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yvr1968
Topic Author
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:27 am

Martinair To Canada 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:06 pm

Looks like the schedules for Summer 2008 have been loaded.

YVR increasing to 3/week
YYZ increasing to 4/week

YEG and YYC dropped?

If this is the case, another slap in the face for YEG!

YYC at least is getting LH daily and new MX service, but YEG international services are taking another hit.

[Edited 2007-12-12 13:06:37]
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26505
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:28 pm

Yes, Edmonton and Calgary are dropped.

Martinair is reducing their long-haul network in order to focus on offering more frequencies to the more important markets.

They are dropping Calgary, Edmonton, Montego Bay, Orlando, and Tobago.

Vancouver and Toronto are increasing, so they will offer a daily flight to Canada.

Miami is increasing to 8x weekly, with two daily flights on Friday, taking the capacity lost from Orlando.

They will also continue scheduled service as is to AUA, CUR, HAV, and PBM. Service to SJO will continue to be daily, but given the ending of the Orlando route, all flights will be routed via Miami (currently it is 3x MCO/4x MIA).
a.
 
scrumpy492003
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:01 pm

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:35 am

Martinair to YYC was only once a week with a 767 anyway,
BUT
The Dutch population of YYC swore by them. Wouldn't dream of using anybody else!!

peter
peter b95 c-ghfu
 
yvr1968
Topic Author
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:27 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:26 pm



Quoting Scrumpy492003 (Reply 2):
Martinair to YYC was only once a week with a 767 anyway,

Actually Martinair was twice weekly, once nonstop (triangle through YEG) and once 1-stop (via YEG).

With Condor's loss to YYC as well, the capacity is being picked up with LH's new daily FRA flights.
 
flyb
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:00 pm

Interesting move, MartinAir has been more a tour package to YYC and YEG. They lost the right for schedule traffic (actually never had it), so it looks like in fact Air Canada and Transport Canada may have been part of the reason of the death of the YEG / YYC route. MartinAir wanted to have scheduled, not just charter.

Wouldn't be surprised to see them or KLM reenter the Alberta market later in 2008.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26505
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:14 pm



Quoting Flyb (Reply 4):
Wouldn't be surprised to see them or KLM reenter the Alberta market later in 2008.

Martinair isn't coming back. They are trimming their network to go back into being profitable. They rather serve less destinations at greater frequency, which is what they will start doing this summer.
a.
 
flyb
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:37 pm

Well then maybe KLM.
 
ECONOMICS
Posts: 57
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RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:26 pm

wish they'd fly on from YVR to Australia. There was some talk a while ago of Zoom flying YVR/NAN/BNE using a 763ER thereby avoiding U.S. ports & all their anti-tourist nonscience. (many Australians want to go to Canada but don't want to go via U.S., so long way via Asia or ...)

Australia really need direct or nonstop service to Canada apart from the daily AC nonstop SYD/YVR/SYD starting in a few days. Unless you're from SYD, not a very nice place to chnage terminals at. Many Australians also want to avoid SYD. When 787's finally arrive, surely air travel will increase as long as oil hasn't hit USD$200/barrell, as at present, people especially with kids, don't want milkruns.
 
A388
Posts: 8040
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:34 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
They will also continue scheduled service as is to AUA, CUR, HAV, and PBM.

Incorrect. MP will increase almost their entire scheduled service network starting summer 2008. As you said yourself here, MP will focus on a smaller network with increased frequencies. AUA will go to twice weekly and CUR will go to four weekly flights.

A388
 
76er
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:39 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
Martinair isn't coming back.

In the short term, you are absolutely correct. As for YYC/YEG, the market is there, just the route authority isn't. The Canadians so far will allow MP to fly 'scheduled charter' only, as mentioned before. Once Canada and the EU sign their pending Open Skies agreement, the door will be open for a possible return.

With the switch to high frequency operations choices had to be made, since Martinair only operates 6 767's. MP's new CEO has stated however, that in the medium to longer term he is looking at a fleet of 7 to 10 passenger aircraft. That could make a return to YYC and/or YEG possible. But that is a few years away.
 
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c172akula
Posts: 826
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RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:57 pm

I'm putting my betting money on KLM returning to YYC. Now we just need to actually start expanding our international pier to keep up with all this!
 
jamincan
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:18 pm

Why can't Martinair fly to YYC? I'm pretty sure that YYC is a permitted gateway to Canada from the Netherlands. And if I'm reading the bilateral correctly, the only obstacle to Martinair serving Calgary is being a designated carrier on the route. So, unless the Netherlands is refusing to grant them designated carrier status on that route, they should have complete freedom to fly scheduled service to YYC. Maybe they only have enough traffic when they combine YEG and YYC...
 
