a complete clusterf*ck by the FA's. If they left the bags and took off, it would have been a moot point

Sounds to me like they were in training. If they, as a whole, get this often, a lot of them would never get past IOE.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.

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