TN486
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Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:27 am

Good evening all. In thread #52 we discussed: Australian Aviation Thread #52 (by TN486 Aug 6 2011 in Civil Aviation)
QF:
- brewing industrial trouble.
- international reorganisation.
- the 777
- Q400 to be based in PER.
- conjecture re LAN service.
TT - Back in the skies.
CZ - PEK-CAN-PER to commence with A333
VC:
- to commence MEL-HNL, BNE - HNL (comm 14 Dec 11) and domestic MEL - BNE
- new branding AIR AUSTRALIA.
Skywest: 1st ATR 72-500 arrives
Brindabella: BNE - ARM commences with a J41.
DJ - First ATR sevices announces. BNE - GLT, BNE - PQQ, SYD - PQQ and SYD-CBR.

Lots of threads re QF in recent times, the reorg thread being the dominant. Interesting times ahead. Was out at MEL this morning (Sat Aug 20), plenty of fog, very little ac movement, QF 94 A380 diverted to SYD. Enjoy #53 people, cheers
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
 
Marara
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:36 am

DJ in contact with unions to take on the employees that QF are about to lay off..... not a good look for QF right now.
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
TN486
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:42 am

The link to the reorg thread: Qantas International Announcement (by tayser Aug 15 2011 in Civil Aviation)
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:15 pm

Quoting Marara (Reply 1):
DJ in contact with unions to take on the employees that QF are about to lay off..... not a good look for QF right now.

Now isnt that just the biggest publicity stunt ever! DJ comes to the rescue of all the hard-working Aussie battlers that the big-bad Qantas has laid off... the sad thing is, that it will probably be worth their while. Also, what most people seem to fail to remember, is that most of the job losses will be voluntary redundancies so staff will either retire (and get a nice payout) or move to another airline (and still get a nice big payout), it is hardly a loss for them, only the unions. Whether you are a QF-hater o not (and it appears I am the odd one out on a.net for not hating QF), you must agree that the unions are playing some role in the QF downward spiral recently. QF workers have some of the best pay/work conditions in the world, yet the unions demand more and more. I am all for unions in theory, however the QF unions, and it appears all those in Australia that take care of privatised businesses, are greedy and money-hungry and, unfortunately, QF is powerless to stop them.
 
carnoc
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:40 pm

Looks like cost-saving is also affecting the government as http://bit.ly/qtWBKD says the Australian Federal Police is cutting down on the number of air security officers (the Australian version of so-called "air marshals"), although the government doesn't believe this will translate into lowered security/safety, but this certainly means more job losses for the Australians. Do you guys think measures such as stepping up security screening at airports and introducing hardened cockpit doors etc. can replace the usefulness of Australian air security officers?

Regards.
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:04 am

Quoting carnoc (Reply 4):
Do you guys think measures such as stepping up security screening at airports and introducing hardened cockpit doors etc. can replace the usefulness of Australian air security officers?

Seeing as I've never seen or heard of any reports of an 'air security officer' actually doing anything, yes. I don't think that security needs to get any tighter though, just more effective and efficient...
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:53 am

Quoting truemanQLD (Reply 3):
QF workers have some of the best pay/work conditions in the world, yet the unions demand more and more. I am all for unions in theory, however the QF unions, and it appears all those in Australia that take care of privatised businesses, are greedy and money-hungry and, unfortunately, QF is powerless to stop them.

Ciorrect.

They dont know how good they have it, and just keep pushing for more. The greed of a few may well have been their downfall unfortunately, much like AN's situation.

Quoting truemanQLD (Reply 3):
Now isnt that just the biggest publicity stunt ever! DJ comes to the rescue of all the hard-working Aussie battlers that the big-bad Qantas has laid off... the sad thing is, that it will probably be worth their while.

Of course.

If they need staff, they can take on highly skilled ex-QF people, pay them less, stating to the union that its better they have jobs than none at all  
 
AJ
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:59 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 6):
They dont know how good they have it, and just keep pushing for more. The greed of a few may well have been their downfall unfortunately, much like AN's situation.

From what I have seen the unions are not asking for money over CPI, I am not sure how this is 'greed'.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:12 am

^^ Its not just money it seems, but extra things on top. The pay demands are also reported to be well above the figure you have stated.

