Why Are There No Europe To HNL Flights?

jc2354 · Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:26 pm

I have thought that a perfect route for Hawaiian would be Australia-HNL-Canada-Europe, e.g. SYD-HNL-YVR-FRA. They could use either their 763 or 330. Through HNL it would offer connections to the South Pacific Islands. Hawaiian is the closest full service airlines, at least by American standards. And, I believe that with open sky agreements, they would be able to carry local traffic on each leg. If they promoted it properly, and created a demand for the market, it could potentially be profitable on every leg.

Just my rambling thoughts.

Jack

blink182 · Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:34 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 24):
There is little promotion of Hawaii in the UK in part because British travellers on a 9+9 hour flight simply will not tolerate US domestic standards of service (i.e. no hot meals). My parents are vacationing from the UK to Hawaii next month, and had decided to do so because their travel agent told them that Continental still had full service flights on the US domestic sectors - which they now no longer do. They are used to flying Emirates, Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand and are worried about what lies ahead on Continental - my father has already described their trip as "ruined before we will even get to Hawaii".

For the past four years I have flown mainland US-HNL flights on a yearly basis, and certainly agree that the lack of service is ridiculous, especially considering what service levels once were on these routes. However, what prevents mainland Europeans from connecting through HND,NRT, and ICN and enjoying the far superior service on JAL, ANA, and KE?

LAXintl · Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:57 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 47):
44,476 sounds pretty significant to me!

You call average ~122/day pax significant? That's barely an A319 worth of folks.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 47):
but do a lot of Chinese citizens visit Hawaii?

They are the big up and coming group, and have already surpassed the Japanese on their per capita spending on the island. In 2011 and estimated 85,000 Chinese are forecast to visit Hawaii.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):
Europeans visiting Hawaii spend on average more that Asian and American tourists. That's an important fact for Hawaii's tourism industry.

Actually they don't.

Per Hawaii Visitors and Convention Bureau annual market research report, European's spend an average of $144 per person/per day, while for instance Japanese spend $268, Oceania $203, Latin America $185, and even US Eastboard travellers at $166. The only group European's outspend are US Western travellers which only drop $133 per day on average per person.

icanfly · Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:29 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 33):
They are under no illusion that going to Hawaii from the UK is an ordeal where you have to accept awful levels of comfort and amenities for hours and hours on end, as well as having to reclaim and then recheck their luggage to stop over in a dump like Newark where they would never normally want to go.

Absolutely. OK 50K U.K. visitors to HI per year isn't that great, but maybe a non-stop service, marketed cleverly, could be what's needed to stimulate demand. BA has B777-200ER configured 40J/24W/219Y that could do the trip. Visitors could avoid having having to go through immigration, reclaim and recheck bags at the U.S. stopover (EWR, SFO, LAX) and a long layover at one of those airports, and enjoy BA long-haul service. So I'm not persuaded that HNL is adequately served by U.S. airline partners taking feed from European carriers.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):
I'm going to guess that if you exclude French visitors, the number of European visitors to Reunion is probably not that much different than to Hawaii. The economics for having non-stop flights from Europe to Hawaii are really not that different than from having them from Europe to Reunion. It is very similar. I would even risk guessing that you have more annual UK visitors to Hawaii than to Reunion.

Correct, which makes me think that the only reason there aren't non-stop services say HNL-LHR is that BA has gotten comfortable that the route is better served via OW partner connections through U.S. gateways. Like Reunion and Mauritius, HI is more of a high-end leisure destination that doesn't really compete with SE Asia and the Caribbean in the European tourism market.

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 34):
And Europeans "demand" other destinations than Hawaii.

Is this in part because of the absence of convenient connections?

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 44):
Obviously it is not too difficult to get to Hawaii from Europe, it is only not possible non-stop. The real question is are there enough passengers willing to pay a premium for a non-stop flight?

Typically at least a 20hr journey time is required, on the best connections.

FlyingHollander · Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:42 pm

Quoting icanfly (Reply 54):
Is this in part because of the absence of convenient connections?

