Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:08 am

Good news for Frankfurt airport- the administravtive tribunal has cleard the construction of a forth runway and a third terminal,easing at the same time the night-flight restrictions.
It is expected that the new runway will be ready in 2010 ..
Article -in German only .

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,523983,00.html
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
nudelhirsch
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:20 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:14 am

That's great news. Daytime capacity will increase around 50%. Great setup for the future.

The biggest reason for canning the night restrictions is the tricky legal situation as LEJ just got big time cargo business and MUC has no / less restrictions. The politicians didn't even try to set restrictions and hope for cooperation but they canned them right away before getting in legal trouble...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4530
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:20 am

However, it is still possible to go before courts for all opponents of the expansion. The bulldozers can only begin after this, so that there will go some time until we see the new runway. I do think, however that this ruling will survive the courts, so that we should see a new runway in some years.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:22 am

To be precise, the State of Hesse Government - Department for Industry and Transport has approved the building permission.

This can and certainly will be challenged in the Hesse State Administrative Court in Kassel and likely afterwards in the Federal Administrative Court in Leipzig.

However, should the court in Kassel signal that they will not stoip the immediatey start of the planning and building of the runway, Fraport will go ahead immediately and a ready date by 2011 is likely. In the worst case however the State Court will issue a ban and the project will be in limbo for years to come.

Fraport needed the runy already last year, just check the growth figures, which are at 2 % in y year where 5% and higher is industry standard.

Let's hope that this project will go thriugh as fast as possible and that the night operations will be allowed at a reasonable level as well.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:22 am



Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 1):
MUC has no / less restrictions.

MUC has much tighter restrictions concerning nighttime operations than FRA has or will have.

All in all, a good day for aviation. Let the construction begin asap.

SailorOrion
 
nudelhirsch
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:20 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:39 am



Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 4):
MUC has much tighter restrictions concerning nighttime operations than FRA has or will have.

My bad, I relied on an article in the press, not a.net...  Wink


Still I tihnk that with the growth of MUC and the contracts in LEJ the ressure on the politics and courts is high, as Fraport is either going to create new jobs (u to 40k) or otherwise runs the risk of losing more parcel business, maybe even some more serious pax and freight business.

While most airports in Germany are growing these days, MUC and LEJ are the winners, DUS made a nice step by catching LH transatlantic starting '08. FRA now needs to fight hard for staying up front.


Read an interesting article about THF on Aero this year, where the CEO of Bahn publically considered investing in THF as a supplement to the transportation network of the railway system... Very interesting, yet off topic here now...  Wink
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:49 am

Definitely good news. Guess I'll be packing my chainsaw, take the train to FRA, and help them cut down all those damn trees to make way for the new runway  Silly .
 
felixZRH
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 9:43 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:56 am

Here is the press release of Fraport:
http://www.fraport.com/cms/press_cen...historic_day_for_frankfurt_air.htm

I'm really curious if the runway will be ready by 2011 or 2015 or even later...
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2334
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:57 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
a forth runway

It's tiny! How long will it be? It also seems an odd location ("behind" the terminal) when there's so much empty space to the SW - one would expect a a new runway parallel to the take-off runway.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
Indy
Posts: 4958
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:59 am

Is there a decent size image of the plan on the net? The one in the article in the first post is kind of hard to see.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:00 am

Calm down guys. Good news will be when the first jet lands on the new runway. Before that, it's still along way to Tipperary.

FRA is falling behind for years oin a row now and without the new Munich Airport, Lufthansa would not be the company it is today. It is as usual,we are dumb lucky in this country and we have managers who take the opportiunites that come up. For that, they get bad news in the press and by politicians for their (too high sic) income.

I applaud only after all legal hurdles are taken and politics doe not screw this one up as well.



.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2334
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:14 pm



Quoting Indy (Reply 9):
Is there a decent size image of the plan on the net?

