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richardw
Topic Author
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Did QF Make The Best Of...

Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:34 pm

the disappearance of AN and the takeover of VQ?

Or did the rise of DJ and the Middle East carriers diminish these opportunities?
 
anstar
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:36 pm

Quoting richardw (Thread starter):
the disappearance of AN and the takeover of VQ?

I think they have done extremely well in the domestic market and continue to do so - So I would say yes. They have also been very agressive at keeping DJ at bay with JQ.

As for International - that is a different story and I think the likes of EK, EY etc all coming in and taking yields away has hurt/
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:03 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 1):
As for International - that is a different story and I think the likes of EK, EY etc all coming in and taking yields away has hurt/

that's only the kangaroo side, which was hammered by SQ and EK

QF was not properly positioned to take advantage of BRIC growth, and it's only bread-n-butter route Aus-LAX is being bombarded from 1 competitor to 3 competitors in a span of a few years

QF also ended up trading most of its premium brand for jetStar, esp Aus-Asia. JQ is "growing" at the expense of yields and profitability (and attracts the least "sticky" customers) - not exactly what QF is supposed to be

anything gained from AN/VQ has far been lost.
 
nascarnut
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:14 pm

It appears QF just sat back on their laurels and did not forsee the invasion coming. By the time they saw it, it was too late for them to react or their management at the time was just to slow to react. QF had huge opportunities and potential but failed to recognize that the fleet mix was not suitable. They built their fleet around a dominant Aust-USA market, a dominant Kangaroo route and strong Asian markets without looking at other opportunities.
With the onslaught of SQ/EK/EY plus to a lessor extent CX/TG/MH they have lost the kangaroo dominance. With DL/AC/UA/VS and now Strategic hitting the USA, there goes that dominance. Even Air NZ is drawing between 200 - 300 passnegers a day from Aust to connect to YVR/LAX/SFO.
Also with the Chinese carriers now attacking QF is failing to respond but relying on Jetstar to carry the flag.
Qantas has also lost the NZ market relying on Jet Connect to do all the flying with the exception the once daily A330 SYD-AKL and AKL-LAX which is operated by Jet Connect cabin crew.
Unless something happens soon, Qantas will be SYD-LHR and SYD-LAX with Jetstar operating everywhere else.
It is a shame to see what was once such a proud carrier slowly self distructing.

[Edited 2011-08-19 11:28:00]
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting richardw (Thread starter):
the disappearance of AN and the takeover of VQ?
Quoting anstar (Reply 1):
I think they have done extremely well in the domestic market and continue to do so - So I would say yes. They have also been very agressive at keeping DJ at bay with JQ.

On the domestic side yes. Their domestic operations are very profitable and (for all the flack that JQ get - not all undeserving) JQ was instrumental in keeping DJ in check.

Internationally though....

They can talk about their high cost base vis-a-vis EK all they like, but it's a reality. Face it!

While in the 1990s LHR and LAX were the goldmine routes those aren't the only two places Australians want to travel to. QF however focused on those routes and let EK take, effectively, the whole of mainland Europe, plus MAN etc.

QF should have realised loooong before now the inadequacy of LHR as a hub, especially when coming from the east. Nobody wants to fly SIN-LHR-TXL. I understand that QF could not have viably offered flights with their own metal to all the cities EK do, but they should have found themselves a partner on the continent which offered a more reasonable set of connection opportunities. And before someone points out that they should be loyal to BA and that another airline wouldn't be OW look at how they completely shun CX but gladly codeshare and even have frequent flyer reciprocity with MU.
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:24 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
QF should have realised loooong before now the inadequacy of LHR as a hub, especially when coming from the east. Nobody wants to fly SIN-LHR-TXL.

Exactly, I lived in the UK for a very long time and when it came to the eastern flights I never flew QF back unless I needed to go straight to London. No way was I going to do SYD-BKK-LHR-name Euro destination, when so many other carriers offered one stop service to mainland Europe.
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
jacobin777
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:04 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
QF should have realised loooong before now the inadequacy of LHR as a hub, especially when coming from the east. Nobody wants to fly SIN-LHR-TXL. I understand that QF could not have viably offered flights with their own metal to all the cities EK do, but they should have found themselves a partner on the continent which offered a more reasonable set of connection opportunities.

They work with AF. Should they have worked with LH? Maybe, but I'm not so sure LH would have worked with them. I do agree however that they could have done codeshares with other carriers. Heck, they didn't need to look any further than their own alliance - such as AY.

Regardless, I don't see a reason why the French Govt. and Australian Govt. can't get Open Skies. I think CDG would work well for QF 5x/weekly.

More important, the failure of QF (and OneWorld) to get a more "centralized" Middle East carrier doesn't help. QF not working closely with EY didn't help IMHO.

What OneWorld should do is work/establish a strong M.E. carrier and provide the connections for QF, IAG and AA (as well as CX, AY, etc.) Maybe working with fellow OneWorld member RJ a bit more. While RJ isn't the best situated M.E. carrier, it does provide feed to some European cities such as TXL, etc. Of course, this doesn't solve QF's problem as SYD-AMM is a bit of a stretch   ....

GF/BAH would be another M.E. city/carrier OneWorld could look at.

The whole point is to make the travel as "seamless" as possible. That is what carriers such as EK, QR, EY, SQ are doing. If the OneWorld carriers collaborate a bit more closely, they can certainly do it.
"Up the Irons!"
 
Quokka
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:24 pm

While airlines like EK and EY have eaten into market share, the rot set in earlier with competition from Asian carriers. Even today, as fare as international passenger movements are concerned, the real increases in market share are being seen by carriers like MH and other Asian carriers, rather than EK, which saw its market share drop slightly last year.

While great emphasis in discussions has been placed on the kangaroo route, the demographic shift in Australia means that many passengers are more interested in getting to Asian destinations rather than Europe. This isn't to deny the continuing importance of European travel but to state the QF hasn't been able to fully take advantage of new passenger trends.

The disappearance of AN could have provided real opportunities for growth but the official Government "two airlines policy" may have had some impact. The government at the time was (at least publicly) concerned that QF did nothing to stifle a new entrant into the market as it wished to prevent a monopoly arising. How great an impact that policy may have had I am not qualified to say.
 
richardw
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:47 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
What OneWorld should do is work/establish a strong M.E. carrier and provide the connections for QF, IAG and AA (as well as CX, AY, etc.) .......

GF/BAH would be another M.E. city/carrier OneWorld could look at.

The whole point is to make the travel as "seamless" as possible. That is what carriers such as EK, QR, EY, SQ are doing. If the OneWorld carriers collaborate a bit more closely, they can certainly do it.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there, working with GF might be a good move, not sure what the downsides of this are though.
 
vaus77w
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
It appears QF just sat back on their laurels and did not forsee the invasion coming. By the time they saw it, it was too late for them to react or their management at the time was just to slow to react. QF had huge opportunities and potential but failed to recognize that the fleet mix was not suitable. They built their fleet around a dominant Aust-USA market, a dominant Kangaroo route

I agree QF are too hub focused, SYD/MEL and LHR/LAX with the A380. Most people want to avoid LHR/LAX with good reason. I think if they had continued flying to more destinations in Europe as they did in the 90's, they'd be in better shape than now and would have a better chance against the likes of SQ/EK/EY. I realise those routes were probably not viable using 744s but they could have downsized to A332 (not sure if this has the range for all Europe legs) or 777-200ER. Once the 787s arrive, I'm hoping they can offer more destinations in Europe once again and people will fly them.

I know the 787 delay has hurt QF's plans badly, but there have been long range. mid-size twin jets available for over a decade, 77E and A332, but too late I guess. Once 787s come, they'll be back in business.
 
qf002
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:09 pm

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 9):
I agree QF are too hub focused, SYD/MEL and LHR/LAX with the A380. Most people want to avoid LHR/LAX with good reason.

Because of the nature of the market out of Australia, it would be quite difficult for QF to make money flying lots of smaller planes to more destinations across the world (particularly across the Pacific) because the traffic simply doesn't exist. I agree that they need to expand out of the traditional hubbing system, but it has to remain alongside any additional expansion into secondary destinations.

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 9):
they could have downsized to A332 (not sure if this has the range for all Europe legs)

The A332 has only developed the legs for a meaningful Asia-Europe range out of SIN in the last couple of years, and on time delivery of the 787 was planned to have filled this role from 2008ish. I would love to see them open up CDG with one of their HGW A332s (currently being wasted on domestic), but alas that would be far too radical for them.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:38 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 10):
I would love to see them open up CDG with one of their HGW A332s (currently being wasted on domestic), but alas that would be far too radical for them.

They used to fly into CDG with 744s but the bilateral would not allow more than 3 flights a week which killed any business travel and accordingly, yields.

Unless the bilateral was seat-based, then I can't this opening up until daily flights are allowed.
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
weebie
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:24 am

QANTAS group is doing well people don't seem to understand this, it's just the QANTAS product itself is struggling.

I think if there were issues I think Qantas neglected markets like Adelaide and especially Perth which has cost them. Many Asian and Arab carriers have turned these routes into profitable ones. Where QANTAS appears to be losing money.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting weebie (Reply 12):

I think if there were issues I think Qantas neglected markets like Adelaide and especially Perth which has cost them.

Do you have some information to support this assertion? IMHO neglecting ADL & PER, to the extent they were in fact neglected was in fact MORE profitable than not neglecting them. Otherwise they wouldn't have neglected them.

Gemuser
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weebie
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:57 am

IMO They focused too much on Sydney and Brisbane. In Perth for instance many smaller charter carriers and Skywest have thrived through the mining boom. Even Virgin Australia has managed to get a slice of the market. Not only has Perth for instance had huge mining flights but also massive migration from South Africa and Britain. Asian and Arab airlines are doing well in Perth yet Qantas has dropped the Tokyo route and is running at a loss.

Success stories like Emirates and Air Asia are examples of QF neglecting markets. It seems like their business was too pacific based and when more carriers came into that Market they appear to be struggling.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:21 am

Quoting weebie (Reply 14):
Success stories like Emirates and Air Asia are examples of QF neglecting markets. It seems like their business was too pacific based and when more carriers came into that Market they appear to be struggling.

Are you for real? One simple question: how do you know that what the other airlines did would have been profitable for QF?
Note: Just because it's profitable for some one else, does not mean it would be profitable for QF.

You know I get a bit sick of this tirade, from many posters, (I am NOT singling out weebie) who think QF is too SYD/MEL focused and too pacific focused (that's a new one on me, hadn't heard that one before). Err have you looked at a population or economic activity map of Australia, it's perfectly reasonable for the big players to be SE Australia focused as it contains more than 60% of the population.

Gemuser
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TruemanQLD
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:14 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 15):
Are you for real? One simple question: how do you know that what the other airlines did would have been profitable for QF?
Note: Just because it's profitable for some one else, does not mean it would be profitable for QF.

You know I get a bit sick of this tirade, from many posters, (I am NOT singling out weebie) who think QF is too SYD/MEL focused and too pacific focused (that's a new one on me, hadn't heard that one before). Err have you looked at a population or economic activity map of Australia, it's perfectly reasonable for the big players to be SE Australia focused as it contains more than 60% of the population.

Gemuser

Very well said. QF is SYD/MEL focused as that is where it is profitable.

In regards to previous posts regarding not being PER focused, lets look at why:

EK can fly to Perth and take passengers to a multitude of European, Asian and African destinations because of their geographical location making them an airline suited to offer this service. Look at QF, the best they can offer is SIN as this will connect to their LHR and FRA flights, as well as with JQ Asia for Asian destinations.The only other destinations that will work for QF are ones with enough O&D traffic. Tokyo was once good, however no longer is profitable, hence they have cut it. It is really the same principle for QF on the whole, however they can offer more destinations from SYD/MEL as they have a larger population and more O&D traffic so can make other destinations profitable.

In regards to South Africa flights, QF and SA are in an agreement of some form (which I dont know the final details) but SA stays off SYD-JNB in return for QF staying off PER-JNB. QF have evidently decided this is more profitable for them then to compete with SA on both routes.

I have said this many times, yet still some people fail to understand, that QF is disadvantaged in their geographical location (I am not saying this is the only factor but sure plays a big part). QF relies on mostly O&D traffic, as opposed to SQ/EK/EY/CX who have very little O&D in comparison and can therefore offer a wider number of international destinations.
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:22 am

Quoting weebie (Reply 14):
IMO They focused too much on Sydney and Brisbane. In Perth for instance many smaller charter carriers and Skywest have thrived through the mining boom. Even Virgin Australia has managed to get a slice of the market. Not only has Perth for instance had huge mining flights but also massive migration from South Africa and Britain. Asian and Arab airlines are doing well in Perth yet Qantas has dropped the Tokyo route and is running at a loss.

They can make money out of the East Coast, and that's all there is to it. QF is doing good business out of PER on the back of the mining boom - what do you think that fleet of 717s has been doing recently? Now they're expanding their operations with Q400s, which just shows the success that they are having out West. The only reason Skywest has done so well is on price...

QF codeshares on the daily SA flight to JNB (as part of an agreement with SA that sees QF get the SYD route to themselves) and has double daily flights to SIN from PER allowing easy connections to the exact same flights to Europe as are available from SYD. If QF is unable to make money on PER-NRT (which is a monopoly btw) then I believe them when they say they have to drop it...

Quoting weebie (Reply 14):
Success stories like Emirates and Air Asia are examples of QF neglecting markets. It seems like their business was too pacific based and when more carriers came into that Market they appear to be struggling.

People forget that QF's job is not to serve Australian markets with air links overseas - since their privatisation, the job of the airline has been to make money. If they cannot make money ADL then why are they going to bother serving it more than it is today? It is interesting to note that none of the Middle Eastern airlines serve ADL either, and that many of the carriers who operate into SYD/MEL/BNE/PER have no flights into ADL. Pretty obvious to me that the market isn't massive, even just considering there aren't much more than a million people living in the airport's catchment...

Quoting gemuser (Reply 15):
You know I get a bit sick of this tirade, from many posters, (I am NOT singling out weebie) who think QF is too SYD/MEL focused and too pacific focused

   100% agree. QF operates where the profits are for them.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:39 pm

Quoting truemanQLD (Reply 16):
EK can fly to Perth and take passengers to a multitude of European, Asian and African destinations because of their geographical location making them an airline suited to offer this service. Look at QF, the best they can offer is SIN as this will connect to their LHR and FRA flights, as well as with JQ Asia for Asian destinations.The only other destinations that will work for QF are ones with enough O&D traffic.
Quoting qf002 (Reply 17):
Quoting gemuser (Reply 15):
You know I get a bit sick of this tirade, from many posters, (I am NOT singling out weebie) who think QF is too SYD/MEL focused and too pacific focused

100% agree. QF operates where the profits are for them.

I am in the camp that it doesn't make sense to compare EK, EY,etc. to QF. QF's geography and things such as labour laws, etc. make it difficult for QF to directly compared with the aforementioned carriers.

What I do blame QF however is for "lack of vision" and "too slow" to react market forces (mind you, this is nothing new in many companies across many spectrum - take a look at Hewlett Packard the past few days). Its not as if this was an "all of the sudden tsunami from nowhere" and QF were caught "flat-footed". To the contrary, many of these changes have been happening over the past number of years.

I think Joyce is making some tough decisions (which is good). Hopefully it will pan out. That being said, I hope they have a "Plan-B" filed away somewhere..  
"Up the Irons!"
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:47 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
Plan-B

Jetstar?   
 
qfa787380
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:49 pm

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:38 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
Jetstar?

Isn't that Plan A, B and C 
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:41 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
Plan-B

Jetstar?
Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 20):
Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
Jetstar?

Isn't that Plan A, B and C

  ....I'm not too enthused about it.... 
"Up the Irons!"
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:49 am

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 20):
Isn't that Plan A, B and C 

   Just plans A & J though...
 
thegeek
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:15 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
I am in the camp that it doesn't make sense to compare EK, EY,etc. to QF. QF's geography and things such as labour laws, etc. make it difficult for QF to directly compared with the aforementioned carriers.

What I do blame QF however is for "lack of vision" and "too slow" to react market forces (mind you, this is nothing new in many companies across many spectrum - take a look at Hewlett Packard the past few days). Its not as if this was an "all of the sudden tsunami from nowhere" and QF were caught "flat-footed". To the contrary, many of these changes have been happening over the past number of years.

I agree. I find it a bit difficult to criticise their PER plans, but in ADL SQ & CX are both daily with an A333. I'd have to think that ADL-LHR on QF is constrained by the poor connections in SIN, just like BNE people have had to put up with mediocre connections in HKG (and I think SIN). Fixing BNE-HKG-LHR a few years ago in one direction only? What was that?
 
Flyingsottsman
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:32 pm

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:55 pm

Quoting richardw (Thread starter):
the disappearance of AN and the takeover of VQ?

They were happy when AN went down, they took over Impulse because that was a competiter on the domestic routes and they didnt expect nor take serioulsy Virgin Blue ( now Virgin Australia) and how big they would get.

Quoting weebie (Reply 14):
IMO They focused too much on Sydney and Brisbane

No they focused to much on SYD and expected every one else in Australia to fly to Sydney to connect to international flights. Now people in Melb,Bris,Perth, have a bigger choice of airlines with better services.
 
Quokka
Posts: 1315
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 24):
No they focused to much on SYD and expected every one else in Australia to fly to Sydney to connect to international flights. Now people in Melb,Bris,Perth, have a bigger choice of airlines with better services.

I disagree that they expected everyone - only 90%   But seriously, passengers travelling from PER to Asian and European destinations could fly to SIN for example and connect there.

While carriers like EK have obviously gained market share on traffic to Europe much of the damage occurred before they entered the PER market. Asian carriers had already made significant inroads. The withdrawal of BA from PER may have benefit QF, but passengers may equally have gone to SQ or EK.

While it seems logical that if 60% of the population of Australia is based in the SE, that is where QF should concentrate, but populations do not always translate into yields. I assume that yields from the SE must be higher than yields from elsewhere, despite the mining boom and talk of a two-speed economy.

A question to those in the know about the withdrawal of the PER - NRT, is the decision based on post nuclear incident falls in numbers of pax or was the route uneconomic previously?
 
thegeek
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting richardw (Thread starter):
the disappearance of AN and the takeover of VQ?

Or did the rise of DJ and the Middle East carriers diminish these opportunities?

I say all of the above! I'm not sure how they could have done more to take advantage of their competitors going, but DJ did basically the same things.
 
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vhqpa
Posts: 1703
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:18 am

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 24):
they didnt expect nor take serioulsy Virgin Blue ( now Virgin Australia) and how big they would get.

That is true I was going through the archives and I found this gem

QF: Virgin Won't Last Long! (by Capt.Picard May 29 2001 in Civil Aviation)

I love how the media release in the thread starter is by none other then Mr Borghetti himself.

Capital "I" for Irony right there.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Did QF Make The Best Of...

Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:33 am

Quoting vhqpa (Reply 27):
I love how the media release in the thread starter is by none other then Mr Borghetti himself.

 

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