A388
Posts: 8040
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:05 pm



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 11):
Why can't Martinair fly to YYC? I'm pretty sure that YYC is a permitted gateway to Canada from the Netherlands. And if I'm reading the bilateral correctly, the only obstacle to Martinair serving Calgary is being a designated carrier on the route. So, unless the Netherlands is refusing to grant them designated carrier status on that route, they should have complete freedom to fly scheduled service to YYC. Maybe they only have enough traffic when they combine YEG and YYC...

I'll say it again. The fact of MP stopping these flights has to do with their change in strategy, being more frequencies with fewer destinations. It has nothing to do with being a designated carrier or not. Just a change in strategy.

A388
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:16 pm



Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
I'll say it again. The fact of MP stopping these flights has to do with their change in strategy, being more frequencies with fewer destinations. It has nothing to do with being a designated carrier or not. Just a change in strategy.

Those seasonal longhaul routes with 1 or 2 flights a week are also costly to operate, especially for leisure carriers like MP with no high yield business traffic. For example, crews have to spend several days in hotels between flights which is expensive and an inefficient use of resources.
 
JAGflyer
Posts: 3578
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:31 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:41 am

MP does well on the seasonal YYZ-AMS-YYZ flights due to tourist pax. With a daily flight, YYZ now has 3 flights to AMS (2 KLM (mostly cnx pax) and 1 MP)
If you flew today, thank a Flight Dispatcher!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26505
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:44 am



Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 14):
With a daily flight, YYZ now has 3 flights to

It isn't daily. MP will have a daily flight to Canada, operating to Vancouver 3x weekly and Toronto 4x weekly.
a.
 
jamincan
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:04 am



Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
I'll say it again. The fact of MP stopping these flights has to do with their change in strategy, being more frequencies with fewer destinations. It has nothing to do with being a designated carrier or not. Just a change in strategy.

A388

I understand that, but some people here seem to be suggesting that Martinair is pulling out because they couldn't offer scheduled service to YYC, and that maybe KLM will be giving it a go instead. I don't understand that line of thinking.
 
Boeing744
Posts: 1765
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:27 pm

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:37 am

What aircraft does Martinair use to Vancouver? I believe they used to use their 747-200s (or was it 300)?
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:35 am



Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 17):
What aircraft does Martinair use to Vancouver?

Boeing 767-300.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
yvr1968
Topic Author
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:27 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:38 pm



Quoting C172Akula (Reply 10):
Now we just need to actually start expanding our international pier to keep up with all this!

To keep up with what? An additional daily flight to FRA and 4 x a week to MEX?

In addition, British Airways increasing 1 x week (to daily), Thomas Cook increasing 1 x a week (to 4 x weekly), Flyglobespan up 2 x a week (to 5 x weekly) and Zoom up 2 x a week (to 6 x weekly).

But don't forget YYC is losing 3 x a week flights on Condor, 2 x week Martinair and 1 x week Belair.

That is a net gain of 11 flights per week. So expand an international concourse for an additional 11 flights per week? Don't really see the need for that.
 
jamincan
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:03 pm



Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 19):
That is a net gain of 11 flights per week. So expand an international concourse for an additional 11 flights per week? Don't really see the need for that.

You're forgetting about the IB flights.  Wink
 
User avatar
c172akula
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:53 pm

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:21 pm



Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 19):
To keep up with what? An additional daily flight to FRA and 4 x a week to MEX?

It's called being proactive and not reactive. YYC is in desperate need of an upgrade of the international/US pier (B/C). If you don't expand you go stale. We build office space in Calgary on spec before ANY of it is leased out, then it gets filled up while under construction. I'm sure we're not the first airport in the history of airports to expand facilities before they are maxed out, hell I don't think most of humanity follows that approach anywhere. Well except Calgary roads!
 
evolv
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:10 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:24 pm

You can't just look at blind numbers such as 11 flights per week increase. The amount of gates at YYC that can handle wide bodys is low. The airlines also want departure times that take advantage of connecting flights in their respective cities. When you factor this in their is not enough space at the airport. Also if you have ever experienced Canada customs at YYC when just the LHR and FRA flights on AC arrive you would realize the customs area needs a lot of work as well.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:32 pm



Quoting Scrumpy492003 (Reply 2):
The Dutch population of YYC swore by them. Wouldn't dream of using anybody else!!

Are you talking about 1st generation Dutch living in Calgary? How many can there be? How many trips to AMS do they make in a year?
 
flyb
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:28 pm

The Dutch population in Alberta is fairly high. Many still have strong connections with family in the Netherlands. I truly see this as an adjusment until open airs happens. Martin Air has been very successful in YYC and YEG
 
flyingfool
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:28 pm

RE: Martinair To Canada 08

Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:23 am



Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 14):
YYZ now has 3 flights to AMS (2 KLM (mostly cnx pax) and 1 MP)

Don't forget Air Transat...

Regards, Flyingfool

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