Not sure what you consider decent, but this I found these:





http://www.ausbau.fraport.com/cms/default/rubrik/2/2227.htm
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:11 pm

I guess some LH and Fraport Managers will open a bottle of champagne tonight. Big grin

Good news as this expantion is really needed!  Smile
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4530
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:26 pm



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 8):
It's tiny! How long will it be? It also seems an odd location ("behind" the terminal) when there's so much empty space to the SW - one would expect a a new runway parallel to the take-off runway.

Many possible alternatives for the 4th runway were indeed looked after, but the other alternatives, especially a parallel runway to the take-off runway 18L were dismissed, as they had more drawbacks.

It is mainly landing capacity that FRA has problems with. A runway parallel to 18 L could not be used independently of the two existing landing runways. The new runway will be used for landings only.
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:28 pm



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 13):
The new runway will be used for landings only.

In the new Aero edition is a bag articel about this. Great stuff and the new runway is for ( acc to the mag) for landings only.  Smile
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:07 pm



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 13):

Many possible alternatives for the 4th runway were indeed looked after, but the other alternatives, especially a parallel runway to the take-off runway 18L were dismissed, as they had more drawbacks.

A parallel to 18 was never seriously discussed. The alternates discussed are a northern variant NE of the present T1/2 complex and a southern variant, south of the Cargo City South.

the latter would have made 18 obsolete and not really increased the capacity to the desired level.
.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
steman
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:25 pm

There is something I have not understood (I can´t read the related article in German)
Will the airport have a night curfew on flights?
I recall LH Cargo threatening to move its operations elsewhere, Hahn or France,
if the Authorities would have imposed such restrictions.
That would certainly be bad not only for LH and Fraport but for the whole community,
considering how cargo would have to be moved by road from FRA to LHC new base.

Ciao

Stefano
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:28 pm



Quoting Steman (Reply 16):
I recall LH Cargo threatening to move its operations elsewhere, Hahn or France,
if the Authorities would have imposed such restrictions.

The latest I heard is that we still will be allowed to have several departures at night, but NO landings at all... between 1am and 4am. So it wont change a lot then...


Changing the cargo hub would be pretty bad and expensive, because a lot of cargo is being sent with the passenger aircrafts. And if our hub is somewhere else you need to transport the cargo from somewhere to FRA or from FRA to hour new Cargo hub where the cargo airplanes depart to all over the world... Pretty expensive....

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:49 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 17):

The latest I heard is that we still will be allowed to have several departures at night, but NO landings at all... between 1am and 4am. So it wont change a lot the

That is the status quo with no specified numbers.

The new would be 17 plenned movements between 23 and 5. That may suit LCAG alone but is not enough for the others. Still,better than nothing and nobody prevents future governments from elightenment. A good numbetr of flights would be scheduled close to 2300 and if landings and take offs are delayed, that does not count.

The moving of the DHL cargo hub to LEJ was a smart move as well, some operations might be shuffled around there.

Time will tell..
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:52 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):

Time will tell..

You name it! Everything changes everyday! Hard to be up to date all the time...
But I still prefer FRA for me because easier to commute to! Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
LH748i
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:07 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:09 pm

Are there already plans in terms of terminal using? Does T2 become Star terminal, like T1 is and T3 becomes the Non-Sar Alliance terminal? Or is T3 going to become a share terminal for all?

And is the minimum connection time going to stay 30 minutes (if you have to go to T3 by sky train...)?

Frank
Lights will guide you home... next: FRA - BOG - FRA
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18715
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:20 pm

Why isn't the fourth runway south of the new Terminal 3? Seems like there's plenty of space for a parallel runway down there, no?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
LH748i
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:07 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Why isn't the fourth runway south of the new Terminal 3? Seems like there's plenty of space for a parallel runway down there, no?

Because problems with take offs from the 18 west would come up, depending on from which side aircrafts were on short final for the "new runway"

[Edited 2007-12-18 07:25:49]
Lights will guide you home... next: FRA - BOG - FRA
 
incitatus
Posts: 3400
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:02 pm

Won't FRA look like a FRAnkenstein airport? The original setup from the 70s was nicely done. Then terminal 2 came along with the little train shuttling passengers to terminal 1. Then the third runway was built in a very constrained placement. Now a fourth runway is supposed to go north of the current airport with the old air base being made into passenger terminals with the little train extended to go around the original runways.

The fact that it looks patched up is irrelevant, but that also indicates that the functioning of the airport as traffic grows will become ever more complicated and further additions will be harder and harder.

Why not rethink the whole utilization of the land and come up with a plan that works in the very long run and will maximize the utilization of the space - such as separating the two original runways and constructing an integrated set of terminals? As is the whole thing looks very un-German.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:30 pm

The most elegant solution would've been to abandon RW 18 and instead build 2 parallel runways in the south that can be used independently from the existing 7/25 runways.

But, of course, everything Mr. Koch is somehow involved in ends up as crap. I fail to see the point of applauding that bastard child of a runway they now want to build.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18715
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:48 pm



Quoting Racko (Reply 24):
The most elegant solution would've been to abandon RW 18 and instead build 2 parallel runways in the south that can be used independently from the existing 7/25 runways.

That's what I assumed...is 18/36 really that important?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:56 pm



Quoting Steman (Reply 16):
I recall LH Cargo threatening to move its operations elsewhere, Hahn or France,

Actually I have heard exactly the opposite. Fraport wants the night time cargo flights to got to HHN, which has free capacities and wants to attract additional customers to get out of the stranglehold FR has over this airport.
LH is against this move, because it will give them logistical problems (it is easier to move the cargo just across a ramp than to carry it 160 km by road).
There is also still the problem that the last 20 km of refurbishing the B50 highway (which connects HHN to the Rhein-Main area) is not yet finished and will probably take another two years (there are about 25 bridges on this stretch, which have to be rebuilt to get the highway to almost motorway standard). The road is finished from Rheinboellen, where it meets the A61 motorway up to the town of Simmern, but the rest is still a construction site. Work in the other direction, from HHN to Luxemburg, has not even started yet.
Also, there exist problems with the rail connection between FRA and HHN.
While there exists an existing track and the airport has it's own branch line, the last train used it about 25 years ago, when the line was closed due to low revenue. By now there are trees growing between the sleepers.
Funds for reopening and rebuilding the line have been allocated, but all the communities, which's land the line passes, need to give their approval for reopening it.
Now for Fraport the rail connection would only make sense if the train would be faster than the existing busses, which take about 1.5 to 2 hours to get from HHN to FRA.
This is only possible if the train is an express train, which only stops e.g. in Simmern, Bingen, Mainz and FRA.
Now the local communities all insist that there will be full train service to each village, else they will not give their approval for reopening the line. In this case it will probably take 3 hours for the train to get from FRA to HHN.
IMO one option would be to run an express train every 30 minutes and have a local train, which stops at every village, inbetween.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:38 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
That's what I assumed...is 18/36 really that important?

Given that movements at FRA are at the absolute maximum, yes, it is very badly needed.

Quoting Racko (Reply 24):
The most elegant solution would've been to abandon RW 18 and instead build 2 parallel runways in the south that can be used independently from the existing 7/25 runways.

That indeed would be a good solution, but think of all the trees that would have to be cut down. Trying such a proposal would probably cause more protests than the whole "Startbahn West" ordeal.
That said, IMHO it would have also been a step forward to move 07R/25L further to the south, thus allowing actual dual landings, not the staggered ones they have to run nowadays.

Quoting LH748i (Reply 20):
Are there already plans in terms of terminal using? Does T2 become Star terminal, like T1 is and T3 becomes the Non-Sar Alliance terminal? Or is T3 going to become a share terminal for all?

FraPort wants to move LH to the new Terminal 3, but LH wants to remain in T1 and T2 and have everyone else moved to T3. Who will win out, that still remains to be seen.

Quoting LH748i (Reply 20):
And is the minimum connection time going to stay 30 minutes (if you have to go to T3 by sky train...)?

Between Lufthansa and/or Star Alliance flights, most likely, but everything else, probably 45 minutes at least.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:46 pm



Quoting LH748i (Reply 20):
Are there already plans in terms of terminal using? Does T2 become Star terminal, like T1 is and T3 becomes the Non-Sar Alliance terminal? Or is T3 going to become a share terminal for all?

That will be highly likely. LH + * is everything north of the airport and the remaining 30% are south.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Why isn't the fourth runway south of the new Terminal 3? Seems like there's plenty of space for a parallel runway down there, no?

besides that it would render 18 obsolete - see below

Quoting Racko (Reply 24):
The most elegant solution would've been to abandon RW 18 and instead build 2 parallel runways in the south that can be used independently from the existing 7/25 runways.

But, of course, everything Mr. Koch is somehow involved in ends up as crap. I fail to see the point of applauding that bastard child of a runway they now want to build.

Don't blame Mr.Koch please. The crap results from that famous "compromise" made by Mr. Holger Boerner and his predecessors, when the decided on building the 18 instead of a parallel runway south between the Airbase and Moierfelden. They could have followed the experts , they could have build the 3rd runway for the same amount of trouble and civil war they had with enforcing Runway 18. But we live in compromise country.

Had they done it then, there would not even be a need for number 4 now, because the three could handle the 120 movements required. However,a fourth short runway for coimmuter traffic would not be that much of a hassle to get through.

Now, when you start bullshitting, you should may be go a bit more into the history of this screwed up situation.

PM Koch has brought the project to building stage. That's not crap, that is more than all of his predecessors in this job have achieved. Including Mr.Boerner, who is responsible for a crappy compromise called 18.



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 23):
Won't FRA look like a FRAnkenstein airport?

FRAnkenstein Castle is on Mount FRAnkenstein, south of Darmstadt. Go there next halloween and have fun, it's about 30 minutes from the airport on the A5

.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18715
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:16 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 27):
Given that movements at FRA are at the absolute maximum, yes, it is very badly needed.

It is now, but in a world where you have four parallel runways at FRA, how often is a cross wind runway really needed?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):
They could have followed the experts , they could have build the 3rd runway for the same amount of trouble and civil war they had with enforcing Runway 18

Achso
I don't take responsibility at all
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:24 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
It is now, but in a world where you have four parallel runways at FRA, how often is a cross wind runway really needed?

Never, but as said, 4 parallel runways at FRA are simply not realistically gonna happen.




Of course, if a forest fire were to accidently burn down all the trees where those 2 new parallels could be build  scratchchin  ...
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:00 pm

Slightly off topic, but do you guys (and gals) know that the little forest between the former airbase and Walldorf-Moerfelden contains the remains of a concentration camp?
It was a branch camp of the concentration camp for women Ravensbrueck. The prisoners were mostly Jewish women from Hungary, who were sent there to build the first concrete runway during WW2.
The runway was needed by the Nazi Luftwaffe for the Messerschmitt 262 jet fighter and later the reason why the US Army Air Corps (and later the USAF) used the airfield.
The foundations of the prisoner barracks can still be seen in the forest (which only grew during the last 60 years).
Some years ago a local highschool class did a project about the history of their town and stumbled over over the former concentration camp, much to the anger of elder locals, who wanted to have this piece of history forgetten. The highschool students managed to contact former prisoners and interviewed them.
A result of this project was a memorial walk in the forest, with panels explaining the layout annd history of the camp.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:16 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):

Actually I have heard exactly the opposite. Fraport wants the night time cargo flights to got to HHN, which has free capacities and wants to attract additional customers to get out of the stranglehold FR has over this airport.
LH is against this move, because it will give the

Fraport does not want that, the Hesse + Rhineland Palatine State Governments wanted that. However LH would rather cut out cargo altogether than go to HHN. Wouldn't make sense, they would be quicker by truck in CGN and they have just moved that ops toLEJ.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 27):

FraPort wants to move LH to the new Terminal 3, but LH wants to remain in T1 and T2 and have everyone else moved to T3. Who will win out, that still remains to be see

As they say in the US - where does a 500 lbs Gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants. LH is Fraport biggest tennant and customer. They tell Fraport what they want and where they want it.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 27):

That indeed would be a good solution, but think of all the trees that would have to be cut down. Trying such a proposal would probably cause more protests than the whole "Startbahn West" ordeal.

Trees have to be cut down for all possible solutions. That goes for the NW variant as well.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18715
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:00 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 30):
Of course, if a forest fire were to accidently burn down all the trees where those 2 new parallels could be build

Ah the Spanish strategy  stirthepot 
I don't take responsibility at all
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:30 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 32):
As they say in the US - where does a 500 lbs Gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants. LH is Fraport biggest tennant and customer. They tell Fraport what they want and where they want it.

That's true, but then again, FraPort can argument that T3 will be newer (obviously) than T1/2 and will offer the superior facilities, not to mention shorter intra-terminal connections.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 32):
Trees have to be cut down for all possible solutions. That goes for the NW variant as well.

Obviously, but this solution with the NW runway and keeping 18/36 requires less trees to be cut down than the theorethical 06/24s, not to mention that any trees between those new runways and the existing airport would likely also be cut down to make way for more cargo or maintenance areas as well.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:31 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 34):

That's true, but then again, FraPort can argument that T3 will be newer (obviously) than T1/2 and will offer the superior facilities, not to mention shorter intra-terminal connection

No chance. LH just gets the 0 concourse, the 5th runway, meaning the ICE train station is adjacent to t1, the First Class Terminal, the cargo center ( T3 would add at least 30 mins tpo flash cut off times)

Wanna hear more? Maintenance Base, LH HQ, Ringeltaube etc.... No chance in heaven LH would go to T3.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
Ah the Spanish strategy

Doesn't work here, too wet. Plus, the fire brigades of Fraport, Kelsterbach, Moerfelden, Ticona or Raunheim would put any wood fire out in less than 20 minutes, even if the timber is dry as a fart.. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:22 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
No chance. LH just gets the 0 concourse, the 5th runway, meaning the ICE train station is adjacent to t1, the First Class Terminal, the cargo center ( T3 would add at least 30 mins tpo flash cut off times)

Wanna hear more? Maintenance Base, LH HQ, Ringeltaube etc.... No chance in heaven LH would go to T3.

Don't get me wrong, I doubt LH would move to T3, but at the same time, weirder things have happened, especially in aviation  Wink .

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
Doesn't work here, too wet. Plus, the fire brigades of Fraport, Kelsterbach, Moerfelden, Ticona or Raunheim would put any wood fire out in less than 20 minutes, even if the timber is dry as a fart.. .

Perhaps the US left some unused Napalm or "Agent Orange" on their former AFB  stirthepot  .
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1679
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:43 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Why isn't the fourth runway south of the new Terminal 3? Seems like there's plenty of space for a parallel runway down there, no?



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 13):


Quote:
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 8):
It's tiny! How long will it be? It also seems an odd location ("behind" the terminal) when there's so much empty space to the SW - one would expect a a new runway parallel to the take-off runway.

Many possible alternatives for the 4th runway were indeed looked after, but the other alternatives, especially a parallel runway to the take-off runway 18L were dismissed, as they had more drawbacks.

It is mainly landing capacity that FRA has problems with. A runway parallel to 18 L could not be used independently of the two existing landing runways. The new runway will be used for landings only.

To me, it seems well thought. First, a disclaimer: I've never been there, and can only look at the satellite picture. Yet, I can easily figure that the actual "footprint" of that northern runway is probably smaller than anything that would have been to the south, and also, in westerly winds, the flight path will be coming to land over a portion of motorway, so, there should not be as much noise problem as if it were closer to a community.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
Slightly off topic, but do you guys (and gals) know that the little forest between the former airbase and Walldorf-Moerfelden contains the remains of a concentration camp?
It was a branch camp of the concentration camp for women Ravensbrueck. The prisoners were mostly Jewish women from Hungary, who were sent there to build the first concrete runway during WW2.
The runway was needed by the Nazi Luftwaffe for the Messerschmitt 262 jet fighter and later the reason why the US Army Air Corps (and later the USAF) used the airfield.
The foundations of the prisoner barracks can still be seen in the forest (which only grew during the last 60 years).
Some years ago a local highschool class did a project about the history of their town and stumbled over over the former concentration camp, much to the anger of elder locals, who wanted to have this piece of history forgetten. The highschool students managed to contact former prisoners and interviewed them.
A result of this project was a memorial walk in the forest, with panels explaining the layout annd history of the camp.

Jan

Interesting piece of history. Thanks, and bravo to the students.

There is a WWII prisoner's camp near Gaillac, in the south of France, and, well, the local community is very quiet about it as well... I belive it was also a women's camp.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
LH748i
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:07 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:54 am



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 34):
That's true, but then again, FraPort can argument that T3 will be newer (obviously) than T1/2 and will offer the superior facilities, not to mention shorter intra-terminal connections.

But then LH can argue that the single T3 is way to small... I don't have excact numbers but I bet that LH brings around 25 million (the maximum future T3 capacity) customers through fra at the moment. In the near future it will be more and more (A380, 748 etc.) Also it wouldn't fit in terms of park positions. The Fraport hp says T3 has 75 park positions, which ois porbably right, if you park 75 737s or A320s, but not if you have a mix of wide and narrowbodies. And if you then add the Star Alliance members and codeshare members.... Forget about T3 for LH.

By the way. Does anybody have exact numbers of how many passengers go through T1 and how many through t2, how many customers LH has at Fra and how many at Muc?

Thank you

Frank
Lights will guide you home... next: FRA - BOG - FRA
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22420
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:45 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
easing at the same time the night-flight restrictions.

Wow! I'm very happy to hear this.  hyper  I thought that this would never happen.

Now for MUC to get its 3rd runway.  Wink

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):
LH is against this move, because it will give them logistical problems (it is easier to move the cargo just across a ramp than to carry it 160 km by road).

Talk about a time hit and expense. Half of cargo (worldwide, I'm talking in general) moves in the bellies of the passenger planes. Having the two separated breaks the economics. LH could have found itself in serious trouble competing with other airlines (e.g., EK).  Wink

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 27):
FraPort wants to move LH to the new Terminal 3, but LH wants to remain in T1 and T2 and have everyone else moved to T3. Who will win out, that still remains to be seen.

Oh... a future match!  box  Seriously, 25 million is nothing for LH and would best suit other airlines.  Wink

Great news! Now when does LHR get its 3rd runway!  duck 

Lightsaber
7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:34 am



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 36):
Perhaps the US left some unused Napalm or "Agent Orange" on their former AFB

They must have found that by now, there is no stone left on the other on the former Airbase site. There was no forest theere either.

Quoting LH748i (Reply 38):

By the way. Does anybody have exact numbers of how many passengers go through T1 and how many through t

Not exactly, but T1 handles close to 40 Million. When you look how and where LH parks its jets during the peak banks, there is simply not room for that on the southern side.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 39):
Talk about a time hit and expense. Half of cargo (worldwide, I'm talking in general) moves in the bellies of the passenger planes. Having the two separated breaks the economics. LH could have found itself in serious trouble competing with other airlines (e.g., E

Again, there is no way LHCargo will bow to this stupid political request. It is also not discussed any longer., Even when this was official policy and Fraport managers had to voice this publicly, they spoke just the opposite when facing people from the cargon industry. They would have been laughed at, otherwise.

LH would need to send 30000 trucks by year back and forth between HHN and FRA if the night ops where forced to HHN. Such a split operation would have cost 100- 120 Million pa. That's more than the net profit. Besides, they would have lost revenue because their transit times would not have been competetive.,

This is also the reason why LH Cargo needs night operations in Frankfurt.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:02 am



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 39):
Great news! Now when does LHR get its 3rd runway!

A fourth runway at FRA will chip away a bit at the opposition to a third runway at LHR. With all of LHR's competitors having four or more runways, it becomes difficult to argue that three is too many.
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:54 am



Quoting LH748i (Reply 38):
I don't have excact numbers but I bet that LH brings around 25 million (the maximum future T3 capacity) customers through fra at the moment

I would think it's more, seeing that T2@MUC has almost 25 million passengers per annum at the moment.

SailorOrion
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:57 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 39):
Talk about a time hit and expense. Half of cargo (worldwide, I'm talking in general) moves in the bellies of the passenger planes. Having the two separated breaks the economics. LH could have found itself in serious trouble competing with other airlines (e.g., E

Again, there is no way LHCargo will bow to this stupid political request. It is also not discussed any longer., Even when this was official policy and Fraport managers had to voice this publicly, they spoke just the opposite when facing people from the cargon industry. They would have been laughed at, otherwise.

LH would need to send 30000 trucks by year back and forth between HHN and FRA if the night ops where forced to HHN. Such a split operation would have cost 100- 120 Million pa. That's more than the net profit. Besides, they would have lost revenue because their transit times would not have been competetive.,

This is also the reason why LH Cargo needs night operations in Frankfurt.

Good, but there are still other cargo operators. Currently HHN's passenger side is controlled by FR and O'Leary makes sure that no other scheduled passenger airline will ever be profitable there (e.g. by flying the same routes at dumping prices (below cost), which O'Leary can afford, but which small upstart airlines can not.). The airport is in fact not making any profit out of FR (which the shareholders of Fraport, which operates HHN, are getting increasingly annoyed off).
On the cargo side there is only Aeroflot, who have a regular, dependable presence in HHN, everybody else just comes in ad hoc. There are warehouses and ramp capacity free in HHN, plus there is no curfew.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:36 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):

On the cargo side there is only Aeroflot, who have a regular, dependable presence in HHN, everybody else just comes in ad hoc. There are warehouses and ramp capacity free in HHN, plus there is no curfew.

yes, but there is no business either. HHN is for ad-hoc charter There are a few more cargo operators, as a matter of fact, but most of the freight which is handled through HHN is not time sensitive. Freight that needs the connectivity required by and for supply or logistic chains need to go through FRA. If there is a night curfew, this high yield traffic will be routed otherwise.

HHN is a niche player for ad hoc traffic and a FR type business model. It will never play any other role.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
caspritz78
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:51 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:05 am



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 8):
It's tiny! How long will it be? It also seems an odd location ("behind" the terminal) when there's so much empty space to the SW - one would expect a a new runway parallel to the take-off runway.

It will be used just for landings and the odd location s because of space limitations. The here already discussed possibility of adding new parallel runways in the south the so called Atlanta-Model was abandoned because of various reasons. Mainly because of costs and even higher expected resistance because a small town would be right in the landing path.

You could add of course a runway parallel to the existing 18/36 but again you could only use it for take offs in a southern direction. North of Frankfurt are mountains which make it pretty much impossible to land from the north. So this wouldn't really help.

I think what we get now is under the circumstances the best possible solution. I hope they start soon building it and that we get Terminal 3 soon.
 
airbusA346
Posts: 7284
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:05 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:14 pm

Might be slightly off topic, because does anybody have any good pictures of the current expansion at FRA, I have just read the most recent 'Aviation World' on there website and learned they have demolished the beutifly hangar  Sad Also and what hangar is that taxiway going through on that image to access right end of the 'new' runway?

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:36 pm

Try your luck at www.fraport.de

There you should find what you look for. That one taxiway is connecting to the apron between LH Cargo Centre and an employee car park. I haven't checked the plans, but the best way to handle this would be to build a new access gate for the LCC.

Interesting point, I will get some information.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
stylo777
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm

they are building up a new concourse to the West. A0 will be name and will have at least 7 parking positions for the A380. They recently destroyed hangar 3 for this project.

http://www.ig-oekoflughafen.de/images/T1_Erweiterung.jpg
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Green Light For FRA Expansion...

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:05 pm

Nice to see FRA making progress. Now if the obstructionists at LHR would only get out of the way and allow a new runway or two......  Angry With better options for making connections in Europe, I don't know why anyone would want to connect at LHR.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos