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karan69
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India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:03 am

From the airliners-india forums, it appears there has finally been a break through

http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/...c.php?t=2998&mforum=airlinersindia

-Courtsey Karatecatman

INDIA HONG-KONG SIGN REVISED BILATERAL AIR SERVICES AGREEMENT

Quote:
As per the new agreement, 27 new services for each side will be possible on the Indian Hong Kong route. While the Indian side can operate these 27 services from any point in India, the Hong Kong carriers can operate 10 services to Delhi, 6 services to Mumbai and 11 services altogether to Bangalore, Chennai and Calcutta. Chennai was added as a new point of call during these talks for the Hong Kong side.

An agreement was also reached on the exercise of fifth freedom beyond traffic rights. Out of the 27 services, the carriers of India will be able to operate 14 services to West Coast North America including the cities of Los Angeles, San Francisco and Vancouver. Reciprocally, the Hong Kong carrier can exercise beyond fifth freedom rights through India on 14 services to Europe excluding UK.

What are the additional services expected from HKG i am sure CX will jump on all available before Oasis HKG can even find the aircrafts needed to operate the India routes.

DEL should go double daily to 14

BOM should go 6x non-stop to HKG or daily on BOM-BKK-HKG [they did operate it during open skies last year so they do have rights , they do not have additional rights to DXB though]

So for BOM either 4 current + 6 non-stop OR Current route daily + 3 non-stop

BLR should go 4 x weekly

MAA and CCU should get 3x each

Karan
 
cricket
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:21 am



Quoting Karan69 (Thread starter):
DEL should go double daily to 14

BOM should go 6x non-stop to HKG or daily on BOM-BKK-HKG [they did operate it during open skies last year so they do have rights , they do not have additional rights to DXB though]

So for BOM either 4 current + 6 non-stop OR Current route daily + 3 non-stop

BLR should go 4 x weekly

MAA and CCU should get 3x each

That is quite an increase for DEL from 4x weekly - hopefully CX will now have a flight other than the 0700 departure from DEL (which means no sleep at all) to something between 2300-0100 (better than no sleep at all). The HKG-DEL leg is actually well timed!

However, the ASA does not talk seat quotas - will we see 773's or still 333's into DEL. BOM gets the 773, and CX has added some new A333's into their regional fleet.
been there, flown that
 
cloudyapple
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:37 am



Quoting Karan69 (Thread starter):
What are the additional services expected from HKG i am sure CX will jump on all available before Oasis HKG can even find the aircrafts needed to operate the India routes.

From our side I expect Cathay to grab most with the bits and pieces leftover for Bauhinia and Shuttle. Hence the rumour of A330s joining their fleets in 2008. Oasis isn't even in the picture with them struggling to get enough aeroplanes for their planned new routes.

From the Indian side, west coast services has been long sought after by Air India. Expect major changes in their route structure once they have figured out what aircraft they can spare to fly to the US. Expect to see both Jet Airways and Kingfisher in Hong Kong within the next year. Jet from Delhi and Mumbai, Kingfisher from Mumbai. We may see them here as soon as S08.
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bkkair
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:58 am

Even more intriguing from the same press release....

An agreement was also reached on the exercise of fifth freedom beyond traffic rights.

Out of the 27 services, the carriers of India will be able to operate 14 services to West Coast North America including the cities of Los Angeles, San Francisco and Vancouver.

Reciprocally, the Hong Kong carrier can exercise beyond fifth freedom rights through India on 14 services to Europe excluding UK.
 
mk777
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:43 pm



Quoting Bkkair (Reply 3):
the carriers of India will be able to operate 14 services to West Coast North America including the cities of Los Angeles, San Francisco and Vancouver.

Well I am sure 9W is going to jump on this and should IMO operate BLR-HKG-SFO, DEL-HKG-YVR and BOM-HKG-LAX, though the indian city pairings can flip around. Now all 9W needs are more A332's and B77W's  Smile
come fly with me
 
abrelosojos
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:46 pm

The Indians have managed to get a really good bi-lateral, and I know one man in London tonight has a big smile on his face  Smile.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:48 pm



Quoting Bkkair (Reply 3):
Even more intriguing from the same press release....

An agreement was also reached on the exercise of fifth freedom beyond traffic rights.

Out of the 27 services, the carriers of India will be able to operate 14 services to West Coast North America including the cities of Los Angeles, San Francisco and Vancouver.

Reciprocally, the Hong Kong carrier can exercise beyond fifth freedom rights through India on 14 services to Europe excluding UK.

Fifth freedom to the west coast has always been expected to be an important component of any deal. The last (few) rounds of talk all broke down because the HK Government refused the Indian side's request for fifth freedom. Although we now have beyond rights to Europe in exchange for the Indian side's fifth freedom to the US, it's not exactly a fair deal. The money is all in the UK-India traffic which is excluded from the deal

The good thing about this is that it will allow Cathay to start direct services from Delhi and Bombay which will be timed feed their transpacs.
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cricket
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:07 pm



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 6):
The good thing about this is that it will allow Cathay to start direct services from Delhi and Bombay which will be timed feed their transpacs.

It should do well then. However, I doubt Kingfisher will even get a chance to jump onto this bandwagon, I presume with 14 fifth-freedom flight rights to the US, 9W and AI will take seven apiece. However, with HK trying to increase tourism, I expect at least one terminator flight from 9W into Hong Kong if they can figure out a promotional deal with Hong Kong Disneyland or something. And once Indians figure out that it is Hong Kong that has the sweetest electronics deals in Asia and that Hong Kong is Asia's urban party capital (Did I mention that I absolutely love HK and not just the airport) I should hope for more O&D traffic...
been there, flown that
 
buck3y3nut
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:57 pm



Quoting Mk777 (Reply 4):

9W can also time these flights to use HKG as a scissor hub just like BRU. Then the city pairings will just be phenomenal. Looks like 9W will be a major powerhouse in the near future when it comes to international travel to/from India. I'm really happy to see the progress that 9W has made.
 
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legacyins
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:03 pm

If 9W does not get they PVG-SFO route, it is likely they will route it through HKG. I would rather they start the PVG-SFO route to give UA a run for their money. They will offer a far superior product compared to UA. SFO-HKG is already served by four daily 744.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:13 pm

Can I just add Delhi/Bombay-Hong Kong-West Coast is a potential A380 route if the range issue is sorted.
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LAXDESI
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:19 pm



Quoting Karan69 (Thread starter):
What are the additional services expected from HKG i am sure CX will jump on all available before Oasis HKG can even find the aircrafts needed to operate the India routes.

DEL should go double daily to 14

BOM should go 6x non-stop to HKG or daily on BOM-BKK-HKG [they did operate it during open skies last year so they do have rights , they do not have additional rights to DXB though]

So for BOM either 4 current + 6 non-stop OR Current route daily + 3 non-stop

BLR should go 4 x weekly

MAA and CCU should get 3x each

It will be better if CX offered the additional 6 services from BOM as non-stop. As there are 11 additional frequencies to BLR/CCU/MAA, perhaps BLR will get five frequencies and the other two three each.

I hope Jet corners all of the 14 services to NA west coast, with flights conveniently timed from BOM/DEL/BLR/MAA/CCU.
 
ag92
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:22 pm

Now, if they could only do that with SIN

Thats a good step for both India and Hong Kong. Now lets worry about the capacity problems being faced at Delhi at the peak periods (could someone shed some light on the capacity of Del daily)

Was UK exempted because getting slots at LHR is impossible or does AI not want a lot of competition. Sorry for my ignorance.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:23 pm

I am sure AI will look to capture some of the additional services from BOM/DEL timed to UA/AC flights from NA. It is highly unlikely that it will look into services from MAA/BLR.
 
blrsea
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:49 pm



Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 11):
As there are 11 additional frequencies to BLR/CCU/MAA, perhaps BLR will get five frequencies and the other two three each.

