Okie
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:02 am

Quoting kaiarahi (Reply 47):
With ATRs. This was a 732 charter


That was posted while I was typing, but I can not imagine that no one on the flight deck had not been to CYRB previously.

Okie
 
RobertS975
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:33 am

Quoting kaiarahi (Reply 39):
First hull loss in 65 years of flying into some of the most inhospitable territory in the world.. Don't worry - some of the best pilots I've ever jump-seated with - really!
Quoting kaitak (Reply 26):
Very sad to hear this news; as far as I can see, the first fatal crash involving a Canadian commercial airliner since the Air Canada DC9 incident at CVG in 1983.
Quoting kaiarahi (Reply 28):
Air Ontario F28 in 1989 - 21 dead (not counting some of the small scheduled floatplane services along the BC coast).

There was a fatal accident involving a First Air Twin Otter in 1996 (2 fatalities).
 
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longhauler
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:38 am

Quoting okie (Reply 46):
The baffling part here is that we have ILS, an airport that the operator and pilots normally frequents, and from the picture that I saw only undulating terrain on the approach and the crash site about approx 5 km's from airport property.

The ILS is on runway 35. The winds were favouring runway 17, so it is likely he was either doing the LOC 17, or circling from the ILS 35 to land 17.

Which is why I tend to agree with this:

Quoting kaiarahi (Reply 49):
No indication they were on final - it looks more like downwind.

Which would result from a circling approach. However, with 7OVC just before the accident to 3OVC just after the accident, it would appear the weather was below minima for either procedure.
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hmmmm...
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting sanjet (Reply 48):

We'll let the TSB investigators determine that. You don't know what happened.

I didn't say I know what happened. I said this crash is surrounded by circumstances consistent with the classic controlled flight into terrain. What part of that statement did you misinterpret? While the TSB investigates, the public can discuss. If you have a problem with that, the internets is not for you.
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:10 am

According to personal comments from people in the area the fog lifted about 10 minutes after this crash. Most of the terrain up there is pretty rough, but relatively flat. Except for this one hill...
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wjv04
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:39 am

Quoting okie (Reply 46):
The baffling part here is that we have ILS, an airport that the operator and pilots normally frequents, and from the picture that I saw only undulating terrain on the approach and the crash site about approx 5 km's from airport property. They had to be way below the 3deg glide slope at that distance to find terra firma. From what information we have at this point things just do not seem to add up.


No they certainly dont, and in my experience and training regarding aviation incidents/accidents, there is typically never a single cause of an accident. I call it the swiss cheese effect, the holes on multiple layers of cheese have to align perfectly for something to happen. I would be willing to bet, that WX was only a contributing factor but not the sole cause. There could have been a circumstance on board that dictated the end result. Mechanical issue, medical on board, who knows. Multiple things are going wrong, when you have a result such as this.
 
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:21 am

This is really depressing. I flew this and some other First Air aircraft a few weeks back and was just in the middle of writing a TR. RIP to the 12, and may courage be with the families.

I have had my share of travels, and the crew were one of the best I have ever encountered on my flights.

Saludos,
A.

This is the interior of the one that crashed I believe:

Live, and let live.
 
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:48 am

Quoting sanjet (Reply 48):
Quoting hmmmm... (Reply 37):
Sounds like another controlled flight into terrain in bad visibility. This type of accident never dies.


We'll let the TSB investigators determine that. You don't know what happened.

In this forum I think we are allowed to speculate from what we see right now. No harm in that. We are just discussing about probable causes. OK? From the little I see here I agree that it sounds like CFIT again. Navigational error?
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:50 am

Hows was the weather at the time like.......
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shnoob940
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:16 am

Quoting kaiarahi (Reply 39):
First hull loss in 65 years of flying into some of the most inhospitable territory in the world.. Don't worry - some of the best pilots I've ever jump-seated with - really!

Okay, that sounds great. I am still looking forward to visiting the far north though.
 
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:35 am

Is it normal in Canada to fly such antique aircraft?

This really is very depressing. Those poor people.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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blooBirdie
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:44 am

Quoting Babybus (Reply 61):
Is it normal in Canada to fly such antique aircraft?

a) The 732 is as tough as old boots.

b) It's the only 737 that can be gravel-kitted. (I stand to be corrected!)

See THIS THREAD in Tech Ops.
 
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:57 am

If that photo is the extent of the debris field, it's amazing that three people survived.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:05 pm

Nunatsiaq News (local Nunavut paper) is reporting that the survivors are a seven year-old girl whose twin sister died (for those of you who know YRB, Aziz' granddaughters) and the two FAs (one critically injured).
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:50 pm

Quoting kaiarahi (Reply 59):
Quoting Navigator (Reply 57):
We are just discussing about probable causes.

