PlymSpotter
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:24 pm

Looking at pictures it really is incredible that anyone survived. RIP to those killed.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 93):
When it comes to the need for gravel kits why are not more runways surfaced with asphalt in northern Canada there days? This would allow operations with "normal" 737:s

As there are no roads to such remote locations, all workers, construction equipment and materials would either have to be flown or shipped in specially. This would at least double the cost of resurfacing the runway, making it economically unfeasible and most likely practically non viable too.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
bennett123
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:35 pm

AFAIK, this is the second B737C lostby First Air, C-GNWI was DBR in 2001 and presumably scrapped.

Not clear how many spare B737-200C's are available as replacements.

Failing that, are there any B737-200 of B737-200F that can be acquired, and modified at an e conomic cost?.
 
F9Animal
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:28 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 93):
I am certain First Airs pilots are well trained. When it comes to the need for gravel kits why are not more runways surfaced with asphalt in northern Canada there days? This would allow operations with "normal" 737:s

First Air pilots have no choice but to be well trained. I would compare their experience in flying in comparison to Alaska Airlines pilots. Look at some of the areas First Air flies in to. These pilots are very skilled, no doubt about it.

As for the loss. I am deeply saddened, and send my condolences to those affected by this. The terrain in the picture looks tough. I will await for the investigation to conclude before taking any guesses. It looks like a very hard impact.   The article also mentions that visibility was bad. From the looks of the pictures, the visibility did indeed look tough.

[Edited 2011-08-21 16:34:23]
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F9Animal
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:35 pm

I do not want to take this off topic, but I have a question. I noticed the tail in the crash photo. At first, I was positive it was not a First Air. But, looking in the data base, I was proven wrong. When did First Air change its paint scheme?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
cylw
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:01 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 90):
This may sounds strange, but having flown into YRB hundreds of times, that is usually the last choice. Mostly because of the time it takes. You almost always approach the airport from the south, so to do a complete instrument approach takes about 10 minutes longer than an approach to 35 circling to 17.

Okay, that makes sense. It's strange though that it was reported that they had reported 3 miles final for 35T. If they were planning to circle for 17, wouldnt they use different terminology?

Also, the chart I've seen states the Cat D circling minima is 700+ ft. Would they be allowed to descend below this if they had not been able to see the ground?
 
AR385
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:45 am

According to AVherald, one of the survivors is a 7 year old girl. Given how many crashes the only or one of the few survivors has been a child, what is it about children that survive unsurvivable accidents.

NW 255: 1 five year old girl
Afriquiyah crash: 1 10? year old boy
Yemenia crash in the Indian Ocean: 1 7 year old girl
Staines Trident crash: Although died later

And some more I can´t recall, but there seems there´s a pattern with children surviving impossible crashes. Or maybe It´s just me looking wrongly at the statistics.

Any opinions?
 
ltbewr
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:57 am

Could there have been a faulty sensor (pitot tube?) giving incorrect altitude on the instruments, the pilots thinking the a/c was higher than it was?
Could there have been incorrect info put into the flight computers or instruments that give info as to location that meant they were off course or lower that they expected to be?
I assume the recorders will be recovered, although this being an older a/c, may have less available information than with newer models, making it more difficult to use them to get info needed to help in this crash.
Apparently from an article I read on Huffington Post/AOL, some of the investigators involved in this crash also worked the Swissair 111 crash.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:43 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 100):
As there are no roads to such remote locations, all workers, construction equipment and materials would either have to be flown or shipped in specially. This would at least double the cost of resurfacing the runway, making it economically unfeasible and most likely practically non viable too.

...and, these gravel runways have been performing fantastically for decades. Gravel is easy to maintain, holds up much better than pavement in permafrost situations, and doesn't require any equipment more complex than the standard cats and graders to keep up to spec.
What the...?
 
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czbbflier
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:18 am

Many years ago I briefly worked for 7F at YOW and know people there still.

First Air is like a big family- everybody knows everyone. No doubt everyone will be adversely affected by this crash.

My heart goes out to everybody at First Air and everybody in Resolute.

Brian
 
woodsboy
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:23 am

Alaska has many gravel strips, some were served for many years by Alaska Airlines 737-200QCs with gravel kits and many today served by Lynden Hercs, Northern Air Cargo 737-200Fs with gravel kits, DC-6A/Bs, DC-4s, Curtis C-46s, DC-3s and many smaller aircraft. I would suggest that gravel strips offer superior traction in the winter when snow and ice cover runways and as has been discussed, gravel is often the only option for remote locations not only because of the permafrost issues but also due to the enormous cost and logistical impossibility of paving a strip in a location with no road or river access.

In my experience the accidents that occur on gravel strips are much more often due to hazards on the runway (people, vehicles including ATVs, animals such as moose and caribou) since most of these strips are uncontrolled and unattended. Barrow, Alaska has a paved runway yet it located in one of the coldest and most prone to permafrost areas of North America, the same can be said for Deadhorse at Prudhoe Bay. These strips allow the now non-gravel equipped Alaska Airlines 737-400 combis to serve these communities dependant on air cargo but a consequence of a paved runway that is covered with snow and ice much of the year is inferior braking. A DC-6 flying a full load into a shorter gravel stip needs less room to stop than when flying a full load into a longer paved strip that is icy or snow covered.
 
bennett123
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:36 am

Perhaps children survive because being smaller they can survive in spaces that are too small for an adult.
 
iberiadc852
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:33 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 105):
According to AVherald, one of the survivors is a 7 year old girl. Given how many crashes the only or one of the few survivors has been a child, what is it about children that survive unsurvivable accidents.

NW 255: 1 five year old girl
Afriquiyah crash: 1 10? year old boy
Yemenia crash in the Indian Ocean: 1 7 year old girl
Staines Trident crash: Although died later

And some more I can´t recall, but there seems there´s a pattern with children surviving impossible crashes. Or maybe It´s just me looking wrongly at the statistics.

Any opinions?

I think that deserves its own thread.

The UA-DC-8 / TW-L1049 crash over NY in 1960 a child of 8 survived although died the day after, I think.
And I think a couple of children survived JAL 123 crash (520 dead, 4 survivors).

I suppose they have less probability to be mutilated, and inerties of their bodies are smaller, but apart from that it's still a mystery to me.
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
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Jamake1
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:49 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 103):
I do not want to take this off topic, but I have a question. I noticed the tail in the crash photo. At first, I was positive it was not a First Air. But, looking in the data base, I was proven wrong. When did First Air change its paint scheme?

In answer to your question, F9, First Air introduced a series of traditional northern images beginning in 2005. They include "inukshuk" a/c C-GCPT. (The inuit people buid inuksuit or stone monuments as navigational and directional aids to indicate migration routes or to memorialize their dead); the "drum dancer" a/c C-GNWN (the accident a/c); "Northern Lights" in two variations, a/c C-GNDC and a/c C-FACP (the carrier's first all-passenger configured 737); "snowy owl" a/c C-FNVT; "polar bear" a/c C-FNVK; and the "iditarod" (iditarod trail dog sled race) applied to their sole 767-223F, a/c C-GKLY.

The link below has a great slide show of 7F's different tail liveries as applied to the 737 fleet.

http://airlinersgallery.wordpress.com/category/first-air/
Come fly the sun.
 
na
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:04 pm

Flightglobal has published the records of the carshed plane. It has done 86.000 flight hours and 62.000 cycles (that means it had clocked roughly twice as much as the average 732). Also it was involved in an near-accident before.
First Airs fleet age ranks be among the highest worldwide.
 
Viscount724
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:20 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 60):
Is it normal in Canada to fly such antique aircraft?

There's nothing else that can do what the 732 with the gravel kit can do.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 75):
The B737-200 Combi, with a gravel kit, is the only jet transport airliner that can land at YRB.

727s have regularly operated at YRB in the past. Pacific Western used the 727-100C to YRB where the photo below was taken.

http://www.pwareunion.com/images/aircraft/b727/b727-721-YRB.JPG

Quoting Navigator (Reply 93):
When it comes to the need for gravel kits why are not more runways surfaced with asphalt in northern Canada there days? This would allow operations with "normal" 737:s

Building paved runways on permafrost is expensive. However, I believe there are now only a couple of airports in northern Canada still served by scheduled jet service that lack paved runways. Cambridge Bay (YCB) is one. I think there's at least one more but can't remember which one. Many of the flights using the 732C combis in that area are charter flights to remote gravel strips serving mine sites etc.
 
cylw
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:29 pm

YCO & YCB have regular scheduled daily flights on 5T

Other airports that are gravel which can support a 737 are YBB, YUX, YRB.

The runway seems to have nothing to do with this accident at first glance though.

[Edited 2011-08-22 08:31:21]
 
trigged
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:42 pm

62,000 cycles puts it just past the threshold for the FAA guidelines for repair assessment (60k cycles) as part of Part 121 Sec 121.1107. The Aloha 732 that opened up in flight had over 89,000 cycles and there are quite a few with well over 70k cycles. Age has nothing to do with it once again. Properly maintained, the aircraft could theoretically fly indefinitely. If the 732C is what they need and few remain, I am sure they would be willing to invest the money to keep them serviceable.
 
flyorski
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:58 pm

My condolences for this loss. It is a terrible tragedy and my thoughts are with the victims families.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 93):
I am certain First Airs pilots are well trained. When it comes to the need for gravel kits why are not more runways surfaced with asphalt in northern Canada there days? This would allow operations with "normal" 737:s

It is impossible to pave a runway on permafrost. It simply will not hold year round.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
EDTrauma
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:49 am

Quoting Babybus (Reply 60):
Is it normal in Canada to fly such antique aircraft?

Age really has very little to do with aircraft safety more airline economics. It is much to early to speculate, but with the aircraft getting on in cycles, maintenance would be a priority. First Air's facility at Carp, ON, Canada does very fine maintenance work.
 
scrumpy492003
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:04 am

RCMP release list of passengers and crew from plane that crashed in Nunavut
_QR77 Newsroom
8/22/2011


A list of the 15 passengers and crew believed to have been on board First Air Flight 6560 that crashed Saturday near Resolute Bay, Nunavut.
Passengers:
Marty Bergmann
Cheyenne Eckalook
Steve Girouard
Lise Lamoureux
Gabrielle Pelky (injured)
Raymond Pitre
Randolph Reid
Michael Rideout
Chesley Tibbo
Nicole Williamson (injured)
Robin Wyllie (injured)
Crew:
Anne Marie Chassie
David Hare
Ute Merritt
Blair Rutherford
Source: Royal Canadian Mounted Police
peter b95 c-ghfu
 
greasespot
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:08 pm

First air no longer does maintenance or even owns the Carp facilit it sold it to the RCMP in 2004 or 05 y. It never did any jet maintenance there it was a turboprop facility.

I worked for firstAir for eleven years in the maintenance department and they never cheaper out on repairs. If it needed to be done it was. The maintenance department almost had an autonomy from the finance department.

I spent my first 3 years doing the line maintenance on NWN. I knew both of the flight attendants. I remember when the captain was first hired and his first flights. I only knew the other pilot in passing. I was on vacation when this crash happened and was contacted by friends there to make sure I did not stumble upon it. This happened even though I have been gone 5 years. That it how much of a family this place is. First air is the best place I have ever worked.

I know that yesterday was a very hard day at work for them.

The first air family is broken.

Gs
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
greasespot
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:11 pm

What's the point of posting the passenger list. I have never seen that done here before.

While it is not inappropriate I do not understand the reason


Gs
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
bennett123
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:44 pm

Does the RCMP still have a L1011 at Carp?.
 
F9Animal
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:44 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 105):
And some more I can´t recall, but there seems there´s a pattern with children surviving impossible crashes. Or maybe It´s just me looking wrongly at the statistics.

Any opinions?
Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 110):
Perhaps children survive because being smaller they can survive in spaces that are too small for an adult.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 111):
I think that deserves its own thread.

The UA-DC-8 / TW-L1049 crash over NY in 1960 a child of 8 survived although died the day after, I think.
And I think a couple of children survived JAL 123 crash (520 dead, 4 survivors).

I suppose they have less probability to be mutilated, and inerties of their bodies are smaller, but apart from that it's still a mystery to me.

I have a good answer to that question!!   I asked this to NTSB and FAA folks at a drill once. The answer was unanimous. Children are much more flexible, and of course are much smaller than adults. Flexibility is a huge factor to their survival, as adults have less flexibility. Also keep in mind that adults usually have their heads above the headrests, which leaves a head open to more injury in a crash. A child usually conforms to the seat.

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 112):
In answer to your question, F9, First Air introduced a series of traditional northern images beginning in 2005. They include "inukshuk" a/c C-GCPT. (The inuit people buid inuksuit or stone monuments as navigational and directional aids to indicate migration routes or to memorialize their dead); the "drum dancer" a/c C-GNWN (the accident a/c); "Northern Lights" in two variations, a/c C-GNDC and a/c C-FACP (the carrier's first all-passenger configured 737); "snowy owl" a/c C-FNVT; "polar bear" a/c C-FNVK; and the "iditarod" (iditarod trail dog sled race) applied to their sole 767-223F, a/c C-GKLY.

The link below has a great slide show of 7F's different tail liveries as applied to the 737 fleet.

http://airlinersgallery.wordpress.co...-air/

Thank you! Happy to see 7F's colorful tails! Sad to see the loss of this aircraft. RIP to those that perished.  
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
prebennorholm
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting flyorski (Reply 117):
It is impossible to pave a runway on permafrost. It simply will not hold year round.

Incorrect. All runways serving scheduled traffic in Greenland are built on permafrost, and they are all paved.

But they didn't come cheaply. I paid for them. (Well, part of them).

It helped to keep down the cost that most of them are DHC-7 size rather than B737 size.

One way to do it is like Norwegian Svalbard Airport (LYR - ENSB) at 78 deg. N. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Airport,_Longyear

In Greenland, on the other hand, they are (mostly?) made on rocks. They build them high in the terrain with good draining facilities under the pavement. And during construction it is of utmost importance to get all ice filled cracks in the rocks removed deep down, with dynamite.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Dalavia
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:22 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 114):
There's nothing else that can do what the 732 with the gravel kit can do.

Perhaps a Tu-154?

Not wanting to be flippant, but maybe some of those old Soviet planes have a future in the Arctic.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:01 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 125):
Not wanting to be flippant, but maybe some of those old Soviet planes have a future in the Arctic.

Interesting thought for sure, but I think there's almost zero chance of that happening for at least a few reasons.

1) Frustratingly non-existent parts support
2) Lack of reliability and efficiency
3) No western maintenance experience on Soviet metal
4) Completely different operating philosophy. Yes, all airplanes deal with the same laws of physics, but older generation Russian equipment is a completely different environment altogether. Crew is different (lots more labor costs), arcane and complicated navigation equipment, not to mention that the entire cockpit is in Russian.

The 737-200 with gravel kit really is a beast, and there is really no good replacement for it.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
mcg
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:08 am

I'm curious, from a flight planning point of view what airports serve as alternates for Resolute Bay?
 
rfields5421
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:13 am

An alternate would likely be either a return to Yellowknife or Iqaluit. Though Thule Greenland is only 400 nm away.

It is about 850 nm to either. Aircraft on flights to places like Resolute Bay carry fuel for the return trip and diversion if necessary on the return leg. Any pilot who flies in such regions long has to make such a return because landing was impossible eventually.

You see much the same thing on flights in the far flung Pacific and Indian Ocean islands. I've flown from Guam to Truk, and had to return to Guam without landing in a Air Mike B727 Combi - which also also had a gravel kit because Truk was not paved at that time.

[Edited 2011-08-23 20:14:06]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:09 am

Quoting Babybus (Reply 60):

Is it normal in Canada to fly such antique aircraft?

Safety is determined by the quality of maintenance & NOT by the age of the aircraft.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cylw
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 127):
I'm curious, from a flight planning point of view what airports serve as alternates for Resolute Bay?

Depends on the load. There is fuel available in YRB, so if they had a heavy load the closest 737 alternates are YBB and YCB. YCB is more desireable as they have 24hr manned obs for wx so TAF/METARs. YUX or YCO are also a possibility. YFB or YZF is unlikely unless the load is extremely light.
 
mcg
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 128):
An alternate would likely be either a return to Yellowknife or Iqaluit. Though Thule Greenland is only 400 nm away.
Quoting CYLW (Reply 130):
Depends on the load. There is fuel available in YRB, so if they had a heavy load the closest 737 alternates are YBB and YCB. YCB is more desireable as they have 24hr manned obs for wx so TAF/METARs. YUX or YCO are also a possibility. YFB or YZF is unlikely unless the load is extremely light.

