breaker1011
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Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:48 am

Being a fan of the MD90 and flying dozens of them in just the past year from PHX via SLC, was curious as to where the rumor mill is on this supposed purchase - should anyone have insight. There have been postings asserting to the number of birds on the deal table and it sounded like a done deal.

Also curious if anyone noticed that UA and DL both watched their stock TANK today especially towards the late afternoon. Everyone in the index lost, but these two just crashed prior to closing.
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:02 am



Quoting Breaker1011 (Thread starter):
Being a fan of the MD90 and flying dozens of them in just the past year from PHX via SLC, was curious as to where the rumor mill is on this supposed purchase - should anyone have insight. There have been postings asserting to the number of birds on the deal table and it sounded like a done deal.

I don't know who you are listening to, but this rumor is as true as Boeing restarting-up the 757 line.... If you get my meaning.  wave 
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DLOnur
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:04 am

According to my TechOps engineering buddy, DL is still interested and wants the birds. But with the price of gas, I really don't think any deal is going to happen any time soon considering DL is getting rid of planes as opposed to acquiring them (except for the 772LR's and the 737-700's this year).

-o-
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:05 am

I have still been waiting for the same answer. It has been several months since these rumors were stated on the net. Also, I have heard that these MD-90s would come from either one of these two Chinese airlines - China Southern or China Eastern. Initially the rumors were for China Southern, but then some other rumors stated that they will come from China Eastern.

I have also been wondering whether Delta will add IFE to them or not, and whether Delta will keep the existing China Southern/China Eastern seats, or install their own seats.
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DL_Mech
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:05 am

I have heard that the deal for 9 a/c has already been signed..........
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DLOnur
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:07 am



Quoting Dl_mech (Reply 4):
I have heard that the deal for 9 a/c has already been signed..........

This makes sense considering we've had guys over there going through paperwork, compliance, etc. for about a month and a half now.
What you believe is what you see.
 
breaker1011
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:09 am

AirframeAS - guess these are the guys I've been listening to...  eyebrow 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:14 am



Quoting DLOnur (Reply 5):
This makes sense considering we've had guys over there going through paperwork, compliance, etc. for about a month and a half now.

Chances are any deals are on hold, since there is still talk they might choose to further downsize their domestic fleet further. I wouldn't wager anything on it, given how all airline stocks are tanking given the recessionary atmosphere now surfacing in the U.S
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roseflyer
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:17 am



Quoting DLOnur (Reply 2):
considering DL is getting rid of planes as opposed to acquiring them (except for the 772LR's and the 737-700's this year).

DL is adding 757s from AA, so there is precedent in them acquiring used planes to add to their fleet.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
sxf24
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:20 am



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
hances are any deals are on hold, since there is still talk they might choose to further downsize their domestic fleet further. I wouldn't wager anything on it, given how all airline stocks are tanking given the recessionary atmosphere now surfacing in the U.S

I think DL would be happy to acquire more fuel efficient aircraft and retire older aircraft, like CRJs. It would also free up 738s and 757s for new Central American and Caribbean routes.

As to the price of the stock, it has little impact on DL's ability to acquire new aircraft.
 
breaker1011
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:20 am

RoseFlyer - you bring up another yet to be factual rumor that I thought about as I posted - anyone around here know what is the total number of 757's DL will be taking off AA's hands? I've lost count as everyone speculated all the way up to 19 of them... I believe at the moment only 13 are in play..
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
 
breaker1011
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:22 am



Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 9):
As to the price of the stock, it has little impact on DL's ability to acquire new aircraft.

I didn't infer that it did - sorry - perhaps I should have made a separate post for that event specifically.
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:24 am

they are looking for up to 25 MD-90s to send to SLC and the 738s they replace will go to LAX(hints the new 738 DALPA base opening up) they are doing a CR2 trade (plus some money)

(note i have also heard that some 90s might go to LAX if they can get the 25 or so that there looking for)
(note 2 the only fleets that are being reduced is the CR1s and CR2s)
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:41 am

What a difference a few years makes. Not long ago, DL was looking to dump the MD-90's but could not find a good sale, before falling on hard times financially. For passengers, the idea of DL acquiring MD-90's and phasing out CR1's and 2's is like killing two birds with one stone. Replacing sardine cans with the quietest airliner would be great. I hope it happens.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 12):
they are looking for up to 25 MD-90s to send to SLC

Perhaps they are looking to acquire both the China Southern and China Eastern fleets.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:39 am

I've heard the China Eastern birds are a done deal. The 9 ships will be added to the existing 16...all based from SLC. The MD-90s are among the quietest airplanes around, hence one of the main reasons DL wanting a few more...for some of the more noise-sensitive airports on their route system, while adding capacity.
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:46 am



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 6):
AirframeAS - guess these are the guys I've been listening to...

Oh wait a second, we are not talking about the new ARJ thing-a-roo that the chinese are building..... or are we?? Ughh, I am stupid today. Crap! My bad totally!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 1):
I don't know who you are listening to, but this rumor is as true as Boeing restarting-up the 757 line.... If you get my meaning.

Incorrect. This is not a "rumor." Delta has already performed engineering inspections on these aircraft. The nine aircraft will ALL be ex-China Southern airframes (mid-2008 in-service date).

Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 10):
RoseFlyer - you bring up another yet to be factual rumor that I thought about as I posted - anyone around here know what is the total number of 757's DL will be taking off AA's hands? I've lost count as everyone speculated all the way up to 19 of them... I believe at the moment only 13 are in play..

We aren't taking any airplanes "off AA's hands." They did not renew the leases on ex-TWA 757s. The number is 15 - mostly from ILFC and Pegasus.

[Edited 2007-12-17 22:11:22]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
AA737-823
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:58 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 16):
We aren't taking any airplanes "off AA's hands."

Wow, talk about arguing for the sake of arguing, or arguing semantics, or arguing with a fence post...

Anyhow, I flew on the MD-90for the first time in November. Loved that ride, and I hope, from a passenger perspective, that Delta is able to acquire more. Especially if it means phasing out regional jets, which seem to be an increasingly poor aircraft as fuel costs rise.
 
Flighty
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:06 am

Rode on one of these Chinese MD-90s about 8 years ago and it was brand new, wrappers still on the fittings. A nice, silent jet. Since China performs a lot of MX, we can assume these M90s are still in good shape.

We can also assume that Delta is able to extract more value out of an M90 fleet than anybody else, worldwide. While the type has its bothers, since Delta already as such a fleet, the costs from adding more (or other costs, like Tech Ops burdens) are very close to nil.

M90s are worthless to most airlines. But to Delta, they are almost as good as a 738. Opportunity.
 
CPH757
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:37 am

I suppose we are not talking about the Chinese build trunkliners, right? Does anyone know who are in possession of those?

I flew a China Eastern non-trunkliner MD90 i July. Terribly worn out aircraft, even compared to the classic 737's and MD82's of China Southern...I'm sure it will be refitted with new interior for Delta!
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
da man
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:27 am



Quoting CPH757 (Reply 19):
I suppose we are not talking about the Chinese build trunkliners, right?

For Chinese MD-80s that would be an excellent assumption, but the MD-90 is a different story. There were only two IIRC Chinese-built MD-90Ts, so the majority of MD-90s in China were (if I am correct in remembering) built in LGB.
War Eagle!
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:53 am

How much will it cost Delta to refit an aircraft with new interior?
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:06 am



Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 21):
How much will it cost Delta to refit an aircraft with new interior?

It depends on who, what, where, when, and why. Please be more specific.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 18):

M90s are worthless to most airlines. But to Delta, they are almost as good as a 738. Opportunity.

In terms of operating costs, they're better than a 738 - at least for Delta. A used MD-90 is approx. $300,000 cheaper to operate per year over a brand-new 738. There are even talks to secure as many as 20 used MD-90s.

My statement earlier about 15 ex-AA/TW ETOPS 757s has since been superseded. I can now confirm that two more will be taken up. Whatever operator was slated to get the other two backed out of the deal bringing the total ex-AA/TW 757 count to 17.

[Edited 2007-12-18 03:25:24]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
nitrohelper
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:39 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 23):
There are even talks to secure as many as 20 used MD-90s.

I guess we will have a new topic for the future, "when will Delta retire their old MD-90's". Maybe this is the start of Delta becoming Northwest?
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:41 pm

HA! Well, maybe in 20 years or so. The MD-90s are major cash cows for DL!
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
MD88Captain
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:56 pm

Don't quote me, but I've read that the 9 MD90's for which DAL has signed a MOU for purchase are 9 MD90's owned but never delievered to China. They would be LB built airframes. They are suppossedly in desert storage and DAL is in the inspection phase. I understand that cargo fire supression sustems will need to be installed. CVG pilots are to be trained on the MD90 along with the SLC crews - detailed in the last crew bidding process.
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:00 pm

The birds are confirmed to be 9 ex-China Southern frames, all originally LGB-built.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
micstatic
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:05 pm



Quoting Nitrohelper (Reply 24):

I guess we will have a new topic for the future, "when will Delta retire their old MD-90's". Maybe this is the start of Delta becoming Northwest?

I think people will ask that about the MD-80's first
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D950
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:11 pm

They can always talk to the Saudi's about their 90's if they indeed decide for more, or talk to JAS about their's. I understand that the MD90 is also eco friendly, as described on Hello's website. I thought the original trunkliners, B2100, and B2103 were with China Northern ??
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flynavy
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:19 pm



Quoting D950 (Reply 29):

As for the SV MD-90s - more than likely not going to happen due to the well-known cockpit issues. That being said, Delta still maintains certified MD-11 trainers (one FTD and three full-flight simulators) that could be used for differences training for MD-90 crews should they acquire these birds as well.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
D950
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:35 pm

[

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 23):
In terms of operating costs, they're better than a 738 - at least for Delta. A used MD-90 is approx. $300,000 cheaper to operate per year over a brand-new 738. There are even talks to secure as many as 20 used MD-90s.

So which rocket scientist cancelled the last hundred or so and switched to Boeing (just kidding), Flynavy, have the "bugs" been totally worked out with the MD90's you have??
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
Viscount724
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:18 pm



Quoting D950 (Reply 29):
I thought the original trunkliners, B2100, and B2103 were with China Northern ??

China Northern merged into China Southern in 2003.

Quoting Da man (Reply 20):
There were only two IIRC Chinese-built MD-90Ts, so the majority of MD-90s in China were (if I am correct in remembering) built in LGB.

These are the only two MD-90s built in China.


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As a sidenote, AA currently operates 5 of the 35 MD-80s built in China. They were previously with TW.
 
nycbjr
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:33 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
As a sidenote, AA currently operates 5 of the 35 MD-80s built in China. They were previously with TW.

wow I had no idea! anyone know how they stack up to the MD built MD80's in their fleet?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:52 pm



Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 33):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
As a sidenote, AA currently operates 5 of the 35 MD-80s built in China. They were previously with TW.

wow I had no idea! anyone know how they stack up to the MD built MD80's in their fleet?

For photos of the 5 Chinese-built MD-80s (all MD-83s) now with AA see Reply 48 in the following thread. Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy? (by KC135TopBoom Dec 12 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:55 pm



Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 13):
For passengers, the idea of DL acquiring MD-90's and phasing out CR1's and 2's is like killing two birds with one stone. Replacing sardine cans with the quietest airliner would be great. I hope it happens.

It's a win-win for both sides. DL gets a way more efficient plane, and the pax get a more comfortable plane. Granted, quite a few routes will see frequency reductions, but do you really need 8 daily flights on SLC-BOI, with 5 of those flights on 50-seat CRJs, one 70-seat CR7 and two 738s? Don't really think so. Not to mention that the MD-90 would also be a welcome CR9 replacement to cities like CLE. Granted, the CR9s are not that bad, but still.

As of September 30th, DL still owned 117 CRJs, and even if they were to trade 75 or so of those in for MD-90s, there'd still be plenty of 50-seaters with other carriers, so no real loss seeing all of them go.
 
Yflyer
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:23 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 30):
As for the SV MD-90s - more than likely not going to happen due to the well-known cockpit issues.

I've seen this mentioned in other MD-90 threads. It wouldn't be feasable to replace the cockpits to make them more like Delta's other MD-90s, I take it?
 
dl757md
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:38 pm



Quoting D950 (Reply 31):
Flynavy, have the "bugs" been totally worked out with the MD90's you have??

I can answer that for you. Emphatically, NO! The same problems with the VFES still exist and have never been ironed out. Yes fixes have been implemented, but while they have had varying success fixing the issues they've been created to address, they usually induce other problems somewhere else in the system. Another area of concern is the APU, specifically the starter and it's associated control electronics. I can't tell you how many 90s we've almost burned to the ground because the start relays stick shut and the starter fries causing a visit by the friendly airport fire fighters. They've changed the design of the start relay many times but the problem persists.

Anywho, I'm not in SLC anymore so I won't have to deal with the looks could kill stares from the passengers when I'm trying to fix their ride home but can't because we don't have the part, Boeing doesn't have the part, the vendor doesn't have the part, another airline doesn't have the part, and there's a 180 lead time to get one made. Don't get me wrong I loved the overtime and the plane is a great ride.....when it's working, but it's obsolete and the parts issues will just get worse as time goes on. Good luck to my friends in SLC keeping these turds flying.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:51 pm

There seem to be some confusion here as to which Chinese airline the MD-90s are coming from. China has 40+ MD-90s on its civil register. The majority of them, 13 held by China Southern & 9 held by China Eastern. My source indicates that DL is picking the 9 China Eastern birds. And soon, from Indonesia's Lion Air, will have 5 more MD-90s up for grabs. These are the former ex-Reno Air/AA birds.
And as for the SV's MD-90 cockpits being standardized to DL's cockpit...yes, it's possible but costly.
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
flyingcat
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:57 pm



Quoting Yflyer (Reply 36):
I've seen this mentioned in other MD-90 threads. It wouldn't be feasable to replace the cockpits to make them more like Delta's other MD-90s, I take it?

What are the differences that make the SV birds not attractive to DL?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:00 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
These are the only two MD-90s built in China.

Wasn't there also a Chinese-built MD-90 that entered service around 1998 and was just recently scrapped for spares?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:12 pm



Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 38):

No. The 9 planes in question are coming from China Southern (the newest Skyteam airline I might add).

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 39):

The SV MD-90s have a cockpit similar to the MD-11. The only way I think DL would get these birds would be if they were leased and the terms of the lease had a provision for a cockpit reconfiguration.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:16 pm



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 39):
What are the differences that make the SV birds not attractive to DL?

the DL 90s are like the 88s(i think?) and the SV have MD-11 cockpits
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:21 pm



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 42):

Correct, DL's MD-90 cockpits are essentially identical to the MD-88s with a few minor differences.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:28 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 40):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
These are the only two MD-90s built in China.

Wasn't there also a Chinese-built MD-90 that entered service around 1998 and was just recently scrapped for spares?

Boeing's website only mentions two MD-90s assembled in China, plus the 35 MD-80s.
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/boechina.html

Relevant excerpt:

MD-80s 35 airplanes assembled in Shanghai from kits (1985-1994).
Two MD-90s assembled in Shanghai (contract 1992, completion 2000).


This Boeing timeline also says the first Chinese-built MD-90 was completed in 1999 and the second in 2000.
http://www.boeingchina.com/en/aboutboeing/chronology.shtml

20 US-built MD-90s were delivered to China Eastern and China Northern between 1997 and 1999.
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:33 pm

The only two scrapped MD-90s I can think of are the two ProAir didn't take up plus the McDonnell Douglas prototype - three total.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
D950
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:47 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 45):
The only two scrapped MD-90s I can think of are the two ProAir didn't take up plus the McDonnell Douglas prototype - three total.

There was one written off by either EVA, or UNI sometime ago. EVA/UNI also have some coming off lease, I think 17917 was spotted in Guam, enroute to the desert.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:57 pm



Quoting D950 (Reply 46):
There was one written off by either EVA, or UNI sometime ago

B-17912, August 24th 1999, fire broke out upon landing in Hualian, Taiwan. Fire fighters were unable to put the fire out in time and the plane was fully destroyed.
 
jetlanta
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:58 pm



Quoting Dl757md (Reply 37):
Anywho, I'm not in SLC anymore so I won't have to deal with the looks could kill stares from the passengers when I'm trying to fix their ride home but can't because we don't have the part, Boeing doesn't have the part, the vendor doesn't have the part, another airline doesn't have the part, and there's a 180 lead time to get one made. Don't get me wrong I loved the overtime and the plane is a great ride.....when it's working, but it's obsolete and the parts issues will just get worse as time goes on. Good luck to my friends in SLC keeping these turds flying.

My understanding is that the thought process here is that a larger fleet can justify a more permanent and serious approach to fixing some of the persistent issues. Going into this, the understanding is that DL is going to dedicate more resources to the MD-90 mtc issues than it was able to financially justify with a 16 aircraft fleet. I have this on excellent authority.
 
gsosbee
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RE: Delta And The China MD-90's

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:28 pm



Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 38):
Indonesia's Lion Air

Additional heavy MX birds.

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Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos