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fly2yyz
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Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:40 am

Did a search and did not find anything on the topic. But was surfing the Zoom website (http://www.flyzoom.com) and noticed that Zoom UK is offering flights from LGW to FLL and SAN. Hopefully this is going to be firmed up with some sort of press release. I know there had been rumours going around that Zoom would be flying to FLL already so hope it goes ahead.

LGW-FLL looks to commence 22 May - 30 Oct with twice a week service on Thursdays and Sundays, with Thursday flights stopping in BDA.

Thursday
LGW-BDA 1030-1345
BDA-FLL 1445-1600

FLL-BDA 1730-1915
BDA-LGW 2015-0655

Sunday
LGW-FLL 1000-1415
FLL-LGW 1600-0655


LGW-SAN looks to be commencing 20 Jun - 31 Oct with twice a week service non-stop Fridays and Mondays.

Friday and Monday
LGW-SAN 1130-1450
SAN-LGW 1635-1005
 
Rookinla
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:45 am

It's not the BA that some on this board in SAN would have liked but it is Transatlantic service from SAN...That should make some SAN A.netters happy!
 
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SANFan
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 1):
It's not the BA that some on this board in SAN would have liked but it is Transatlantic service from SAN...That should make some SAN A.netters happy!

Like ME! Wonderful news and a surprise to many I bet; Lauderdale was leaked prematurely a month or so ago but SAN wasn't.

A great big Blue Christmas present for many of us SAN fans here on A.net indeed! I had a feeling that 2008 would be a good year at SAN and this gets things off to a very good start! Sorry it couldn't have started earlier (in the Spring) and I'm willing to believe the frequency will increase pretty quickly. I will also wait for the PR (tomorrow?) to confirm whether or not the service really terminates at the end of October...?

ZOOM, I assume, will be the test-customer of the new CUTE facilities being planned/installed at Lindbergh's T2E. (As well as the first carrier to earn the intercontinental incentives now in place at SAN.)

Very cool plan ZX -- 2 new and unexpected cities on opposite coasts. I've already got June 20, 2008, marked on my calendar; see ya there folks! ZOOM, I welcome you to San Diego!

bb

[Edited 2007-12-18 01:23:40]
 
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SANFan
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:44 am



Quoting Fly2YYZ (Thread starter):
Did a search and did not find anything on the topic. But was surfing the Zoom website (http://www.flyzoom.com) and noticed that Zoom UK is offering flights from LGW to FLL and SAN.

BTW, Fly2YYZ, very good find; thank you so much for the post! (You beat the PR which should be out tomorrow.)

I noticed 2 things after checking out the website: the ZX booking window closes at the end of October so there are no flights at all listed after 10/31. We will have to wait for the PR or for the booking engine extension to see if there are any significant changes for Winter of 2008.

Second, I notice there will still be one JFK-BDA-LGW flight in addition to the new FLL-BDA-LGW schedule so BDA service increases to 2x weekly (right?) Sorry, I don't know what last summer's BDA schedule was but it looks like this winter is just 1 flight per week...

Anyway, I'm thrilled with the news!

bb
 
MAH4546
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:45 am

i don't know about SAN but service to Fort Laudedale will be year round
a.
 
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SANFan
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:26 am

No question that SAN is permanent/year-round as well (and I'm betting it will be flying at least thrice weekly before long.)

If the flight is reliable and the service good, I think ZOOM will thrive in San Diego.

Hey SDCRAA, did you think that new International Air Service Incentive Program you just introduced for SAN would work THIS fast?!  Smile Nice job recruiting new carriers for Lindbergh; is MNL or FRA next?

bb

[Edited 2007-12-18 02:30:51]
 
juventus
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:59 pm

FINALLY.........

SAN is living under the shadow of LAX. They deserve and could support a direct link to Europe. I wish it was a legacy carrier like BA or BMI, but I'm sure San Diego will gladly take Zoom.
 
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lindy field
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:41 pm

Fly2YYZ,

Thanks for the post! This is indeed great news for SAN; I hope that Zoom will be rewarded with much success on this route.

Edward
 
Trvlr
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:13 pm

Hopefully Zoom doesn't trash yields at SAN such that other European carriers are discouraged from entering the market. Of course, the upside is that consistent leisure service might stimulate the market to attract a full-service carrier.

Is Zoom two-class or one-class? How would a 767-200 fare out of SAN, performance-wise?
 
DCAYOW
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:58 pm



Quoting Trvlr (Reply 8):
Hopefully Zoom doesn't trash yields at SAN such that other European carriers are discouraged from entering the market. Of course, the upside is that consistent leisure service might stimulate the market to attract a full-service carrier.

Even if they trash eco yields, they are only doing it on Mondays and Fridays and then again yields would be affected only to LGW - no beyonds. Business / First class yield wouldn't be affected at all because it isn't offered. So a Euronetwork carrier would have more pricing power. Additionally, Zoom won't get any business corporate contracts with a 2x weekly service - a network yield situation (while affected in eco on Mondays and Fridays) would be different.
Retorne ao céu...
 
Trvlr
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:50 pm

Here's the press release off of Zoom's website:

---

Zoom puts San Diego on the map with introduction of direct non-stop low-cost flights
For Immediate Release: December 18, 2007



Zoom Airlines, the leading low-fare transatlantic airline, has announced that it will be operating a new route from London Gatwick to San Diego in Southern California for Summer 2008.

From June next year, Zoom will offer the only direct non-stop air service between Europe and San Diego when flights linking London with the southern Californian city are introduced.

San Diego is one of California’s best kept secrets and home to a unique blend of surfside-chic that makes it the place to be seen in California in 2008. The backdrop for cult movies including Some Like It Hot and Top Gun, San Diego is the latest celebrity hangout and a flurry of exciting high-spec, yet affordable, hotels, bars and restaurants, have recently opened both city centre and ocean-side. Families can enjoy Coronado Beach, one of the top family beaches in the US, meet the pandas at San Diego Zoo or dine with Shamu at SeaWorld while golfers can look forward to the US Open at Torrey Pines in June 2008.

San Diego is the US’ seventh largest city and offers 70 miles of spectacular beaches and a year round Mediterranean climate. Being only two hours drive to Disneyland in Anaheim and only half an hours drive to Mexico, San Diego offers an abundance of options as an impressive holiday destination.

Zoom will be introducing a twice weekly service from London Gatwick with flights departing on Mondays and Fridays. Fares start at £449 return including all taxes and charges.

San Diego is notable as being the largest US city without direct European air service, and there are around 80,000 passengers a year travelling to London via alternative US airports including Atlanta, Dallas and Houston.

Hugh and John Boyle, the owners of Zoom, said that they were delighted to announce the new route which extends Zoom’s position as the leading low-fare airline across the Atlantic.

John Boyle said: “This new route confirms our commitment to offering customers lower airfares across the Atlantic. Direct non-stop flights to San Diego will offer a convenient low-fare service from London which allows customers to avoid the need to change planes en route. It’s all part of the low-fare revolution that we started earlier this year with our launch of flights to New York.”

“San Diego is an extremely popular holiday destinations and we are delighted to be offering low-cost travel allowing the British public to enjoy one of the most outstanding holiday destinations in the world.”

Caroline Beteta, Executive Director California Tourism and Trade Commission says: “We are absolutely delighted that Zoom is putting San Diego on the map with this new route. San Diego is the second largest city in California and for many represents the epitome of the Californian lifestyle with its beaches, great climate and relaxed atmosphere. We hope that people will take advantage of this direct route to experience southern California.”

Zoom operates an ‘easyJet-style’ booking service with flexible one-way fares and the flights offer economy and Premium economy services with designated seating, meals service and ‘plenty of frills’.

New routes to Fort Lauderdale in the Summer and Denver in the Winter are also being introduced to Zoom’s portfolio of flight offerings for 2008.

Zoom has operated full-service, low-cost flights from the UK to Canada for the last three years and was granted permission this year to operate from London Gatwick as an official UK carrier to the United States. Zoom also introduced direct flights from London Gatwick to Bermuda this summer.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:03 pm

This is the kind of carrier which would do well in the UK-MSY market. Hopefully we'll see that happen before too long.
 
lhpdx
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:04 pm

Good Job San Diego! I hope your city will continue to recieve more international service in the future.......
 
rojo
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:19 pm



Quoting SANFan (Reply 2):
Very cool plan ZX -- 2 new and unexpected cities on opposite coasts. I've already got June 20, 2008, marked on my calendar; see ya there folks! ZOOM, I welcome you to San Diego!

I was going to fly with them LGW-BDA-JFK last month, but at the very end got a good deal with AA and I couldn't risk a delay, because I had to be in the US that day... but I will try them out this summer SAN-LGW one way!! I wonder if the majors will change their pricing on the SAN-LON route? specially with Zoom offering cheap one way fares...

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 8):
Is Zoom two-class or one-class? How would a 767-200 fare out of SAN, performance-wise?

Zoom only has B767-300's and B757-200's in its fleet... The B767-300 will be operating the SAN-LGW-SAN route!!

B763's have a 2 class configuration (Premium Economy and Economy) = 269 seats (59Y+ / 210Y)
B752's have a 2 class configuration (Premium Economy and Economy) = 201 seats

Does anyone know the performance of the B767-300 on the SAN-LGW sector with Zooms 263Y and Y+ configuration?? It should go out with some weight restrictions due to the length of the runway!!
 
fly2yyz
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:20 pm



Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
Second, I notice there will still be one JFK-BDA-LGW flight in addition to the new FLL-BDA-LGW schedule so BDA service increases to 2x weekly (right?) Sorry, I don't know what last summer's BDA schedule was but it looks like this winter is just 1 flight per week...

Oops you're soo right! The weekly flight from JFK-BDA-LGW on Thursdays! So Thursdays and Sunday flights from BDA-LGW! I wonder if ZX will receive rights for FLL-BDA.... I don't think it'll be a huge market but I mean they do have JFK-BDA.

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 8):
Is Zoom two-class or one-class? How would a 767-200 fare out of SAN, performance-wise?