Overall, they are already some of the highest paid in the industry, yet wanting more, in times like these, really smells of pure greed. No one is saying that QF management are innocent in all of this, but they certainly have little chance of doing much if anything proposed is blocked. At the end of the day, I would hate to see QF go the way of AN, but its a finer line between both situations than many would care to imagine.

Before someone goes on to say its another anti-union rant, I'm not against the idea of unions, just their actions and ways of handling situations, especially through my own experiences.

[Edited 2011-08-21 00:21:27]
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:21 am

Quoting truemanQLD (Reply 3):
I am all for unions in theory, however the QF unions, and it appears all those in Australia that take care of privatised businesses, are greedy and money-hungry and, unfortunately, QF is powerless to stop them.

It takes two to tango. Always.

If the Qantas staff are so well-rewarded, they got there because management agreed.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:23 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
It takes two to tango. Always.

If the Qantas staff are so well-rewarded, they got there because management agreed.

Did they, or were they forced into those actions to appease unions?

Theres different ways of looking at that logic.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:26 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 10):
Did they, or were they forced into those actions to appease unions?

Why appease the unions? What's wrong with saying no? Industrial action? That's happened before and companies have survived.

Conversely, on the union side, what's wrong with asking for more?

mariner
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IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:36 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
Why appease the unions? What's wrong with saying no? Industrial action? That's happened before and companies have survived.

Indiustrial action is extremely costly, causing damage to a brands image, and is just a militant style action anyway, designed to get a desired outcome for one party only. Its certainly not something management would choose to go down if they can avoid it. In this case, they see it as a business critical situation to hold their ground, thus bringing aout the situation we have today.

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
Conversely, on the union side, what's wrong with asking for more?

Nothing, but compromise never really seems top of the agenda in these situations from unions, from my previous experience anyway. Its strike first, talk later in many cases. Not exactly a fair position is it?



[Edited 2011-08-21 00:44:09]
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:40 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
Why appease the unions? What's wrong with saying no? Industrial action? That's happened before and companies have survived.

Because then you get this situation like we are seeing at the moment. The public perception of the company is being seriously damaged and tarnished because the QF unions are so loud and boisterous in their attacks of the company and management. It distracts from the core business of actually operating an airline.

Industrial action is a big deal. It disrupts the plans of thousands of people and shows a complete lack of respect on the part of the workers for those people they are paid to serve. It's not all about the impacts of striking on the company's profits that quarter (though that's a big issue).

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
Conversely, on the union side, what's wrong with asking for more?

They're not 'asking' any more. They are demanding, and attempting to hold the company hostage to achieve those means. Asking means that you respect the decision that is made and move on... The unions are reaching a stage now where they are employing more spin and exaggeration that QF themselves are (at least IMO) in order to force management into giving in, and that's a complete contradiction to what the unions are there for: to protect the rights of the workers they represent. That's not what this is anymore - it's a bid to grab everything they can before the airline starts making the hard decisions.
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:06 am

Qantas breaching the Qantas Sale Act.

From the Qantas Sale Act:

Quote:
(e) prohibit Qantas from taking any action to bring about a change of its company name to a name that does not include the expression “Qantas”; and
(f) prohibit Qantas from conducting scheduled international air transport passenger services under a name other than:
(i) its company name; or
(ii) a registered business name that includes the expression “Qantas”; and
(g) require that the head office of Qantas always be located in Australia; and
(h) require that of the facilities, taken in aggregate, which are used by Qantas in the provision of scheduled international air transport services (for example, facilities for the maintenance and housing of aircraft, catering, flight operations, training and administration), the facilities located in Australia, when compared with those located in any other country, must represent the principal operational centre for Qantas; and
(i) require that, at all times, at least two‑thirds of the directors of Qantas are to be Australian citizens; and
(j) require that, at a meeting of the board of directors of Qantas, the director presiding at the meeting (however described) must be an Australian citizen; and
(k) prohibit Qantas, at all times, from taking any action to become incorporated outside Australia.
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:07 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 12):
Indiustrial action is extremely costly, causing damage to a brands image, and is just a militant style action anyway, designed to get a desired outcome for one party only. Its certainly not something management would choose to go down if they can avoid it. In this case, they see it as a business critical situation to hold their ground, thus bringing aout the situation we have today.

It may be militant (what's the problem there?) but it seldom reaches an outcome for one side only. There is almost always a compromise.

