icanfly
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Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:45 am

I became a member of A-net only a few days ago, and this is my maiden post. First of all, I want to thank all of you A-netters for creating a truly wonderful site and for all your contributions, which I've been avidly reading over the years!

This is something I've wondered about for sometime. Why are there no scheduled non-stop flights between HNL and major European hubs, e.g. LHR, FRA, CDG? Great Circle mapper shows a wondrous flight path, over Greenland and northern Canada, just shy of the North Pole. GC distance of LHR-HNL is 6,290nm (11,647km) which is about the same as or shorter than other non-stop routes served by B744 or B777 aircraft today, e.g., FRA-EZE (6,197nm) on LH, SYD-SFO (6,445nm) on UA, BOM-EWR (6,784nm) on CO. So a LHR-HNL route would seem well within the range of BA's 744 aircraft.

Some past threads about HNL (none of seemed to have touched on this point) have said it's predominantly a leisure route and lacks premium traffic, but this alone cannot explain it as, e.g. BA flies to other leisure heavy routes, e.g. MCO and any number of Caribbean destinations. And surely there is some traffic between Hawaii and Europe sufficient to warrant say a 3x weekly service.

Presumably, the fact that no airlines operate this route suggests it wouldn't be commercially viable, but what I'm trying to understand is why. I'm hoping some of you can share your insights.
United: please start SYD-IAH!
 
richardw
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:49 am

How many sectors per week could be done from LGW to HNL compared to MCO ?
 
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legacyins
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:53 am

Long, thin and low yield. Also, Europeans tend to drift down to the Canary Islands, Mallorca ect... Why get on a 15 hr?? flight to get the same affect.

[Edited 2011-08-11 05:00:23]
 
peterjohns
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:58 am

There have been flights from FRA to HNL Nonstop.
However they were inaugural flights, one to the introduction of the 340-600, if I remember right.
In fact I even remember talking to the Pilot of that one...
It didn´t make much revenue though- as everyone on board was invited by Lufthansa. Press and other important people.
Hawaii isn´t a big holiday destination to many europeans. If LH would be able to make great profits on that route, I´m sure they would fly it.
 
jfk777
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:59 am

Quoting icanfly (Thread starter):
This is something I've wondered about for sometime. Why are there no scheduled non-stop flights between HNL and major European hubs, e.g. LHR, FRA, CDG? Great Circle mapper shows a wondrous flight path, over Greenland and northern Canada, just shy of the North Pole. GC distance of LHR-HNL is 6,290nm (11,647km) which is about the same as or shorter than other non-stop routes served by B744 or B777 aircraft today, e.g., FRA-EZE (6,197nm) on LH, SYD-SFO (6,445nm) on UA, BOM-EWR (6,784nm) on CO. So a LHR-HNL route would seem well within the range of BA's 744 aircraft.

All these flights have decent sized Business Class demand. Honolulu to Europe doesn't have that demand. It too far to make such a flight viable.
 
icanfly
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:15 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 3):
There have been flights from FRA to HNL Nonstop.

Thanks for sharing that!

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
All these flights have decent sized Business Class demand. Honolulu to Europe doesn't have that demand. It too far to make such a flight viable.

Agreed, yet NRT-HNL, ICN-HNL, HNL-PVG all seem perfectly viable for JL, NH, KA and MU with enough BC demand. It could be those are shorter routes, or tap into VFR demand for Hawaii's Asian communities. I think the driver is that LHR-HNL for example isn't a hub-hub in the same alliance, so it's reliant on O&D traffic only and there isn't enough of that. By comparison CO/UA believes IAH-AKL will be viable, but only with a B787 and because it connects two S.A hubs.
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777klm
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:16 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 2):
Long, thin and low yield

and well served by alliance partners
Home airport: AMS
Next flight: CNX - BKK
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:19 pm

There are plenty of destinations around the Mediterranean for European vacationers to go to. If they want to go some place more exotic then there are destinations such as Thailand, Malaysia, the Caribbean, and the Maldives. Hawaii is of course American and especially Honolulu (where a Euope-Hawaii flight would have to go) has lost much of its Hawaiian identity. And also there are plenty of connections available through the Mainland US or YVR.
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RWA380
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:21 pm

Maybe when there are enough 787's around and the economy gets better someone may try this. WA's LGW-ANC-HNL "Londoner" service was am abysmal failure.ANC being right along the circle mapper route, making it the quickest way between Europe and Hawaii still was traditionally empty between ANC & LGW. Love to see HA doing LON & FRA.
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:24 pm

Quoting icanfly (Reply 5):
Agreed, yet NRT-HNL, ICN-HNL, HNL-PVG all seem perfectly viable for JL, NH, KA and MU with enough BC demand. It could be those are shorter routes, or tap into VFR demand for Hawaii's Asian communities

Yes much shorter routes and much more demand. Lots of people from around London want to go to Orlando. Far fewer want to go to HNL. For those really keen to go all that way it makes sense to split the journey and see somewhere else on the way such as SFO / LAX / YVR
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FlyingHollander
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:24 pm

Also note that HA doesn't serve any destinations east of PHX. I would assume HA would add cities like ORD, NYC and IAD before any European destination.
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RWA380
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:32 pm

I also think HA will expand east coast or Asia further before tackling Europe still nice to dream.

On another note I think Balair did charter flights from Zurich via (YYC?) to HNL, that didn't last long either.
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icanfly
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:36 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8):
Maybe when there are enough 787's around and the economy gets better someone may try this.

Very true! It could be one of those routes which can only be contemplated by a 787.

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 7):
There are plenty of destinations around the Mediterranean for European vacationers to go to. If they want to go some place more exotic then there are destinations such as Thailand, Malaysia, the Caribbean, and the Maldives.

I agree that Hawaii would just be another vacation destination competing among many in Asia, the Caribbean etc for European tourism. However with a population of 1.4m and a $70-80bn economy it's not exactly in the same league as the tiny Caribbean islands or the Maldives.
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EDICHC
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:38 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 3):
Hawaii isn´t a big holiday destination to many europeans.

For many Europeans that do head for Hawaii it is often only a part of a two or even 3 centre vacation taking in the likes of L.A. and/or Vegas so no need for direct service.
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icanfly
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:44 pm

Just a question. If there isn't enough demand on HNL, what are the drivers which make LHR-MRU, CDG-MRU, ORY-RUN successful? After all MRU and RUN are also small islands with limited business traffic, mostly tourism. Also SYD-RUN on Air Austral (though granted it connects to CDG, but presumably the SYD leg still needs to be viable).

[Edited 2011-08-11 05:54:42]
United: please start SYD-IAH!
 
DullesFlyer
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:49 pm

 
icanfly
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:52 pm

Quoting DullesFlyer (Reply 15):
VS is considering a HNL route with their 787's

Thanks for that update! So much for the route being a fantasy/lost cause! It seems the 787 is what may finally make this route become reality.
United: please start SYD-IAH!
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:54 pm

Quoting icanfly (Reply 14):
If there isn't enough demand on HNL, what are the drivers which make LHR-MRU, CDG-MRU, ORY-RUN successful? After MRU and RUN are also small islands with limited business traffic, mostly tourism. Also SYD-RUN on Air Austral (though granted it connects to CDG, but presumably the SYD leg still needs to be viable).

There's a trade between premium traffic and distance...the farther you go, the more premium traffic you need to make the route viable. HNL is, at minimum, another 1000nm than any of the other legs you mention. That extra distance may represent the breaking point. And SYD is a major business destination quite a part from its tourist trade.

Also, I suspect MRU/RUN have reasonable numbers of non-tourist/non-business traffic (European immigrants visiting home) which is much less likely with HNL.

Tom.
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:20 pm

I have never heard a European mention having been to Hawaii, however I hear countless people about their vacations to Thailand, Malaysia, Florida, the Caribbean, Brazil, Mexico and several more. Also when you walk past travel agencies you never see any advertisements for vacations to Hawaii. Most of course are for the Med the others for the destinations mentioned above.
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aaexecplat
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:26 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 18):
I have never heard a European mention having been to Hawaii, however I hear countless people about their vacations to Thailand, Malaysia, Florida, the Caribbean, Brazil, Mexico and several more. Also when you walk past travel agencies you never see any advertisements for vacations to Hawaii. Most of course are for the Med the others for the destinations mentioned above.

Lots of Europeans going to Hawaii these days. Just got back a few weeks ago and saw several French and German tourists.
 
DullesFlyer
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 18):
I have never heard a European mention having been to Hawaii

I am sure fewer would go there given the distance, but they do in fact go. Hawaii is a huge U.S. west coast and Asian vacation destination, just as the Caribbean is a huge vacation destination where I am on the East coast.
 
richcandy
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting icanfly (Reply 14):
Just a question. If there isn't enough demand on HNL, what are the drivers which make LHR-MRU, CDG-MRU, ORY-RUN successful? After MRU and RUN are also small islands with limited business traffic, mostly tourism. Also SYD-RUN on Air Austral (though granted it connects to CDG, but presumably the SYD leg still needs to be viable).

Réunion is a French department, its part of France. So ORY-RUN is sort of a domestic flight. I don't know about Air Austral but AF use high density 777 on the route. Maybe not so much business class travel but lots of VFR traffic in economy.

MRU from the UK is a mix of high spending leisure passengers (big honeymoon destination) and VFR. The UK and thinking about London particularly is very much a multi-cultural society.

Orlando not only has the scheduled services operated by BA and VS but lots of charter flights into the region. For many Brits its the first and sometimes only place they ever visit in the United States. You have the parks like Disney, Universal etc, great shopping, golf and lots more, plus its thought of as safe. Also a large number of brits own second homes in Orlando. Real estate in the area is very good value compared to UK prices. You get families travelling to the Orlando area from the UK who would just never dream of even visiting LAX. Yes UK-Orlando can be low yield traffic but there is a lot of it, a lot of people want to go. Lots of people want to go and see Mickey!!!

Alex
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:53 pm

I have been on vacation to Hawaii, and I really enjoyed it - it was a few years ago however - 2003 IIRC.

I flew LHR-SFO-HNL-SFO-LHR on UA.  

I still remember playing a game on board the flight from SFO to HNL called Halfway to Hawaii... Amusing  


Lee
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DullesFlyer
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:55 pm

Quoting richcandy (Reply 21):
For many Brits its the first and sometimes only place they ever visit in the United States. You have the parks like Disney, Universal etc, great shopping, golf and lots more, plus its thought of as safe.

The numbers really don't support that. Everything Orlando has, LA has and on top of that, it has much better weather year round and beautiful beaches. Ever been to Disney World in Orlando from May - September? The humidity is oppressive, and far worse than it is on the coast.

No LHR/MCO flights, 3 x LGW/MCO flights, 1 x MAN/MCO, and 1 GLA/MCO on SAT/SUN only. Plenty of Brits in MIA, LA, NY, DC, PHX, Vegas, and many others, not just Orlando.
 
koruman
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:58 pm

It will happen - the problem has simply been range to fly such services as a single sector. Airlines can justify a 15 hour LHR-HNL flight, but not the need to have two separate crews to man LHR-LAX and LAX-HNL.

Significant numbers of British tourists in particular visit Hawaii, and we know from their trips to Barbados, Antigua, Mauritius and the Seychelles that there would be significant Business and especially Premium Economy demand, as their is for all upscale long-haul leisure travel from the UK And Premium Economy is a more profitable class of service than Business Class anyway, with fare levels typically around double those of Economy class, but with a seat density almost triple that of Business Class.

Until recently, the US$ was not that attractive to European, Australian and New Zealand tourists, but the terminal state of the US economy has fixed that, and now Hawaii is an eminently good value destination even for luxury travel.

Until around ten years ago there was a one-stop service on Air New Zealand from London Heathrow and Frankfurt to Honolulu via LAX, but as 742 aircraft were replaced with 744s the airline reviewed its network of Pacific stopovers.

There is little promotion of Hawaii in the UK in part because British travellers on a 9+9 hour flight simply will not tolerate US domestic standards of service (i.e. no hot meals). My parents are vacationing from the UK to Hawaii next month, and had decided to do so because their travel agent told them that Continental still had full service flights on the US domestic sectors - which they now no longer do. They are used to flying Emirates, Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand and are worried about what lies ahead on Continental - my father has already described their trip as "ruined before we will even get to Hawaii".

Virgin Atlantic have indicated that they would like to use 788 or 789 aircraft for LGW-HNL services, and it is assumed that Hawaiian Airlines will use their A350s to operate HNL-LHR and HNL-FRA at the very least.

[Edited 2011-08-11 07:10:59]
 
ben175
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:01 pm

Everyone saying no Europeans go to Hawaii obviously hasn't been in the last year or so. I just spent 3 weeks there in July and I was utterly AMAZED at the amount of French, Italian and German tourists! For a second I thought I missed an announcement LH or AF had started a seasonal charter service! I travel to the islands frequently and have never seen anything like it before
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:08 pm

I would not rule out BA launching a service to a HNL when the 787s arrive.
 
richcandy
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:12 pm

Quoting DullesFlyer (Reply 23):
The numbers really don't support that. Everything Orlando has, LA has and on top of that, it has much better weather year round and beautiful beaches. Ever been to Disney World in Orlando from May - September? The humidity is oppressive, and far worse than it is on the coast.

No LHR/MCO flights, 3 x LGW/MCO flights, 1 x MAN/MCO, and 1 GLA/MCO on SAT/SUN only. Plenty of Brits in MIA, LA, NY, DC, PHX, Vegas, and many others, not just Orlando.

Yes LA has everything that Orlando has however its much more expensive to get there from the UK than Orlando. There are packages with charter flights from the UK to Orlando for not a lot more than 2 weeks in Spain. I have been to Orlando in July a number of times. The weather was great, when you live in a cold damp country any type of heat is a welcome change.

You have talked about the schedule services however there are also charter flights from lots of cities in the UK to Stanford
 
airbazar
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:13 pm

Quoting icanfly (Thread starter):
Some past threads about HNL (none of seemed to have touched on this point) have said it's predominantly a leisure route and lacks premium traffic, but this alone cannot explain it as, e.g. BA flies to other leisure heavy routes, e.g. MCO and any number of Caribbean destinations. And surely there is some traffic between Hawaii and Europe sufficient to warrant say a 3x weekly service.

Hawaii sees about 115 thousand visitors per year from Europe, half of which comes from the UK, and the rest from all over Europe, therefore it is easy to deduct that other than maybe LON, no other city in Europe has enough demand to maintain a non-stop route to Hawaii.

Quoting legacyins (Reply 2):
Long, thin and low yield. Also, Europeans tend to drift down to the Canary Islands, Mallorca ect... Why get on a 15 hr?? flight to get the same affect.

You're right on the first part. The yields would be such that only a charter operation would make sense. However I don't agree with your second statement. There are plenty of Europeans vacationing in Australia and Southeast Asia, so travel time is not really the issue here. I suspect the main issue is that Hawaii has historically sold itself, mainly to Japan. Even in the US east coast we don't see much advertisement for Hawaii.

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 18):
I have never heard a European mention having been to Hawaii, however I hear countless people about their vacations to Thailand, Malaysia, Florida, the Caribbean, Brazil, Mexico and several more. Also when you walk past travel agencies you never see any advertisements for vacations to Hawaii. Most of course are for the Med the others for the destinations mentioned above.

I'm European and I've been to Hawaii twice. Does that count?   Your assertion however is correct and it reenforces my suspicion that the lack of European tourists is mainly due to Hawaii not advertising/selling itself in the European market rather than distance. Also, the leisure market from Europe is controled by very large travel groups who are not invested in Hawaii, hence the reason why they don't sell Hawaii.

A Thomson 763ER or a Thomas Cook A332 would have no problem flying from Europe to Hawaii with a refueling stop in Alaska, if those companies had any interest in selling Hawaii in the European market. But this opens up another can of worms: Are either of those ETOPS 180 certified? Maybe that is the real reason why we don't see European charters to Hawaii.

Global market forces are changing the Hawaii tourism industry. Japanese tourism to Hawaii is decreasing, and the strenght of the Euro against the US Dollar is making Hawaii and the United States very affordable to Europeans. chinese visitors are also increasing in Hawaii. So who knows, maybe Europe-Hawaii service is closer than we think.
 
DullesFlyer
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting richcandy (Reply 27):
You have talked about the schedule services however there are also charter flights from lots of cities in the UK to Stanford

And the vast majority of charter flights are "seasonal" and only operate for a span of 2-3 months maybe a little more. Where is the evidence to support saying that "for most Brits its the first and sometimes only place they ever visit in the United States?"
 
Flyglobal
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:32 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 13):
For many Europeans that do head for Hawaii it is often only a part of a two or even 3 centre vacation taking in the likes of L.A. and/or Vegas so no need for direct service.

Correct.
Hawai is part of a once (or very few) in a lifetime vacation trips you do as a European. As we euopeans have more vacation, in such an event we tend to do such a trip in combination in lets say 3-4 weeks large vacation. It is convenient for us to go for e.g. 10-14 days to hawai and add asmall claifornia trip going LA, Las Vegas, Death valley, gand canyon another 2 weeks and then return to america.

However also hawaii competes with Maledives, Thailand (almost rather normal) Caribbean destinations, just to name a few.

I am lucky to have been trhere (visiting from Japan by the way) and I loved it.

Hawai is underrated by the europeans and if the 787 can open it up for us, I am sure we could use it as one of the destinations similar to Thailand, Maledives seychelles etc. So lets see what develops.
In the past (20years ago) Careebean flights have been exotic for us Europeans. Nowadays it is kind of standard. With Hawaii reachable for reasonable prices, it could be come the Carreebean of 2020 for us Europeans.

Anyhow, at least I will return to Hawaii - didn't see all yet. (where is the 787 dammed)

regards

Flyglobal
 
avek00
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:43 pm

1. Most Europeans heading to Hawaii do so as part of a vacation where they first visit 1+ cities in continental North America, so the demand for nonstop access to Hawaii is minimal.

2. As a long, thin route with little premium demand, Europe-Hawaii flying is more efficiently performed by existing aircraft types and routing via EWR, DEN or the West Coast.
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paneuropean
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:02 pm

Maybe Hawaii could do well during the Ironman World Championship October. I participated thrice and brought some friends and family with me. There are about 1500 competitors in Kona annualy....

To be honest, I think Hawaii is too remote as a destination. It is served well through California. Even Australia has few European connections and I can't think of any Connections between the Canary Islands and the US except for Air Europa.

Hawaii is a beautiful archipelago worth visiting year round however! More interesting than most Caribbean Islands...

Pan

[Edited 2011-08-11 08:12:32]

[Edited 2011-08-11 08:13:29]
 
koruman
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 31):
1. Most Europeans heading to Hawaii do so as part of a vacation where they first visit 1+ cities in continental North America, so the demand for nonstop access to Hawaii is minimal.

2. As a long, thin route with little premium demand, Europe-Hawaii flying is more efficiently performed by existing aircraft types and routing via EWR, DEN or the West Coast.

Actually, that is not my understanding at all.

There is a clear split between the 50% from the UK and the 50% from the rest of Europe. The British ones tend to combine Hawaii with Australia and/or New Zealand. Any US mainland stopover is usually involuntary and in order to take connecting flights back to the UK.

Again, I should enter into evidence my parents' MAN-HNL trip next month. They have no desire whatsoever to visit the US mainland. But they have no option but to stay 23 hours at Newark on the way out, and they have no option but to route via Los Angeles and Newark on the way back.

And they do not at all consider themselves "more efficiently" conveyed in this way. If they were going to Mauritius for a comparable trip - it's only 1000 miles closer - they would for a similar fare be able to fly a single Premium Economy flight each way, with champagne upon boarding, 38 inches legroom, cooked meals, unlimited liquor and AVOD.

Instead of this on their way back HNL-LAX-EWR the connection will be too tight to buy a hot meal, they will get crappy cold BOB food if there is any left, no IFE (or else IFE they have to pay for!) and they will pay for drinks.

They are under no illusion that going to Hawaii from the UK is an ordeal where you have to accept awful levels of comfort and amenities for hours and hours on end, as well as having to reclaim and then recheck their luggage to stop over in a dump like Newark where they would never normally want to go. And it costs as much as Premium Economy to Mauritius!

So to sum up for British tourists with a thousand pound budget:

Mauritius: 38 inch pitch, meals, liquor, luggage, AVOD included, a single 12 hour flight
Hawaii: 31 inch pitch, BOB apart from Transatlantic sector, no liquor, no IFE, 42 hour trip out, 29 hour trip back.

That is why onlu 115,000 people consider themselves "well-served" by the current status quo each year!
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:06 pm

Let me clarify a previous post of mine: of course there are Europeans going to Hawaii but not as many as other markets. Airlines of course want to make money, so they fly where there is the demand. And Europeans "demand" other destinations than Hawaii.
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GIANCAVIA
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:15 pm

Dont see the point in going all the way to Hawaii when there are places alot closer around europe or neighbouring that offer the same kind of holiday.

[Edited 2011-08-11 08:15:40]
 
worlddc10
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:23 pm

IIRC, an American carrier (perhaps Western) had a LGW-ANC-HNL flight at some point. May have been seasonal (?) Would have late 70's or early 80's.
 
richcandy
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:23 pm

Quoting DullesFlyer (Reply 29):
And the vast majority of charter flights are "seasonal" and only operate for a span of 2-3 months maybe a little more. Where is the evidence to support saying that "for most Brits its the first and sometimes only place they ever visit in the United States?"

Summer charter flights from the UK tend to start in May and run to October. During that time there are charter flights to Stanford from cities BFS, BRS, BHX, LGW, EMA, GLA, MAN, NCL. Some of these operate once a week others multiple times a week.

During the winter months November to April there are charters from the larger cities twice a week.

You ask for evidence as to Orlando's popularity from the UK, well I am not sure that I can give you that. However as you can see it well served from the UK. If you look at the websites for the two largest tour operators from the UK (Thomson & Thomas Cook) you will see Orlando is really the only place they offer in the USA. Ask the average Brit were they have been to in the USA and you will find they may say a number of places but the most common destination will be Orlando. This is even more evident the further you go down the pay scale.

A lot of brits when they go overseas on holiday they buy a package. Flight, transfers and accommodation for a set price. For years this was the most common way to travel. Only the wealthy did something different. If you have a look at the website I talked about above you will see that there are 100's of charter flights like this to destinations mainly in southern europe per week. When Orlando started to become popular with the UK market in the late 1980's the tour operators who sent their 757's down to TFS, PMI, AGP etc started to send them to MCO with a stop in Gander or Bangor. This lead to cheap florida packages maybe fly-drive or flight accommodation and car hire. Tour operators have tried to offer other USA destinations in the same sort of way but its never really worked.



Yes of course Brits travel all over the States, but Orlando tends to be a cheap destination and really popular with families in a way that the West Coast, New York etc just isn't.
 
DullesFlyer
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:31 pm

Quoting richcandy (Reply 37):
You ask for evidence as to Orlando's popularity from the UK, well I am not sure that I can give you that.

And your statement paints with a broad brush. I was in the UK last week, and interacted with many Brits, and they were all curious as to where in the States I was from, and naturally I ask them if they have ever been there. Most said "yes," and some said "yes, but I've also been ......." not Orlando. Yes, I am sure Orlando is a popular destination, but to say that most Brits probably have only ever been there is absurd.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:46 pm

Did we not just have this discussion in one of the Hawaiian Air threads?


Simpy put demand it rather thin. Demand from the Eastern US to Hawaii is weakish let alone all the way from Europe to Hawaii.

Hawaii is primarily a US West Coast and North Asia market, and to a lesser extent Canada, Central/Eastern US and Australia/NZ.

Quoting koruman (Reply 24):
Significant numbers of British tourists in particular visit Hawaii,

I don't know what you consider "significant", but the latest published full year numbers(2009) showed 44,476 from the UK -- not even 1% of the almost 7 million annual visitors.

Europeans are not even one of the top spenders when on the islands with only about 53% of the daily spend of the Japanese for example so its not like they are a highly desired quality group of travellers either.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
directorguy
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:04 pm

Seems to me that a Europe-Hawaii direct flight would serve to stimulate demand rather than serve it. If a direct flight was marketed with a resort as a package then I don't see why more European tourists will be enticed. Similar to the way charter and tour operators started flying to places in the Caribbean and the Indian Ocean from Europe and over time made them popular for Europeans. Were it not for stimulating demand, you wouldn't have routes like Manchester-Orlando or Frankfurt-Montego Bay or Cancun-London. Shows that Europeans are willing to travel over 4-5 hours for some fun in the sun. A Condor 767 operating FRA-HNL with a fuel stop somewhere wouldn't be so bad.
 
airbazar
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 31):
1. Most Europeans heading to Hawaii do so as part of a vacation where they first visit 1 cities in continental North America, so the demand for nonstop access to Hawaii is minimal.

One reason why I suggested in the other thread that if HA starts service to Europe it will likely be via a continental US city.

Quoting koruman (Reply 33):
They are under no illusion that going to Hawaii from the UK is an ordeal where you have to accept awful levels of comfort and amenities for hours and hours on end, as well as having to reclaim and then recheck their luggage to stop over in a dump like Newark where they would never normally want to go. And it costs as much as Premium Economy to Mauritius!

Well here the lack of Asia service from MAN is as much to blame otherwise they could fly East via NRT or ICN and it would probably be faster considering the long layover in EWR, and get a better inflight service, no? Heck, even MAN-LHR-NRT-HNL would probably still be faster albeit with 1 extra plane change.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 35):
Dont see the point in going all the way to Hawaii when there are places alot closer around europe or neighbouring that offer the same kind of holiday.

Spoken like someone who's never been to Hawaii. There is nothing in the vicinity of Europe, Caribbean included, that is even comparable to Hawaii. It would be fair to say that Hawaii competes with the likes of Renunion/Mauritius/Seychelles and to some extent Southeast Asia and Tahiti.
 
peterjohns
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 41):
There is nothing in the vicinity of Europe, Caribbean included, that is even comparable to Hawaii. It would be fair to say that Hawaii competes with the likes of Renunion/Mauritius/Seychelles

True, and thats why Reunion and MRU is served very well from FRA and CDG. Something like 20 flights a week.
Only 3 hr time change, 12 hr flight. I have visited those islands very often.

The Long-Haul flight to HNL would be very costly ( It is a lot cheaper- we are talking about 20-25%, if you can do a fuel stop) and you have to share your Hotel with Chinese and Japanese, and are still in the US.

Reunion even has a volcano to offer, so whats the deal!!?
 
AADC10
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:55 pm

Obviously it is not too difficult to get to Hawaii from Europe, it is only not possible non-stop. The real question is are there enough passengers willing to pay a premium for a non-stop flight? Because of the distance the premium would be substantial. There is no non-stop to Hawaii from IAD or a bunch of other large domestic hubs either. If you are vacationing in Hawaii from Europe, you can stop for a day in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Tokyo or wherever on the way, which some may consider to be a plus.
 
AADC10
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:55 pm

Obviously it is not too difficult to get to Hawaii from Europe, it is only not possible non-stop. The real question is are there enough passengers willing to pay a premium for a non-stop flight? There is no non-stop to Hawaii from IAD or a bunch of other large domestic hubs either. If you are vacationing in Hawaii from Europe, you can stop for a day in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Tokyo or wherever on the way, which some may consider to be a plus.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:55 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 40):
Seems to me that a Europe-Hawaii direct flight would serve to stimulate demand rather than serve it.

OK how much do you want to stimulate it? 100% ?

Taking the UK market - the largest in Europe, that would mean still only about 240 daily passengers.
Its doubtful you could capture even half of these folks on a single nonstop(or direct 1-stop) service. People will still choose various other travel options via other US gateways for reasons such as price, frequent flyer miles, schedules or desire to see someplace else etc...
As I posted in one of the Hawaiian Air threads, Europe will still remain a small market to Hawaii no matter what. Its simple geography. If one wants to look at potential new markets to Hawaii then look to Latin America - Mexico and Brazil particularly which are starting to produce a growing number of visitors to the islands and likely provide a larger long-term growth potential.

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 42):
and you have to share your Hotel with Chinese and Japanese, and are still in the US.

And what is the problem having Japanese or Chinese around    
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:55 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 40):
Seems to me that a Europe-Hawaii direct flight would serve to stimulate demand rather than serve it.

OK how much do you want to stimulate it? 100% ?

Taking the UK market - the largest in Europe, that would mean still only about 240 daily passengers.
Its doubtful you could capture even half of these folks on a single nonstop(or direct 1-stop) service. People will still choose various other travel options via other US gateways for reasons such as price, frequent flyer miles, schedules or desire to see someplace else etc...
As I posted in one of the Hawaiian Air threads, Europe will still remain a small market to Hawaii no matter what. Its simple geography. If one wants to look at potential new markets to Hawaii then look to Latin America - Mexico and Brazil particularly which are starting to produce a growing number of visitors to the islands and likely provide a larger long-term growth potential.

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 42):
and you have to share your Hotel with Chinese and Japanese, and are still in the US.

And what is the problem having Japanese or Chinese travels around    
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:30 pm

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 35):
Dont see the point in going all the way to Hawaii when there are places alot closer around europe or neighbouring that offer the same kind of holiday.

Yes, but those other places aren't Hawaii! Those who haven't been to Hawaii are missing out. I've been around the world, but Hawaii still has a special place for me.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 39):
the latest published full year numbers(2009) showed 44,476 from the UK -- not even 1% of the almost 7 million annual visitors.

44,476 sounds pretty significant to me! And I bet Hawaii appreciates every last one of them. Perhaps not a daily flight, or limited to seasonal traffic, but a non-stop might work.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 46):
And what is the problem having Japanese or Chinese travels around

Yeah, you tell em! Maybe I have my cultural blinders on, but do a lot of Chinese citizens visit Hawaii?

Quoting richcandy (Reply 37):
Orlando tends to be a cheap destination and really popular with families in a way that the West Coast, New York etc just isn't.

What!? New York City is crawling with British folks!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Quoting DullesFlyer (Reply 23):
Quoting richcandy (Reply 21):
For many Brits its the first and sometimes only place they ever visit in the United States. You have the parks like Disney, Universal etc, great shopping, golf and lots more, plus its thought of as safe.

The numbers really don't support that. Everything Orlando has, LA has and on top of that, it has much better weather year round and beautiful beaches. Ever been to Disney World in Orlando from May - September? The humidity is oppressive, and far worse than it is on the coast.

No LHR/MCO flights, 3 x LGW/MCO flights, 1 x MAN/MCO, and 1 GLA/MCO on SAT/SUN only. Plenty of Brits in MIA, LA, NY, DC, PHX, Vegas, and many others, not just Orlando.


The numbers absolutely support it. ORLLON is the fourth largest market between the Unied States and Europe. ORLMAN is among the fifteen busiest U.S.-EU local markets, and it's almost double the size of NYCMAN. And, no doubt, a lot of the traffic on MIALON, one of the ten busiest U.S.-EU pairs, is driving up the Turnpike to Kissimmee. LASLON and PHXLON don't come anywhere close.
a.
 
airbazar
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RE: Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 47):
44,476 sounds pretty significant to me! And I bet Hawaii appreciates every last one of them. Perhaps not a daily flight, or limited to seasonal traffic, but a non-stop might work.

There's another important factoid here: Europeans visiting Hawaii spend on average more that Asian and American tourists. That's an important fact for Hawaii's tourism industry.

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 42):
and you have to share your Hotel with Chinese and Japanese, and are still in the US.

As an European I'm appaled by that statement.

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 42):
True, and thats why Reunion and MRU is served very well from FRA and CDG. Something like 20 flights a week.
Only 3 hr time change, 12 hr flight. I have visited those islands very often.

Reunion is part of France. Currently and to the best of my knowlege there are only non-stop flights from France to RUN. I'm going to guess that if you exclude French visitors, the number of European visitors to Reunion is probably not that much different than to Hawaii. The economics for having non-stop flights from Europe to Hawaii are really not that different than from having them from Europe to Reunion. It is very similar. I would even risk guessing that you have more annual UK visitors to Hawaii than to Reunion.

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