AF022
Topic Author
Posts: 1829
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

LHR Slot Swapping

Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:48 pm

I have read here that with the new bilateral US and DL and NW are coming to LHR and that they got these slots from partner airlines (KL and AF?).

Did these new US carriers pay their partners for these slots, or were they given away in order to strengthen the alliance?
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:02 pm

I would assume that many airlines had the "use-them-or-lose-them" slots.

There was a thread recently about Air France reducing the number of CDG/ORL-LHR flights from 11 to 8, presumably to operate LAX-LHR on AF.

And since the Bermuda II restrictions have been removed, I would assume many new entry airlines are getting the slots they need from alliance partners - for example, KL/AF to NW/CO/DL in some fashion.

In OneWorld, AA is already the dominant American carrier, so no route swapping is needed, and Star Alliance has United, but who in *A is giving up their slot for them US?  scratchchin 
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roseflyer
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RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:06 pm



Quoting AF022 (Thread starter):
Did these new US carriers pay their partners for these slots, or were they given away in order to strengthen the alliance?

The leasing of slots at LHR has been happening within the Star Alliance for years. United has leased slots to both LH and AC. The partner airlines do pay for the use of the slots, but UA retained ownership of them and can get them back when the lease expires. Overrall, UA has been giving up a number of slots since they took over the routes to LHR 15 years ago. UA ended all flying within Europe and thus has been able to earn money by selling and leasing unused slots.
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StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:57 pm



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):


Quoting AF022 (Thread starter):
Did these new US carriers pay their partners for these slots, or were they given away in order to strengthen the alliance?

The leasing of slots at LHR has been happening within the Star Alliance for years. United has leased slots to both LH and AC. The partner airlines do pay for the use of the slots, but UA retained ownership of them and can get them back when the lease expires. Overrall, UA has been giving up a number of slots since they took over the routes to LHR 15 years ago. UA ended all flying within Europe and thus has been able to earn money by selling and leasing unused slots.

Recently (last few years), UA have sold 4x slots for LHR-NYC, 1x Delhi, 1x IAD, 1x ORD.

I believe in 2008 they are cutting back also on 1x LAX and even 1x SFO... so UA continues to shrink at LHR.

The recipients of the slots from UA have been sold to QF and BA, I know AC and Jet Airways leased some
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phlwok
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 11:41 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:24 am



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
who in *A is giving up their slot for them US?

I cannot find a quotable reference, but I recall reading it's a BMI slot.
 
AF022
Topic Author
Posts: 1829
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RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:48 am

Sorry to ask again, but did AF sell or give slots to DL? Did BMI sell or give slots to US?
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2209
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:48 am



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
There was a thread recently about Air France reducing the number of CDG/ORL-LHR flights from 11 to 8, presumably to operate LAX-LHR on AF.

Air France LHR flights are being reduced from 12 to 8 daily flights. (the capacity is not being reduced, as almost all of the flights are now on the A321.)
The 5 free slots: 3 to Delta. 1 to AF for LHR-LAX. 1 slot is unknown.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 3):
I believe in 2008 they are cutting back also on 1x LAX and even 1x SFO... so UA continues to shrink at LHR.

UA has only 1x LAX. UA is cutting the LAX-LHR route completely? Is there a source for this? I would not be surprised, given the competition and UA's need for aircraft elsewhere.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:06 am



Quoting AF022 (Reply 5):
Sorry to ask again, but did AF sell or give slots to DL? Did BMI sell or give slots to US?

I assume that most likely they are leased. DL and US are probably paying an annual fee to be allowed to use those slots. But they could have been sold or given. I just presume that they were leased.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
BCA2005
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:56 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:13 am



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 6):
Air France LHR flights are being reduced from 12 to 8 daily flights. (the capacity is not being reduced, as almost all of the flights are now on the A321.)
The 5 free slots: 3 to Delta. 1 to AF for LHR-LAX. 1 slot is unknown.

Reduction from 12 daily to 8 daily, frees 4 slot pairs, not 5!
 
unitednrt
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:43 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:53 am



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 6):

United will not discontinue Los Angeles - London Heathrow. No frequency reductions have been planned and reallocation of capacity will not take place.
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vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:27 pm



Quoting AF022 (Reply 5):
Sorry to ask again, but did AF sell or give slots to DL?

As I understand it EU regulations do not allow the straight sale of slots at LHR or anywhere else in the EU. Hence you will often see reference to a 'grey market' in slots.

However, as I understand it EU 'non-sale' regulations do not forbid the transfer of slots primarily for money provided some other deal is part of the regulation. So, for example if airline A accepts slots from airline B, arranges for a code share with airline B on some of its flights and gives airline B a sum of money then everything is OK.

However since the whole area is 'grey' it is most unlikely that either airline A or airline B is going to publicly reveal details of the arrangement's details.

But I think you can be reasonably sure that no airline is going to unconditionally give slots at an airport like LHR to any other airline except when, like AF-KL or LH-LX, they are the next best thing to being a single airline and group management decide that such a transfer is in the best interests of the group.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5397
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:38 pm



Quoting AF022 (Reply 5):
Sorry to ask again, but did AF sell or give slots to DL? Did BMI sell or give slots to US?

I understood from the pressers that AF contributed the slots to the joint transatlantic venture they have formed with Delta; I don't believe that the manner or amount of their compensation was made public.
 
UAL777UK
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Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:58 pm



Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 3):
1x SFO... so UA continues to shrink at LHR.

Unless you can provide a source I cannot believe that for one minute. SFO-LHR has been one of UA's best performing routes for years, its no coincidence that it goes double daily in summer, the second aircraft being a 747.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5279
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:03 pm



Quoting AF022 (Thread starter):
Did these new US carriers pay their partners for these slots, or were they given away in order to strengthen the alliance?

KL gave NW three of their slots, and since NW and KL split revenue accross the atlantic 50/50 then it works out better for them flying fokker's into LHR from the smaller cities in the Netherlands.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:16 pm



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 13):
KL gave NW three of their slots

Although you do make a point if I was KL I would not 'give' NW the slots, I would lend them - they are extremely valuable.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: LHR Slot Swapping

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:20 pm



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 6):
UA has only 1x LAX. UA is cutting the LAX-LHR route completely? Is there a source for this? I would not be surprised, given the competition and UA's need for aircraft elsewhere.

UA has added a seasonal LAX-LHR flight during the summer in previous years. So it is double daily at times.
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