Im sure this is part of it.

Another thing though: I assume Hawaii is more expensive than African or Asian beach destinations? Could this this be a possible (partial) explanation as tourists often choose for cheap package vacations

airbazar · Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:58 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 53):
Per Hawaii Visitors and Convention Bureau annual market research report, European's spend an average of $144 per person/per day, while for instance Japanese spend $268, Oceania $203, Latin America $185, and even US Eastboard travellers at $166. The only group European's outspend are US Western travellers which only drop $133 per day on average per person.

Ah, but Europeans stay in Hawaii 3 times longer than anyone else, an average of 21.3 days, and have different spending patterns. They may go for condo rentals instead of hotel rooms. They'll buy groceries instead of eating out. They'll explore the islands on their own instead of going on tour buses. That's not better or worse than other visitors. It's simply a different market.
Here's a good write up on why Hawaii doesn't see many European visitors:
http://kekepana.com/blog/2011/03/09/hawaiis-tourism-market-briefing/
As I posted in reply 28, Hawaii doesn't sell itself in Europe. It's as simple as that. It has little to do with distance or lack of non-stop service.

peterjohns · Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 49):
As an European I'm appaled by that statement.

Really?? Then, Sir , as a fellow european , you have lost your sense of humour!!

Quoting airbazar (Reply 49):
Reunion is part of France. Currently and to the best of my knowlege there are only non-stop flights from France to RUN.

There are 12 flights a week nonstop from CDG to MRU alone. On top of that the flight from Condor to MRU from FRA and from MK , however stopping in Geneve in this off season.

koruman · Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:11 pm

I would argue that if the 789 has sufficient range you could very easily operate a successful LHR-HNL (or LGW-HNL) flight three times weekly with a configuration along the lines of:

16 lie-flat Business at 2500 pounds return
42 seven-abreast Premium Economy at 1000 pounds return
200 Economy at 600 pounds return

laxintl has written on several occasions that only 44,000 British visitors go to Hawaii each year. But I have shown that Mauritius and coastal Thailand and Malaysia are almost as far away.

The difference is that those destinations can be reached non-stop with a 12-14 hour flight with high levels of service, whereas to get to and from Hawaii involves lengthy connections, overnight layovers and endurance of appalling American service standards for much of the journey.

InsideMan · Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:14 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 18):
I have never heard a European mention having been to Hawaii, however I hear countless people about their vacations to Thailand, Malaysia, Florida, the Caribbean, Brazil, Mexico and several more. Also when you walk past travel agencies you never see any advertisements for vacations to Hawaii

yes, because currently it's still incredibely expensive

Quoting avek00 (Reply 31):
1. Most Europeans heading to Hawaii do so as part of a vacation where they first visit 1+ cities in continental North America, so the demand for nonstop access to Hawaii is minimal.

only because there is no other way....

You will have a hard time finding one european who hasn't dreamt about going to Hawaii once in their lifes. Think about Magnum, Hawaii 5.0, the Elvis movies in the 60s.... it's a dream destination for a lot of people, just way to expensive as is.

mainMAN · Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 13):
For many Europeans that do head for Hawaii it is often only a part of a two or even 3 centre vacation taking in the likes of L.A. and/or Vegas so no need for direct service.

Very good point, Hawaii just isn't on the radar for most Europeans. In exactly the same way that the Greek Islands and Turkey don't attract legions of North Americans.

David_itl · Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:30 pm

I can remember the HA DC8s and L1011s operating in in 1987 or 1988 operating HNL-(somewhere)-MAN-LGW (flight number HA584/585) but that would probably be linked to a charter programme.

avek00 · Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:55 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 33):
And they do not at all consider themselves "more efficiently" conveyed in this way.

I was referring to efficiency from the airlines' standpoint. In some instances, especially when the flight lengths involved are 15+ hours, it's simply more efficient to go one-stop than to operate a non-stop.

airbazar · Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:11 am

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 56):
Really?? Then, Sir , as a fellow european , you have lost your sense of humour!!

If it was intended to be funny then you should have put a

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 56):
There are 12 flights a week nonstop from CDG to MRU alone. On top of that the flight from Condor to MRU from FRA and from MK , however stopping in Geneve in this off season.

Maurtius, like Reunion have long established social and economic ties with Europe, mainly England and France. It is no surprise that these tourist markets would be well established in Europe. It's the same reason why you have 70 weekly non-stop flights between Portugal and Brazil and not a single scheduled flight between Portugal and the Caribbean, even though the Caribbean can be both cheaper and closer to Portugal than Brazil. There are no relevant economic or social ties between Hawaii and Europe, and Hawaii has not shown much interest in selling itself in Europe.

icanfly · Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:48 am

Quoting avek00 (Reply 61):
In some instances, especially when the flight lengths involved are 15+ hours,

Just to clarify, LHR-HNL wouldn't be 15+ hours. It's slightly shorter than SYD-SFO (6,445nm versus 6,289nm) which UA flies daily in 13 hours eastbound, a bit longer westbound as the 744s can't catch a ride on westerly Pacific trade winds.

IADLHR · Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting blink182 (Reply 51):
For the past four years I have flown mainland US-HNL flights on a yearly basis, and certainly agree that the lack of service is ridiculous, especially considering what service levels once were on these routes. However, what prevents mainland Europeans from connecting through HND,NRT, and ICN and enjoying the far superior service on JAL, ANA, and KE?

Exactly. I have some friends, in Germany, that for a long time had a house in HNL. Every time they flew to, or from, HNL it was via NRT or ICN as the Asian carriers were far superior in every way and that was long before service on the US carriers started to go down hill.

cslusarc · Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:59 am

Lets get back on topic: I believe that under current economic circumstances a direct one-stop flight between Europe (preferably LGW) and HNL is viable as it would have lower operating costs and higher revenue potential than a nonstop flight. I believe that ANC (Anchorage, AK), YXY (Whitehorse, YT) or YVR (Vancouver, BC) are the viable options as intermediate points, but I prefer YVR for its strong year-round demand for travel and ability to carry fifth freedom passengers on the HNL-YVR segment

26point2 · Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:42 am

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 18):
I have never heard a European mention having been to Hawaii

I'm at the Waikoloa Beach Marriott, Kona, HI (PHKO) as I write this. Plenty of Europeans at this beach. Very nice.

airlineecon · Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:15 am

Hawaii is too expensive for Europeans who like to take long, long vacations.

Distance isn't the issue for Europeans.
Hordes of Europeans travel a similarly long distance to far flung places like Bali, Thailand, Vietnam for beach vacations. The difference of course is that these places are cheap and Europeans can afford the 21.3 days.

If anything its American vacationers, who don't take 21.3 days off work, who are averse to taking vacations to destinations half way around the world.

Let's also be clear, Hawaii and the Spanish islands are not substitutes.

YULWinterSkies · Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:25 am

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 3):
Hawaii isn´t a big holiday destination to many europeans. If LH would be able to make great profits on that route, I´m sure they would fly it.

The only time I've been to Hawaii (on the Honolulu beaches to be precise), I was actually surprised by how many Europeans I saw (judging by the languages spoken), considering how distant Europe is.

Quoting richardw (Reply 1):
How many sectors per week could be done from LGW to HNL compared to MCO ?

I'm not sure I get your point. Aircraft usually don't stick to one specific route but generally switch back and forth between different routes so that fleet use is optimized. One day it could fly to HNL, the next to MCO, and the following to MRU. Happens all the time.

Quoting icanfly (Reply 5):
Agreed, yet NRT-HNL, ICN-HNL, HNL-PVG all seem perfectly viable for JL, NH, KA and MU with enough BC demand. It could be those are shorter routes, or tap into VFR demand for Hawaii's Asian communities.

It could also be that Asian tourists loooooooove to go to Hawaii. Having flown NRT-HNL on DL once (flight 3 of the 3 daily for DL alone), I can attest that Asian people on vacation trips were the overwhelming majority on board. Also yes, it's only 7 hours, as opposed to 15 or so for Euro folks.