Zoom does have two class service: Premium Economy and Economy. Economy has 32 in' seat pitch which is a bit better than say flying some charter airline configs. Their Premium product offers 36 in' seat pitch but isin't like a business class. I flew them thrice on their Canadian side from YVR-LGW and you are offered a choice of meals in Premium and unlimited alcohol...unless they cut you off. They do have a great product for a great price. I believe they are attempting to mimic their Canadian operations by operating services a few times weekly before beefing up services. Give it time and I'm sure you'll see Zoom Canada offering new routes too.

By the way the aircraft is a 767-300, as they just received C-GZNA from Zoom Canada which is now registered as G-CZNA it was delivered to them on the 14th of December so this will help them operate their charter routes from CPH-BKK, HKT, and GOI for now and then once may rolls around JFK, SAN, FLL, BDA, YYC, and YVR!

GOOD LUCK ZOOM UK!
 
fly2yyz
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:28 pm



Quoting Rojo (Reply 13):
Zoom only has B767-300's and B757-200's in its fleet... The B767-300 will be operating the SAN-LGW-SAN route!!

Not to step on anyones toes but Zoom UK and Zoom Canada are two separate companies with Zoom Canada operating the 757-200s, C-GTSN and C-G???, only (2nd one online in February as rumours state) and 3 767-300's, C-GZUM, C-GZMM, and C-GZNC. Zoom UK operates two 767-300s, the latest G-CZNA, and G-UKZM.
 
Humberside
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:39 pm



Quoting Trvlr (Reply 10):
New routes to Fort Lauderdale in the Summer and Denver in the Winter are also being introduced to Zoom’s portfolio of flight offerings for 2008.

So FLL will be summer only, depsite winter being the most popular time for South Florida?
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:40 pm

This is great news, and from this I would assume Zoom is trying to cater for the "Leisure Traveller" with the sort of destinations they are flying to...

Lets just hope that Zoom (UK), will improve the punctuality and reliability of their service this coming year... Zoom did not have the greatest of starts on the LGW-JFK route and was regularly late/delayed by 5-6 hours. If they operate like this, I bet the people of SAN and FLL will soon be wishing they booked on a flight via another US city on a mainline carrier.

They had a bit of a nightmare in the same way FlyGlobeSpan had on their LPL-JFK service!

HOWEVER on a positive note... The service Zoom offers onboard is very good for the price, decent amount of leg room, compariable meals to flights on other carriers to the US and IFE is offered on the overhead projectors/screens.

For people not familar with Zoom, here is some background info....
There premium product should in no way be thought of as business class, and is more like a Premium Economy service.

They are also very strict with baggage which is 20kg for Economy and 30 kg for Premium Class. THIS IS NOT PER BAG, BUT IN TOTAL - with a maximum of two bags. (This might come as a surprise to people in the US, as the rules are far more relaxed with other scheduled carriers on these routes.)

Fares in general are very well priced on Zoom, I was looking today at going to New York in June 2008, and was £299 GBP (inc Tax) and the mainline carriers were coming around £459 (inc Tax). Plus also don't expect to get a spare seat next to you, everytime I fly them they are full to nealy 100%!

Also be aware, Zoom does not offer connecting flights, so passengers from SAN or FLL wishing to fly onwards to Europe, will need to collect their luggage and check-in as normal for any onwards flights they have booked seperately.Any onward flights will be at your own risk, if the Zoom flight gets delayed! But with easyJet having a very large base at LGW, this should allow for some bargain fares for passegngers wishing to fly onwards to Europe or North Africa!

[Edited 2007-12-18 10:51:18]
 
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SANFan
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:43 pm



Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 14):
I wonder if ZX will receive rights for FLL-BDA....

It doesn't look like it as I can't get the booking engine to give me the flights when I request FLL-BDA.

I noticed an interesting and well-played operational strategy (or maybe it's just a coincidence): their w/b flight 17 on Thursdays op's LGW-BDA-FLL and the return (#18) to Gatwick is nonstop. The Sunday op goes LGW-FLL//FLL-BDA-LGW, meaning if there is a delay or wx issue, they don't have to deal with BDA twice in the same day!

There were some discussions on the previously-leaked FLL-service thread about ZOOM and the cruise industry. Someone with more current knowledge on cruises out of both FLL and SAN might want to weigh in here 'cause it seems to me that, given the ZOOM schedules to both cities, there could be some cruise packages in the future!

FLL's cruise industry is well known but SAN is another year-round and very popular cruise port with regular offerings to Mexico, trans-Canal, and Hawaii as well as occasional trans-Pac, South Pacific, and West Coast-US placement trips.

I just wonder if a wide variety of cruise packages for Brits out of 2 great US ports will be a healthy part of their new routes?

bb
 
njdevilsin03
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:23 pm

Zoom to start Fort Lauderdale-London flights in May

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business...1149.story?coll=sofla_tab01_layout

The article quotes this... Other airlines may provide new trans-Atlantic flights in coming weeks in advance of a liberalizaton of flight rules between the U.S. and European Union countries scheduled to take effect in March.

Anyone hear anything besides Zoom?
717, 727, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 762, 763, 777, DC9, MD80, DC10, L1011, ERJ, CRJ, ATR, DH8, A300,
 
juventus
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:45 pm



Quoting Trvlr (Reply 8):
Hopefully Zoom doesn't trash yields at SAN such that other European carriers are discouraged from entering the market

Yes sir. Do I hear a direct link to Paris, Frankfurt or Munich in the not too distant future?? ( some wishfull thinking before Christmas)
 
san747
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:17 pm

Great news for SAN! Looks like the incentive program is working... Now for PR and LH to follow!
Scotty doesn't know...
 
juventus
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:25 pm



Quoting San747 (Reply 21):
Now for PR and LH to follow!

PR? I think San Jose has a much greater chance of landing an Asian carrier than San Diego....
 
san747
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:40 pm



Quoting Juventus (Reply 22):
PR? I think San Jose has a much greater chance of landing an Asian carrier than San Diego....

Well, PR has publicly said it wants to fly to SAN for the last year or so, it just needs the aircraft for the flight. It probably won't happen until the first 777-300ERs come in and free an A340.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
MAH4546
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:45 pm



Quoting SANFan (Reply 18):
It doesn't look like it as I can't get the booking engine to give me the flights when I request FLL-BDA.

They will have traffic rights, they just have to apply for them, which they haven't yet.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 16):

So FLL will be summer only, depsite winter being the most popular time for South Florida?

No, it will be year-round, AFAIK. As you yourself state, winter is peak to FLL.
a.
 
davehammer
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:14 am

Good news all round! I wish Zoom all the best on these routes and always nice to see new Trans-Atlantic routes from LGW.

I flew with Zoom LGW-JFK and back in September, Premium Economy for £297 including tax booked 3 weeks before departure, which I thought was brilliant value. The flight was on time both ways and the food and service particularly on the way out was very good. With a little bit of work I could see them doing very well, as long as people don't go expecting too much. In regular economy you have to pay for everything except food and soft drinks, (headphones, blanket, inflatable pillow cost £5 if I remember rightly). In conclusion, good luck Zoom!
 
eghansen
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:03 am



Quoting SANFan (Reply 18):
FLL's cruise industry is well known but SAN is another year-round and very popular cruise port with regular offerings to Mexico, trans-Canal, and Hawaii as well as occasional trans-Pac, South Pacific, and West Coast-US placement trips.

San Diego has 110 cruise ships originating here between 12/20 and 5/31. Most cruise ships reposition to the Alaska run in the summer and return back to San Diego in October. Carnival is financing an additional cruise ship terminal on the Broadway pier. I think the cruise ship business (and the weak dollar) is also why Air Canada has started daily service to San Diego.

Zoom is probably a better fit for San Diego than Lufthansa or British Airways. British Airways said when they pulled out of San Diego that the load factors in economy were excellent, but the business and first classes were nearly empty. This probably will not bother Zoom.

Another problem with British Airways is that AAdvantage members cannot earn miles on transatlantic flights on BA. This is why I would never use their nonstop. Zoom, of course, has the same problem. This might not be a problem with holiday makers/cruise ship passengers, but business flyers like their upgrades and elite status.

Philippines might start service to San Diego. The currently fly MNL-YVR-LAS and are considering changing this to MNL-YVR-SAN. This routing would negate any problems with using our short runway. In addition, they could carry passengers from SAN to YVR as this counts as a fifth freedom right. However, as PAL CEO Bautista first announced the possibility in July, 2006, there does not appear to be any rush.

I am still skeptical about Lufthansa starting service to San Diego. They serve DEN, SFO, LAX, ORD and IAD and have excellent code-share connections to San Diego on United for all those cities. I can't see what would be gained by flying nonstop to SAN.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
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SANFan
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:08 am



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 17):
Also be aware, Zoom does not offer connecting flights, so passengers from SAN or FLL wishing to fly onwards to Europe, will need to collect their luggage and check-in as normal for any onwards flights they have booked seperately.Any onward flights will be at your own risk.



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 26):
Zoom is probably a better fit for San Diego than Lufthansa or British Airways. British Airways said when they pulled out of San Diego that the load factors in economy were excellent, but the business and first classes were nearly empty. This probably will not bother Zoom.

I think both of these statements point in the same direction regarding SAN's intercontinental air service future: it looks to me like ZOOM will be great for SAN, carrying local economy traffic to London and England (of which there is a healthy amount) while leaving room for one or 2 more legacies to provide both additional local Europe-bound service as well as the many connecting possibilities beyond such hubs as AMS, FRA, PAR. I think this announcement leaves the door wide open for LH, KL/NW, AF, etc., to start flying to Lindbergh as well; things could get very interesting in the next year at SAN!

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 26):
San Diego has 110 cruise ships originating here between 12/20 and 5/31.

Thanks for the figure Eghansen; I was going to look into the numbers when I had a chance. That's over 20 cruises a month during the "off-season" if I did the math right! That has to be something ZX is aware of -- especially when taken into combination with Lauderdale. If I were a big cruise company with thousands of staterooms a week to fill with paying customers, I would be salivating a lot at this announcement: major year-round cruise ports on both coasts, with a huge variety of destinations (even including trans-Canal itineraries starting in San Diego and ending in Ft. Lauderdale and v.v.!) In fact, I hope the SD C of C and the Con Viz Bureau are hard a work already.

