User avatar
deltadawg
Topic Author
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:41 pm

Booked yet another ATL-MKE with DL but then a leg from MKE-LAS on FL to see a customer in Vegas the same week. However, I was looking at the FL route map and thinking aout the recent thread about FL starting up some Caribbean routes in the next couple of years and got to wondering why or when FL may increase their West Coast flights out of their BWI hub and BOS mini-hub?

In talking to some it seems that the success of the recent additions/restarts of some LAS flights would convince FL to start more westcoast routes out of somewhere other than ATL. BWI seems the most obvious to me but price of fuel is also a consideration.

Anyway, anyone know what their next move may be domestically? Increase of frequencies/destinations? More out of BWI, MKE, MCI, etc.?
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
travatl
Posts: 1946
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:43 pm

We do operate BWI-SEA-BWI seasonally. But I've wondered the same... why no BWI-SFO, BWI-SAN, etc....
1 Interview. 24 years. 3 Airlines.
 
quickmover
Posts: 2198
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:54 pm

I would expect more MKE flights in light of FL taking 4 gates up there.

Not to get off subject, but I wonder if recent MKE flight additions (LAS, PHX, Florida) has made TPG have second thoughts about the Midwest buyout.?
 
rumorboy
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:06 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:18 pm



Quoting DeltaDAWG (Thread starter):
In talking to some it seems that the success of the recent additions/restarts of some LAS flights would convince FL to start more westcoast routes out of somewhere other than ATL

Although the vegas flights may do well(load factor wise) I doubt those flights are extremely profitable and if they are profitable, it's not very much. Alot those west coast flights in ATL have almost two thirds connecting traffic. Very easy to fill them up BUT when start flying out BWI and BOS you have rely on originating traffic. Since BOS already has a lot of transcon I doubt Airtran would do well. BWI also has the same problem. Most of their traffic is O and D. It would be hard to fill them up profitably without some connecting traffic. Plus you have a lot of transcon with SWA, UAL and LCC.
 
LGAtoIND
Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:32 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:19 pm

If I had to guess, it would be that Southwest offers many cheap options to get to the West Coast (although mostly one stop) from BWI. With fuel prices extremely high, the yields probably would not be high enough to warrant using a 737 for a such a long time to fly BWI-SFO-BWI. Just my 2 cents.
 
peachair
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 4:00 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:41 pm

I think for the same reason WN pulled down some of their transcon service.

I you take a B737-700 and fly it BWI-LAX for example, you are occupying that aircraft for 5 hrs (worst case) in each direction. You can only two legs out of that aircraft in about 10 hours.

Now, - How many legs can you fly BWI-BDL or BWI-MHT or BWI-PVD in the same time period?
Probably three or four

I think it comes right down to aircraft utilization and efficiency. They can get more revenue out of the aircraft by flying the shorter stage lengths.

my  twocents 
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:35 pm



Quoting DeltaDAWG (Thread starter):
got to wondering why or when FL may increase their West Coast flights out of their BWI hub and BOS mini-hub?

BOS mini hub for FL? Didn't know there was one. What cities feed this mini hub?
 
User avatar
mke717spotter
Posts: 2124
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:32 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 2):
Not to get off subject, but I wonder if recent MKE flight additions (LAS, PHX, Florida) has made TPG have second thoughts about the Midwest buyout.?

So your telling me that FL adding a few extra flights out of MKE is going to make TPG start sweating in their shoes about the merger? You've got to be joking.

[Edited 2007-12-16 12:20:53]
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
travatl
Posts: 1946
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:22 pm



Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 7):
So your telling me that FL adding a few extra flights out of MKE is going to make TPG start sweating in their shoes about the merger? You've got to be joking.

OH GOOD!!! Can we please let this thread devolve into the ever pleasurable FL v. YX thread!?!? Awesome, can't wait.....  Yeah sure
1 Interview. 24 years. 3 Airlines.
 
User avatar
mke717spotter
Posts: 2124
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:32 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting Travatl (Reply 8):

In that case, I guess I'll add something relevant to the topic   ...FL currently operates a flight that routes BWI-MKE-LAS-MKE-BWI, so I'm not sure if you'll see a nonstop BWI-LAS. I could see FL doing a similar thing at BOS with something like BOS-MKE/MCI/IND-LAS and then the return leg.

[Edited 2007-12-16 12:41:27]
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
travatl
Posts: 1946
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:57 pm



Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 9):
I could see FL doing a similar thing at BOS with something like BOS-MKE/MCI/IND-LAS and then the return leg.

I concur....
1 Interview. 24 years. 3 Airlines.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25913
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:59 pm

Why does AirTran even bother starting new non-ATL routes in the first place? It seems as if half of them don't last more than six months. AirTran has some of the most screwed up route planning I've ever seen.
a.
 
travatl
Posts: 1946
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:11 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
AirTran has some of the most screwed up route planning I've ever seen.

I also concur. Even those of us who work here often stand around and scratch our heads.
1 Interview. 24 years. 3 Airlines.
 
usairways85
Posts: 4059
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:41 pm



Quoting DeltaDAWG (Thread starter):
wondering why or when FL may increase their West Coast flights out of their BWI hub and BOS mini-hub?

Because i think the competition has it pretty well covered
UA
BOS-LAX
BOS-SFO

US
BOS-PHX
BOS-LAS

B6
BOS-OAK
BOS-SAN
BOS-SJC
BOS-SFO
BOS-LGB
BOS-SEA
BOS-LAS

AS
BOS-PDX
BOS-SEA

AA
BOS-SAN
BOS-LAX
BOS-SFO

DL
BOS-LAX
BOS-LAS
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14155
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 pm



Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 3):
BWI also has the same problem. Most of their traffic is O and D. It would be hard to fill them up profitably without some connecting traffic. Plus you have a lot of transcon with SWA, UAL and LCC.

If you look at the FL route map at BWI, you won't see a single route outside of Florida on which they choose to compete with WN. Unfortunately, that choice severely limits their potential for further growth at BWI.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 2):

Not to get off subject, but I wonder if recent MKE flight additions (LAS, PHX, Florida) has made TPG have second thoughts about the Midwest buyout.?

I doubt it. It seems pretty easy to enjoy a yield premium over FL, and YX should have no trouble. Keep in mind that NW has tried a lot of these routes already with little (no?) effect on YX.

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Thread starter):
More out of BWI, MKE, MCI, etc.?

Well, they've picked up gates recently in MKE and STL. We've seen some growth at MKE, and I suspect there will be more. I have no idea about STL.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
B752OS
Posts: 1215
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:49 pm



Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 13):
Quoting DeltaDAWG (Thread starter):
wondering why or when FL may increase their West Coast flights out of their BWI hub and BOS mini-hub?

Because i think the competition has it pretty well covered
UA
BOS-LAX
BOS-SFO

US
BOS-PHX
BOS-LAS

B6
BOS-OAK
BOS-SAN
BOS-SJC
BOS-SFO
BOS-LGB
BOS-SEA
BOS-LAS

AS
BOS-PDX
BOS-SEA

AA
BOS-SAN
BOS-LAX
BOS-SFO

DL
BOS-LAX
BOS-LAS

I agree. I cannot see FL adding non-stop service out of BOS to the left coast. The only thing I could see them adding would be service down south and p the midwest. BOS-West coast is well covered and does not provide many connections on the boston end.
 
MKENut
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:34 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:24 pm

It would be great if FL can get MKE as a focus city to be a gateway to the West Coast. Flights from the South and East connect through MKE to destinations like LAS, PHX, LAX, SFO, SJC, PDX, SEA and YVR. With their low fares... they should be able to get more people from Northern Illinois to use MKE. If this works, I think there are two more gates in Concourse C that FL can lease.
 
threeifbyair
Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:44 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:27 pm



Quoting Travatl (Reply 1):
We do operate BWI-SEA-BWI seasonally.

I think BWI has the highest O/D of any city that doesn't have regular non-stop service to SEA, IIRC something in the vicinity of 500 daily passengers. However, I don't think loads are the issue, rather the yields to BWI are not as strong. Also, I seem to remember some rather odd flight times for the BWI-SEA flight, which might affect business travelers. I have a good friend with relatives in the BWI area, and he was quite pleased with the non-stop, regardless of the departure times. Hopefully it will continue.

The other flights that also serve at least part of the market are:

AS SEA-DCA 2x daily (fares and loads are usually quite high, lots of government and corporate traffic)
UA SEA-IAD 3x daily (I think...)
US SEA-PHL 2x daily (for those north of BWI)

I think a 1x daily SEA-BWI flight has some potential, but fuel is probably too expensive to make it profitable.
 
lrdc9
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:27 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:13 am

Little OT, did AS serve IAD at any point?
Just say NO to scabs.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14155
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:15 am



Quoting MKENut (Reply 16):
It would be great if FL can get MKE as a focus city to be a gateway to the West Coast. Flights from the South and East connect through MKE to destinations like LAS, PHX, LAX, SFO, SJC, PDX, SEA and YVR.

I don't understand why FL would use MKE for that when they have to contend with YX, which will trash what yields they would have. I'd try STL or CAK long before I'd try MKE.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 16):
With their low fares... they should be able to get more people from Northern Illinois to use MKE.

Didn't NW try that? It's an inconvenient truth, but YX is really the only carrier that has had any success getting folks from Illinois to use MKE, which is because, contrary to popular belief, fares at ORD really aren't all that high.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
deltadawg
Topic Author
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:49 am



Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 13):
Because i think the competition has it pretty well covered

But, eventually wouldn't FL have to take on someone (somewhere - BWI(WN), STL(AA kinda), BOS(all mentioned), MKE(YX, NWA), and so forth) if they want to find somewhere to park future 737's?
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14155
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:55 am



Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 20):

But, eventually wouldn't FL have to take on someone (somewhere - BWI(WN), STL(AA kinda), BOS(all mentioned), MKE(YX, NWA), and so forth) if they want to find somewhere to park future 737's?

Yes... I would argue that that's why their route planning seems so chaotic. They aren't willing to pour the necessary resources in to developing new nonstop routes or competing long-term with incumbent carriers (both of which can require significant short-term losses).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MKENut
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:34 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:52 am



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
don't understand why FL would use MKE for that when they have to contend with YX, which will trash what yields they would have. I'd try STL or CAK long before I'd try MKE.

So are you suggesting AirTran was just blowing smoke when they kept saying that YX is weak and vulnerable? I'm just saying it is time for AirTran to prove that their plan for MKE will work. Even if they have to start out small and work their way up. AirTran spent a lot of time analyzing MKE, now it is time to implement some of those plans. Otherwise I don't believe they are the scrappy airline they claim they are.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14155
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:02 am



Quoting MKENut (Reply 22):

So are you suggesting AirTran was just blowing smoke when they kept saying that YX is weak and vulnerable?

Yes, and I can tell you exactly what FL misunderstood about YX. Any airline is going to see its costs increase. Senior employees cost more, as do aging aircraft. There are three ways carriers can deal with this: capital expenditures (to replace old equipment), revenue growth, or becoming bigger. Almost as a rule, LCCs do the third. YX, on the other hand, does a combination of the first and second. AAI assumed that this was bad, but it doesn't logically follow. That's like me telling you that you are weak and vulnerable because you're a Packers fan (and I'm a Bears fan). It's true that we are different, but that doesn't make me big and strong and you weak and vulnerable.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MKENut
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:34 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:09 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Senior employees cost more, as do aging aircraft. There are three ways carriers can deal with this: capital expenditures (to replace old equipment), revenue growth, or becoming bigger. Almost as a rule, LCCs do the third. YX, on the other hand, does a combination of the first and second. AAI assumed that this was bad, but it doesn't logically follow.

Very true. But I would still like to see if FL is right about how under served MKE is. With comments like "we don't want to destroy Midwest." and "we don't need Midwest to expand." I think they should put their money where their mouth is.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
That's like me telling you that you are weak and vulnerable because you're a Packers fan (and I'm a Bears fan). It's true that we are different, but that doesn't make me big and strong and you weak and vulnerable.

LOL... Good analogy.  Smile
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14155
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:59 pm



Quoting MKENut (Reply 24):
With comments like "we don't want to destroy Midwest." and "we don't need Midwest to expand." I think they should put their money where their mouth is.

Agreed. If they seriously think they can make MKE work, I'd like to see them try it. They're just going to have to realize that YX isn't going anywhere.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
sxf24
Posts: 911
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:03 pm



Quoting Lrdc9 (Reply 18):
Little OT, did AS serve IAD at any point?

Yes, initially after 9/11 when DCA was closed and then with a red eye for several years.
 
acquittal
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:09 am

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:14 pm

I booked FL nonstop FLL - BOS earlier this year only to have it modified three times from both legs being nonstop to an enroute stop @ BWI ( no change of planes ) to finally all flights now change in ATL.

Thankfully, my airfare was refunded in full after I complained that my nonstop routing was now significantly different with a stop/change in ATL both ways...

I understand that routings/schedules change, but three times in four months, nonstop on two legs to change of plane on four legs is a little excessive I think.

Lucky I got my money back I think.......won't book them ( FL ) very far in advance again. Was looking forward to my first flight on a 717 though...
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:25 pm

FL will do just fine in MKE with or without YX.

As for the Transcons, they are better off creating more novel routes than those already overserved by other carriers such as was recently done with LAS.
One Nation Under God
 
threeifbyair
Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:44 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:42 am



Quoting Lrdc9 (Reply 18):
Little OT, did AS serve IAD at any point?



Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 26):
Yes, initially after 9/11 when DCA was closed and then with a red eye for several years

The red-eye was not well-subscribed to - great for FF ticket redemption though. It was one of the last times I got a whole row (and across the aisle) to myself. I've suspected that B6 would potentially add SEA-IAD, but UA really dominates the route and the higher-yielding traffic is heading for DCA.

Still, I think SEA-BWI could succeed given the absence of non-stop service on the route. The key IMO is the federal government traffic. However, the flight would need to be year-round for the GSA to add it to the federal air travel contract, which is something that probably doesn't make economic sense to FL. That plane can be used on a couple of Florida or Vegas turns instead.

WN tried a Saturday-only SEA-BWI flight IIRC a few years ago, but it obviously didn't work out and was ended not long after it started. Once a week is no way to get business or government travelers, and even most tourists (cruise passengers excepted) are going to want more varied options.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25913
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: FL - Why No BWI/BOS-West Coast?

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:45 am



Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 29):

Still, I think SEA-BWI could succeed given the absence of non-stop service on the route.

There is no absence. AirTran flies BWI-SEA.
a.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos