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EWR Spotter
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Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 10:34 am

Everyone knows that there are horrible delays at EWR especially during peak hours. Do you think EWR should add another runway in addition to all of the other construction going on there now to try and ease travel delays?
 
iahcsr
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Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 10:56 am

Yes .... But just where would you put it? I don't see any space for it ... unless you put the turnpike underground.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
RWally
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 11:01 am

Yes, it would really help.
 
MAC_Veteran
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 11:12 am

It would be wonderful, but simply put. Where? Other than the site of that brewery to the west of the central terminal area could they possibly expand onto and that's if Pabst agrees to it along with respective cities of Elizabeth and Newark allowing overflights of their downtown area. A terminal area expansion could go in there (which would be exciting to contemplate..imagine a complete 'wraparound' terminal complex at Newark similar to what is being done at SFO?)..but short of possibly lengthening the existing runways, a new runway at EWR doesnt seem doable.

Regards
MAC
 
EWR Spotter
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 11:21 am

I know. That is the only problem there is not enough space. Space is a major problem at EWR. It is surrounded by stores, highways, factories, etc.
 
Guest

RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 11:35 am

Whats on the other side of the Turnpike? Isn't it sort of undeveloped land?
 
EWR Spotter
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 11:40 am

On the other side of the turnpike is an Ikea, some gaming zone, a Kid's World, a lot with tractor trailers I believe, and further up, the Jersey Gardens Mall.
 
desertjets
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 3:23 pm

You could just build a really long taxiway to Teterboro.  
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
iahcsr
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 3:35 pm

Someone on this forum once suggested that it was possible to put the turnpike underground and to build a runway over it. I hate to think just how many millions (or billions) of $$ that would cost.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
MAC_Veteran
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 3:40 pm



DesertJets wrote:
-------------------------------
You could just build a really long taxiway to Teterboro.

Hahahahaha! Now that's funny!  

I can imagine something like that. Driving down the Turnpike and seeing this huge concrete "roadway" going through the swamp and what I can only define as "blecch" to Teterboro, a huge concrete strip looking similar to what they use at the Kennedy Space Center Shuttle Launch facility, going for miles and miles. airplanes taxying on overpasses here and there, past neighborhoods and huge gas tanks. Imagine the view from the top of the Meadowlands seeing a line of planes on a taxyway like this? Then watching departures over Route 80 to the north scaring the hell out of everyone from Teaneck to the Palisades...sheesh, imagine all those cellphone addicted drivers on 80 swerving all over the place as a Continental 777 comes swooshing in over Rt 80 then! (LOL!) It's a very funny thought.

Regards
MAC
 
desertjets
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 3:59 pm

Though you figure in the time it would take to "drive" a plane the 10-12 miles to Teterboro they could actually take off at Newark.

You would think it would be easy to find a place to stick a slab of concrete 10,000' x 150' in the middle of the largest city in the US.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Pacific
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 10:43 pm

Teterboro struck me something. Since it has a 7000ft runway, why don't the NY authorities turn it into a proper domestic airport and get rid of ALL 737 traffic from EWR? The hobby pilots can switch to Linden! Is anything like this possible?
By the way NYC is jampacked with buildings, I doubt that a 4th runway is possible.
 
Skyteam
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 12:20 am

EWR needs a new runway very very very bad!!!!! But is their any room?

SKYTEAM
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 2:24 am

Newark cannot accomodate another runway. There is
no space unless the raze the Ikea/Toys R US Elizabeth
Seaport area and build it there with overpasses on
the NJ TPKE but this isn't likely.

 
philb
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 2:43 am

It would be a great idea if there was somewhere to put it, as others have said.

But there's another snag. Unless you paralleled the current runways, you are going to cause a tremendous amount of chaos in the rest of metro New York's air traffic.

Even if you go with the parallel solution (demolishing anything in the way) the problems you (may) have solved in the air are compounded on the ground as traffic tries to cross up to two runways between landings and take-offs.

The idea of moving all 737 and smaller traffic would just about destroy Continental's hub and the raison d'aitre for so many airlines having moved to EWR in recent years.
 
fanofjets
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:20 am

Another problem is the noise generated by the existing traffic into and out of EWR - landing and take-off patters are constantly being modified because of pressure in the many growing (and politically active) communities in the NYC metro area to not allow planes to overfly thier space. Even if it were possible to add another runway, the problem of noise complaints would need to be addressed.
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
Guest

RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:41 am

Why can't they make Teterboro a proper full service domestic airport? I don't know Jersey well (I'm a Westchesterian myself), but where is Teterboro in relation to EWR and Manhattan. Farther west no? Something will have to happen to LGA and EWR in the future, just imagine 50 years from now. This region is going to royally screwed.
 
desertjets
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:51 am

Teterboro is about 10-12 miles north of EWR right by beautiful Meadowlands stadium. The problem with TEB is that it is the primary general aviation airport for the region, also the closest to Manhattan too. And if commercial traffic were to move in their people would complain like they do by Islip and Westchester Co.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Critter_592
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 6:39 am

Just exactly how crowded is EWR? How many takeoffs/landings do they experience in a day?
 
USAirways737
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 6:45 am

What about a Greater New York City Area Airport in the water like Osaka? Would that be possible?
 
Louis
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 7:09 am

EWR handles about 1200 take-offs and landings a day. I think the best solution would be to move or add new flights to JFK. JFK is currently under capacity and does have room to expand. They can always reclaim some land in Jamaca Bay.
 
Critter_592
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 7:14 am

I agree Louis, JFK seems like they do need a few more aircraft. I think that could be the answer to EWR's problems.
 
MAC_Veteran
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:38 pm

You could do that, probably west of the Earle Naval Depot area between the Sandy Hook area and Raritan River inlet area. There would be space to build quite a massive airport "Osaka style" out in that water. Highway access to the Garden State and Turnpike wouldnt be too bad. However, the environmental concerns though would probably nuke this idea early in the process let alone the reaction from area residents. You have all sorts of issues that get raised everytime one of these ideas comes up. Floyd Bennett Field near JFK was a military facility at one time and could be used, but I believe some of it's property has been sold for real estate development. I think there is a small USCG station still there.

MAC

USAirways737 wrote:
-------------------------------
What about a Greater New York City Area Airport in the water like Osaka? Would that be possible?
 
Louis
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:53 am

Jamaica Bay

Mon Oct 02, 2000 2:29 pm

Is Jamaica Bay still a bird refuge? I thought the bird refuge was in the Kings County section. Would it cause much of a stink if they reclaimed some of it to expand JFK?
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Jamaica Bay

Mon Oct 02, 2000 10:39 pm

Dear Louis,

JFK could definitely use a third parallel 14-32 runway built in Jamaica Bay, say a 9,000 footer suitable for landings to relieve the bigger 14-32 south of the Delta terminal. Whether Jamaica Bay is still a bird sanctuary or not, though, yes there would be a *huge* stink by environmentalists in green-minded New York State.

Given the size of the bay, it seems to me that the world would not stop spinning if a few hundred acres were reclaimed for a new JFK runway. But try telling the well-funded Sierra Club that. And the New York State courts would gladly tie the runway up for decades.

Jim K.
Washington, DC
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 11:28 pm

MAC_Vet, I would be one of those (un)lucky folks who would be under the flight path of Teterboro because I live in Bogota. Those Captains of Industry do have nice rides though.

The thing about JFK is that it is difficult to get to. I am surprised that in NYC, with the most comprehensive subway/commuter rail in the US (if not the world) does not have express rail access to any of the three major airports. If JFK was to be developed further with the focus of being the prime domestic, as well as international, gateway to the city, rail links must be set up to Long Island, NYC, Connecticut, and New Jersey to make the feasibility of that project worthwhile.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Tue Oct 03, 2000 12:32 am

Dear TexAirport,

The lack of subway access to LGA and JFK has always surprised me too. I live in DC, where Metrorail access to DCA is a real lifesaver during rush hour.

JFK is getting a dedicated rail line which will loop the terminals and hook up to lines in Bensonhurst and Jamaica. Should be done in a year or so; the abutments and bridges already tower among the terminals. But you'll still have to change trains *twice* to get to Manhattan. That's always puzzled me, especially with eight years of Get-Things-Done Guiliani as mayor.

You're right that good rail links out to Long Island, Westchester, CT, and Jersey would be a huge help to NYC airports.

Jim K.
Washington, DC
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
User avatar
STT757
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The Real Solution To NY Area Airport Delays Are

Tue Oct 03, 2000 4:56 am

High speed rail connections,linking forinstance the new Newark airport rail station being built on Amtrak's North East corridor with cities within a three hour radius.

Continental Airlines has indicated they're are coordinating with Amtrak a code sharing reltionship to link their flights with Amtrak's Acela regional and Acela commuter trains.This would allow for easy connections from places like Philadelphia,Baltimore and Hartford to Continental's hub at Newark airport via Amtrak's Northeast corridor which is connected to Newark Airport's terminals through the Monorail.

A traveler connecting on Continental via Newark would be better off (time-wise) taking a Amtrak Acela Regional from say Baltimore to EWR than to take a Continental Express ATR from BWI.

Continental can thus reduce their flights to places like Philadelphia,Baltimore and Hartford to one or two 737s to transfer passengers for peak hour European departures instead of four or five ERJs all day.All other travelers could use Amtrak's Acela trains.The link below brings you to Senator Frank Lautenberg's website dedicated to High speed corridor development,it includes current and proposed travel times betwen certain city pairs along the North East corridor.

http://lautenberg.senate.gov/highspeed/corridors/northeast.html

Through the new Newark airport link Continental can once again reach out to citys where it wasn't profitable or not worth the hassle of clogging EWR's runways more with flights to serve such as New Haven and New London Connecticut.Also NJ Transit plans to open up new service in the next ten years to Allentown and scranton PA,thus offering more opportunities for connecting traffic to the airport.NJ Transit in addition to their many in state rail lines also serves several Up State NY communities via their Pascack and Main Bergen Lines.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: The Real Solution To NY Area Airport Delays Are

Tue Oct 03, 2000 5:15 am

Dear STT757,

Lautenberg's website indicates Acela travel times of 3 hours New York-DC, 2.5 hours New York-Boston, and Washington-Boston times of 5.75 hours. If Acela ever does get going--last I knew it still was not running, contra Lautenberg's prediction--these times would indeed be very practical on the NY-DC and NY-BOS corridors. Air still definitely wins on DC-BOS.

With frustration over air delays mounting, Congress might well approve the $6 billion Lautenberg asks to upgrade track and electrical wiring to support Acela speeds. And with a stop at EWR and marketing agreement, Continental would be in the catbird seat. One wonders if DL and AA would call for spurs to JFK to compete!

Anyway, it seems to me time to think about some real money to make the train competitive with air in the Metroliner corridor. But Amtrak has to get the fool thing running, and the fares have to be competitive.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
philb
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Tue Oct 03, 2000 5:50 am

I've been away from the computer for most of the last 24 hours so I'd like to backtrack on one point.

The idea was raised about transferring flights to JFK.

Many European airlines have spent megabucks moving to EWR from JFK precisely because of items mentioned viz: slow connection times to Manhattan, poor hubbing through JFK, poor connections to La Guardia.

Continental were both far sighted and lucky when they got the PeoplExpress slots and took a gamble on staying and developing at the rather tatty, run down, wasteland that was EWR in the late 1980s.

As far as I'm concerned, its the nearest I ever want to come to NYC and I don't care for the other two airports much either, but the Newark that has developed since the renewal programme launched in 1992 is a credit to the Authority and NJ. But how the hell do we get more runway space....?
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Phil--possible EWR Logjam Breaker?

Tue Oct 03, 2000 6:06 am

Phil, one possible answer to the Eternal Question about runway capacity at Newark occurred to me recently.

What about demolishing some of the cargo apron space at the north end of the field and building a parallel 11-29? Lengthen the existing 11-29 200 feet to 7,000 feet, and build a parallel strip of the same length with its own circulation taxiway. Move the air cargo buildings up there to the Ikea etc property across the Turnpike, which would free the space up. Parallel 11-29s wouldn't solve the airspace-redesign problem but certainly would offer a jump in runway capacity, which would help.

Why the 200' extension to the existing 11-29 strip? Aviation week's recent piece on Newark indicated that RJ pilots who used to use 11-29 in ATRs, now ask for longer 4L-22R and tie up that 11,000' strip more. It seems to me that 6800', the same length as the main runway at DCA that RJ pilots use daily til the cows come home, should be plenty for RJs. So their rejection of Newark's similar strip mystifies me.

But if the strip is lengthened to a round number that matches many medium-sized airports' main strip, ATC would find it easier to tell RJ pilots to get lost and use 11-29. And 7,000 feet is easily usable by most narrowbodies.

Is this idea at all feasible?

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
philb
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RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Tue Oct 03, 2000 6:21 am

In theory, it solves the ground circulation problem, but what would happen to seps between the traffic on the parallel 11s and that on the parallel 4s?

Also, my charts, which may be a little dated, show traffic on the present 11/29 has to keep west of COL R-023 to avoid fouling traffic at Carnarsie. Could this still be achieved? Would it be necessary?

Every ATC sim I've seen of the area shows that intersection to be hell on earth and, watching as a pax in and out of Newark, particularly at night, there is always a great deal of activity in that quadrant.
 
User avatar
sammyk
Posts: 1564
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 1999 11:31 am

RE: Do You Think EWR Should Add Another Runway?

Tue Oct 03, 2000 7:42 am

Hey MAC, love your idea, the airport would be only 5 miles from home then!! As it is planes fly low over Sandy Hook...great fun to watch, even used to see the Concorde now and then.

Sammy

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