As I've said before, I think this announcement should make a wonderful arrangement for the airline and the cities and, in the case of San Diego, just might get things rolling very nicely...  scratchchin 

bb
 
eghansen
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:17 am



Quoting SANFan (Reply 27):
If I were a big cruise company with thousands of staterooms a week to fill with paying customers, I would be salivating a lot at this announcement: major year-round cruise ports on both coasts, with a huge variety of destinations (even including trans-Canal itineraries starting in San Diego and ending in Ft. Lauderdale and v.v.!) In fact, I hope the SD C of C and the Con Viz Bureau are hard a work already.

There always has been major cruise traffic on the west coast, but until recently, it was all from Long Beach/San Pedro. San Diego has lured Holland America and Carnival from LA because their cruise port is in an industrial zone and ours is at downtown's door step with plenty of hotels within walking distance.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
Trvlr
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:55 am



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 26):
I am still skeptical about Lufthansa starting service to San Diego. They serve DEN, SFO, LAX, ORD and IAD and have excellent code-share connections to San Diego on United for all those cities. I can't see what would be gained by flying nonstop to SAN.

The same could be said about PDX a few years ago. And yet, now they have FRA with AMS on the way. While the above logic has a certain degree of truth to it, in the long term it doesn't really hold water. After all, why does Philadelphia have international service--on a number of different airlines--when New York is just up the road? PHL is actually closer to JFK than SAN is to LAX.

Bottom line, one day a full-service carrier will fly to San Diego from the right destination with the right equipment and the right mixture of connections and O&D. And they will make money. It's not a question of if, but when. The evolution of markets like PDX, LAS, and PHX proves that.
 
san747
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:01 am



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 26):
Philippines might start service to San Diego. The currently fly MNL-YVR-LAS and are considering changing this to MNL-YVR-SAN. This routing would negate any problems with using our short runway. In addition, they could carry passengers from SAN to YVR as this counts as a fifth freedom right. However, as PAL CEO Bautista first announced the possibility in July, 2006, there does not appear to be any rush.

I think the thing that's holding SAN service up is aircraft availability. The A340-300 (or maybe the A330-300, but isn't MNL-YVR a stretch for it?) is the ideal aircraft for the route, but they are currently stretched pretty thin. When the 777-300ERs start coming in and replacing the A330/340 on routes like LAX, NRT, SYD, etc. I think we'll see the firm announcement of service to SAN.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
Indy
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:10 am



Quoting Trvlr (Reply 29):
Bottom line, one day a full-service carrier will fly to San Diego from the right destination with the right equipment and the right mixture of connections and O&D. And they will make money. It's not a question of if, but when. The evolution of markets like PDX, LAS, and PHX proves that.

Yup. People want nonstop service. If the airlines can make it work they will do it. I think they are finally starting to realize that you don't have to funnel everyone through hubs to make money. I think this is just the beginning. You are going to find more airlines doing this and involving more city pairs. Definitely a win for consumers.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
eghansen
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:35 am



Quoting Trvlr (Reply 29):
The same could be said about PDX a few years ago. And yet, now they have FRA with AMS on the way. While the above logic has a certain degree of truth to it, in the long term it doesn't really hold water. After all, why does Philadelphia have international service--on a number of different airlines--when New York is just up the road? PHL is actually closer to JFK than SAN is to LAX.

At the risk if quibbling over details, it is possible that Philadelphia has a large hub because the Philadelphia CMSA has a population of 5,826,742 and the San Diego MSA has a population of 2,941,454, roughly the same as St. Louis (another city without many international fights).

Quoting San747 (Reply 30):
I think the thing that's holding SAN service up is aircraft availability. The A340-300 (or maybe the A330-300, but isn't MNL-YVR a stretch for it?) is the ideal aircraft for the route, but they are currently stretched pretty thin. When the 777-300ERs start coming in and replacing the A330/340 on routes like LAX, NRT, SYD, etc. I think we'll see the firm announcement of service to SAN.

I really wish and hope and pray and dream of it all becoming true. And your arguments are wonderful, concise, concrete, well thought out, intelligent and memorable. Then the reality sets in. San Diego has a dinky little airport with a dinky little runway, dinky little terminals, dinky apron areas, dinky parking lots. When we have even a tiny amount of rain or fog, the airplane starts operating in a contraflow operation which jams everything up beyond belief. I have myself seen a line if 15 planes sitting waiting for 30 minutes to take off as the FAA struggles to handle the arrivals without an ILS on the runway facing into the wind. I myself have ridden a bus for two hours from LAX to SAN because we diverted when the fog set in and nothing could land.

But I will keep an eye out anyway.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
Indy
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:42 am



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 32):
San Diego has a dinky little airport with a dinky little runway, dinky little terminals, dinky apron areas, dinky parking lots.

A runway length of 9401 feet at 17 feet above sea level is fine. The airport may not have a lot of room to work with but it isn't that dinky. It may not be huge but the terminal is more pleasant than say something like MEM which really is dinky. In fact I believe my recent fly to SAN used their international arrivals gate. At least the area was marked off on the tarmac as if it were an international arrivals gate. I didn't pay much attention to the end of the gate when I exited the plane. The terminal seemed fine to me. The parking area was a bit strange though.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Trvlr
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:59 am



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 32):
At the risk if quibbling over details, it is possible that Philadelphia has a large hub because the Philadelphia CMSA has a population of 5,826,742 and the San Diego MSA has a population of 2,941,454, roughly the same as St. Louis (another city without many international fights).

True, but the USAirways hub does not account for 100% of its international service. If the hub is what set the city apart, it would not have AF, BA, etc. Moreover, a hub exists at PHL not only because of its convenient geographical location, but also because of its O&D traffic. The point is, PHL, like many other airports "living in the shadow" of a bigger facility elsewhere, is not disadvantaged because New York City airports are less than 100 miles away. Airlines are beginning to realize that there is a significant competitive advantage to serving multiple points within the same geographic region. This has been the case in the Northeast for some time, and will only become moreso in the southwestern U.S. as cities grow and LAX/SFO reach capacity.

Quoting Indy (Reply 33):
A runway length of 9401 feet at 17 feet above sea level is fine. The airport may not have a lot of room to work with but it isn't that dinky. It may not be huge but the terminal is more pleasant than say something like MEM which really is dinky. In fact I believe my recent fly to SAN used their international arrivals gate. At least the area was marked off on the tarmac as if it were an international arrivals gate. I didn't pay much attention to the end of the gate when I exited the plane. The terminal seemed fine to me. The parking area was a bit strange though.

The runway's fine if you want to fly to JFK. I would be very surprised if Zoom doesn't encounter performance restrictions on its flight (as it's primarily a tourist outfit, I don't know what kind of cargo they would be carrying). Bottom line is, not many airlines can fly a plane out of there long-haul, and long-haul flights are exactly the value-add that San Diego needs right now.

The terminal facilities themselves aren't that bad actually, especially T2W. The only problem is that there just isn't enough space. With new entrants like VX coming in and incumbents ramping up flights, there's going to a crunch soon, especially during peak periods. An expansion to T2W is on the horizon, but won't be online for another 5 years or so. Things could get pretty hairy in 2011-2012.
 
Indy
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:06 am

Yeah I can see where growth at SAN will be a problem. They are seriously painted into a corner.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
DCAYOW
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:09 pm



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 32):
San Diego MSA has a population of 2,941,454, roughly the same as St. Louis (another city without many international fights).

Strict population comparisons only tell part of the story. While San Diego may have the same population size as St Louis, its Europe traffic is more than twice the size of STL. San Diego has a ascendant economy and an intrinsic tourist value, which STL does not have year-round.

Like Trvlr mentions, PHL has had service to Europe for decades in the shadow of NYC.
Retorne ao céu...
 
juventus
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:09 pm



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 32):
I really wish and hope and pray and dream of it all becoming true. And your arguments are wonderful, concise, concrete, well thought out, intelligent and memorable. Then the reality sets in. San Diego has a dinky little airport with a dinky little runway, dinky little terminals, dinky apron areas, dinky parking lots. When we have even a tiny amount of rain or fog, the airplane starts operating in a contraflow operation which jams everything up beyond belief

Yes but the city's tourist attractions and business opportunities are not "dinky".
 
eghansen
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:07 pm



Quoting Indy (Reply 35):
Yeah I can see where growth at SAN will be a problem. They are seriously painted into a corner.

The airport is so small that when BA's 777 departed, it had to taxi east on Taxiway B, make a left turn on taxiway B4, cross the runway, taxi further east on taxiway C on the north side of the runway, then make a right turn on taxiway D, cross the runway again, then continue on taxiway B to Runway 09. All this because the taxiway is too close to the airport perimeter fence and some buildings for a heavy to travel on.

When BA first started flying out of SAN, the airport would detail two airport police cars with flashing lights to ride at each end of the wing so the pilots would know when they were coming too close to the perimeter fence and navigate through the narrow spaces.

The tower literally shut down all operations on the runway for about 7 minutes to get the 777 to the departure point. The only reason this was possible at all is that the heavy operations period on the west coast is in the morning and by 4:30 pm, the airport is slower than at other times.

A couple of weeks ago, I saw an Atlas Air 747-200F take off from SAN and it also had a police car with flashing lights riding wingman to keep the plane from running into the Jimsair GA parking area.

Quoting Juventus (Reply 37):
Yes but the city's tourist attractions and business opportunities are not "dinky".

That's why Zoom is coming here.

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 36):
Like Trvlr mentions, PHL has had service to Europe for decades in the shadow of NYC.

That's true. I flew LHR-PHL on a Pan Am 707 in 1971 when I was 10 years old.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Rojo (Reply 13):
Does anyone know the performance of the B767-300 on the SAN-LGW sector with Zooms 263Y and Y+ configuration?? It should go out with some weight restrictions due to the length of the runway!!
There won't be any cargo, and it'll take a pax hit as well. The airport paid $300,000 for this service and no downline connectivity. What a disgusting waste of money.

Quoting San747 (Reply 23):
Well, PR has publicly said it wants to fly to SAN for the last year or so, it just needs the aircraft for the flight.
There is no aircraft in production or planned that can make that route without a stop. There are too many alternative routings out there to justify it. LH doesn't have an aircraft either.

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 36):
San Diego has a ascendant economy and an intrinsic tourist value, which STL does not have year-round.
True, but St. Louis offers connectivity where San Diego does not so it's not even an apples to apples.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 38):
The airport is so small that when BA's 777 departed, it had to taxi east on Taxiway B, make a left turn on taxiway B4, cross the runway, taxi further east on taxiway C on the north side of the runway, then make a right turn on taxiway D, cross the runway again, then continue on taxiway B to Runway 09. All this because the taxiway is too close to the airport perimeter fence and some buildings for a heavy to travel on.

When BA first started flying out of SAN, the airport would detail two airport police cars with flashing lights to ride at each end of the wing so the pilots would know when they were coming too close to the perimeter fence and navigate through the narrow spaces.

The tower literally shut down all operations on the runway for about 7 minutes to get the 777 to the departure point. The only reason this was possible at all is that the heavy operations period on the west coast is in the morning and by 4:30 pm, the airport is slower than at other times.

1. The taxi route has to do with the fencline south of the taxiway and nothing else.
2. Shut down all operations? Where do you people come up with this crap?

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 29):
The same could be said about PDX a few years ago. And yet, now they have FRA with AMS on the way.

True, but PDX has a freakin runway. Terrain is the problem at SAN and when the service fails and $300k goes down the toilet, the incompetent fool who is clearly lacking the ability to match technical capability with economic consiquences that dreamed up this non-connective service will hopefully get a swift kick to the curb.

[Edited 2007-12-19 20:50:47]
 
eghansen
Posts: 281
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:03 am



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 39):
1. The taxi route has to do with the fenceline south of the taxiway and nothing else.

Yes, but the reason the fenceline has not been moved is because the Teledyne-Ryan buildings are in the way. I do believe that the Airport is attempting to tear down these buildings and lease this land from the Port Authority, so this problem may be rectified in the future.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 39):
Shut down all operations? Where do you people come up with this crap?

When a 777 taxis down a parallel taxiway, turns to cross the only active runway at 90 degrees, turns onto another parallel taxiway, taxis for 650m, and then again crosses the only active runway, it takes out a total of six minutes (three minutes each time) when the runway cannot accept landing or departing aircraft. I suppose the tower could let the 777 idle on the north taxiway while some airplanes land and take-off, but the few times I watched the BA plane take off, they did not appear to do this. They kept any other aircraft waiting well behind the intersection of Taxiway D and Taxiway B while the BA plane made its royal progress unhindered.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:09 pm



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 40):
it takes out a total of six minutes (three minutes each time) when the runway cannot accept landing or departing aircraft

This is untrue. While non-standard, the runway-taxiway separation is more than sufficient for an ADG-V bird and non-precision arrivals. 200-Feet for the runway OFA, 45 for wingtip separation plus half the wingspan = 345-feet. The taxiway is separated from SAN's runway by 362.5-Feet. That whole BS argument over that routing being an issue was dreamed up for the site selection program by the incompetent fools running SAN these days to give a reason for moving the airport. While a new airport is necessary, making such a foolish argument while knowing that the removal of Teledyne is just down the road is just pathetic. Then again, these are the same people who just spent $300k on service with no down-line connectivity.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20071219/news_1b19zoom.html

Hampton Brown, an Airport Authority expert on route development, said the British carrier's now-defunct service ranked slightly higher than the U.S. average in terms of seats occupied. But while the flight was popular, British Airways couldn't tempt enough business travelers to fill its more profitable business and first-class seats.

Expert? The flight had a 72% load factor. What about connectivity? What about the fact that if international service were truly viable and not related to the terrain that every Tom, Dick and Harry would be setting up shop for SAN to serve as a spoke city. Blah Blah Blah... I know, when BA was at SAN there was the issue of governmental ticketing preference. That's gone now, and has been for some time so where is BA? Where is LH? KLM? AF? These are all technically viable markets apparently. There is certainly enough pax demand.

I'll give you a hint: TERRAIN AND THE ASSOCIATED PAYLOAD PENALTY IS THE PROBLEM!

And the 787 and A350 will unfortunately fare no better.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:58 pm

We've been through all of this before with Lindbergh's runway.I'm willing to bet the members of the SDCRAA were not stupid when they approached ZOOM about serving this area.They know about all that weight penalty/runway terrain stuff.As I mentioned before,If they knew that runway was not going to support any type of long haul flights then they would'nt be out trying to lure int'l airlines to this area with all the incentives.I believe that something positive can come from this new London service.Yes,I believe eventually we'll have a proper airport built at Miramar,but for now,Lindbergh is all we have and I applaud the Airport Authority for even giving a crap for trying. There are too many San Diegans here who'd rather concede all of our air service to say Ontario,or Tijuana. All I'm saying is that okay so 747's and 777s
have problems taking off from here.But I believe the 763 can finally make this work,as what ZOOM has in their fleet. Heck,
I believe BA could have probably went out with full loads if they would have used one of their 767's instead of the 777.
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:58 pm



Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 42):
As I mentioned before,If they knew that runway was not going to support any type of long haul flights then they would'nt be out trying to lure int'l airlines to this area with all the incentives.

