Flighty
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FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:42 am

Possibly worth your time. Aviation Partners Boeing now have a pretty picture on their web site for the 763ER winglets. See the APB 763ER Winglets page for more info.

763ER Winglets:

Height: 11 ft (3.4M)

Wingspan Increase: +10ft 11in, now equaling 167 ft (50.9M)

Fuel Savings: 5% at 4,000nm, rising to 6% at 6000nm, for GE CF6. Slightly less boost for PW4060.

Increase in range: 320nm (for GE CF6)

Increase in Empty Weight: 2358 lb.

Increase in MZFW: 2358 lb

Modification Time: 5500-7000 hours (!!)

Cost: $1,850,000

I did not see this info posted anywhere yet. Apologies if it was already posted.

IMO, it looks like the 763ER still has a trick or two up its sleeve (or winglet)  Smile
 
jogales
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:51 am

5500 to 7000 man-hours...how does that compare to the 737 and 757 installation times?

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
Aviation Partners Boeing now have a pretty picture on their web site for the 763ER winglets.

Where? All I see are the same pictures of a 737 (but labeled as a 763) that have been up for months.

Josh
-
 
AA737-823
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:28 am



Quoting Jogales (Reply 1):
5500 to 7000 man-hours

That's one man working for nearly a year. Surely this is a typo of some sort...

Quoting Jogales (Reply 1):
All I see are the same pictures of a 737

Ditto.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:51 am



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
That's one man working for nearly a year. Surely this is a typo of some sort...

I'm pretty sure there are crews working on one aircraft. What's the turn time right now for say a 757 mod?
What gets measured gets done.
 
flynavy
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:03 pm



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 3):
What's the turn time right now for say a 757 mod?

The guys down in Lake City, FL doing the ex-AA/TWA 757 winglet installations were cranking them out one per week.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
OHLHD
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:43 pm

That must be strange company. Putting a 737 as a 767 model and daring to use the name Boeing in their adresse???

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
Modification Time: 5500-7000 hours (!!)

No airline would give away one of its aircrafts for 5500-7000 hours. 550 - 700 would make more sense.....  Smile
 
albird87
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:07 pm

Interesting.... It says on that website that the benefits would also include reduce landing and navigation fees....
I thought landing fees were on weight and class of aircraft?? Surely with winglets the aircraft is going to be heavier??
Can anybody explain who winglets will make landing and navigation fees decrease??
 
JRadier
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:20 pm



Quoting OHLHD (Reply 5):
No airline would give away one of its aircrafts for 5500-7000 hours.

manhours....
 
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asuflyer05
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:43 pm



Quoting OHLHD (Reply 5):
No airline would give away one of its aircrafts for 5500-7000 hours. 550 - 700 would make more sense..... Smile

5500 man hours is 137.5 people finishing it in a week while working a 40 hour work week.
 
OHLHD
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:46 pm



Quoting JRadier (Reply 7):
manhours....

I know but you can't have 20men working on one aircraft for two winglets.

Let us assume you have 6 men for 2 winglets and it takes 6000 manhours, if I am not wrong now, that would be approximatly 41days consecutive work by one men each. ( 24 hour shifts)
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:45 pm



Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
Modification Time: 5500-7000 hours (!!)

I think this is the correct number of man hours.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 8):
5500 man hours is 137.5 people finishing it in a week while working a 40 hour work week.

That make sense, a one week down time is reasonable.

The APB web site did say that this is the mature time required for the mod. Remember, there is a lot of wing re-work and modification from the center fuel tank, and mostly from just outboard of the engines neede on the B-767. It has a much differnt wing than the B-757, B-737-300, or B-737NG.

I see AA and DL going for this, as both will keep their B-767-300s/ERs in service for at least another 10 years.

Can this mod be done on B-767-300ERs equipped with RR engines (BA and QF)?
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:00 pm

Seems like it would be an easier job. Unscrew the current wingtips and disconnect, then connect the new wires and bolt on the new ones. There aren't any moving parts on the leading or trailing edges, are there ?

Can anybody give details of some of the mechanical intricacies of the switch ?

Also, isnt it odd that Boeing wouldn't have thought of these winglets during original manufacturing? Its such a small part compared to the rest of the plane. And, sure, I know fuel was cheap in the 1980s, but 5 percent savings on a 767 yearly fuel bill would still have been a large amount of money way back then.
 
speedbird128
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:19 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 11):
Seems like it would be an easier job. Unscrew the current wingtips and disconnect, then connect the new wires and bolt on the new ones.

The pair of winglets weigh quite a lot (2358lbs / pair), I don't think the current wing structure supports the bolt-off bolt-on method...
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:46 pm



Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 12):
The pair of winglets weigh quite a lot (2358lbs / pair), I don't think the current wing structure supports the bolt-off bolt-on method...

Oh, O.K. So they tear down the wing quite a bit and strengthen it. That makes more sense.
 
speedbird128
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:13 pm

Okay 2358lbs is not winglets alone - but after attaching them, the total mass gain is 2358lbs. So perhaps 750 or so each...
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Spacepope
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:48 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 13):
Oh, O.K. So they tear down the wing quite a bit and strengthen it. That makes more sense.

Don't forget the stresses from twisting of the winglet/wingtip and such. The 737NG wingtip was redesigned a few years after production started to allow a bolt-on winglet, however early ones required a bit more work, as do the 757. Looks like every airframe type is different.
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whappeh
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:04 pm

Any chance these will be available for 762?
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:21 pm



Quoting Whappeh (Reply 16):
Any chance these will be available for 762?

I wouldn't think so unless the cargo carriers that have the 762's choose to put them on. The 767-200 fleet is slowly going away...
What gets measured gets done.
 
MGASJO
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:27 pm



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 11):
Seems like it would be an easier job. Unscrew the current wingtips and disconnect, then connect the new wires and bolt on the new ones. There aren't any moving parts on the leading or trailing edges, are there ?

Navigation and strobe lights must be rellocated, wiring for those lights also changed.
C208B
 
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CALTECH
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:16 pm

It may not be just the winglet/wingtip, on early 737-800s we had to add doublers in the wing and wing centerbox, and cut out I believe Rib 27 which the winglet attaches to, put in a beefier Rib 27, add some tungsten weights, and some fatigue fasteners needed replacing. Then Stab Trim switches need to be moved around for the new CG limits, and the stab trim indicators in the cockpit needed modifying. Power supplies for the nav and position lights needed installing. The later 737-800s had a beefier rib 27 and doublers already installed, much less man hours. It is not a bolt on and go affair. The 767-300 is not provisioned for a winglet, more than likely needs lots of beefing up of the wing structure for sure. Our 757-200s needed alot more extra structure for their winglet installations, lots of manhours, compared to the 737-800.
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extspotter
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:16 pm

It mentions PW and GE 767s, but aren't there RR RB211 767s too?
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Someone83
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:36 pm

Doesn't the 762 and 763 have the same wing?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:20 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
I see AA and DL going for this, as both will keep their B-767-300s/ERs in service for at least another 10 years.

DL has 30 on order and options to put them on all the 763ERs..........i also think that AA is leasing 763ER to APB for the testing
 
Flighty
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:00 pm



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 21):
Doesn't the 762 and 763 have the same wing?

Very similar, but the 762 would need to be certified as a separate type, since its performance and flight characteristics are different (for example, check its takeoff performance, the 762 is a rocket). So it would require a real 762ER to be tested.

There are only about 100 762ER in active service, vs about 500 763ER (rough estimates), so the market for winglets on 762ER may not justify the bother, unless they can take shortcuts on testing.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 14):
So perhaps 750 or so each...

Actually it appears the winglets are extremely light -- 325 lbs each or so. Probably made of composite materials?

Then, about 1700 lbs of structural mods and "flutter ballast" are needed to the wings. That is most of the weight gain, according to their web page.
 
Tornado82
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:05 pm



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):

That's one man working for nearly a year. Surely this is a typo of some sort...

Actually a 40 hr work-week, at 52 weeks a year, is 2080 weeks.

Obviously this job takes a crew to do, and probably a couple weeks.
 
meta
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:14 pm

Does anybody have a picture of what a 767-300ER with winglets would look like??
 
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United787
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:25 pm



Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
Modification Time: 5500-7000 hours (!!)



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 8):
5500 man hours is 137.5 people finishing it in a week while working a 40 hour work week.



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
That make sense, a one week down time is reasonable.

137 people working to install two winglets makes sense to you?

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 24):
Actually a 40 hr work-week, at 52 weeks a year, is 2080 weeks.

Obviously this job takes a crew to do, and probably a couple weeks.

You mean 2080 hours, right?

This still doesn't make sense to me.

Lets say it takes two weeks, that would be 69 people working for 80 hours, which seems like too many cooks in the kitchen to me.

If you did it over two weeks, with 3 shifts for 6 days per week you would have 288 hours to work with 19 people. That sounds more reasonable but still a ton of time.

I would love to see a cost analysis of this scenario including the cost of having a 767 out of service, the cost of the winglets (shown in the original post), the fuel savings per year, and how long it would take to get your money back with today's fuel costs.
 
Tornado82
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:27 pm



Quoting United787 (Reply 26):

You mean 2080 hours, right?

Yeah, it was too late to go back and edit post. Sorry about that.  ashamed 
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:00 am



Quoting Meta (Reply 25):
Does anybody have a picture of what a 767-300ER with winglets would look like??

What is the name of that website with a bunch of "artists renditions" of what airliners can/could/would look like? You know, the NW/Delta schemes, etc.

Quoting United787 (Reply 26):
If you did it over two weeks, with 3 shifts for 6 days per week you would have 288 hours to work with 19 people. That sounds more reasonable but still a ton of time.

Yeah, sounds a bit off, I agree. Maybe that was just an error on their part.
What gets measured gets done.
 
wingletsman
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:22 am

YEAH!!!!
That's what I'm talking about!!!
As you can see from my user name, yeah, I'm excited!!!!
My uncle flies the 763ER for DL out of JFK!!
Wingletsman  airplane 
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:56 am

The head-on view on the website is way off- it's a 73NG!

I'm anxious to see what it really looks like....

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
siromega
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:39 am

Meh, let me know when APB put their closed loop winglets on aircraft - I forget their proper name but they supposedly save 10% on fuel by decreasing wake vorticies of the wing tips.
 
brendows
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:55 am



Quoting SirOmega (Reply 31):
Meh, let me know when APB put their closed loop winglets on aircraft - I forget their proper name

Spiroid Winglets  Smile
http://www.aviationpartners.com/spiroids.html
 
LimaNiner
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:08 am



Quoting JRadier (Reply 7):
manhours..

*Union* manhours...
 
SXDFC
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RE: FYI: 763ER Winglet Info Updated

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:44 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Can this mod be done on B-767-300ERs equipped with RR engines (BA and QF)?

If someone can explain why would it be a problem for the RR 763 engines? I can imagine they have the same wing fixtures as a 767-323ER ? just a different engine?

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