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c680
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:22 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
The only customers it will have will be with airlines who would otherwise buy used...it won't hurt any western aircraft manufacturer. Nobody who builds an airline with these could afford anything being offered by anybody else.

Sounds like a description of Japanese cars in 1968.
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LTU932
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:30 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 40):
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/arj21/arj215.html

Looks like a blend of ERJ and CRJ flightdeck. I can't believe there are non-Chinese companies even involved in making this blatant ripoff happen.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:38 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 40):
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/arj21/arj215.html

Sure looks like the panel of a Hawker 800 and the pedistal of the CRJ series.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
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WarRI1
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:41 pm



Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 51):


Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
The only customers it will have will be with airlines who would otherwise buy used...it won't hurt any western aircraft manufacturer. Nobody who builds an airline with these could afford anything being offered by anybody else.

Sounds like a description of Japanese cars in 1968

You cannot use a better example than that.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
planemaker
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:09 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 49):
I think that this is such a wonderful idea to have a government owned producer of front line fighter aircraft that are produced to the highest standards for military aircraft, (just kiidding) produce civilian aircraft for us.

Well, not quite yet produce entire aircraft for us... that is still at least 5+ years away. However, we only have western corporate interests to blame. But even without western assistance, it would have been only a matter of time before China would have built "western" standard aircraft. Not to have "helped" would only have delayed the inevitable.

Truly, if one wants to assign blame... one only has to look at Wall Street yanking the Administration... going back decades, of course. This Administration just happens to be the most blatently corporist.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:23 pm



Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 11):
It looks just like a DC9/ MD80/ MD90/ 717. But the nose is different.

Looks like a DC-9/MD80/90 nose with 737 cockpit windows.
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CJAContinental
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:25 pm



Quoting Nucsh (Reply 34):
I'm curious to see what the flight deck will look like.

I'm not sure your imagination will have to stretch that far, just take a guess from any present regional jet flight decks.
Work Hard/Fly Right.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:31 pm



Quoting C680 (Reply 52):

Sounds like a description of Japanese cars in 1968.

It is exactly that. At the moment, they're cheaper in every respect. However, I didn't say the situation would last forever.

In 1968, Japanese cars were cheap crap. Now, Japanese brands are known for quality and American brands aren't. That's the perception, anyway. That's the lesson that western aircraft makers, hopefully, will keep in mind.

For the moment, though, the ARJ will be filling local orders. It's the next couple of models folks should worry about.

Evolution is a beeoch...
What the...?
 
planemaker
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:38 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 59):
It is exactly that.

Sorry, but there is nothing in common with an anology of '68 Japanese cars... nothing!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
F14D4ever
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:38 am



Quoting Nucsh (Reply 30):
CRJ's ... motors

FWIW the CRJ's use the GE CF34-8, which is an unboosted turbofan.

The ARJ-700 & -900 use the GE CF34-10A, which shares turbomachinery with the -10E aboard the Embraer 190 series. That's a boosted turbofan, scaled directly from the CFM56, providing considerably more thrust than the engines on the CRJ. Geneologically it would have made more sense to call the CF34-10 a CFM-something, but since SNECMA are not on board, they stuck with a pure GE designator.

There's no CRJ (CF34-8) DNA in the engines on the ARJ.
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A388
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:30 am



Quoting Nucsh (Reply 30):
So what do you get when you pair a CRJ's wings and motors with a DC-9's body...?

My thoughts exactly. The moment I saw those ARJ21 pictures I saw a DC-9 with CRJ wings! Nothing new at all. Just a Next Generation DC-9 or DC-9NG  Smile

A388
 
eghansen
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:46 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
I do not know where you folks have been living, but it looks like an old design and as far as I am concerned reverse engineering by the other side of the political system is alive and well as far as aircraft goes. I guess in this politcally correct and global economy, we now call it co-operation and partnership.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
I wonder what the folks in the Boeing legal department have to say about the similarity in the design since the Chinese have no respect for copyright laws....



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 23):
It definitely looks like a reverse engineered DC-9 to me. So much for the ARJ21 being an original design... Yeah sure



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 26):
Because it IS reverse engineered MD-90. McDonnell Douglas sent MD-90 production to China where they built the "Trunkliners" for Chinese carriers. They kept the tooling and some of the designs and voila, you have a shrunk down MD-90.