Thanks for the information. I must add that the distances involved are really eye-opening . The Canadian North is a big place!

[Edited 2011-08-24 07:08:02]
 
Viscount724
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 125):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 114):
There's nothing else that can do what the 732 with the gravel kit can do.

Perhaps a Tu-154?

I've never seen a Tu-154 combi with a main deck cargo door. Apart from the gravel runway capability, it's the 732C's combi flexibility that makes it so useful in Canada's north. One news report said the aircraft that crashed was operating with only a 24-seat passenger cabin and 5 cargo pallets. To see that configuration click the 4th gray dot from the left below the aircraft below.
http://www.firstair.ca/about/fleet/boeing-737-200-combi/
 
motif1
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:34 pm

New photos according to The Huffington Post:

New Photos Of The Wreckage Of First Air Flight 6560
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:37 pm

It is amazing that anybody survived that.
What the...?
 
mandala499
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting motif1 (Reply 133):
New photos according to The Huffington Post:

New Photos Of The Wreckage Of First Air Flight 6560

Geeez, that tailplane looked like it had a scrape on impact...
Left Horizontal Stabilizer shows upward bends due to snaps/impacts...
Tailplane detached facing backwards.
The bottom part of the fuselage below the start of the vertical stabilizer has signs of scraping and tears indicating a ground contact of left to right (fuselage travelling right to left on one of the impacts).
No ground trail near the tailplane suggesting it landed there after some impact & detachment... (ie: it didn't slide to get there).
An upper 1/3 cross section separated by "some distance" roughly within the trajectory line...
Relatively open debris trajectory, and small pieces...

It looked damn nasty indeed.
Could be a high energy status trying to avoid ground impact at the time of impact(s)...
Yes, how anyone could have survived that????? OMG!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
motif1
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 135):
Mandala499

Thanks for the analysis, mandala!
Looking at the panoramic landscape photo (#8), can you tell me which way the airplane was traveling and how it impated the ground? Was it coming from the left?
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree
 
FlyingAY
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 129):
Safety is determined by the quality of maintenance & NOT by the age of the aircraft.

While this in general is true, I think it would be insulting towards the airframers to say that during last 40 years of aircraft development there haven't been any safety improvements.
 
mandala499
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:48 am

Quoting motif1 (Reply 136):
Looking at the panoramic landscape photo (#8), can you tell me which way the airplane was traveling and how it impated the ground? Was it coming from the left?

On #8, which is this:


It's right to left... if it's left to right, U'd see an impact crater instead...

The impact basically ripped the airplane and spewing everything forward for quote some distance. I don't now the terrain there (never been there!), I suspect there's an area right of the photo which shows the ground contact marks. Photo #8 does however indicate some way of the likelihood the aircraft was powering up when the rear belly hitting terrain... and began to disintegrate.

That photo is taken facing EAST from the airport. The aircraft reported on ILS35... The location where the aircraft ended up is about 1-2NM east of the centerline... As per covered by:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...to-unravel-crashed-737s-track.html


Pics I put were from http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-medi...tos/aviation/A11H0002/A11H0002.asp

Given the conditions at the time, with the wind favouring a landing for 17, I doubt that those guys were going for an ILS35T circling 17T... anyone wanting to do left pattern circling 17T would be nothing but crazy!

So, aircraft ended up where it was, realized it, and performed missed approach and hit terrain... consistent with someone at the airport reporting he heard sounds of a distant spooling up engine followed by thump... But how did it end up where it was?

I struggled to find the reasons until I started looking at different chart vendors... and found that:

NDB 350/RB is located along the runway centerline to the north at 1NM from threshold 17T.
LLZ35T 110.3/IRB is located along the runway 17T to the north at 850m from threshold 17T.
VOR 112.1/YRB is located at 1NM to the east and roughly abeam of threshold 17T.

Impact, I approximate occured at 1.1NM from runway centerline, and roughly 170deg T from YRB... A speculation somewhere on the internet has suspected that the aircraft was going towards the VOR... Sure, the location of the probable impact point can support this, but:
1. No Instrument Approach Procedures that are current use the VOR.
2. From the rough impact point to where the furthermost mostly unburnt large piece of the upper fuselage (not the tail) the straightline is about 300-315T... ironically, this line points roughly towards the the localizer, and NDB.

Unfortunately, no photos of impact point, so we can only guess where it is..

One way to get the path of the final moments of flight, we need to know if the aircraft flew over the town itself or not... If it did, then, well, it could be more or less "accurately guesstimated".

So, what the heck happened to it?
I personally suspect the aircraft somehow captured a False Localizer... which can happen if you're just outside the "normal lobe" for full course deflection without an OFF flag, that is 35deg within 10NM, and 10deg between 10 to 18NM from the transmitter.


Now the final approach course is 347T... 35deg would mean that you can get a valid full deflection signal up to (167-35 = ) a bearing of 132T (312T inbound)

Once you're outside that, you can get false localizer centerlines... I seem to remember a case or two where being somewhere on 42-45deg offset from the course could produce the false localizer signal... And if I remember correctly, that is within the glideslope lateral lobe.

Now, what other beacons would one tune in? if you tune into the NDB (350/RB), along the false localizer line, you would get the RMI/ADF needle pointing relatively straight up... (NDB is notoriously "wobbly" anyways).
If your VHF NAV2 Box is tuned to 112.1/YRB, the RMI2 needle would point to the right of center... which is the same if you're at the correct localizer course.
The only thing that would save them, is if they saw the heading on the HSI and RMI to be incorrect... simple right? Well, they're in IMC, likely looking out in anticipation of breaking out of the fog, while taking snapshots of the instruments, which would focus on air data, and the stuff you'd be on the lookout for when you're far into an ILS approach... LLZ & GS deviations. (what if someone missed checking the HSI heading when they captured the ILS?).

Well, the magnetic variation there is 28W... going on 347T would be 319Mag... now, their track, I approximate to be... 300-315T... if someone switched Mag/Tru switch without telling the other (intentionally or by accident)... well, you get the picture.

If this is what happened, when they broke out of the fog at 500ft ASL (Minima is 400ASL), well, it wouldn't be a pretty picture... at my approximate impact point, the terrain is about 490ft ASL... *sigh*

But, we're not the investigators... the above is just speculation. If true, I guess false localizers and glideslops are stil catching out the unwary, or even the wary!
The question now for me is, how the heck did they end up catching that? Something with the flight path they took to enter the vicinity of CYRB? a 23T track from 100NM away towards CYRB, would be about 37-40deg inbound on the vicinity of CYRB... perhaps they did a short-cut entry into the ILS approach? I don't know the flying culture there (safe no doubts, but not error free, despite all the good training they get!), perhaps someone familiar with CYRB could shed some light on this?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
motif1
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:31 am

RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:22 pm

Thank you for your time and effort!
Great analysis. It would be interesting what the investigation comes up with.

M1
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:13 pm

News items (with videos) on the memorial service held at YEG for the captain killed in the crash. His brother is a FedEx captain. They used a parked FedEx 757 with his brother in the cockpit for a water cannon salute during the ceremony.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ton-rutherford-pilot-memorial.html
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/08/2...leduc-pilot-killed-in-resolute-bay
 
SASDC8
Posts: 530
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:01 pm

RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:17 am

There is no problem with the gravel, it is PIC that has done a horrible misstake. Reminds me of the Torghatten excident in Norway in 1988.

RIP to those who lost there lives.
2-3-2 is NOT a premium configuration
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:09 pm

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 141):
it is PIC that has done a horrible misstake

Can you lay out the evidence supporting that conclusion?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
mrskyguy
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:13 pm

RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:34 pm

Quoting kaiarahi (Reply 142):
Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 141):
it is PIC that has done a horrible misstake

Can you lay out the evidence supporting that conclusion?

Seconded. That comment makes zero sense, and I believe is actually grounds for removal by the mods on account of libel.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
 
9252fly
Posts: 955
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:03 pm

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 143):
Seconded. That comment makes zero sense, and I believe is actually grounds for removal by the mods on account of libel.

Likewise. Not really appropriate to make that kind comment until the investigation is complete and released to the public. I personally take issue with judging the pilots when they were among fatalities and don't have the ability to defend themselves against accusations of having made errors.

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