Oykie · Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:08 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 24):
Virgin Atlantic have indicated that they would like to use 788 or 789 aircraft for LGW-HNL services, and it is assumed that Hawaiian Airlines will use their A350s to operate HNL-LHR and HNL-FRA at the very least.

This is what I have read as well. And as jc2354 says

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 50):
Through HNL it would offer connections to the South Pacific Islands.

This would be a nice opportunity. My little sister has been living in New Zealand for some time, and it is so far away, it almost does not matter if we are going east or west. Having an option to connect at Hawaii, would be a nice option. I believe for Hawaiian a connection to Europe will eventually work as they increase HNL as a hub.

Viper911 · Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:40 am

Quoting icanfly (Reply 12):
I agree that Hawaii would just be another vacation destination competing among many in Asia, the Caribbean etc for European tourism. However with a population of 1.4m and a $70-80bn economy it's not exactly in the same league as the tiny Caribbean islands or the Maldives.

The problem is, Hawaii is too expensive compared to other holiday destinations, would you pay 2 or 3 times more for the same service or same vacation? I wouldn't, would you sit in an airplane for 13 hours when you can get to a similar place in just 4?. If you live in Europe or in the Mediterranean region, you have a very big choice of leisure destinations. Spain, Greece, Turkey, some come to Israel, then you got Bulgaria in the black sea, and that's only in the Mediterranean. Many fly to south east Asia where leisure destination are truly endless, for instance in Thailand you can live as a king, in best hotels, best service best everything, for a normal price, u don't have to tear your pocket for that. Then you got the Caribbean islands. So to sum it up, for a European i can see no reason to pay twice or triple just for a vacation when you can hop with your family and kids on Ryanair, Easyjet, Jet2 or any other British lowcost and fly to somewhere in the Mediterranean and get the same effect.

CXfirst · Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:42 am

Quoting DullesFlyer (Reply 15):
VS is considering a HNL route with their 787's

Keep in mind, VS said this in 2007, things change in that amount of time. So, I'll still wait for something more firm. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I won't look too much into that (this was before GFC, etc.)

-CXfirst

odafz · Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:06 am

I think to answer this question one might consider why there are non- stop services between : IAD, JFK/EWR,CLT, PHL,IAD,PIT,CVG.CLE , BOS and MEM.CO operated for a while a HNL-EWR route but stopped .
When you find the answers to the above query, you will have the answers on why there are non0-direct services between Europe and HNL.

777klm · Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:23 am

Quoting ODAFZ (Reply 72):
CO operated for a while a HNL-EWR route but stopped

They still operate the flight (CO14)

trijetsonly · Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:27 am

When I visited HNL two years ago, I made a stopover for 3 days in LAX, but on the flight LAX-HNL with UA half the plane was German. That UA-Flight was also a LH-Codeshare and departure time was optimized to arriving LH-Flight.
In the 767 of LAX-HNL half the passengers were German, half the crew was German and even the captain was a German, flying for UA.
So there good ways for Europeans to go to Hawaii, though most people here are not interested in going there because there are destinations like Maldives, Caribbean and Thailand for less money.

PHKLM · Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:32 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 57):
16 lie-flat Business at 2500 pounds return
42 seven-abreast Premium Economy at 1000 pounds return
200 Economy at 600 pounds return

Let's assume an average load factor of 80% (paying passengers, no awards/etc) in all cabins on this flight.
A single flight would then produce 16.000 pounds in Business, 16.800 pounds in PE and 48.000 pounds in revenues; or a total of 80.800 pounds, roughly 90.000 euro or 130.000 USD.
Being familiar with airline economics I know this doesn't (*by far*) outweigh the costs that would be associated to this flight:
- The super long block time an aircraft is busy with production on this route and hence cannot be used elsewhere
- The excess crew that has to be taken because of the length of the flight, plus associated lay-over time/costs
- The sheer amount of fuel burn on a long sector like this
- Not even talking about the fixed costs of owning the equipment and operating a station that sees only few flights a week.