If the service where economically viable from the existing runway environment, you wouldn't need an incentive.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:17 pm



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 43):
If the service where economically viable from the existing runway environment, you wouldn't need an incentive.


You need those incentives to attract the airlines. Those cities,(ones with adequate runway facilities) all have incentives to attract more Int'l service. DEN,PDX,SEA,SFO,SJC have all implemented incentives.If you read another thread,SJC has incentives to try to attract Indian airlines,(they say because of a large Indian population there).I mentioned this before.The airlines are not approaching those cities with new service.Those city officials are actively courting the airlines using generous incentive packages.The SDCRAA is simply competeing with the other cities. Here's a little something I wanted
to share involving the Lindbergh runway controversy.About the summer of 1990 when I was working at SAN,a travel agency
put together a vacation package to Australia.They chartered a Qantas jet to do it.Instead of a 747,they used a 763.(runway issues you know).I was told the flight went all the way to Sydney.I saw the plane when I was working that day.When it took off, it had no problems climbing out over Pt. Loma. It climbed just like all the other planes do from there.
Let me use another example of cities using incentives.Back in 1986,I lived in Raleigh.I was there when AA opened their hub.I remember RDU officials actively wooing AA to fly to LGW.They were competing with CLT who had their Piedmont
hub there (prior to the US merger).In the end RDU got an ORY flight and CLT got a LGW flight (the ORY flight has since vanished along with the RDU hub),but they have a subsidized AA flight to LHR.
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Slovacek747
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:28 pm

I don't know how the runway is such a big issuel. 9400 is fairly long and should be more than enough when not faced with the terrain. I believe 27 would take the plan straight out over the water and when this happens length should be no issue and should be able to hand plenty of cargo. I took off from IAH going to NRT (14 hours) in a 777 and I know it had cargo and we were full in terms of pax, yet we only used maybe 7500 ft. of runway. I don't understand why SAN has such issues when it's at sea level. The only issue I see is when they are faced to take off on 9.

Slovacek747
 
ECONOMICS
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:44 pm

there was talk a while ago of Zoom flying to Australia (not neseccarily SYD) admiitedly with Zoom Canada from Canada. Perhaps Zoom UK could fly SAN/AUSTRALIA via somewhere like NAN ? That would be a great leaisure route & much better than flying LAX/SYD & having to connect on to another OZ city.

Could a Zoom 763ER fly SAN/NAN nonstop without weight restriction, remembering they wouldn't carry much freight & passenger loads aren't like the 380 that some UK charter operators jam onto aircraft.

Heard Zoom was having trouble finding 763ER's with the same kind of engines. Surely with the coming world economic downturn there are going to be plenty of 763ER's parked soon?
 
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Coronado990
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:57 pm



Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 44):
They chartered a Qantas jet to do it.Instead of a 747,they used a 763.(runway issues you know).I was told the flight went all the way to Sydney.I saw the plane when I was working that day.When it took off, it had no problems climbing out over Pt. Loma. It climbed just like all the other planes do from there.

It was probably weight-restricted. If this 763 lost an engine on rotation off of Lindbergh's 27 fully loaded with fuel and passengers for a transpacific journey, it would probably come very close to plowing into houses on top of the hill. Everything is based on that 200+ foot hill at Pt. Loma. Get rid of that and then no problems.
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Zoom UK To FLL And SAN

Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 45):
I don't know how the runway is such a big issuel. 9400 is fairly long and should be more than enough when not faced with the terrain.

The takeoff distance is 6,997.945' terrain factored (I have performance data from Jepp to get this number) for heavy twins from Runway 27. So yes, it is a big issue.

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 45):
I took off from IAH going to NRT (14 hours) in a 777 and I know it had cargo and we were full in terms of pax, yet we only used maybe 7500 ft. of runway.

The takeoff distance for that route full is about 10,500 so a rotation at 7,500-feet would be about right.

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 47):
Everything is based on that 200+ foot hill at Pt. Loma. Get rid of that and then no problems.

200? He He... Single engine climb at 250' per nm vs a required 317' per nm... Ouch.

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 44):
About the summer of 1990 when I was working at SAN,a travel agency
put together a vacation package to Australia.They chartered a Qantas jet to do it.Instead of a 747,they used a 763.(runway issues you know).I was told the flight went all the way to Sydney.

A weight limited 767.

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 44):
I saw the plane when I was working that day.When it took off, it had no problems climbing out over Pt. Loma. It climbed just like all the other planes do from there.

The payload for that route from a full length runway of 11,000-feet is 45,862 lbs. From SAN the payload is 8,536-lbs. So no, it stopped somewhere, probably Hawaii or it had about 40 pax and bags.

[Edited 2007-12-20 18:54:05]

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