Quoting EI321 (Reply 28):
Its being built on the Chinese licenced MD-90 production line, using the old MD-90 assembly equipment, so the Fuselage is the same. It looks like the Tail assembly is straight off the MD-90 also. The wings are a new russian design. And of course the engines are different to the MD-90.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 37):
So now its been established that this thing is a blatent rip-off (and probably a horribly manufactured one) of the DC-9 series of jets.... even using the same designs, tooling, etc. What I want to know is, is this a legal use of these or illegal? If China is illegally using these plans and tools and designs, I hope that both Boeing and the US government go after them like crazy. You can't just "borrow" another company's design.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 39):
You mean selling their own interpretation of a Douglas airplane really cheap?

First off, Boeing should be getting a portion of the profits from this thing. Secondly, they should be getting a huge lump sum for the illegal use of one of their designs. Third, no doubt the Chinese managed to take this fine airplane and turn it into a complete piece of garbage.... its not going to sell well in developed first world countries.

"In 1992, McDonnell Douglas Corporation announced a $1,000m contract with the Shanghai Aviation Industrial Corporation (SAIC) at Dachang to build the 3 MD-82, 17 MD82T and 20 MD-90-30T under license. The MD-90-30T, known as the TrunkLiner, was designed with dual landing gear with four main wheels for Chinese domestic use, but due to lack of orders, only two were completed when production stopped in 1000 and the last one was delivered to China Northern Airlines."

Quote from the reference book "Airliners Worldwide" by Tom Singfield.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
art
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:54 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 26):
Advice to any company with a sensitive design - Don't send your production to China!

Boeing stopped 717 production. Would that be because the 737NG was inferior and Boeing did not want the 717 to steal custom from it or would that be because the 717 was inferior to the 737NG and could not generate sufficient orders to remain in production?

How sensitive is the design of the 717? If Boeing dumped it because it could not compete with the 737NG, I would argue that it is not THAT sensitive. Who cares that much about someone making a copy of a product you have chosen to discontinue?
 
eghansen
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:55 am



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 10):
the DC-9 is still alive, no way!

beautiful.. but how long has this project being going on for?



Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 11):
It looks just like a DC9/ MD80/ MD90/ 717. But the nose is different.

This is a quote from a press release from McDonnell Douglas dated July 26, 1996:

"McDonnell Douglas has been active in China since 1975, and the Shanghai Aviation Industrial Corp. (SAIC) has supplied parts for Douglas airplanes since 1979. An historic aviation co-production agreement signed in 1985 linked McDonnell Douglas with SAIC and the General Administration of Civil Aviation of China. SAIC produced 35 MD-82 twin jets for use by China Northern and China Eastern airlines.

The MD-90 was selected in 1992 as the China Trunkliner for domestic trunk and regional airline routes. In 1994, an amended co-production agreement for 40 aircraft was signed by McDonnell Douglas and the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp. The agreement called for the production of 20 MD-90s in Shanghai and the direct sale of 20 of the twin jets from Douglas Aircraft in Long Beach.

Currently, MD-90s are being built in China by a manufacturing team that includes factories in Xian, Chengdu and Shenyang for component fabrication and subassembly work, and final assembly by SAIC. Final assembly and delivery of the first Chinese-built MD-90 is planned for 1998."
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
j.mo
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:21 am

Sweet! A Chinese made DC-9 coated with lead paint and sold through Wal-Mart Financial.
 
Skyweasy82
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:23 am

I did not read any theads above, but this aircraft has no chance at all in the US. It's a mess looking aircraft!
 
7cubed
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:03 am

I hope the FAA checks the paint for lead!  sarcastic 
joe
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:42 am



Quoting J.mo (Reply 64):
Sweet! A Chinese made DC-9 coated with lead paint and sold through Wal-Mart Financial.

 Big grin  Wink  Big grin  bigthumbsup 
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
elmothehobo
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:18 am



Quoting Art (Reply 62):
Boeing stopped 717 production. Would that be because the 737NG was inferior and Boeing did not want the 717 to steal custom from it or would that be because the 717 was inferior to the 737NG and could not generate sufficient orders to remain in production?

The 717 was Boeing's "bastard child" so to speak, and happened to be a really unlucky aircraft. The aircraft had no complimentary family models in production. One of the biggest orders for the aircraft was cancelled after 9-11 because of the industry wide downturn. The aircraft gained popularity just as regional jets became big news. It's clear who won that sales battle (hint, it wasn't the 717.)

The 717 wasn't an inferior aircraft, it was an ill-marketed aircraft at the wrong time with a lot of bad luck. Certainly not inferior to the 737-600 or A318 in terms of operating economics.

Quoting Art (Reply 62):
How sensitive is the design of the 717? If Boeing dumped it because it could not compete with the 737NG, I would argue that it is not THAT sensitive. Who cares that much about someone making a copy of a product you have chosen to discontinue?

It's not about the design being top secret or hard to replicate. It's about copyright infringement and maintenance of intellectual property. There is a reason that manufacturers destroy tooling when they end production of an aircraft, and I'm guessing that it has to do with making it so that others can't copy the aircraft down the line.

Assuming that Boeing (and their predecessor McDonnell Douglas) only sold their rights to manufacture the Trunkliners and nothing else, Boeing could have a case at the WTO calling for some kind of payment to be made to them (royalties) per aircraft manufactured. Even if Boeing sold the rights to production, they didn't sell the rights to the designs. Boeing probably won't bring this up in court, because they wouldn't want to upset the decision makers in Beijing.
 
planemaker
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:09 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 68):
Assuming that Boeing (and their predecessor McDonnell Douglas) only sold their rights to manufacture the Trunkliners and nothing else, Boeing could have a case at the WTO calling for some kind of payment to be made to them (royalties) per aircraft manufactured. Even if Boeing sold the rights to production, they didn't sell the rights to the designs. Boeing probably won't bring this up in court, because they wouldn't want to upset the decision makers in Beijing.

Just what case will Boeing have? Really!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
geekydude
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 43):
they have no intentions of becoming the largest cousumer of foreign products, they will produce their own products and ( this is an amzing economic theory) keep the wealth in their banks and in the pockets of their citizens unlike us gullible free traders.

It's amazing how people living in the 21st century still embracing the antiquated 16 and 17th century idea of mercantilism which has long been proven to be shortsighted and wrong.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 69):
Just what case will Boeing have? Really!

Indeed. Most likely there won't be a case. Assuming the aircraft is indeed a total knockoff, how long does the law protect a patent? Forever?

Regarding the price of the aircraft, a little googling shows that the ARJ will most likely sell for between 27 to 30 million US dollars. But still I am not quite convinced about the economics of this aircraft because I have not found any data on the operating cost to make any comparison with other RJs. Anyone has any info on this ?

[Edited 2007-12-16 01:46:49]
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zeke
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:43 am

Saw the cockpit mock up in Honk Kong, looked like a stock standard Boeing autopilot.
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planemaker
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:27 am



Quoting Geekydude (Reply 70):
Indeed. Most likely there won't be a case. Assuming the aircraft is indeed a total knockoff, how long does the law protect a patent? Forever?

I know... I get a real chuckle reading the posters slam the ARJ21 for being old, antiquated, etc., and then complaining that they should pay a royalty for "old" technology!! And the super critical wings, the most important design element, are not a even a knock off... they were designed by Antonov.  Big grin

Quoting Geekydude (Reply 70):
But still I am not quite convinced about the economics of this aircraft because I have not found any data on the operating cost to make any comparison with other RJs. Anyone has any info on this ?

The performance numbers are roughly comprable but not as good as the E-175 and CRJ-900 because it is heavier because it was especially designed for China's western districts which are hot and high (it uses the higher thrust CF34-10). The ARJ21-900 will be significantly lighter per seat.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
MEA-707
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:26 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 8):
They'll sell a ton of them in China...

Don't hold your breath. The big Chinese airlines didn't buy many of the other Chinese designs like the Y-12 and MA-60, and even the Chinese produced MD-80s have not been a huge success, with less then 40 built which are mostly withdrawn already, compared to the 100s of 737s and A-320s flying in China.
I don't expect the bigger and more prestigious Chinese cariers like Air China, Shanghai, China Eastern and China Southern buy any of the ARJ21.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
acjflyer
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:24 pm

I think the aircraft is absolutely gorgeous, which I have thought even about the MD-80 and 90 Series aircraft. I think it is great that they have made some improvements to the aircraft's design. I'm just glad to see that the T-tail is not going away anytime soon and I'm hoping that someone will pick up the ARJ21 in the states so I can catch a glimpse of it pretty soon.
 
Rheinbote
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:27 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 72):
And the super critical wings, the most important design element, are not a even a knock off... they were designed by Antonov.