So now, even with 787 Europe - Hawaii is just not feasible with average fare levels you quote. You will need to ask a lot more money to cover the costs on this route. My (educated) guess is you would need somewhere around 250.000 euro (220.000 pounds) of revenue on a LHR-HNL leg to cover all costs. In your example (coupled with 80% load factor) that means prices should be in the range of 6000 pounds for Business, 3000 pounds for PE and 1700 pounds for Economy. At those prices I am sure many people are willing to make the stop in the US...

[Edited 2011-08-12 02:34:36]

RWA380 · Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:43 am

I guess the big question is not if, but when will someone try it? It may not last long, but it will happen I think. Other question will it be HA & the 350, or VS, BA or LH. From pure economics and sense I think HA will be the one to make the first move. The aforementioned HA svcs to MAN & LGW on L-1011's and DC-8's must have been charters as HA never has scheduled svcs to Europe, but those HA planes have seen many parts of the world, doing charters. I really love HA, and their story of survival and progress. Can't ever wait to see what's next with them. BTW, I think HA could compete service wise on European flights with them making the trip to the islands a great part of the whole vacation experience

OzarkD9S · Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:35 am

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 42):

Reunion even has a volcano to offer, so whats the deal!!?

As does Hawaii, a very active one Peter.

RWA380 · Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:47 am

I lived in Hawaii 2 years and definitely met many Europeans from all over the continent, but Germans & Brits seemed to be the lions share

koruman · Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:56 am

Quoting phklm (Reply 75):
So now, even with 787 Europe - Hawaii is just not feasible with average fare levels you quote. You will need to ask a lot more money to cover the costs on this route. My (educated) guess is you would need somewhere around 250.000 euro (220.000 pounds) of revenue on a LHR-HNL leg to cover all costs. In your example (coupled with 80% load factor) that means prices should be in the range of 6000 pounds for Business, 3000 pounds for PE and 1700 pounds for Economy. At those prices I am sure many people are willing to make the stop in the US...

That is extraordinary - you are saying that fare levels for a single sector 7,000 mile flight from London to Honolulu need to be double those of a two sector 12,000 mile flight from London to Sydney.

I am surprised.

co38 · Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:22 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 18):
I have never heard a European mention having been to Hawaii, however I hear countless people about their vacations to Thailand, Malaysia, Florida, the Caribbean, Brazil, Mexico and several more

Im actually planning a trip to HNL and LIH in December. It'll be my 3rd visit to the islands in 19 months

Personally, I would have just loved a Eruope-HNL service, preferably OSL-HNL

UAL777UK · Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:36 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 2):
Europeans tend to drift down to the Canary Islands, Mallorca ect... Why get on a 15 hr?? flight to get the same affect.

Yikes. I would hardly compare the Hawaiian Island to the Canaries. Having been to both I would take a 15 hour flight anyday to go back to Hawaii.

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 18):
I have never heard a European mention having been to Hawaii,

Really?? thats amazing.

Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 19):
Lots of Europeans going to Hawaii these days. Just got back a few weeks ago and saw several French and German tourists

Exactly. I know quite a few people that have taken the trip to Hawaii, admittably via a stop in LAX or SFO.

Quoting DullesFlyer (Reply 15):
V

Yes but if they have any sense they will go wheere the money is first and one of those cities that they mention is GIG and i for one am suprised that VS hasnt already started this route. Brasil is booming and the World Cup is not long off.

I would love to see a flight out of LHR/LGW direct to say HNL but even with the 787 I am not convinced we will see it. Not enough bucks up front to make it worth it. I hope I am wrong

HNLPointShoot · Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:05 pm

Quoting david_itl (Reply 60):
I can remember the HA DC8s and L1011s operating in in 1987 or 1988 operating HNL-(somewhere)-MAN-LGW (flight number HA584/585) but that would probably be linked to a charter programme.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 76):
The aforementioned HA svcs to MAN & LGW on L-1011's and DC-8's must have been charters as HA never has scheduled svcs to Europe, but those HA planes have seen many parts of the world, doing charters.

HA was remarkably active in the charter business during the mid-to-late 80s and early 90s before they went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1993. Their planes literally went all over the world flying charters during that time.

airbazar · Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:38 pm

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 65):
I believe that ANC (Anchorage, AK), YXY (Whitehorse, YT) or YVR (Vancouver, BC) are the viable options as intermediate points, but I prefer YVR for its strong year-round demand for travel and ability to carry fifth freedom passengers on the HNL-YVR segment

The stopping point would vary according to the carrier. An European carrier would benefit from a stop in Canada so that it can sell tickets on both segments of the trip. They would not be able to do that with a stop in Alaska since the US does not grant cabotage to any foreign carrier. However, as a fuel stop only, FAI would be the best option.

Quoting airlineecon (Reply 67):
Hawaii is too expensive for Europeans who like to take long, long vacations.

I keep hearing this time and time again, and it couldn't be further form the truth. Hawaii IS NOT an expensive destination, especially with the Euro at $1.43. The most expensive part of a vacation to Hawaii is the flight which is understandabe given the distance, but not much more than a flight of equivalent distance to other vacation destinations. Hawaii is a lot cheaper than any of the other vacation destinations mentioned here: Mauritius, Reunion, Maldives, Seyschelles, etc. The last time I went to Hawaii I paid $1200/pp from BOS, for flight+hotel+car, for 10 days. That is not expensive by any stretch of the imagination.

Jonathanxxxx · Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:02 pm

Quoting CO38 (Reply 80):
Im actually planning a trip to HNL and LIH in December. It'll be my 3rd visit to the islands in 19 months
Personally, I would have just loved a Eruope-HNL service, preferably OSL-HNL

That flight would probably make bucketloads for an airline

Although having been to Hawaii, The Caribbean and living in Florida. I can say that, Hawaii is pretty remarkable. Definitely worth seeing in your lifetime. The Caribbean as good as it is is just so fake in some places. Take places the Cruise Ship Comapnies built. Costa Maya is NOT Mexico. It may be located in Mexico but it is far from it. While yes, it is a nice place the true beauty of Mexico is found in other places. Hawaii (Oahu exempted) is very untouched throughout the islands. You can really see the natural there. It's just too uncomparable.
A flight from Europe would most likely come from a charter airline, BA or LH. Charter Airlines would be able to sell packages and make good profits of the flight. BA and LH would provide a plethora of connections from all over Europe. Another possibility is a Middle Eastern Carrier (Doubt it but 90 A380's have to go somewhere...). Very rich Indians, Middle Easterners would have alot of ease getting to Hawaii.
(Note: I don't see EK coming to HNL soon but maybe in 40 years or so when they serve STL, MSY and PHL

)

Viscount724 · Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:52 pm

Quoting icanfly (Reply 14):
Just a question. If there isn't enough demand on HNL, what are the drivers which make LHR-MRU, CDG-MRU, ORY-RUN successful? After all MRU and RUN are also small islands with limited business traffic, mostly tourism. Also SYD-RUN on Air Austral (though granted it connects to CDG, but presumably the SYD leg still needs to be viable).

Quoting worlddc10 (Reply 36):
IIRC, an American carrier (perhaps Western) had a LGW-ANC-HNL flight at some point. May have been seasonal (?) Would have late 70's or early 80's.

It was Western. It only lasted about 18 months between 1979-81 or thereabouts. Very unprofitable.

Quoting koruman (Reply 57):
The difference is that those destinations can be reached non-stop with a 12-14 hour flight with high levels of service, whereas to get to and from Hawaii involves lengthy connections, overnight layovers and endurance of appalling American service standards for much of the journey.

I doubt 1 in 1000 passengers are even aware of any of those issues. Not many Europeans have ever been to Hawaii and would hardly be flying often enough to compare those types of service standards. And those are passengers who put up with horribly cramped 8-abreast charter carrier 767s on longhaul leisure routes to places like the Maldives.

