Delta And The China MD-90's

DAL767400ER · Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 49):
Additional heavy MX birds.

Or perhaps just sources for spare parts? Could well happen, I mean, spare parts for the MD-90 are appearantly not that easy to come by, so might as well take some crappy MD-90s and salvage them for everything useful they have.

vfw614 · Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 41):
No. The 9 planes in question are coming from China Southern (the newest Skyteam airline I might add).

Why is it 9 planes only ? China Southern operates 13 MD90s (11 MDC built and 2 SAIC built). What use is a very small fleetof four MD90s for them? While I understand that Delta is not interested in the SAIC aircraft, I would have expected them to take the rest. Any reason for that?

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 45):
The only two scrapped MD-90s I can think of are the two ProAir didn't take up plus the McDonnell Douglas prototype - three total.

Three ex ALM MD90s have been scrapped plus the

worldtraveler · Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 48):
My understanding is that the thought process here is that a larger fleet can justify a more permanent and serious approach to fixing some of the persistent issues. Going into this, the understanding is that DL is going to dedicate more resources to the MD-90 mtc issues than it was able to financially justify with a 16 aircraft fleet. I have this on excellent authority.

well said. Remember now that that the MD90 is powered by essentially the same type of engines as on the A320 so as for as fuel efficiency, it is best in class. The primary issue w/ the MD90 is performance - it is still a substantially inferior a/c to the 737-800 but it is also a whole lot cheaper to acquire.

bucky707 · Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 52):
The primary issue w/ the MD90 is performance - it is still a substantially inferior a/c to the 737-800 but it is also a whole lot cheaper to acquire.

actually, that depends on the range of the flight. On shorter range flights, the MD-90 is not that far behind the 800.

StarGoldLHR · Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:15 am

When the chinese learn to make aircraft...

then Boeing and Airbus should be worried.

At the end of the day, the Chinese are more efficient and cheaper at producing stuff than the west, and once they have a pattern, they just keep turning the handle.

we'll all be owning private jets and buying a new one every year then !!!

breaker1011 · Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 51):
Why is it 9 planes only ? China Southern operates 13 MD90s (11 MDC built and 2 SAIC built). What use is a very small fleetof four MD90s for them? While I understand that Delta is not interested in the SAIC aircraft, I would have expected them to take the rest. Any reason for that?

Good question - you might be surprised at the intensive "shopping" effort an airline puts into acquiring 2nd hand aircraft. The way I understand it, every frame is inspected with intensity and in this case, it could be that any remaining aircraft just didn't pass the white glove test when it comes to maintenance, history, stress/fatigue on the skins, etc. I remember when DL bought a bunch of L-10's at auction from Eastern, despite wanting every ship they could get, they left many Tristars sitting on Eastern's tarmac because according to DL, they were just too worn and tired to be worth the cost of bringing up to standards.

dl757md · Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 48):
Going into this, the understanding is that DL is going to dedicate more resources to the MD-90 mtc issues than it was able to financially justify with a 16 aircraft fleet. I have this on excellent authority.

We'll see. I don't doubt there is intent to dedicate more of Delta's resources to the MD-90. That's hasn't been the problem and I fail to see how it will address the supplier issues which really are the crux of the reliability issues with the airplane. The number of frames the suppliers will be supporting will not change, only the airline name on the sides of some them will. So I have my doubts that the overall support situation for the aircraft will change much.

DL757Md

fanoftristars · Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 37):
Anywho, I'm not in SLC anymore so I won't have to deal with the looks could kill stares from the passengers when I'm trying to fix their ride home but can't because we don't have the part, Boeing doesn't have the part, the vendor doesn't have the part, another airline doesn't have the part, and there's a 180 lead time to get one made. Don't get me wrong I loved the overtime and the plane is a great ride.....when it's working, but it's obsolete and the parts issues will just get worse as time goes on. Good luck to my friends in SLC keeping these turds flying.

I hear you! as PM based out of SLC, I dread more MD-90s coming to SLC. This plane just sucks from a passengers perspective. The pitch is 30-31", overhead bin space is limited, the F cabin is smaller, the seats are also more narrow in the F cabin, and they break down all the time. Are they better than a CRJ-200? Yeah, I guess so. But I wish they were all going to CVG and more 738s were coming to SLC. The 738 is a slightly larger, more efficient plane. It's just as quiet up front, has a better dispatch reliability and better range. I dunno, it guess it's a mixed blessing...

1337Delta764 · Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:07 pm

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 57):
I hear you! as PM based out of SLC, I dread more MD-90s coming to SLC. This plane just sucks from a passengers perspective. The pitch is 30-31", overhead bin space is limited, the F cabin is smaller, the seats are also more narrow in the F cabin, and they break down all the time. Are they better than a CRJ-200? Yeah, I guess so. But I wish they were all going to CVG and more 738s were coming to SLC. The 738 is a slightly larger, more efficient plane. It's just as quiet up front, has a better dispatch reliability and better range. I dunno, it guess it's a mixed blessing...

MD-90s are all based at SLC because it has superior hot and high performance vs. the MD-88. The MD-90 is actually quite efficient on short to medium haul routes. The 737-800 is better suited for longer routes from ATL, CVG, JFK, and LAX. Acquring some additional MD-90s will allow Delta to free some 737-800s on those longer routes. CVG doesn't really need the MD-90, as it sits at a lower altitude than SLC, so the MD-88 is used there instead. I know there were a few MD-90s at DFW until the DFW hub was closed.

I personally prefer the MD-90 over the MD-88, not just because of the IFE, but because it is a quieter, more powerful aircraft. However I would agree that it is inferior to the 737-800. The MD-90 was in fact originally supposed to be Delta's 727 replacement, but with its maintenance issues and lack of range is what made Delta go with the 737-800 instead. While the MD-90's reliability is still lower than standard, mechanical delays are not as frequent as when they were first introduced into the fleet.

dl757md · Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 58):
I know there were a few MD-90s at DFW until the DFW hub was closed.

They were all based in DFW before DFW closed.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 58):
While the MD-90's reliability is still lower than standard, mechanical delays are not as frequent as when they were first introduced into the fleet.

Got any numbers to back that up?

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 57):
he 738 is a slightly larger, more efficient plane. It's just as quiet up front

The MD-90 is extremely quiet up front on the ground and during takeoff and initial climb but when it gets going fast I think it's a good bit louder than most planes up front due to the wind noise. Don't know why it is so but it just seems louder up there to me.

DL757Md

worldtraveler · Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 53):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 52):
The primary issue w/ the MD90 is performance - it is still a substantially inferior a/c to the 737-800 but it is also a whole lot cheaper to acquire.

actually, that depends on the range of the flight. On shorter range flights, the MD-90 is not that far behind the 800.

when taken as a total package, the 738 is a superior package. The MD90 might work fine on some routes but the 738 is clearly more capable. But it is also a lot more expensive which is why DL is not buying 738s but going for used MD90s.

bucky707 · Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 60):
The MD90 might work fine on some routes but the 738 is clearly more capable.

Yes, overall the 738 is much more capable. But on short routes, the difference in operating costs is very small. Factor in the lower acquisition costs and the -90 makes sense on a lot of routes.

I think another factor is Delta is hesitant to buy brand many more new 738s when a new narrowbody from Boeing may be right around the corner.

Flighty · Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 61):
But on short routes, the difference in operating costs is very small. Factor in the lower acquisition costs and the -90 makes sense on a lot of routes.

Also note the changes to existing costs. Their existing M90 fleet is too small to be optimal. It carries a cost premium. If they can get 30 M90 instead of 16, the fleet becomes more optimal, and average costs for M90s improve greatly.

So, adding M90s improves the competitiveness of the M90s Delta already owns. It's a double bonus. Getting more 738s may not have such a silver lining for Delta.

worldtraveler · Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 61):
I think another factor is Delta is hesitant to buy brand many more new 738s when a new narrowbody from Boeing may be right around the corner.

absolutely. which, along with industry finances and potential consolidation, is why AA will not commit to a large 738 order.

TrijetsRMissed · Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 57):
This plane just sucks from a passengers perspective.

From a passengers perspective or a mechanics perspective? I love the MD-90, but I have never experienced a mechanical delay with one, maybe I'm lucky. The general consensus among passengers is positive, and pilots, at least the ones I've talked with. The only complaints I see are from DL mechanics.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 58):
While the MD-90's reliability is still lower than standard, mechanical delays are not as frequent as when they were first introduced into the fleet.

The MD-90 to DL is like the A306R to AA. For some reason these airlines have trouble with their respected fleets, while in Europe in Asia the respected aircraft types operate more smoothly. Go figure.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 59):
The MD-90 is extremely quiet up front on the ground and during takeoff and initial climb but when it gets going fast I think it's a good bit louder than most planes up front due to the wind noise.

I've noticed this effect on all DC-9 related models. Inspite of it, the MD-90 still gets my vote as the quietest airliner.

dl757md · Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 61):

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 64):
The MD-90 to DL is like the A306R to AA. For some reason these airlines have trouble with their respected fleets, while in Europe in Asia the respected aircraft types operate more smoothly.

I'd be very interested in the numbers you have that back up the MD-90 related portion of that claim.

DL757Md

TrijetsRMissed · Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 65):
I'd be very interested in the numbers you have that back up the MD-90 related portion of that claim.

I don't work in Japan Airlines management, so unfortunately I can't provide you a PDF file with all that you may want to know. I have, however, spoken with some employees from the Domestic division who claim the MD-90's dispatch reliability is on par with the other types in the fleet.

No one is denying the MD-90 is quirky, particularly the electrical system. But it appears DL has more problems with them than other airlines. Mechanical issues are not the reason why SV is phasing out their fleet, for instance. I'm sure our friends from Europe can attest to the A300 being a sturdy workhorse, something lacking with AA's fleet.

Do you have any numbers to show us on how much of a headache the MD-90 is for you guys?

B777ER · Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 12):
(hints the new 738 DALPA base opening up)

Hints?? Thats old news. The projected staffing for 73N LAX pilot base shows 20 F/O's for April 2008 and 40 F/O's for June 2008. Source I saw this from said the Capt's will likely be the same. The 737-700's start coming on line in Aug 08 and will be based in ATL and LAX. They are moving -800's earlier in the year out to LAX. With new hires, it will leave excess pilots for the 73N ATL base until the -700's come on line. Pilots have already started bidding the LAX base from at least the November time frame.

dl757md · Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:55 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 66):
Do you have any numbers to show us on how much of a headache the MD-90 is for you guys?

My assertions come from my experience with the airplane and internal Delta numbers on TDR. For instance in SLC the MD-90 makes up about 30% of our mainline flights and yet they account for over half of our mechanical delays. The 738 on the other hand has a similar number of flights but accounts for less than 15% of our mechanical delays. I will reassert an opinion I made earlier in this thread. Delta is not the problem with these 90s. A large part of our delays and I believe most of the difference in TDR between the 90 and our other fleet types is part availability and another thing that I forgot to include earlier is the quality of the HMVs coming out of GDL. We've had many issues including one in SLC recently that was in the hangar for over a week because the flight controls were rigged wrong at HMV (that's similar to a D check in the rest of the world).

DL757Md

fanfan · Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:11 pm

I flew this plane a lot cross country through DFW and must say it was great - far better than the MD80s. Quiet, so quiet, and fast.

bucky707 · Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting B777ER (Reply 67):
The 737-700's start coming on line in Aug 08 and will be based in ATL and LAX. They are moving -800's earlier in the year out to LAX. With new hires, it will leave excess pilots for the 73N ATL base until the -700's come on line.

latest info from out flight ops people is that the -700 will initially be flown out of ATL. LAX and CVG are getting 73N bases. I thought there would be an excess of 73N pilots in ATL, but the last bid actually had so many people bid out that a few positions were awarded in ATL. I think they have the ATL staffing pretty much where they want it for now.

D950 · Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:26 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 30):
That being said, Delta still maintains certified MD-11 trainers (one FTD and three full-flight simulators) that could be used for differences training for MD-90 crews should they acquire these birds as well.

They might want to take a look at that option since Saudi just put 28 MD90's up for sale.

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