Probable causes require evidence. You have none.

We are free to speculate.

The theory of CFIT came from early information we read. Accidents like this in difficult terrain and weather often are CFIT related. But keep in mind we did not say it was just that it probably could be... (and we are free to discuss without any evidence...) I still think this is a CFIT with navigational error involved.
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longhauler
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:12 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 61):
Is it normal in Canada to fly such antique aircraft?


The B737-200 is the only jet transport aircraft certified to carry cargo in a "combi" configuration, and land on gravel runways.

As long as there are gravel runways in Canada's arctic, (which would be forever, as neither asphalt nor concrete will work over the permafrost) there will always be a home for these aircraft.




I have flown many thousands of hours on the B737-200 in Canada's arctic with Canadi>n.

When doing a circling approach, it was SOP at the time to fly it from minima, gear down, but with flaps only at 15 (or it may have been 20, as this was 15 years ago) at 180 knots. Landing flap was not selected until on final on the landing runway and descending from circling altitude. This was done so that the GPWS would do its desired function.

The radar altimeter doesn't have an auto call out function, but the GPWS will call "terrain" at certain ground closure rates while not in landing configuration, or "terrain/pull up" at increased closure rates in landing config. Or, even in controlled flight it will call "terrain/flaps" below a certain radar altitude if not in landing configuration. It is a very basic GPWS, but certainly effective.

[Edited 2011-08-21 10:59:26 by SA7700]

[Edited 2011-08-21 11:06:39 by SA7700]
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:14 pm

In some planes there is a sound warning even if you are in landing config

[Edited 2011-08-21 07:15:24]
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:23 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 75):
In some planes there is a sound warning even if you are in landing config

Yes, you will get "sink rate" or "glide slope" then "pull up" during increased closure rates.

Also, in more advanced aircraft, with EGPWS using the nav database, you will get a "terrain" warning if that particular runway is not in the nav database. I encountered this last winter in Cancun on the new runway 12L.
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 74):
I have flown many thousands of hours on the B737-200 in Canada's arctic with Canadi>n.

Then I presume you know a lot about the area in question. Do they have radar services in the area for navigational purposes?
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:31 pm

Many airline unions, (mine included) have an Accident Investigation Team. The function is not to determine an accident cause, there are many Government officials that will do that. The function of a union investigation team is to assist the pilots during the process if they are still alive, or to defend the pilots and assist their families if they did not survive the crash.

With my accident investigation training, that is my function in our union.

First Air, does not have such a team at their disposal, and asked our union for assistance, to which we quickly agreed. They are presently on their way. Normally I would be going as well, however, the airline could not release me from my flight tomorrow as they are very short of B767 Captains right now.

[Edited 2011-08-21 11:12:00 by SA7700]
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Kaiarahi
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:32 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 78):
Do they have radar services in the area for navigational purposes?

Assuming you mean ground radar, no. If you read post 34, you'll see it's an uncontrolled airport. If you look at post 44, you'll see the aircraft was fitted with weather radar (which is a CARs requirement).

[Edited 2011-08-21 07:38:28]
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longhauler
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 78):
Then I presume you know a lot about the area in question. Do they have radar services in the area for navigational purposes?

No, with probably no more than 20 movements a day, it is not warranted. The airspace is controlled, but only by position reporting. If two aircraft happen to arrive at an airport at the same time, one will hold until the other has completed the approach, landed and reported the landing to ATC.
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ZBBYLW
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:49 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 82):

I think there is a miss communication here. CFIT implies "Controlled" flight in to terrain which essentially means everything is working well and the pilots did something or did not do something and the results was hitting terrain. I see your not trying to use that in your explanation. We know that the aircraft ended up in the terrain but at this point we don't know if it was CFIT, an aircraft issue a navigation aid problem or anything else. Hope that clears it up.

Thanks longhauler for your detailed responses.
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Kaiarahi
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 85):
We know that the aircraft ended up in the terrain but at this point we don't know if it was CFIT, an aircraft issue a navigation aid problem or anything else.

We do know that the ILS was NOTAMed U/S after the accident, but that might have been a precaution until they make sure it is calibrated/functioning correctly.
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 85):
I think there is a miss communication here. CFIT implies "Controlled" flight in to terrain which essentially means everything is working well and the pilots did something or did not do something and the results was hitting terrain. I see your not trying to use that in your explanation. We know that the aircraft ended up in the terrain but at this point we don't know if it was CFIT, an aircraft issue a navigation aid problem or anything else. Hope that clears it up.

CFIT does not mean everything is working well... CFIT means just what it says, Controlled Flight Into Terrain. It means the plane was flyable, not stalled or anything, and flew into ground.

There is nothing to clear up as long as everyone stays on the subject instead of implying that people discussing this topic do not care of the victims nor the pilots. Such ways of discussing that Kaiarahi started are not OK in my mind. But lets forget about that now. And lets assume everyone cares about the victims and their families.

This was an unfortunate accident. I do not think we come any further at this stage until we know more.

But I wonder why those older generation planes still fly in one of the most demanding areas of the world when it comes to climate and navigation? Isnt it time to upgrade equipment at such routes? This is really old stuff with perhaps very old generation navigation equipment (unless it is upgraded).
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longhauler
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:13 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 88):
But I wonder why those older generation planes still fly in one of the most demanding areas of the world when it comes to climate and navigation? Isnt it time to upgrade equipment at such routes? This is really old stuff with perhaps very old generation navigation equipment (unless it is upgraded).

I say this respectfully, but what would you suggest?

The B737-200 Combi, with a gravel kit, is the only jet transport airliner that can land at YRB.

The airport has NDBs, and an ILS. Actually, that is pretty good for the arctic, but with such little traffic, it comes down to a balance. Most airlines make the marketing decision that with so little traffic, and such limited facilities, there will be times when the flight can not be performed. It can and does happen.

The only upgrade can be GPS RNAV/LNAV/VNAV approaches. That is an approach using GPS nav track for lateral navigation and FMS/GPS input for VNAV guidance, all from an RNAV approach. All of this requires a very advanced aircraft, of which the B737-200 is not included.

It is hard to tell from terrain maps, but with 2000'AGL terrain within 25 miles of the airport, it is possible that from that direction, (the north) any vertically guided approach might not be possible.
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ZBBYLW
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 88):
But I wonder why those older generation planes still fly in one of the most demanding areas of the world when it comes to climate and navigation?

No other aircraft of the size is being built these days that can go up north. The new 737s can't get gravel kits.
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wjv04
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:17 pm

As I stated earlier i dont believe WX was the sole factor, in fact probally just a contributing factor. Information on the specific aircraft in question reveals that has had two seperate incidents with the engines. I dont think this is CFIT. Something mechanical went wrong during borderline WX minimum conditions, is what I can gather myself so far.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:29 pm

Quoting WJV04 (Reply 93):
As I stated earlier i dont believe WX was the sole factor, in fact probally just a contributing factor. Information on the specific aircraft in question reveals that has had two seperate incidents with the engines. I dont think this is CFIT. Something mechanical went wrong during borderline WX minimum conditions, is what I can gather myself so far.

If you're referring to this

"On Feb. 18 of this year, pilots aborted a takeoff from Winnipeg James Armstrong Richardson International Airport after a low-power warning on one of the plane’s engines.
On Nov. 11, 2010, the plane was en route from Norman Wells, N.W.T., to Inuvik, N.W.T., when pilots noticed an engine overheat warning. Pilots shut down the engine

it's the kind of thing that happens dozens of times a week. Take a look at the Canadian Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System (CADORS): http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/CADORS-SCREAQ/m.aspx?lang=eng
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:29 pm

I am going to play Devil's Advocate here. Think of a few scenarios:

1. The aircraft was doing the circling approach and flew into a flock of large birds.

2. During the circling approach, terrorists took over control of the aircraft and a cockpit fight ensued.

3. During the circling approach, a rudder hard-over caused loss of control.

4. During the circling approach an engine malfunction caused loss of control. (same thing for flight control issued during flap selection during the approach).

etc etc etc

Not only are all of these plausible, but they have all occurred in the past. That is one of the "elegant" things I find about accident investigation is that normally, you never enter into unencountered territory. There is almost always some common thread from the past.

Also note ... in the above scenarios, pilot error is not an issue. I am just sorry I am not there to defend the pilots, thankfully people are on the way to do just that!
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:43 pm

Usually when aircraft fly into terrain it's either a navigational error or equipment malfunction.

I think that discussions about incidents like this are healthy for pilots. The reason for the crash, or events leading up to the crash can help educate pilots about managing your aircraft. I've said it before, and I'll say it again... if it happened to them, it can certainly happen to you, learn from the mistakes of others.

Ever since I began my flying lessons in 1968, I have always been interested in NTSB reports. Not for the fun of it, but for the clinical analysis of what took place and what the pilot could have done to prevent the incident from happening. And in 43 years of flying I have yet to even scratch or dent an aircraft.

[Edited 2011-08-21 11:29:17 by SA7700]
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garpd
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:46 pm

I noticed ASN have not listed any crew as dead. Did the pilots survive?
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:55 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 100):
I noticed ASN have not listed any crew as dead. Did the pilots survive?

Unfortunately not. I believe a small girl and the F/A's survived, that's it.
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Kaiarahi
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:59 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 101):
Unfortunately not. I believe a small girl and the F/A's survived, that's it.

Nunatsiaq News (local paper) is now saying that the F/As did not survive. They're still saying 3 survivors.
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trigged
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:20 pm

I am once again dumbfounded by the comments about this age of this aircraft. If an aircraft is properly maintained, it does not matter the age. The aircraft can be 100 years old, but if sufficiently maintained and under the cycle limits (pressurized), it is just as safe as any other aircraft. I would be just as ready to hop on a 727/737 classic/707/DC-8, etc as long as they are properly maintained. The only difference between properly maintained older and newer aircraft is efficiency.

As for the gravel kits, not sure which models they can be applied to. I know someone posted a Tech Ops link to a discussion about them, will look at it later. There are still plenty of the 732s out there to buy to convert.
 
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:34 pm

NOTAMs for CYRB:

110070 CYRB RESOLUTE BAY
CYRB ILS/DME RWY 35 TRUE APCH:
LANDING SKETCH TIMING BLOCK TO READ:
POKAN FAF TO MAP 4.0 NM
KNOTS 70 90 110 130 150
MIN: SEC 3:26 2:40 2:11 1:51 1:36
1106300901 TIL APRX 1109221800

110071 CYRB RESOLUTE BAY
CYRB VASIS 17 U/S TIL APRX 1108312359

110122 CYRB RESOLUTE BAY
CYRB ILS 35 U/S
TIL 1108222359
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cylw
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:41 pm

Quoting kaiarahi (Reply 108):
110122 CYRB RESOLUTE BAY
CYRB ILS 35 U/S
TIL 1108222359

I checked the NOTAMs just after the accident. The ILS NOTAM was NOT there then. They must have taken it offline after just in case it contributed to the accident.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting CYLW (Reply 109):
I checked the NOTAMs just after the accident. The ILS NOTAM was NOT there then. They must have taken it offline after just in case it contributed to the accident.

Yep. It's due back in service at 1900 local time tomorrow. The 17 VASIS was out before the accident and not back till Aug 31. If they were doing a circling back course for 17 in drifting fog, the U/S VASIS may have been on their minds.
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acidradio
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:03 pm

Parts of this discussion are starting to become an argument. This needs to stop immediately.

If someone asks a question or speculates to the cause of something, DISCUSS it and don't RIP on it. This is a discussion forum and people are permitted to, in fact, ENCOURAGED to discuss these things. We are a community that spans from people who cannot fold a paper plane to toss into the wastebasket to people who have 20000 hrs of multiengine turbine time under their belt.

Let us all show each other a little more respect today. We are discussing a tragedy where a number of people died. Perhaps we could do a better job of honoring their memory and circumstances by cooperating. Thanks.
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cylw
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:05 pm

I know that the circling approach off the ILS 35T is just specuation, but I would be surprised if thats what they were attempting.

The LOC/BC 17T has fairly respectable limits. I would think they would have tried a straight in approach for 17T first. Maybe they were going to do the ILS with a slight tailwind, but the winds picked up and they were going to go around when something went terribly wrong.
 
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting CYLW (Reply 105):
I know that the circling approach off the ILS 35T is just specuation, but I would be surprised if thats what they were attempting.

I speculated that they were doing an ILS35 circling to land 17, because of where the aircraft ended up. During the circling procedure they would have flown directly over the crash site. I have no "official" information so it is pure speculation on my part.

Quoting CYLW (Reply 105):
The LOC/BC 17T has fairly respectable limits. I would think they would have tried a straight in approach for 17T first.

This may sounds strange, but having flown into YRB hundreds of times, that is usually the last choice. Mostly because of the time it takes. You almost always approach the airport from the south, so to do a complete instrument approach takes about 10 minutes longer than an approach to 35 circling to 17.

When I flew the B737 for Canadi>n, I was "arctic trained" this allowed me to bid arctic pairings. A part of the arctic training was one extra sim session a year on top of the usual 4. The majority of this training was circling approaches. It is very basic IFR flying, but you have the know the "rules" cold.

We would do single-engine and two-engine circling approaches to landing and go-arounds. One of the hardest manoeuvres was the do a missed approach during the circling procedure, unless you knew the rules, you could violate airspace restrictions.

First Air has an excellent reputation of flying safely in very harsh conditions, I am sure their pilots are trained as thoroughly, and know the "rules".
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peterjohns
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:50 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 82):
And in 43 years of flying I have yet to even scratch or dent an aircraft.

My original answer was not permitted, so I´ll stay with the remark that you have been a lucky pilot up to now...
Great remark for this topic.Thanks for your input.
 
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:51 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 92):
I speculated that they were doing an ILS35 circling to land 17, because of where the aircraft ended up. During the circling procedure they would have flown directly over the crash site. I have no "official" information so it is pure speculation on my part.

Thanks for this info, and for the perspectives you've shared in the previous postings, longhauler.

I tried to piece together this from the info at http://avherald.com/h?comment=4419c56e&opt=0 .

Quote:

A listener on frequency reported the crew of C-GNWN had called 3nm final for runway 35T, which proved to be their last radio transmission. Temporary Tower tried to raise them without success. Another aircraft was on approach to runway 17T and went around because of fog, they were asked by tower whether they could see anything. During their second approach the fog lifted and the crew of that aircraft was able to see a debris field and black smoke at the top of a hill.

but the location of the crash site doesn't seem to be consistent with being on a 3nm final for rwy 35T.

I understand the tower is unmanned, but I wonder if a recording of CTAF is made anywhere?
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:59 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 92):
First Air has an excellent reputation of flying safely in very harsh conditions, I am sure their pilots are trained as thoroughly, and know the "rules".

I am certain First Airs pilots are well trained. When it comes to the need for gravel kits why are not more runways surfaced with asphalt in northern Canada there days? This would allow operations with "normal" 737:s
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b767
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:10 pm

Doesn,t First Air have EGPWS with earlier warnings on their old 737-200,s or is this systems for EFIS cockpits only?
 
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 61):
Is it normal in Canada to fly such antique aircraft?

LOL. I love it!

Quoting Navigator (Reply 95):
I am certain First Airs pilots are well trained. When it comes to the need for gravel kits why are not more runways surfaced with asphalt in northern Canada there days? This would allow operations with "normal" 737:s

One of the first things I noticed with the Canadian birds coming down to IFP was those gravel kits. They are cool!

Quoting kaiarahi (Reply 85):
Nunatsiaq News (local paper) is now saying that the F/As did not survive. They're still saying 3 survivors.

Very curious as to what they have to say.
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:48 pm

Any questions, concerns, issues, etc., that anyone has in regards to Moderator actions taken in regards to this thread need to be addressed directed with the Moderators via an email to the Moderators ([email protected]). Comments about Moderator actions posted in open forum are not allowed, as the Moderators will not discuss their actions in open forum.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:21 pm

As for discussing an air-crash before any actual evidence, lets remember the definitions of:

prob·a·ble/ˈpräbəbəl/
Adjective: Likely to be the case or to happen

pos·si·ble/ˈpäsəbəl/
Adjective: Able to be done; within the power or capacity of someone or something.
Noun: A person or thing that has the potential to become or do something.

It would be very unnerving to place blame on anyone or any thing for this accident at this time. There just simple is *not* enough evidence apart from a hulk of a frame and unfortunately dead individuals. I think it would be quite irresponsible to suggest probable causes.

Thank *GOD* there were actually enough first-responders on-hand, although it bore no positive outcome apart from the 3 survivors so far.

This really does highlight a major issue with polar/arctic routes. There needs to be a better support structure if airlines are going to continue flying in those areas.

1011yyz

[Edited 2011-08-21 14:06:26 by srbmod]
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:10 pm

Last warning:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 96):
Any questions, concerns, issues, etc., that anyone has in regards to Moderator actions taken in regards to this thread need to be addressed directed with the Moderators via an email to the Moderators ([email protected]). Comments about Moderator actions posted in open forum are not allowed, as the Moderators will not discuss their actions in open forum.

From the Forum Rules:

Quote:
5a. All comments and/or questions for the Forum Moderators should be emailed to [email protected]

The Moderators will not address Moderator actions in open forum. If users continue to press this matter, then this thread may be subject to archiving or accounts may be suspended. If you have anything that needs to be addressed towards the Moderators or in regards to Moderator action DO NOT POST IT IN THE FORUMS.
 
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RE: First Air 737 Crashed In Canada

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:36 pm

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 97):
It would be very unnerving to place blame on anyone or any thing for this accident at this time.

Sure, but it seems to me that many interpret speculation about the cause of an accident as being the assessment of blame as to the cause of an accident.

There's a big difference between speculation and accusation, and I don't think anyone here has crossed that line.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

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