Okay, that makes it a little less unimpressive.  duck 
 
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WarRI1
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:30 pm

[quote=Geekydude,reply=70]It's amazing how people living in the 21st century still embracing the antiquated 16 and 17th century idea of mercantilism which has long been proven to be shortsighted and wrong[/quote

Well, I guess that free trade with China and other nations has in the last x amount of years revelutionized economics. The new theory, I guess is I trade with you, you trade with me and I end up with all the money and owning everything worth owning as far as trade and property goes while I do everything in my power to ignore international rules of trade to favor myself. I think there maybe a little bit of 16th and 17th century mercantilism there even to this day. Somehow I equate the sending of aircraft manufacturing and jobs along with other industries to China as the beginning of being on the ( I own nothing end of the deal) There is a word (reciprocity) and I certainly do not see it in the way China and other countries, including the US are conducting trade, I cannot blame China alone if the US and their government allow this to continue. I do know that there are strategic values to aircraft manufacture and mettalurgy and for us to send any of this overseas, no matter how simple it may seem is folly, unless someone is a trusted ally and I do mean trusted, aircraft manufacture and the associated skills and technology should stay on the side of the world which wants to survive in this world. Once again, I guess in the world of free trade reverse engineering, such as studying the metallic components of an aircraft engine and the alloys and such in that engine have no strategic value as long as we make a buck.
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lightsaber
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:56 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 72):

The performance numbers are roughly comprable but not as good as the E-175 and CRJ-900 because it is heavier because it was especially designed for China's western districts which are hot and high (it uses the higher thrust CF34-10).

Ahhh... I didn't realize there was a target market where hot/high performance was a design driver. Ok... that gives the ARJ21 a niche.

Quoting FlyMeToTheMoon (Reply 48):
Hopefully it will not be painted with lead paint

chuckle.

Quoting Geekydude (Reply 70):
Regarding the price of the aircraft, a little googling shows that the ARJ will most likely sell for between 27 to 30 million US dollars. But still I am not quite convinced about the economics of this aircraft because I have not found any data on the operating cost to make any comparison with other RJs. Anyone has any info on this ?

The operating costs will really impact its sales performance outside of China. The CF34-10 will be reliable, but the fuel burn won't stand out versus the MRJ/C-series.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 72):
And the super critical wings, the most important design element, are not a even a knock off... they were designed by Antonov.

And an important design innovation. That said, the weight will probably come back to haunt this jet. I just don't see the niche it would grab in the western market. Every airframe should have a nice obvious niche; I'm not seeing enough demand for slightly improved hot/high... I hope to be proven wrong. For a new innovative airframe helps expand the market. I'm not seeing that market expansion with the ARJ21.

Lightsaber
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JoeCanuck
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:11 pm



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 73):
Don't hold your breath.

I just came back from China where there is a lot of talk about opening up a whole bunch of domestic routes. Expect a lot of startup airlines in the very near future and expansion by smaller airlines like Shenzhen, which are flying around, what look like, long in the tooth, old gen 737's.

Not everybody will buy these but I won't be surprised at all to see a lot of these sold domestically. If you're looking for cheap, new and 100ish seats, this will definitely be a real choice in China.
What the...?
 
planemaker
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:25 pm



Quoting Acjflyer (Reply 74):
I'm hoping that someone will pick up the ARJ21 in the states so I can catch a glimpse of it pretty soon.

You won't see the ARJ21-700 in the States. For one, it won't get FAA certification, two, even if it did you wouldn't see it for at least 5 years since domestic demand and low production rate has the line sold out.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
Somehow I equate the sending of aircraft manufacturing and jobs along with other industries to China as the beginning of being on the ( I own nothing end of the deal) There is a word (reciprocity) and I certainly do not see it in the way China and other countries, including the US are conducting trade, I cannot blame China alone if the US and their government allow this to continue.

There are several reasons why American companies send jobs to lower cost countries.... it obviously improves their profitability, on the one hand, while it is a requirement for access to a market with more growth than the American market, on the other. Read Boeing's CMO and you'll understand why.

You might be interested in reading the NYT article:

Report Says That the Rich Are Getting Richer Faster, Much Faster

The increase in incomes of the top 1 percent of Americans from 2003 to 2005 exceeded the total income of the poorest 20 percent of Americans, data in a new report by the Congressional Budget Office shows.

The poorest fifth of households had total income of $383.4 billion in 2005, while just the increase in income for the top 1 percent came to $524.8 billion, a figure 37 percent higher.


It should be obvious that the Administration blantantly serves the elites and only pays lip service to middle America.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
Once again, I guess in the world of free trade reverse engineering, such as studying the metallic components of an aircraft engine and the alloys and such in that engine have no strategic value as long as we make a buck.

The pre-eminence that America had in the sciences and engineering last century is eroding. Read "The World is Flat" and you can weep as it is just a matter of time that we are overtaken by India and China. Just as an example, Bill Gates says that he hosts a dinner every year for the top MS researchers and he comments that he can only pronounce a few of their names, likewise, the Beijing lab is the most productive.

Nevertheless, China will not be a significant factor in airliner production for at least +2 decades.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
geekydude
Posts: 263
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:38 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
I do know that there are strategic values to aircraft manufacture and mettalurgy and for us to send any of this overseas, no matter how simple it may seem is folly, unless someone is a trusted ally and I do mean trusted, aircraft manufacture and the associated skills and technology should stay on the side of the world which wants to survive in this world.

What's strategic evolves over time because people learn over time. You can't stop the inquisitive mind of human beings from pursuing knowledge. And already lots of technologies are common knowledge. Aircraft companies are not stupid; they do not transfer their top secret proprietary know how to their competitors. Rather they send their LOW-END manufacturing work to other trustworthy suppliers to lower cost because they no long deem such low end work as "strategic". Manufacturing the fuselage of an airliner or a Cessna 162 using aluminum is no longer "strategic"knowledge. Any country with relatively sophisticated industrial base should be able to do it if they will.

With universities in China and India turning out hundreds of thousands of well trained scientists and engineers each year, it's only a matter of time before they will start narrowing the gap. A real strategic thinker will therefore consider how to tap into this vast pool of low cost talents for the long term success of his company in the global market instead of practicing isolationism. Some jobs may be protected in the short term by shutting itself from international collaboration, but the company will have to face the possibility being priced out of the market by its competitors in the (near) future. Talk about job security then.

As for your concern about China not being an ally, again I think you're largely imagining groundless fear. I can guarantee you most Chinese have a positive view of the US. In fact there is a recent study by a group of scholars called "Committee 100" on the perception of each other's country by American and Chinese citizens. Their findings conform with my observation: most Chinese have a positive view about America, whereas the percentage of Americans having a negative view on China is substantially higher. So this is basically saying, China considers you as a friend, but you don't. The cold war is over. Let go of your fear, and let us be friends. Britain and France used to fight each other, they are close friends now; France and Germany used to fight each other, they are close friends now; America and Japan used to fight each other, you guys are closed allies now. So why can't US and China get along? History evolves; people's mind needs to keep up with the pace likewise.


Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
I guess is I trade with you, you trade with me and I end up with all the money and owning everything worth owning as far as trade and property goes while I do everything in my power to ignore international rules of trade to favor myself.

Let me say again that trade imbalance in the US is the result of America living beyond its means by spending too much and saving too little; this is the truth because it is a national income accounting identity. If you want to have a balanced trade, start by having a budget surplus and start paying off the gigantic national debt. Blaming someone who sells cheap goods does not make sense. It's like blaming your neighborhood store for getting you into debt and financial trouble because the store is selling cheap goods and willing to lend you credit. You have to be responsible for your own budget. This simple logic applies to nations as well. A responsible government who's interested in the welfare of future generations should not be spendthrift by borrowing at the expense of our children.

So if you want find fault with someone, you should look at the fiscally irresponsible government and (no offense) you yourself in the mirror as an American, and ask yourself "have we as a nation been living beyond our means?" Ever wonder why in the recent years since the adoption of a market economy the Chinese have rapid growth, a slight trade surplus and high level domestic investment? Simple, the Chinese have a long term goal in mind and have been saving up to 45% of its GDP!
FLIB 152 'heavy' low approach...Caution wake turbulance!
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:13 pm



Quoting Geekydude (Reply 80):
So why can't US and China get along? History evolves; people's mind needs to keep up with the pace likewise.

Because we know that China will one day be the largest economy and we don't like to be in second place... Americans only go for winners. During a previous olypmics Nike was running ads along the lines of "silver is for losers" and that sums up the mentality.

Quoting Geekydude (Reply 80):
Blaming someone who sells cheap goods does not make sense.

To be accurate, China is not selling us cheap goods... American corporations are going to China to have their products made in order to sell us cheap goods!!!

Quoting Geekydude (Reply 80):
So if you want find fault with someone, you should look at the fiscally irresponsible government and (no offense) you yourself in the mirror as an American, and ask yourself "have we as a nation been living beyond our means?"

Absolutely our own fault... and not just living beyond our means but, with regards to oil, damaging to our own interests!!!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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WarRI1
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:05 pm



Quoting Geekydude (Reply 80):
So if you want find fault with someone, you should look at the fiscally irresponsible government and (no offense) you yourself in the mirror as an American, and ask yourself "have we as a nation been living beyond our means?" Ever wonder why in the recent years since the adoption of a market economy the Chinese have rapid growth, a slight trade surplus and high level domestic investment? Simple, the Chinese have a long term goal in mind and have been saving up to 45% of its GDP

If you will remember in the (Thread Cessna in China), I said that I myself find fault with the Capitalist system as much as anyone, we are asleep at the swithch, no doubt about it, but I say again we will not dig ourselves out of this hole by sending our jobs overseas and diminishing the ability of the American people to send their children to higher education schools. because of the greed of our industrialists and the complacency of the people who have to struggle harder and harder each year to afford the basics of life, including cheap sneakers made in China or India. The middle class were aircraft,electronic,heavy industry machinery, auto workers and all the associated industries too numerous to mention. Bill Gates and his co-horts are a big part of the problem, they want to send all the jobs overseas and at the same time cry about the shortage of qualified workers, there is a shortage of qualified workers because for years the wages of the middle class have shrunk to a point that the middle class cannot afford to send their children to a prestigious school where the costs are horrific. You show me one workable economic theory where people without wages can afford to buy products(believe me we have tried this, welfare, and look what that has got us) and I will say PIGS WILL FLY) Now as far as friends and allies goes, I do not trust anyone where money and politics are involved, so as far as aircraft manufacturing goes and the associated industries, I say keep them at home and we will then compete on a level playing field where the brain power of our own and your own will determine who comes out on top in this global competition, I do not beleive it benefits us to do otherwise.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:27 pm

[quote=Geekydude,reply=80] Simple, the Chinese have a long term goal in mind and have been saving up to 45% of its GDP![/


Would you care to share China's long term goal, I will pass it on to the powers that be and maybe we can learn something.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:31 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 79):
Report Says That the Rich Are Getting Richer Faster, Much Faster

The increase in incomes of the top 1 percent of Americans from 2003 to 2005 exceeded the total income of the poorest 20 percent of Americans, data in a new report by the Congressional Budget Office shows.

The poorest fifth of households had total income of $383.4 billion in 2005, while just the increase in income for the top 1 percent came to $524.8 billion, a figure 37 percent higher.

It should be obvious that the Administration blantantly serves the elites and only pays lip service to middle America.

I thank you for the information, the figures are burned into my brain and have been and I could not agree with you more about the government.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
7e72004
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:52 am

NW needs to jump onboard...:D
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
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alberchico
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:18 am

Frankly I am a little shocked by all the replies here about copying designs and ripping off the dc-9. Are Europe and U.S. the only 2 countries in the world that make planes ???

Nobody in the 1970's thought that Airbus or Embraer would ever grow up to become major players in world aviation but they did. Now we may be on the verge on having more players getting into the ame. Keep in mind that this is the Chinese first attempt at such a large scale project. If the plane if fuel efficent and is reliable then it should sell well. Keep in mind that this jet is crammed with modern Western technology.....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
geekydude
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:45 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 82):
but I say again we will not dig ourselves out of this hole by sending our jobs overseas and diminishing the ability of the American people to send their children to higher education schools.

Refusing to acknowledge the root problem and putting the blame on other countries cannot help anybody out of the hole either. The reason why some middle class Americans feel marginalized is largely that they failed to realize how fast the world has been transforming in the past 25 years or so, and they did not realize that until its too late. They'd been living a state of euphoria enjoying the America dream without anybody telling them "we've got to get rid of the complacent attitude and work harder, or else." We are talking about a capitalist system that strives for every bit of efficiency there is; feeling you're entitled to an American dream just by by being an American without hard work, and harder work, runs contrary to the very essence of the capitalist system.

I know this may offend many of my American friends on this board, but I have to say this: the US education system (k-12) has a lot to do with the current decline of the American middle class. For a few decades now, American children have been brought up in an education system telling them they are special and they're the best. But claiming you're special and you're the best does not mean you really are. A student really has to deliver the result to prove that he's worthy of the claim. Once they go to college, lots of them simply flunk out either because they do not cherish the opportunity or they are not able to keep up due to their grossly inadequate preparation in high school. Just to cite an example, in th 80's, of all the undergrad students attending UCLA, arguably one of the best public universities in the country, on average 50 per cent of the students did not finish their degree. I did not make this whole thing up; there are yearly surveys conducted on education attainment among high school students in different countries, the US usually ranks among the lowest of developed countries. Also do not forget the effect on the work ethic or the lack thereof of those students when they go out and compete in the real world.

In the US, the number of students majoring engineering, sciences and math have been on a steady decline. As a result, American universities have not been able turn out sufficient quantities of scientists and engineers to cope with the demand for high skilled workers in the new economy. Notice also that the definition of a high skilled worker has been fundamentally changed with the advent of information technology and increased level of global trade. Assembly line workers are no longer considered high skilled. It's those who can perform the innovative and design work that have become the new generation of skilled workers.

