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propilot83
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Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:24 am

Goodness gracious, I never thought that pilots would ever handle a 777 like this on landing or in flight, or in whatever. Crazy, this one made me laugh because it was so funny seeing the spoilers deploy and then retract hahaha  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoK_dbLDfA0
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:49 am

Nasty gust of wind at the wrong time, probably. Pax alive, plane reusable ==> excellent landing . Glad I wasn't onboard, though...       .
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
destinations
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:51 am

Quoting propilot83 (Thread starter):
I never thought that pilots would ever handle a 777 like this

Its a bit cynical to automatically blame the pilot when there is a lot of circumstances unknown e.g. wind.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:57 am

Meh, not too bad. certainly better than the joker flying a MD80 for AA that landed nose wheel first then proceeded to play pogostick with the airplane.
 
Rara
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:39 am

Quoting destinations (Reply 2):
Its a bit cynical to automatically blame the pilot when there is a lot of circumstances unknown e.g. wind.

As some youtube punter points out, the windsock visible from 0:12 to 0:15 doesn't show any wind.
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tayser
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:08 am

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 1):
Pax alive, plane reusable ==> excellent landing 

lol.

you, really, can't argue with that logic  
 
777fan
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:14 am

That video was featured in some other threads about NRT's wind patterns in light of the FX MD-11 accident a couple of years ago.


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shufflemoomin
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:00 am

They did not a bad job of keeping that bird straight. It could have been worse. I wonder if that first thump would count as a hard landing necessitating checking of that gear assembly? It certainly didn't look gentle.  
 
planereality
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:07 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 6):
That video was featured in some other threads about NRT's wind patterns in light of the FX MD-11 accident a couple of years ago

+1
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aero145
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:25 pm

Because I’m not an expert, I have to ask: Why didn’t the spoilers deploy straight away so that the aircraft wouldn’t bounce again and again?
 
wingman
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Jesus, looks like the landing gear folks and tire suppliers earned their folks at Narita on this one.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:21 pm

I guess the pilot is a former fighter pilot and just wanted to make sure that the pax knew that they really did touch down 
 
WNwatcher
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:47 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 4):
As some youtube punter points out, the windsock visible from 0:12 to 0:15 doesn't show any wind.

Winds do not travel in a perfectly straight line. It's entirely possible that the winds where the windsock is were almost nil, while at the threshhold/touchdown spot, the winds were gusting quite strong.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:29 pm

Quoting aero145 (Reply 9):
Why didn’t the spoilers deploy straight away so that the aircraft wouldn’t bounce again and again?

You need both gear on the ground for the spoilers to deploy. Watch the roll oscillation carefullly...it takes quite a while for them to get both gear down with weight on them and, as soon as they do, the spoilers come up fully.

Tom.
 
whorsefield
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:36 pm

I like the good old saying; "any landing you can walk away from is a good one"  
 
ycp81
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:15 pm

Most likely a windshear, which is quite common at Tokyo Narita (think the Fed-Ex MD11 crash).
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WestJet747
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:39 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 3):
joker flying a MD80 for AA that landed nose wheel first then proceeded to play pogostick with the airplane

Is there video of this?! A few quick queries on Youtube yielded nothing....
Flying refined.
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:00 pm

I like the old (supposed) quote of a captain to his F.O after a questionable landing:

"Did we just land or were we shot down?"


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catiii
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:10 pm

Quoting planereality (Reply 8):
Quoting 777fan (Reply 6):
That video was featured in some other threads about NRT's wind patterns in light of the FX MD-11 accident a couple of years ago

+1

As was this one of an Aeromexico 767 at Narita: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GoXuXZyhEs
 
highflier92660
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:33 pm

The aircraft is flying such a stabilized approach prior to touchdown I'm wondering if they hit some wake turbulence from a 747 or A380. The Korean Air hits turbulence right around the touchdown area where the preceding aircraft would be generating the greatest amount of wake (high alpha).

[Edited 2011-08-22 10:34:13]
 
aero145
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 13):
You need both gear on the ground for the spoilers to deploy.

That was the detail which I was missing, thank you Tom!
 
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garpd
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:31 pm

Crikey, thats the worst bit of pilot induced oscillation I have seen in a while.
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flyorski
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:57 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 21):

Considering the gusts he/she may have been facing, its unlikely that it is pilot induced.
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thrufru
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:57 pm

I think they pilots were just going for their landing currency. Remember, you need 3 in 90 days. That's gotta count for a few of 'em!
 
thrufru
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:04 pm

But seriously... Remember that weather can be an incredibly localized event. I landed on runway 14 at MYNN (Nassau, Bahamas) yesterday. The rain in the touchdown zone was so heavy that I couldn't see the edge lights on the right side of the runway and had to use the audible altitude alerter in the flight deck to aid in positional awareness. On roll-out, the rain lessened, then ended. The final 1/3 of the runway was completely dry.
 
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garpd
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:15 pm

Quoting flyorski (Reply 22):

Considering the gusts he/she may have been facing, its unlikely that it is pilot induced.

Windsock is as limp as a wet hanky.
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sandyb123
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 19):

This could be to do what category landing it was. NRT is a cat III ILS airport so depending on the flight rules they we using the autopilot could have been in control well over the inner marker (at the runway threshold). Even if this was only a cat II arrival the pilots would have been handed control from the flight director in the last few moments of flight, just about were the unexpected movement occurred.

Wind sheer, wake turbulence, adverse ground effect etc etc. When you're handed control of an 250t aircraft and and of those hit, a lot can happen in a few seconds.

I am only private pilot so have no real world experience. Happy to be corrected.

Sandyb123
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:03 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):

Is there video of this?! A few quick queries on Youtube yielded nothing....

nope, just one of the worst flights I've ever been on. You can guess why I don't fly AA or MD80's anymore unless I'm out of options. Many bad experiences as a kid on them. That was just the 800lbs gorrila that broke the camels back.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:12 pm

Reminded me of skipping a flat rock over smooth water.....
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AMX748
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:37 pm

Well Well Well!

I probably will be attending a meeting in Jakarta in November, so I was thinking to fly MEX-LAX or MEX-JFK, then continuing to ICN in the A380 and then to CGK, but there are too much KE dangerous landings documented in youtube, including the incident with the engine at NRT and many comments that Korean's cockpit crews dare to do "death or alive" landings.

So, maybe I will use Singapore A380 service instead of Korean. I've seen many turbulent landings at NRT, but KE landings are actually the most horrible of all, I wouldn't like to face the same fate of the FEDEX MD-11 which crashed on March 22nd 2009 at NRT
 
baw716
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:46 pm

A question: Does anybody know what the METAR was at the time of this landing? This might shed some light into what happened.

Comments: I'm a dispatcher now and would be curious to know if indeed winds were forecast to be light and variable or if there was indeed some crosswind component to the landing. As earlier stated, while the winds at the sock may have been nil, that doesn't mean that there couldn't have been some wind component over the touchdown zone OR perhaps some wake turbulence that got things rolling (literally) and the pilot was in a position of contantly correcting. It's hard to conclude from the video and the comments here don't shed any light on anything other than the condition of the windsock.

As for the landing itself, some observations: First, the airplane landed in once piece and so did the people (more or less). It is extremely hard to state definitely that the pilot was at fault. We don't know if there was a wind gust or wake turbulence to which the pilot had to react. Was the landing ugly? Yep. Was the landing unsafe? Hard to say. Was there a good outcome: YES...everybody walked away. Everyone perhaps except the pilot who probably wanted just to find the nearest rock to crawl under.

Another observation about the 77W (77W pilots jump in here); the 77W lands pretty flat, there isn't too much flair because there is a lot of fuselage and tail behind the wings. I noticed that he buried the nose a little (may have been a little high on the approach) ... this isn't necessarily wrong, it's just an observation of the attitude of the airplane some 150-200 feet off the deck. At about 100 feet he pulls the nose above level, but it still looks ok, The wings seem to roll slightly back and forth as he makes the flair about 50 feet off the deck. Then things go really south.

I tried to slow down the video to see the ailerons moving to see if there was 'overinput'. While it was probably likely that he was attempting to correct, what appears to me is some left aileron input visible on the right wing, then it appeared either he tried to correct right and just as he did so a gust of wind from the left lifted the wing, causing the hard roll right (this was harder to see). I would find it hard to believe that input alone would have caused the right wing to roll so violently to the right which, because of the aircraft proximity to the ground, caused the right main landing gear to hit hard and bounce. The bounce on the right wing (plus perhaps some left aileron input) caused the left main gear to hit hard, but by then, things were already in motion. We also should remember to take ground effect into account as within 50 feet, the cushioning of ground effect can really make a little bit of roll turn into a lot of something, not necessarily good.

Was this a bad landing? For sure it's an ego killer for the pilot. However, the airplane got down in one piece and so did the passengers on it. I've seen much worse landing attempts, with mixed results. Two things I will say for certain:

1. Boeing builds a tough airplane. This bird got smacked down hard at least three times before both mains were firmly planted, then bounced a couple times more times on the right side as the occilations caused by the hard impact dampened out.
2. Don't blame the pilot. He ended up with a good result from a bad situation. We don't know if he caused the roll or if there was wind or wake turbulence that could have caused this event. Unless we know these things definitely, then I'll err on the side of the pilot getting out of a really crappie situation.

My guess is that he will be spending some time with his chief pilot explaining this one, and probably spending some additional time in the sim (with an instructor) going over how this happened, so that they learn from it and take corrective action. Each takeoff and landing is instructive (yes, pilots do not know it all, but they do learn pretty fast) and each incident is an opportunity to make flying safer.

I can say that this one will be really instructive.

baw716
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hoons90
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:36 pm

Quoting AMX748 (Reply 29):
So, maybe I will use Singapore A380 service instead of Korean. I've seen many turbulent landings at NRT, but KE landings are actually the most horrible of all, I wouldn't like to face the same fate of the FEDEX MD-11 which crashed on March 22nd 2009 at NRT

Although the decision is entirely yours, which I certainly respect, just remember that if you do change your mind, a dedicated, hard working team of professionals will be waiting for you to make sure that you get to your final destination safely.

While I certainly wouldn't go as far as to second guess the pilots just by looking at a few YouTube videos, I recognize that people make choices based on all sorts of different reasons. I'm sure that the people who are devoted enough to their careers and have the utmost pride in their line of work will not be put down by people who view them in an unfavorable (and I should mention unfair) light.

Seeing how well the airline is doing out of virtually all of its long haul stations, I guess they're doing something right.
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Max Q
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:55 pm

It was pretty awful.




I am impressed that the nosewheel did not collapse with all the stress they put on it !



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hugoandres1984
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:24 am

that was a bumpy landing but it was not bad at all. looks like a Gust on final
 
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ColAvionLover
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:26 am

Haha. I've laugh a lot reading these replies. Here are a few things I'd like to say:

Quoting propilot83 (Thread starter):
Crazy, this one made me laugh because it was so funny seeing the spoilers deploy and then retract hahaha  

The spoilers were like saying "Hey, Are you going to decide!? Landing Or G/A?"

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 11):
I guess the pilot is a former fighter pilot and just wanted to make sure that the pax knew that they really did touch down 

Hahaha!! That's a good one!

Quoting baw716 (Reply 30):
Was this a bad landing? For sure it's an ego killer for the pilot. However, the airplane got down in one piece and so did the passengers on it. I've seen much worse landing attempts, with mixed results.

Some Murhpy's Laws for Aviation regarding this video:

8th. A good landing is the one when people can get off the plane ok. A PERFECT landing is the one when the plane can be used again. (So, according to this, the pilot landed "perfectly").

19th. There are three rules for smooth landings. Unfortunately, nobody knows them. (So, let's not judge the pilot flying. Let's just laugh about him and its landing!  )

23th. There are two types of pilots: The ones that landed in the belly of a plane and the ones that will. (He missed just a little to be in the first group!)

24th. The number of jumping(s) in the landing of a plane is proportional to the number of persons watching it. (I loosed the count!)

Haha..

Quoting baw716 (Reply 30):
Another observation about the 77W (77W pilots jump in here); the 77W lands pretty flat, there isn't too much flair because there is a lot of fuselage and tail behind the wings.

I know you're talking about a 77W, don't know if you are referring specifically to the KE video, but the one in the video seems to be a 773, not a 77W.  


Well, we've enjoyed a lot here, but I personally would say that being on that plane will give all those passengers a bad image of the Airline. We know that the priority is to land but also pilots have to take in count that many of those 300+ passengers will be flying again and because of that impression, a good number won't fly again with KE, in the case of this video.  
JDM's
 
hoons90
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:56 am

Quoting ColAvionLover (Reply 34):
We know that the priority is to land but also pilots have to take in count that many of those 300 passengers will be flying again and because of that impression, a good number won't fly again with KE, in the case of this video.

That, I believe, qualifies as conjecture--judgment based on incomplete evidence or information. The YouTube video merely shows the landing itself from a plane spotter's vantage point, and one cannot know what exactly the pilots were thinking at that moment or why the pilots made the decisions that they have made.

I am not trying to argue that it wasn't a bad landing--it clearly was. However, I think it's only fair that people refrain from second guessing the pilots and jumping to conclusions when the whole story hasn't been told. As other posters have mentioned above, this incident may have had significant external components that may have kicked in at the very last minute. A spotter just happened to capture that moment on his camera. This is most certainly not a reflection or a reliable indicator of the airline's safety culture or standards. For every video of a bad KE landing, I'm sure there's videos for hundreds, if not, thousands of normal KE landings.

I will admit that I have an affinity for the airline in question, however I believe this is a fair and balanced assessment of the situation, and I will give the pilots the benefit of the doubt. I have called out against the airline and have not spared my criticism when it's due, but in this case, I don't believe any flak for the pilots is warranted until at least there is conclusive evidence that this landing was the result of piloting skills (or lack thereof). Any reasonable passenger on that flight should recognize that and make their future travel decisions accordingly. For the ones that don't--oh well, you simply can't please everybody, especially in this industry!

[Edited 2011-08-22 21:06:21]
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simpilot459
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:47 am

The people that immediately blame the pilot for some sort of wrong doing must not be pilots themselves. Every pilot has bad landings, from students to ATPs. Sometimes there just happens to be someone taking video.
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wukka
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:44 am

I dunno. Hard to tell on this one. The sock may be limp, but look at what happened just a week ago in Indianapolis at the fair. Gust ripped down an entire stage rig without touching other high profile stuff in the area.

Keep in mind that microbursts and other wind related phenomena weren't accepted until relatively few years ago when Mother Nature slammed a DL plane into the ground. That sock may have been in full force a few seconds after the video panned out... Does anyone know?

I'm not frequently on the side of the crew, but that bird looked quite stable at around 100'. It appears that something happened outside of the ordinary, or we actually do have FSX pilots up in front doing some serious overcorrections. I'm going with some odd wind slapping the plane around.
We can agree to disagree.
 
keegd76
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:49 am

Quoting WNwatcher (Reply 12):

Winds do not travel in a perfectly straight line. It's entirely possible that the winds where the windsock is were almost nil, while at the threshhold/touchdown spot, the winds were gusting quite strong.

Does that not then defeat the entire purpose of having a windsock in the first place?
Nothing comes down faster than a VTOL aircraft upside down.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing 777 Terrible Landing

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:54 pm

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 38):
Quoting WNwatcher (Reply 12):

Winds do not travel in a perfectly straight line. It's entirely possible that the winds where the windsock is were almost nil, while at the threshhold/touchdown spot, the winds were gusting quite strong.

Does that not then defeat the entire purpose of having a windsock in the first place?

No. Windsocks provide an instantaneous local picture of the wind...they're useful for spot checks and they work find for what they're designed to do (correctly indicate magnitude and direction of *steady* wind). For gusts, microweather patterns, etc. and windsock is neither designed nor expected to provide great data. That's why, among other things, the tower provides a wind report (including gusts and historical comments if appropriate) when they clear you to land.

Tom.

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