If you connect at LAX/SFO I can't imagine that all the connections are lengthy and the west coast-Hawaii leg isn't that long, about 5 hours. And after an 11 hour Europe-LAX/SFO flight the last thing I would want on the connecting flight to Hawaii would be another meal. Europeans are very familiar with buy-on-board service on their many LCCs and even some major carriers. The only thing 90% of people care about these days is price. Everything else is secondary.

Quoting icanfly (Reply 63):
Just to clarify, LHR-HNL wouldn't be 15+ hours.

I think you're wrong. LHR-HNL great circle route is about 1600 nm further (about 4 hours flying time not taking winds into accout) than LHR-SFO where block times are close to 11 hours.

peanuts · Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:26 am

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 84):
Hawaii is pretty remarkable

Correct. It has way more to offer than just beaches like the Maldives.

Let's be realistic though, Hawaii for Europeans is perfect for retired baby boomers. A non-stop may be feasible in 3-5 years.
The European masses won't come. If HA starts a European marketing campaign geared towards 65+ crowd they'll do fine.

Biggest reason why we see no Europe-HNL nonstop currently? There are only 24 hours in a day and that plane better be making some money in that time frame. A round trip within 24 hrs is desirable to airlines. Get it back to base so it can fly elsewhere or do it all over again. Anything over 24 hr requires multiple airplane allocations. Now the profits start to plummet...

koruman · Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:48 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
If you connect at LAX/SFO I can't imagine that all the connections are lengthy and the west coast-Hawaii leg isn't that long, about 5 hours.

My parents' forthcoming trip is two 9 hour sectors out with 23 hours in transit. Their return sectors are 6 hours plus six hours plus eight hours, with two three hour transits.

That makes 41 hours outbound and 26 hours return.

The only airline with slicker connections was United (18 hours flying but a 90 minute international to domestic connection at LAX, which was too risky.)

The connections make it so much less convenient than Mauritius that travel agents in the UK make no effort to Market Hawaii.

Viscount724 · Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:15 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 87):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
If you connect at LAX/SFO I can't imagine that all the connections are lengthy and the west coast-Hawaii leg isn't that long, about 5 hours.

My parents' forthcoming trip is two 9 hour sectors out with 23 hours in transit. Their return sectors are 6 hours plus six hours plus eight hours, with two three hour transits.

That makes 41 hours outbound and 26 hours return.

AC currently does LHR-YVR-HNL in 18:50 including 3:25 in transit at YVR. Fastest eastbound is about 23 hrs with 2 connections at YVR and YYZ, or 28 hrs if you want to spend all day in YVR to wait for the YVR-LHR nonstop.

LJ · Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:37 am

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 58):

You will have a hard time finding one european who hasn't dreamt about going to Hawaii once in their lifes.

It's not so hard, I don't dream on coming to Hawaii. If I were to go to the Pacific I would avoid Hawaii as it's so common (too many tourists).

edina · Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:30 am

Quoting icanfly (Reply 14):
Just a question. If there isn't enough demand on HNL, what are the drivers which make LHR-MRU, CDG-MRU, ORY-RUN successful? After all MRU and RUN are also small islands with limited business traffic, mostly tourism.

In addition to the tourist traffice on these routes there is also sizeable VFR traffic which sustains these routes out of the peak holiday season. Many Mauritians work/live in both the UK & France, and many Reunionais are resident in Metropolitan France (look at how many French airports UU serve).

I don't know much about Hawaii, but I suspect there are few European nationals who might help sustain such flights to HNL...

RWA380 · Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:32 am

If HA ever started service to Europe it could easily be marketed as a destination and a stop over point to PPT, PPG, SYD & maybe AKL if they pick it up here soon. HA hopefully will add further destinations in the pacific in time, making NAN or RAR even more attractive for flyers on a European non-stop to the islands.

And having done a few sun destinations worldwide, Hawaii is a magical place that suprcedes on so many levels, the closer traditional places.

airbazar · Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:44 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 89):
It's not so hard, I don't dream on coming to Hawaii. If I were to go to the Pacific I would avoid Hawaii as it's so common (too many tourists).

As opposed to places like Tahiti, Fiji, or the Philipines which are entirely devoid of tourists and not common destinations at all

The beauty of a Hawaii vacation is that it is large enough to allow people to escape the touristy places, and because it is in the US, you can do it easily and safely. People underestimate how big Hawaii really is, especially the Big Island, and even smaller "crowded" islands like Maui and Ohau are still big enough that you can get away on your own.

Gemuser · Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:54 pm

Quoting edina (Reply 90):
In addition to the tourist traffice on these routes there is also sizeable VFR traffic which sustains these routes out of the peak holiday season. Many Mauritians work/live in both the UK & France, and many Reunionais are resident in Metropolitan France (look at how many French airports UU serve).

This VFR traffic to/from Reunion is so large that UU have ordered 2 A380 equipped with *800* seats for Reunion-France flights!

Gemuser

icanfly · Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:09 pm

The theme that keeps coming through the posts is that there's insufficient business/premium demand between Europe and HNL, and, although there are European tourists who go to Hawaii, maybe not enough VFR and tourism demand to support a non-stop.

What's interesting to me is that BA flies to a number of second-tier U.S. cities with populations roughly similar to HNL's - DEN, SAN, TPA, LAS, PHX - perhaps these are successful whereas HNL would not be only because they're all several hours flying time shorter i.e. the longer the flight, the more premium traffic is needed to justify the extra uel and staff costs and the fact the aircraft has to be blocked for that use and can't be deployed elsewhere.

icanfly · Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:09 pm

The theme that keeps coming through the posts is that there's insufficient business/premium demand between Europe and HNL, and, although there are European tourists who go to Hawaii, maybe not enough VFR and tourism demand to support a non-stop.

What's interesting to me is that BA flies to a number of second-tier U.S. cities with populations roughly similar to HNL's - DEN, SAN, TPA, LAS, PHX - perhaps these are successful whereas HNL would not be only because they're all several hours flying time shorter i.e. the longer the flight, the more premium traffic is needed to justify the extra fuel and staff costs and the fact the aircraft has to be blocked for that use and can't be deployed elsewhere.

RayChuang · Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:21 pm

If Europeans want to vacation in sunny spots in Northern Hemisphere summer, they usually go to the south of Europe or fly to various destinations along the US Eastern seaboard. As for sunny vacations during Northern Hemisphere winter, my guess is many Europeans will fly to central to south Florida and Caribbean island nations, and those who could afford it fly to the Maldives, Seychelles, or southeastern Asia.

Hawaii is primarily a destination for tourists from Japan, increasingly South Korea, and especially mainland USA.

D L X · Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:56 pm

Europe?

There aren't even many flights to the east coast from Hawaii. I think the reasons said above are clear: Europeans get a Hawaii-like vacation in the Canaries, Mallorca, etc., just like east coasters go to the Caribbean instead of Hawaii.

jackhi · Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:39 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 89):
It's not so hard, I don't dream on coming to Hawaii. If I were to go to the Pacific I would avoid Hawaii as it's so common (too many tourists).

Perhaps, if you were to visit here, you might have a more accurate impression of our beautiful islands.

Gemuser · Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:25 am

Quoting icanfly (Reply 95):
What's interesting to me is that BA flies to a number of second-tier U.S. cities with populations roughly similar to HNL's - DEN, SAN, TPA, LAS, PHX - perhaps these are successful whereas HNL would not be only because they're all several hours flying time shorter i.e. the longer the flight, the more premium traffic is needed to justify the extra fuel and staff costs and the fact the aircraft has to be blocked for that use and can't be deployed elsewhere.

The thing is DEN, SAN, TPA, LAS & PHX are not isolated like Hawaii is. There is nothing around the Hawaiian islands for over 1000 nm, except ocean so this area contributes nothing in the way of traffic, where as all the cities you mentioned have an area around them, of varing size, that can contribute, at least, some traffic. That combined with the shorter flight pretty much sums it up.

Gemuser

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