If you take a look at the statistics compiled by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, you will immediately realize It's not there are not enough jobs out there. It's just there are not enough American applicants who possess the qualification to grab them. Small wonder high tech firms are seeking to expand overseas given the limited supply of qualified workers domestically.

Therefore, you see what I am getting at here? Because of the mess-up of the K-12 educational system over the past decades, the current situation is that there's a short supply of the newly defined "high skilled" workers and an excess supply of the newly defined "low skilled" workers. Simple Economics will tell us that the resource that's short supply will experience a rise in price and the resource that's oversupplied will experience a price drop. Hence, the US is supposed to experience an increase in wages among the newly defined "high skilled" workers and a drop in wages for the newly defined "low skilled" workers.

Does that ring a bell if you put the increased level of income inequality into perspective? This is no accident; there is no conspiracy to over-exploit the middle class Americans by corporations; it's simply market forces at work!!! Markets determine wages. If you fail to equip yourself with the skills demanded by the new economy, then your insufficient and obsolescent skills will only earn you diminished wages!! Plain and simple.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 83):
You show me one workable economic theory where people without wages can afford to buy products(believe me we have tried this, welfare, and look what that has got us) and I will say PIGS WILL FLY)

I do not have any magic economic theory that can make the poor afford everything. But I do know this, in the short term if you want to high wages, you must bite the bullet and acquire new skills, retrain yourself, just put your feet on the ground and do something productive. In the long run, the situation can be reversed only if at the macro level a complete overhaul of the US education system is implemented. All in all, the poor and the newly disfranchised middle class need to take a serious initiative and dig themselves out of hole through learning new skills and hard work. But please do not adopt an ostrich way out and unfairly accuse others for your mishap simply because other countries like China and India have really worked awfully hard to improve the quality of their workforce and made them competitive while you're sleeping.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 82):
Bill Gates and his co-horts are a big part of the problem, they want to send all the jobs overseas and at the same time cry about the shortage of qualified workers, there is a shortage of qualified workers because for years the wages of the middle class have shrunk to a point that the middle class cannot afford to send their children to a prestigious school where the costs are horrific

Again you're not grasping the root cause. How can Bill Gates hire a college graduate to write computer software who can't even solve a 2-variable 2-equation linear system? There is indeed a shortage of skilled workers here in America. To keep America's competitive edge in innovation and high tech, Bill Gates is doing exactly right thing by taking advantage of the global supply of brain power. The foreign talents are doing America a big favor!! If Bill Gates does not do it, fine, companies in other countries will; and pretty soon you will see America losing its competitiveness in the high tech sector as well.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 82):
say keep them at home and we will then compete on a level playing field where the brain power of our own and your own will determine who comes out on top in this global competition,

And I say you will lose out because other countries, through collaboration and trade, will produce more efficiently and force you out of the game.

OKay, I see I am getting too far away from aviation. I hereby conclude by non-aviation related input in this thread. Hope I have not offended anyone seriously. But that's just my 2 cents.
FLIB 152 'heavy' low approach...Caution wake turbulance!
 
redjeff
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:06 am



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 86):
Keep in mind that this jet is crammed with modern Western technology..

What....Like miles of Stainless Steel control cables?
 
n710ps
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:11 am

The 717 LIVES! Horray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
planemaker
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:22 am



Quoting Redjeff (Reply 88):
What....Like miles of Stainless Steel control cables?

Currently, but the ARJ21-900 will have FBW if the deal with BBD goes ahead as proposed.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
redjeff
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:53 am



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 90):
Currently, but the ARJ21-900 will have FBW if the deal with BBD goes ahead as proposed.

Why reinvent the wheel.....It worked on the DC-9, MD80s,MD90, and 717. I doubt you'll see a FBW on this aircraft.
 
gigneil
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:05 am

I love all the reaches made to make it sound like a copy.

Its a tail-mounted jet. Yes, it looks like a tail-mounted jet. Yes, the flight deck displays aviation related data. It has windows, a nose, and an interior.

NS
 
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WarRI1
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:06 am



Quoting Geekydude (Reply 87):
OKay, I see I am getting too far away from aviation. I hereby conclude by non-aviation related input in this thread. Hope I have not offended anyone seriously. But that's just my 2 cents

Ok, I know we do not mention aviation too much on this thread, but it is all woven together, the designing, the manufacturing and the selling of aircraft with many related industries so I think that education and economics is a valid part of this thread and a little politics also comes into the game, that is life. First of all, I am not offended, I could not agree more with alot of what you say, where I think you miss my point is that the selling away of aircraft jobs, technology and alot of others has alot to do with the almighty International Conglomerates who seem to have lost the national pride that once existed in this country and many others. I do not think that China has lost that and that is what worries me the most, I know that the only thing that matters the most to our companies, is not loyalty to the homeland( I know this is a term you like, not often used here) but to the goal of a company, not national pride, not the well being of their fellow citizens, but to the company(almost reminds me of the 'company store' mentality that was so prevalent way back and still lurks here and elsewhere). I use the aircraft industry as a target because it is such an important part of our economy and our defense industry and believe me, I believe in a strong defense industry. I would wish that the interest that you show in these threads about aircraft and the associated problems that I think we have, would be shared by more in this country and on this forum. The United States Government is complicit in these growing problems and I blame them and the multi-national corporations for laying the groundwork for China and India to be where they are today, again look back to the opening of relations with China by President Nixon and you will see that the associated problems with our economy, jobs, lower wages began after that time, now we have NAFTA and other trade agreements that have cost us millions of jobs. Once the cheap labor mentality set in , it became like a fever and is still getting stronger because of the controlling of the government by big business. I do not blame the Chinese or Indian people for anything, I blame the business minds who think it is fine to send our aircraft and other jobs overseas to enrich themselves.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
planemaker
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:41 am



Quoting Redjeff (Reply 91):
Why reinvent the wheel.....It worked on the DC-9, MD80s,MD90, and 717. I doubt you'll see a FBW on this aircraft.

Because there are many benefits to FBW over cables. Furthermore, FBW/FBL is the way forward and the ARJ21 is but a stepping stone to the ultimate goal... a fully fledged airliner design and manufacturing capability.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 93):
I use the aircraft industry as a target because it is such an important part of our economy

Even though this doc is from 2005... if you want a very good overview of what you are discussing...

http://www.custac.buffalo.edu/docs/OccasionalPaper30.pdf
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
vfw614
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:09 pm

I am not disputing the fact that reverse engineering is coming into play here. However, there are only so many ways to design a narrowbody aircraft.

Obviously almost everybody here is focusing on the nose section because this is the easiest way to spot differences and similarities. The aircraft apparently has a different fuselage, wings, engines, avionics etc.

Is the Caravelle a cheap copy of the Comet - or the Boeing 737-900 just a glorified copy of the Boeing 707 because they share the same cockpit sections?
 
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WarRI1
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:46 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 94):



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 94):
Even though this doc is from 2005... if you want a very good overview of what you are discussing...

I thank you for that information, I will read it thoroughly and it seems like someone else is concerned about the aircraft industry in the US and elsewhere and the transfer of technology to other countries. I hope others will read it, thanks for bringing it forward to help the discussion on this thread.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:10 pm

To me, it LOOKS similar to the DC9/MD80/90/717, this is to be expected, NOT because China was too inept/lazy, etc to design a brand new set of tooling and design for their 100 seater, but rather, they already had know-how and tooling for the MD/717 series, and they have made changes to it.

Boeing had the nose section hanging around to use on the 727 and 737 from the 707/720 and if the cockpit from the 767 would have fitted into the 707 nose I doubt they would have given the 757 its bespoke nose.

The purpose of the ARJ is for a rugged jet to get into small towns, with relatively little ground equipment needed, wind back to the purpose of the DC-9, its the same purpose. NW still uses its DC-9s for this purpose, so they must have done pretty well. If you had components lying around that could be used for your next project then you would use them too. The Chrysler Crossfire is based on last gen Mercedes SLK and the 300C is based on the last gen E-Class. Yet you dont hear the europeans screaming "the yanks have stolen our design"

Brian.
 
dhhornet
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:30 pm



Quoting Acjflyer (Reply 74):
I think the aircraft is absolutely gorgeous, which I have thought even about the MD-80 and 90 Series aircraft. I think it is great that they have made some improvements to the aircraft's design. I'm just glad to see that the T-tail is not going away anytime soon and I'm hoping that someone will pick up the ARJ21 in the states so I can catch a glimpse of it pretty soon

Nice one!

This could be a great aircraft. I see it has good short field abilities. As long as you get the after sales back-up and they are built to a good standard why the hell not?

The MD717DC9etc is dead so why not like an inbred cousin? I wish they were tweeking/copying the Avroliner!

I think a lot of you are basically bigots and think anything that's not built in the US/Europe is worthless. You are also the type who think pax hate props, and would not fly on any aircraft not built in the West?  headache 
 
JIWNCO
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RE: First Picture Of ARJ21 Prototype

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:39 pm

Beautiful bird! Can't wait to see her flying....

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