I don't know that the British Airways brand has suffered too much because of their recent brutal strikes. If anything, the public was on the side of the airline.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 12):
Nothing, but compromise never really seems top of the agenda in these situations from unions, from my previous experience anyway. Its strike first, talk later in many cases. Not exactly a fair position is it?

Why not? They can only ask. Management has the power to say yes or no. Management signs the cheques.

mariner
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NTLDaz
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:19 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 13):

Hi all,

This is my first ever post after reading for years. I have been inclined to join today after reading posts bashing Qantas unions. I'm sorry to say but the protection of a national icon is a fairly serious issue. Qantas exectutives taking their bonuses and massive salaries carries little weight with me. For an airline to be making reasonable profits in the current environment to be crying poor is a little hard to take. I don't want to be disrepectful but some teenage and Gen Y members on here may need to understand the importance Unions have played in protecting the rights of the workers over the preceding decades. I say this with no involvement with Qantas at all apart from being a long time FF.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:30 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
Why not? They can only ask. Management has the power to say yes or no. Management signs the cheques.

Once again, theres asking, and theres demanding. People are entitled to ask what ever they like, but very often, thats not what happens. Management can say yes or no, very right there, and they do sign the cheques. Should a business be held to ransom though for saying that there are severe issues with agreeing to a deal, which unions will then take industrial action to try and push through anyway? Those signing the cheques also know the true position of the finances of a firm afterall.

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
It may be militant (what's the problem there?) but it seldom reaches an outcome for one side only. There is almost always a compromise.

There may well be, but how much damage is incurred in the process, especially if it drags on? If a compromise is reached, it may very well be at the businesses loss, for the lost income during the action and having to agree to a deal that is less than ideal for a business to incur.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:42 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 17):
hose signing the cheques also know the true position of the finances of a firm afterall.

It doesn't make management always right.

At Southwest Airlines, one of the most successful airlines in the world, the founder, Mr. Kelleher, once sacked the CEO, in part because he could not cut a deal with the flight attendants.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 17):
There may well be, but how much damage is incurred in the process, especially if it drags on? If a compromise is reached, it may very well be at the businesses loss, for the lost income during the action and having to agree to a deal that is less than ideal for a business to incur.

It very seldom comes to the point of industrial action.

What is happening now at Qantas is unusual because management has chosen to rewrite the basics of the business model. I imagine there will be problems.

mariner
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qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:01 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
It may be militant (what's the problem there?) but it seldom reaches an outcome for one side only. There is almost always a compromise.

Management doesn't want to pay any extra. Therefore, any extra that action brings about is a win for the unions.

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
Why not? They can only ask. Management has the power to say yes or no. Management signs the cheques.

This has gone beyond asking! They asked, management said no, yet here we are debating about it. I am all for the employees of Qantas getting more money, better conditions etc (they do an outstanding job IMO), but a company cannot guarantee long term job security for all of its employees.

Quoting NTLDaz (Reply 16):
This is my first ever post after reading for years. I have been inclined to join today after reading posts bashing Qantas unions. I'm sorry to say but the protection of a national icon is a fairly serious issue. Qantas exectutives taking their bonuses and massive salaries carries little weight with me. For an airline to be making reasonable profits in the current environment to be crying poor is a little hard to take. I don't want to be disrepectful but some teenage and Gen Y members on here may need to understand the importance Unions have played in protecting the rights of the workers over the preceding decades. I say this with no involvement with Qantas at all apart from being a long time FF.

Welcome!

I do not think that this thread is 'bashing' QF unions at all, I think that it is rather a healthy debate and discussion about the current situation. The role of an union is to protect the rights of its members (I assume that we can agree on that point), it is not the role of a union to send out press release after press release shifting public focus towards facts and opinions that have been spun together on the basis of little fact, or on the basis of rumor and speculation. What the unions have created in this situation is a media war between management and their members, and rather than solving any of the problems at hand, this is heightening them.

I am all for the unions and their work. I agree that they have helped to fundamentally shape labour today, but I think that what the QF unions are engaging in at the moment is the wrong way for them to achieve their goals. Remember, only 1000 jobs have been made redundant, and there is no sign of more to go. The business is not contracting any more at this stage, and it is no more than speculation to say that QF is preparing to close up and head to Asia. Yet the unions will have you believe the opposite.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:45 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
Management doesn't want to pay any extra. Therefore, any extra that action brings about is a win for the unions.