I too think the same. Since AI/9W don't have BLR on their radar yet, if CX starts BLR-HKG-SFO, they will have a winner on their hands.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:55 pm



Quoting Cricket (Reply 7):
And once Indians figure out that it is Hong Kong that has the sweetest electronics deals

= I would disagree. Perhps circa mid-1990s, but now?

Quoting Buck3y3nut (Reply 8):
9W can also time these flights to use HKG as a scissor hub just like BRU. Then the city pairings will just be phenomenal. Looks like 9W will be a major powerhouse in the near future when it comes to international travel to/from India. I'm really happy to see the progress that 9W has made.

= Given the limited availability for FFT, I don't think HKG will mirror BRU.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 6):
it's not exactly a fair deal. The money is all in the UK-India traffic which is excluded from the deal

= I would disagree. It would have been unfair IF the Indian side got unlimited access to US/Canada beyond HKG. The 14 limit ensures that any Indian airline cannot have the scissor hub based connectivity they looked for.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:57 pm



Quoting Blrsea (Reply 14):
Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 11):
As there are 11 additional frequencies to BLR/CCU/MAA, perhaps BLR will get five frequencies and the other two three each.

I too think the same. Since AI/9W don't have BLR on their radar yet, if CX starts BLR-HKG-SFO, they will have a winner on their hands.

On the other hand, CX (and Jet) could choose to offer a daily from BLR with onward connection to SFO. The remaining four services could go to MAA(CX) or CCU(Jet).
 
behramjee
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:02 pm

What will happen is probably as follows :

for 11 weekly flights to southern India, CX will fly daily to BLR and 4 weekly to MAA as CX knows how high yielding BLR can be for onward traffic via HKG bound for LAX/SFO/Japan and mainland China. I have never heard of CX being interested in CCU. FYI, I have interned at CX from 2002-04.

BOM will be increased from 4 to 10 weekly with the additional 6 weekly flights being flown nonstop from HKG. I would expect CX to compete aggressively against ANA and AI for the J class market between Tokyo and BOM by offering a same plane service NRT-HKG-BOM-HKG-NRT.

As for DEL, I dont expect CX to go double daily into the city but will not be surprised at all if Oasis Hong Kong Airlines takes up some of the HKG-DEL allocations to feed their YVR and US West Coast flights.

For CX to order 8 more A 333s, they obviously knew that more flying rights to India were going to be given to them soon.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:31 pm



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 17):
for 11 weekly flights to southern India, CX will fly daily to BLR and 4 weekly to MAA as CX knows how high yielding BLR can be for onward traffic via HKG bound for LAX/SFO/Japan and mainland China.

I agree.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 17):
BOM will be increased from 4 to 10 weekly with the additional 6 weekly flights being flown nonstop from HKG. I would expect CX to compete aggressively against ANA and AI for the J class market between Tokyo and BOM by offering a same plane service NRT-HKG-BOM-HKG-NRT.

Maybe CX will offer a daily non-stop from BOM by reducing the frequency on BOM-BKK-HKG to 3x week.

Looks like CX could offer the following services:
BOM-HKG Daily
BOM-BKK-HKG 3x week

BLR-HKG Daily
MAA-HKG 4x week

DEL-HKG Daily and

DEL-DAC-HKG Daily(is that possible under the bilateral?)
 
abrelosojos
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:41 pm



Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):
DEL-DAC-HKG Daily(is that possible under the bilateral?)

= When you are competing with milk run favorite AI, such bizarre routings make sense ... when competing against 9W, an airline like CX will never have such an absurd routing. But then again, in airlines, anything absurd is possible.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:02 pm



Quoting Ag92 (Reply 12):
Was UK exempted because getting slots at LHR is impossible or does AI not want a lot of competition.

Because this has the most money making potential of all the european routes and no surprise the Indians are keep it to themselves.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 15):


Quoting Cricket,reply=7:

And once Indians figure out that it is Hong Kong that has the sweetest electronics deals

= I would disagree. Perhps circa mid-1990s, but now?

We aren't the cheapest but we are close to. What we have are all the LATEST gadgets and we have them as soon as they are available from the manufacturers. We have a lot of choice for shoppers from the cheapest to the most expensive.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 15):
Given the limited availability for FFT, I don't think HKG will mirror BRU.

There has been rumours all around of Jet Airways joining oneWorld. It makes sense for them to hub here if it's true. Not only can they run a scissor hub here, they get feed from the huge Cathay and Dragon networks too.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 15):
= I would disagree. It would have been unfair IF the Indian side got unlimited access to US/Canada beyond HKG. The 14 limit ensures that any Indian airline cannot have the scissor hub based connectivity they looked for.

Think about the money making potentials between the transpacs and the european onwards - they are not equal. The transpacs are for any destinations while the European onwards exclude the most lucrative destinations in the UK.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 17):
I have never heard of CX being interested in CCU.

Route planning is hardly a publicly discussed matter.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 17):
Oasis Hong Kong Airlines takes up some of the HKG-DEL allocations

I doubt that. They are having problems sourcing enough aeroplanes.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):
Maybe CX will ... reducing the frequency on BOM-BKK-HKG to 3x week.

That will NEVER happen. The Bangkok fifth freedom makes more money than the direct services.
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LAXDESI
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:08 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 19):
Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):
DEL-DAC-HKG Daily(is that possible under the bilateral?)

= When you are competing with milk run favorite AI, such bizarre routings make sense ... when competing against 9W, an airline like CX will never have such an absurd routing. But then again, in airlines, anything absurd is possible.

You have a point. I wonder if CX will try to corner the frequencies by offering a double daily from DEL?

Does anyone know if the bilaterals are based on number of seats or frequencies or a combination of both?
 
LAXDESI
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:15 pm



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 20):
Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):
Maybe CX will ... reducing the frequency on BOM-BKK-HKG to 3x week.

That will NEVER happen. The Bangkok fifth freedom makes more money than the direct services.

In that case, does the new bilateral allow them to increase the HKG-BKK-BOM service? If yes, would HKG-BKK-DEL be equally profitable?
 
cloudyapple
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:31 pm



Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 21):
You have a point. I wonder if CX will try to corner the frequencies by offering a double daily from DEL?

Before they started the second San Francisco, one of the pre-condition was to have direct Indian flights to feed it. Ended up they couldn't wait for the Indian bilateral and went ahead anyway.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 22):
In that case, does the new bilateral allow them to increase the HKG-BKK-BOM service? If yes, would HKG-BKK-DEL be equally profitable?

I wouldn't know honestly. But feeding the transpacs with direct services is more important when you have limited rights.
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jlk
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:47 pm

9W has always been saying they are planning a BOM-PVG-SFO flight even before the BRU hub was started. But suddenly yesterday I saw an article where 9W's regional president for USA/Canada stated that they would potentially start BOM-HKG-SFO or a BOM-PVG-SFO route by Feb 08. Since the India-HKG bilaterals did not allow 5th, I was wondering about the logic behind the BOM-HKG-SFO.

But it all makes sense now. I'm sure these guys knew this was coming. I don't think HKG will get 9W much sooner than PVG. I hope all 14 goes to 9W, but know GOI, 7 would be reserved for AI even if they don't utilize it  Smile

http://indiapost.com/article/travel/1638

I'm sure CX would launch MAA and BLR as soon as possible. They would give SQ a run for their money on these routes.

MAA/BLR - HKG - SFO should be the fastest route if the connections are timed correctly unlike SQ.
 
blrBird
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:18 pm

Finally! the long awaited ASA has come through.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 2):
From our side I expect Cathay to grab most with the bits and pieces leftover for Bauhinia and Shuttle.

Won't KA fight for some of the rights! They have been after HKG-BLR from the time (2001/2002?) BLR was added as point of call for HKG but could not start as there were no more freq's left after CX used all.

Quoting Buck3y3nut (Reply 8):
9W can also time these flights to use HKG as a scissor hub just like BRU.

IMO this won't happen.

Quoting Ag92 (Reply 12):
Now, if they could only do that with SIN

India already has better bilateral with SIN compared to HKG.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 14):
if CX starts BLR-HKG-SFO,

BLR - not sure about it being on CX 'cause KA is interested too but would love to see CX
MAA - will be CX (lot of cargo potential) , will this change existing cargo only service?
CCU - KA might take this one, they can use A320/A321 or add CCU tag on to HKG-DAC service.

Quoting Karan69 (Thread starter):
11 services altogether to Bangalore, Chennai and Calcutta.

It is going to be interesting to see how the split in services is going to happen...if any carrier applies for CCU then
CCU - 3xW
BLR - 4xW
MAA - 4xW
else
BLR - 6xW
MAA - 5xW
from star dust....
 
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lightsaber
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:28 am



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 6):
The money is all in the UK-India traffic which is excluded from the deal

Not all, but I'd agree that the UK was too much to give up.

Quoting Buck3y3nut (Reply 8):
9W can also time these flights to use HKG as a scissor hub just like BRU.

That would be a *very* smart move by 9W.  spin 

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 15):
The 14 limit ensures that any Indian airline cannot have the scissor hub based connectivity they looked for.

I would disagree. Basically, IT will be too late to the table to take advantage. But with 14 flights plus 14 more that are not part of the scissor, there are enough for a minor scissor hub. Let's say 9W is allowed 8 flights per day of which only 4 are the pass through flights. If they can time it so that there are two 'banks' in HKG, each with 4 arriving flights from India and 2 from the US/Vancouver. (Say BOM, DEL, MAA, and CCU ariving and LAX and SFO). Two planes continue on (we'll be lazy and say back to LAX/SFO), with four flights back to India.

I think HKG can easily 'absorb' two flights per day in O&D or transfer to Asia (mostly China). This gives great connectivity to India and passable to North America.

Quoting Jlk (Reply 24):
But suddenly yesterday I saw an article where 9W's regional president for USA/Canada stated that they would potentially start BOM-HKG-SFO or a BOM-PVG-SFO route by Feb 08.

Leaked a little early, eh?  Wink

Good news. Now when will India and Korea update their bilateral.  spin 

Does anyone have a link to the China-India bilateral. The WSJ had an article on how underserved thsoe markets currently are. Talk about an opportunity for EK/IT.  Wink

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LAXDESI
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:42 am

The 27 new services--assuming 250 seats per service--add an impressive 700,000 seats per year to India-HKG capacity.

Since the Indian carriers can utilize their rights from any point in India, it would make a lot of sense for them to offer services from cities like HYD, AMD, and ATQ that CX can not fly to. AI could team up with UA to offer one-stop connections to US west coast via HKG from these cities.
 
atmx2000
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:45 am



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 6):
Fifth freedom to the west coast has always been expected to be an important component of any deal. The last (few) rounds of talk all broke down because the HK Government refused the Indian side's request for fifth freedom. Although we now have beyond rights to Europe in exchange for the Indian side's fifth freedom to the US, it's not exactly a fair deal. The money is all in the UK-India traffic which is excluded from the deal

It is a perfectly fair deal. The reason is that the equivalent of fifth freedom rights in country B for airlines from country A going onward to C is not fifth freedom rights in country A for B's airlines going to country D. The equivalent is sixth freedom rights for airlines from country B taking passengers from country A to country C. The India-US market is huge and growing, and Hong Kong wants a piece of it. They aren't going to get more frequencies from India that would allow them to carry 6th freedom traffic between the India and US/Canada unless Indian airlines get fifth freedom rights that would give them access to the entire India-HKG-US/Canada market.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 20):
Because this has the most money making potential of all the european routes and no surprise the Indians are keep it to themselves.



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 20):
Think about the money making potentials between the transpacs and the european onwards - they are not equal. The transpacs are for any destinations while the European onwards exclude the most lucrative destinations in the UK.

Limiting access to the UK from India is fair because few people are going to travel via India from Hong Kong to the UK given the availability of numerous direct flights and other routings, whereas there is quite a bit of India-UK traffic that Hong Kong airlines could easily leach.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:45 am

In the official release is the following statement...
"Indian carriers are already looking at serving New Zealand through code share over Hong Kong with Air New Zealand"

Assume this means a code share with one or both AI and NZ aircraft to and from AKL via HKG to a variety of Indian cities??
 
planemanofnz
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:51 am



Quoting Bkkair (Reply 3):
the Hong Kong carrier can exercise beyond fifth freedom rights through India on 14 services to Europe excluding UK.

Ok, what about CX flying HKG-DEL/BOM-DUB?
 
Blr2Syr
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:57 am

I bet

Daily BLR, BOM, DEL by CA
Maybe 4x Chennai, 4x HYD

They might keep their other rights or swap them for Double daily to BOM .

It sure shall be more options ...

 Smile
 
LAXDESI
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:29 am



Quoting Blr2Syr (Reply 31):
Daily BLR, BOM, DEL by CA
Maybe 4x Chennai, 4x HYD

HYD is not available to HKG carriers. However, Indian carriers can fly from any Indian city to HKG.
 
behramjee
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RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:56 am

If there was ever an award to given for the most patient airline, then Cathay Pacific would be a strong contender for that award. Since 2000, CX has been lobbying extensively to the Indian Govt to let them increase their presence in India with more online flights but it all fell to deaf ears. Midway, a break through was achieved and 4 weekly flights to DEL were allowed but CX wanted access to BLR, MAA and daily flights to BOM. Fearing that their market share would further erode, AI was not too keen to allow CX more penetration into the country. Now that CX is allowed to fly to India in a more liberal, wide spread manner, expect the following to take place by 2009 :

BOM - increased to 10 weekly i.e. 4 weekly HKG-BKK-BOM-DXB + 6 weekly nonstop flights to HKG. To compete aggresively against ANA and AI for high yielding business class traffic, CX should seriously contemplate launching a 6 weekly SAME PLANE SERVICE using a 2 class A 333 on the NRT-HKG-BOM-HKG-NRT route which has the new business class seat features on board.

This can be made possible in the following manner :

CX 521 Dep NRT 1700 Arr HKG 2050 A333
CX 000 Dep HKG 2230 Arr BOM 0200+1 A333

CX 000 Dep BOM 0530 Arr HKG 1430 A333
CX 508 Dep HKG 1610 Arr NRT 2125 A333

***These above mentioned flight timings allow excellent 2 hour connections in both directions with CX's YVR, LAX & SFO bound flights from HKG thus providing useful feeder traffic.

DEL - increased from 4 to daily initially and then possibly to 10 weekly...total 14 allowed.

BLR - daily flights will be launched with an A 333 / B 772 initially as CX is fully aware what form of high yielding feeder traffic BLR can supply via HKG to Japan, China, SFO & LAX.

MAA - 4 weekly nonstop flights max.

As far as the Indian side is concerned, one fully expects 9W and KF to use 7 frequencies each respectively to launch daily flights from BOM nonstop to HKG in the future using an A 332. However, one does not for see any Indian carrier utilizing the 5th freedom options available to them via HKG to SFO/LAX in the short term UNLESS 9W re-routes its proposed daily B 773ER flight from BOM-PVG-SFO to BOM-HKG-SFO!

9W & KF should also look at the possibility of flying nonstop daily from BLR to HKG using an A 332 because if either one can sign a SPA with CX out of HKG for onward flights to China, Japan, MNL, SGN and ICN, the route does have money making potential for it to exploit. As it is 9W has a small scale hub in BLR with flights to MAA, HYD, CCU, COK & TRV which can provide value able feeder traffic to HKG and beyond. If 9W does indeed opt to fly BOM-HKG-SFO and BLR-HKG nonstop, then it can send pax from SFO via HKG to both BLR & BOM!
 
karan69
Topic Author
Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:53 am



Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):
DEL-DAC-HKG Daily(is that possible under the bilateral?)

They rather do 7x weekly terminator and an additional 7x HKG-DEL-Europe [MXP/MAD] given that AZ is gonna shut the route down soon.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 33):
BOM - increased to 10 weekly i.e. 4 weekly HKG-BKK-BOM-DXB + 6 weekly nonstop flights to HKG

 checkmark  Altough the timings would offer excellent onward connections to America they would be terrible for O&D and SE Asian connections from a biz point of view.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 33):
As far as the Indian side is concerned, one fully expects 9W and KF to use 7 frequencies each respectively to launch daily flights from BOM nonstop to HKG in the future using an A 332

Not available--BOM got only 6 additional frequencies , i would assume AI would make their 5x weekly daily and the remaining 4x could go to 9W.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 33):
9W & KF should also look at the possibility of flying nonstop daily from BLR to HKG using an A 332 because if either one can sign a SPA with CX out of HKG

Since IT is looking to make BLR its international operations hub i would assume they would grab the BLR allotments.

Dont forget DN who could launch LCC services with the remaining 4x entitlements

Karan
 
cricket
Posts: 2115
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:23 pm

RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:45 am

But I have one complaint about CX and their India flights - the DEL flight always get the god-darn last gate at CLK - 69 I think it was and it took us forever to get there. I was told that the India flights always get the end gates!!!
been there, flown that
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:14 pm



Quoting Cricket (Reply 35):
But I have one complaint about CX and their India flights - the DEL flight always get the god-darn last gate at CLK - 69 I think it was and it took us forever to get there. I was told that the India flights always get the end gates!!!

It's because LAX, SFO, YYZ are all departing from the 60s  Wink
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
cricket
Posts: 2115
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:23 pm

RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:26 pm



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 36):
It's because LAX, SFO, YYZ are all departing from the 60s Wink

Well, it is a pain if you're slightly tipsy from dinner and drinks at the restaurants pre-immigration and then discover you'll have to walk quite a few kilometers.. the only bright side is that you cross nearly every smoking room in the place...
been there, flown that
 
behramjee
Posts: 5118
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:48 pm



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 34):
Not available--BOM got only 6 additional frequencies , i would assume AI would make their 5x weekly daily and the remaining 4x could go to 9W.

I think you misunderstood the press release. It says 6 additional HKG-BOM only for HKG based airlines like CX where as the 27 new flights allocated for Indian carriers supposedly have no restriction as to from where they fly from and how many times a week...can someone else confirm this?
 
worldrider
Posts: 216
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:26 am

RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:54 pm



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 34):
Since IT is looking to make BLR its international operations hub i would assume they would grab the BLR allotments.

Dont forget DN who could launch LCC services with the remaining 4x entitlements

IT could start flights from BOM to SFO or YVR..using that route? do i ignore something? since they are starting international flghts next year with brand new widebodies..
 
LAXDESI
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:07 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Thread starter):
While the Indian side can operate these 27 services from any point in India, the Hong Kong carriers can operate 10 services to Delhi, 6 services to Mumbai and 11 services altogether to Bangalore, Chennai and Calcutta. Chennai was added as a new point of call during these talks for the Hong Kong side.

Seems like Indian carriers can offer the additional 27 services from any point in India.

If CX and Jet can work out a deal, then CX can offer services from
BOM,DEL,BLR,and MAA

and Jet can offer services from
BOM,HYD,AMD,CCU, and ATQ

all timed to CX's NA and NE Asia network.

[Edited 2007-12-20 09:10:00]
 
karan69
Topic Author
Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: India HKG Revised Bilateral Agreements

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:17 pm



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 38):
s the 27 new flights allocated for Indian carriers supposedly have no restriction as to from where they fly from and how many times a week...can someone else confirm this?

My bad, in that case what you said makes sense from the Indian side

Karan

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