I don't see how that relates to what I said. There is almost always a compromise.

There are companies that have impeccable industrial relations, in part because both sides - both - agree that it is in their mutual interest.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
This has gone beyond asking!

Probably because this has gone beyond "usual behaviour" by management.

Qantas is a national institution, Australians are going to have strong opinions about it, and you might as well dump on the press as well. A lot of commentators have issues with what Qantas plans. Over at Crikey, for example, a respected voice like Ben Sandilands has stated his negative opinion loudly and often.

Only a very few years ago, Qantas and the BOD assured us that the future lay in selling the airline to market speculators. But hindsight shows us maybe that wasn't such a good idea:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...ssing/story-e6frg90f-1111117916161

"THE collapse of last year's $11 billion takeover offer for Qantas was a near miss for the national airline, which today would be struggling to remain competitive if its private equity predators had succeeded in their debt-funded bid.

Analysts said that, at best, Qantas would now be drawing on cash reserves to pay weekly interest bills of $20million and would have embarked on a massive cost-cutting and asset-sale drive to cope with the downturn striking all airlines."


Why should I - or "the unions" - assume that the right decisions are being made now?

mariner
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ADDICT4QF
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:38 pm

I wouldn't call what they are making at the moment a reasonable profit or sustainable profit, and the current environment, I believe, is here to stay for sometime. If they make their expected $0.5Bn (before tax) profit this year, I can imagine what the headlines will be like after Tuesday, given that they are making 1,000 jobs redundant. HOWEVER, the reality is, that the profit that they make this financial year will cover the equivalent cost of one 1 QANTAS A380. What about all the other CAPEX that they need to outlay? B787s, reinvestment in product etc etc etc.


It's about time that Qantas Engineers, Pilots and Cabin Crew started moving towards the International Market rate of pay. I'm not saying that they should earn Asian wages, given the higher costs of living in Australia, but be abit more realistic in their demands. Also, I cannot understand this business in relation to have Job Security Clauses in their EBAs. Which employer guarentees you your job???

Also, Unions keep going on about how Qantas has a reputation for safety and that's going to go down the drain with the impended restructuring of the international business. Well, unfortunately, consumers are not too fussed about paying a premium for safety, evident by the fact that less Aussies are choosing to fly Qantas when going overseas, and are more interested in getting a cheap ticket. If the unions did not drive the cost of labour at Qantas so high over the last 10 years, Qantas would still be flying to the seven destinations it used to fly to in Europe as it would be profitable to do so, and the workforce would be rewarded through bonuses each year.

I don't understand how the Unions can think that the business can go on as it has in its current state, with the uncompetitive cost base, driven by Manpower costs... If anything is going to bring the airline down, its people striking and annoying customers to the point where they fly with competitors.


And finally, the changes announced last week have minor impact on the Qantas International business- 2 half routes are gone, one route is being tweaked, and a new airline is going to be started which is to take advantage of the opportunity in asia- its got nothing to do with Qantas flying into and out of asia; if anything its going to help qantas international as it will provide qantas flights into singapore with better connectivity to other asian destination and therefore make more people fly qantas to singapore. There was nothing about offshoring jobs, or route replacement by this new airline...

p.s. sorry for my rant!!!  

[Edited 2011-08-21 05:41:21]
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:35 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
you might as well dump on the press as well.

The press have played their role, but that shouldn't distract from the discussion at hand.

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
Why should I - or "the unions" - assume that the right decisions are being made now?

I never said that you should. But is it the role of the unions to draw the public into this debate? Is it the role of the unions to put spin on speculation then present it to the public as fact through what I would describe as almost being a fear campaign?

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 21):
And finally, the changes announced last week have minor impact on the Qantas International business

   Bang on. It is speculation and spin that is fueling this entire debate.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:40 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 8):
^^ Its not just money it seems, but extra things on top. The pay demands are also reported to be well above the figure you have stated.

Most QF staff have not been given a pay rise over the rate of inflation for the past decade! On the other hand management and the board have been getting payrises far in excess of anything they should be getting and far above inflation. CX has doubled in profit and it's shareprice has gone up. It's CEO is payed less than half what QF pays it's top management.
Once again it's the workers that end up paying for management to be payed multimillions (at higher levels than most comparable companies most of which provide greater shareholder return). Cut the CEO and others pay from 100x the average Qantas workers pay down to 15x and see how much money that saves and what better relations staff have with management.
64 types. 44 countries. 24 airlines.
 
StickShaker
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:41 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 14):
Qantas breaching the Qantas Sale Act.

From the Qantas Sale Act:



The problem is that the Qantas Sale Act only pertains to Qantas. It doesn't regulate Jetstar, Jetstar Asia or any potential new carriers in wich QF may have a stake. The Qantas Sale Act has not prevented the transfer of assets, maintenance or labour from QF to JQ - effectively boosting JQ's bottom line while suppressing that of QF. Neither has it prevented the basing of JQ 330's along with foreign crews in SIN who regularly perform Aus - SIN sectors.
QF are expected to have a 49% or less stake in the two new Asia based carriers and they won't use the name Qantas.

Again - the Act only regulates QF so Joyce has effectively bypassed the Act by using other vehicles to achieve aims that are expressly forbidden by the Act if doen through QF.

Standard contemporary corporate behaviour.


Regards,
StickShaker
 
jacobin777
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 23):
Most QF staff have not been given a pay rise over the rate of inflation for the past decade!

Maybe they have been overpaid to start with? Ostensibly, it seems "the market" is judging what pay should be. Since we live in an ever-increasing "connected" world, it becomes even easier and more transparent.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 23):
On the other hand management and the board have been getting payrises far in excess of anything they should be getting and far above inflation.

1)We see this happening globally. While you state CX's situation, it ostensibly seems to be the exception rather than the norm.
2)Many CEO's, executives get paid in stock options which means:
a)if the stock does bad so does their bonus/pay
b)doesn't take away from direct cash flow-where as ostensibly over-paying (according to market forces) certainly does
3)Many mid-level employees don't have the "job protection" unions have.
4)There is always the ability for further education and move to management jobs.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 23):
CX has doubled in profit and it's shareprice has gone up. It's CEO is payed less than half what QF pays it's top management.
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 23):
Cut the CEO and others pay from 100x the average Qantas workers pay down to 15x and see how much money that saves and what better relations staff have with management.


See above..

I do admit however, ostensibly, it doesn't seem QF management aren't in good terms with employees. I think Management need to become a bit more "engaged" with employees. That would help a little.

That being said, its also up to the union heads to work with management as well.

As an example, for years we have heard how AA management is "screwing over" AA employees. Yet recently, even the new union head is on record stating that many of the demands by the previous union head wasn't/isn't practical in today's environment.
"Up the Irons!"
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:16 pm

^^ Great analysis.

It certainly points to many things I also believe to be the case, and joins the relevance of the global market QF operates in.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
I do admit however, ostensibly, it doesn't seem QF management aren't in good terms with employees. I think Management need to become a bit more "engaged" with employees.

Leadership flows from the top.

The CEO is captain of the ship and is responsible for the welfare of it and all of its crew. The CEO doesn't have to be "liked", particularly, but it surely helps if he is respected. He can been combative, if necessary, he can be the paternal sometimes, but it is essential that it is all perceived as being for the good of the ship and honesty about the circumstances is often a good start.

I have no doubt that Mr. Joyce is a great bean counter (I suspect that is why he got the job) but I think the p.r. of selling these present proposals has been lacking.

Example: we have been told for months that international mainline is a disaster area, yet what has been presented to solve that stated problem is, as someone else has said, very minor.

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 21):
And finally, the changes announced last week have minor impact on the Qantas International business- 2 half routes are gone, one route is being tweaked

So either there is a lot more to come, the other shoe, or international mainline was not as great a problem as we have so frequently been led to believe.

Which is it?

mariner

[Edited 2011-08-21 12:55:48]
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eaglefarm4
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:55 pm

Bring back TAA i say,what a great airline working for them was so respected by management.Sure it was Government but it was a great airline.Qantas could learn so much from their staff as they are the building blocks of all companies.Respect the staff and their ideas,pay them well and the company will be rewarded.

I have known so many staff over the last 20 years or so that have lost their jobs with Qantas through redundancies or voluntary retirement and yet each year they have made record profits.It has never made sense,well actually it has, make more money with less staff to pay.

Trueman, Virgin is really the hero coming to the rescue of staff, but it takes a lot to get over inbuilt egos.
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qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:04 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
The CEO is captain of the ship and is responsible for the welfare of it and all of its crew. The CEO doesn't have to be "liked", particularly, but it surely helps if he is respected. He can been combative, if necessary, he can be the paternal sometimes, but it is essential that it is all perceived as being for the good of the ship and honesty about the circumstances is often a good start.

Agreed. Increases should be consistent across the entire employee base, and if the vast majority of employees are being refused additional conditions/pay then senior management should be the same.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:15 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 23):
Most QF staff have not been given a pay rise over the rate of inflation for the past decade!

Um, welcome to the private sector?

Seriously, the only workers I know of that are pretty much guaranteed inflation-indexed pay rises are in the public sector. And even then there have been pay freezes for the past 3 years, in New Zealand at least. Friends across the financial sector haven't had pay rises in four years. And that's four years of fairly significant inflation.

Keeping perspective is usually the downfall in these industrial disputes that rely so heavily on puvblic opinion. It happened in the UK recently with public transport strikes. As soon as it was revealed what tube drivers were paid, public opinion turned sour and the strikes wound down.

If you're moaning about getting pay rises based solely on inflation, then QF employees are heading for a fall on this one. and given the nature of the industry, whereby its competing with international airlines that don't operate under the same work conditions as Australia, then I'm mystified as to why it's such a surprise that management eventually pulls the plug and goes for a confrontation.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:21 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 23):
Most QF staff have not been given a pay rise over the rate of inflation for the past decade! On the other hand management and the board have been getting payrises far in excess of anything they should be getting and far above inflation

Should QF workers get a pay rise above inflation? Why, when they are on some the best wages in the world (for their job), should they be given a pay rise above inflation? That is crazy! Like it or not, QF (and every other private-business), isnt there to make every employee rich, they are there to make money for their share holders / owners / investors.

In regards to the wages of management, I think most people on here fail to realise the enormity of the job QF management, or management of any airline for that matter, have. They are highly educated, top-of-the-class workers who have put in incredible amounts of effort to get to where they are. They arent just dragged off the street. Also, while it is great to have a whinge about QF management wages, put it in perspective, most CEO's of companies a lot smaller than QF are on bigger salaries. QF wants to attract the best management and the only way to do this is to offer very good wages, and yes, there are exceptions to this (such as CX) but on the whole it is true.

Like it or not, AJ was chosen because he was thought to be the best man for the job (I know many here disagree, but that is really irrelevant). In his time at QF, QF domestic is booming, the QF group is still turning a profit, JQ has grown and in the future will grow the QF group throughout Asia. He has done a pretty good job if you ask me. QF International was always going to have trouble, irrelevant of who was in control. Maybe he acted on it to late, however the delays of the A380 and 787 have certainly not helped.

In regard to unions, I think they fail to realise that there constant demands are not helping their cause, rather QF is more and more likely to send work off shore.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:17 am

Quoting truemanQLD (Reply 31):
Like it or not, AJ was chosen because he was thought to be the best man for the job (I know many here disagree, but that is really irrelevant). In his time at QF, QF domestic is booming, the QF group is still turning a profit, JQ has grown and in the future will grow the QF group throughout Asia. He has done a pretty good job if you ask me. QF International was always going to have trouble, irrelevant of who was in control. Maybe he acted on it to late, however the delays of the A380 and 787 have certainly not helped.

Very true. AJ is not a well liked person by many it seems, but its not exactly an easy job. Sometimes people get alittle annoyed by what he says, as I have also at times, but looking at things broader just shows how hard things are for them.

JB has enacted a very similar strategy at VA/DJ, which just shows that he would have likely had to of made the same tough decisions, but instead of growing the business (as he is now), it would have to shrink to achieve it.

Quoting truemanQLD (Reply 31):
In regard to unions, I think they fail to realise that there constant demands are not helping their cause, rather QF is more and more likely to send work off shore.

Correct. Its the way things go, as it just puts more pressure on the bottom line.
 
Ditzyboy
Posts: 298
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 21):
It's about time that Qantas Engineers, Pilots and Cabin Crew started moving towards the International Market rate of pay.

Both the domestic and international arms of the FAAA have agreed to the establishment of fully-owned subsidiaries engaged solely to supply cabin crew to Qantas at 'market rates'. QCCA was set up in 2008 to supply cabin crew to Long Haul and A380 divisions. QD was set up in late 2009 to supply cabin crew for our domestic operation. Both offer conditions of employment that are extremely competitive in the Australian market.

Jetconnect supply cabin crew to Qantas Long Haul division on local conditions. There is also the London base, where local hires are employed on seemingly less than market rates. This was made possible, in part, due to the FAAA agreeing on an increase in overseas-based flight attendants.

To say that "it's about time" for cabin crew unions to work with the company or move toward market rates of pay is completely misguided and ill-informed.

[Edited 2011-08-21 21:48:38]
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:45 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 32):
AJ is not a well liked person by many it seems, but its not exactly an easy job.

No one ever said it was easy.

Quoting truemanQLD (Reply 31):
In regards to the wages of management, I think most people on here fail to realise the enormity of the job QF management, or management of any airline for that matter, have. They are highly educated, top-of-the-class workers who have put in incredible amounts of effort to get to where they are. They arent just dragged off the street.

Just because they are managers doesn't make them infallible and it is a simple fact that not all managers are equal. There are good managers and - despite their education - there are "not good" managers.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:55 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
No one ever said it was easy.

At times, you seem to have been suggesting it was  
Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
Just because they are managers doesn't make them infallible and it is a simple fact that not all managers are equal. There are good managers and - despite their education - there are "not good" managers.

Correct, but in a market like executive recruitment, things are not as simple as you make out. You employ people based on their experience and qualifications, and in that sector of the workforce, people dont come cheap, especially given the competition to secure the best people is high.

[Edited 2011-08-21 22:00:28]
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:09 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 35):
At times, you seem to have been suggesting it was

The you are seriously misreading my posts. I think ti is a formidably difficult job and one that very quickly sorts out those who can lead and those who can't.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:29 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
The you are seriously misreading my posts. I think ti is a formidably difficult job and one that very quickly sorts out those who can lead and those who can't.

Maybe your message isnt clear, because that certainly wasnt what was coming through from your comments  

I agree with that in some way. Still think you are going at it by simplistic reasoning though, but we will have to agree to disagree on the finer details of that.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:41 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 37):
Maybe your message isnt clear, because that certainly wasnt what was coming through from your comments

I can't imagine what I have written that has given you that idea.

I've watched senior management jobs destroy some good (and very well educated and experienced) candidates. I can't do it - I don't have the interest, the leadership skills or the over-riding need to win.

Still, if you think I'm being simplistic, I'll just -  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:54 am

For those interested, the LHR changes come into effect on March 25th of next year - QF31/32 becomes QF1/2 and there are currently no SYD-BKK flights bookable via their website. The Qantas Source is also reporting that MEL-HKG will become an A330 route (due to lack of F or W availability).

Will be interesting to see what they decide to do with BKK.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:20 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 39):
The Qantas Source is also reporting that MEL-HKG will become an A330 route (due to lack of F or W availability).

Thats not unexpected.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 39):
Will be interesting to see what they decide to do with BKK.

I can see it becoming a candidate for A330 service also, considering it will not likely be a main premium priority route.
 
qf002
Posts: 3606
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:26 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 40):
I can see it becoming a candidate for A330 service also, considering it will not likely be a main premium priority route.

Depends on aircraft availability as well though... The A333 fleet is going to be pushed with the extra MEL-HKG flight in addition to what they're already doing, and there's hardly a shortage of 744s at QF these days.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:50 am

^^ True. Your likely right there.

I cant really see SYD-BKK needing any more capacity though, or increased standard of product offering, than MEL-HKG, especially now that the focus has moved to SIN and to a lesser extent HKG (increased BA services LHR-HKG, new F lounge).
 
qf002
Posts: 3606
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:01 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 42):
I cant really see SYD-BKK needing any more capacity though, or increased standard of product offering, than MEL-HKG, especially now that the focus has moved to SIN and to a lesser extent

I'd say the non-reconfigured 744s will be assigned to the route until QF is getting good numbers of 787s at which stage I'd say either an A333 or a B789 would do the trick.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:33 am

To put my 2 cents in regarding Qantas and its future all you need to do is look at;

http://www.iasc.gov.au/applications/files/4648.pdf - Qantas starting to codeshare on Jetstar Asia between SIN and BKK;

http://www.iasc.gov.au/applications/files/4639.pdf - Qantas applying for an additonal 7,350 of weekly seats between Australia and Indonesia for Jetstar;

http://www.iasc.gov.au/applications/files/4637.pdf - and the most interesting announcement yet - Qantas applying for a daily A330-200 service between Australia and China to commence from late 2011;

etc etc

Qantas has 2 A330-200's coming into the fleet in FY12 and 1 in FY13 which will allow Jetstar to expand until it starts to get 787's. That would cover QF eventually shifting SYD-BKK to JQ, additional Indonesia capacity and starting Australia - China service.

QF domestic will receive 23 738's, 6 Q400's, 2 717's and 10 F100's between FY12 and FY18. In the same time period QF International gets 4 A380's. So what is the future of Qantas long haul international? LHR, FRA, SIN, HKG, BOM, LAX, SCL, NRT, PVG and JNB.
 
VH-BZF
Posts: 745
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:58 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 23):
Most QF staff have not been given a pay rise over the rate of inflation for the past decade! On the other hand management and the board have been getting payrises far in excess of anything they should be getting and far above inflation. CX has doubled in profit and it's shareprice has gone up. It's CEO is payed less than half what QF pays it's top management.

I don't think this is correct! I have friends who are employed at QF and their last EBA saw a 3 x 3% pay increase, totalling 9%. Whilst I'm not here to stand up for Alan Joyce, he did tell Helen Dally on Business Day - Foxtel, that executives in QF did not have a pay rise until 2010 (the normal 3%) and in fact were on a pay freeze for 3 years prior over the GFC.

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 21):
I wouldn't call what they are making at the moment a reasonable profit or sustainable profit, and the current environment, I believe, is here to stay for sometime. If they make their expected $0.5Bn (before tax) profit this year, I can imagine what the headlines will be like after Tuesday, given that they are making 1,000 jobs redundant. HOWEVER, the reality is, that the profit that they make this financial year will cover the equivalent cost of one 1 QANTAS A380. What about all the other CAPEX that they need to outlay? B787s, reinvestment in product etc etc etc.

Good point!

BZF
Ansett Australia - (was) One of the worlds great airlines!
 
TN486
Topic Author
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:08 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:59 am

Quoting eaglefarm4 (Reply 28):
Bring back TAA i say

LOL, I will drink to that (it must be remembered they operated in a very protected environment.)

Quoting sydscott (Reply 44):
To put my 2 cents in regarding Qantas and its future all you need to do is look at;

A great synopsis of the future. All there in a nutshell. Two questions that have been bugging me: Where are they sourcing the 2 717's, and similarly, where are there spare F100's?
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
 
travelhound
Posts: 1932
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:30 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
I have no doubt that Mr. Joyce is a great bean counter (I suspect that is why he got the job) but I think the p.r. of selling these present proposals has been lacking.

I think the PR is a little bit more sophisticated than you suggest.

If we go back to when all of this started, we have had a fairly consistent message that QF International is a broken business. I would suggest the majority of us, even if we don't agree with the message understand this as being a cornerstone of QF's re-building program.

The reality is, what is happening at QF at the moment is not solely about the QANTAS International business. It's about a re-postioning of the business around an Asian based strategy, that includes Jetstar and a new unnamed premium Asian based carrier. QANTAS International is only part of the story.

Now, I'm not a cynic by any means, but I'd suggest the Australian public is sympathetic to QANTAS on the basis of the International business being broken and the role of rogue unions undermining the business. I would think if the Australian public (and including politicians) had not received, didn't understand this message or didn't accept it as fact, the Asia centric aspect of this new strategy would have received far more scrutiny than it has.

If it had received far more scrutiny, than I'd also suggest the Australian public would be fairly upset with QF at the moment.

On this basis, the public face of Allan Joyce that has delivered this message may well be simply a product of a well orchestrated marketing campaign.

[Edited 2011-08-22 05:36:12]
 
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allrite
Posts: 2587
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:01 pm

Flew on DJ's new Capital Connect service today (though on an E170). Had a few hiccups with the service along the way with an inability to complete it, so I suspect some fine tuning is required. Wrote up the trip report if you want the details. Looks like a blatant push to get more government business, but I wonder what the reaction to the ATRs on the SYD-CBR leg will be.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
ash1111
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:24 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #53

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:24 pm

^ I'd love to see a trip report, allrite!

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