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steeler83
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Pittsburgh is not doing well lately.
*DL BOS-PIT NOV 3>0 DEC 3>0 JAN 3>0 FEB 3>0 MAR 3>0 APR 3>0
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
This was a dumb route DL should never have launched. It was doomed to fail.

Maybe if they would have used something other than a flying tuna can it would have had a chance. I was on a DL CR2 once (PHL-DTW), and that one time will be my last if I can help it...

I really don't know what DL is thinking as of late. They say, "oh, PIT-BOS is doing well for us," and then they turn around and do this (according to numerous other posts). On my way to SEA from PHL via DTW, our leg to DTW was supposed to be on an A319! They replaced that with a CRJ, which as you would know, resulted in an overbooking of the flight. I know the flight was overbooked because I got a notice saying that due to an equipment swap, the flight was overbooked and tried to put my wife and me on a different flight. I had an opportunity to fill out a survey regarding that swap, and I never got around to filling it out. I would have said, "HEY! The next time you swap out aircraft, make sure you replace it with enough seats!!!"

To be quite frank, coming back to PIT-BOS, I wasn't exactly sure of why it was started either. It's not a big enough market to support 3 airlines. Again, maybe if DL thought they had a shot at something on the route, they would've used bigger equipment (CR7 or E70/75 equipment) -- US has the RJ show on that route and B6 has a couple of E90s daily. I guess considering that, I think you'd have a better shot at seeing an earthquake in Virginia than you would turning a profit at B6 yields with a CR2...

Am I wrong with this assumption here?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
ScottB
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
AA is not having difficulty filling BOSLHR. It was a frequent NetSAAver, just like MIALHR, because it is protecting it's market share against Delta. The MIALHR, BOSLHR and MCOLHR markets were bloodbaths this summer. Cheap fares all around.

AA/BA are the clear incumbents in the market. I do understand that Delta has thrown a bunch of additional capacity into the market with the daily 767-400 and 757-200, but AA has also reduced capacity fairly dramatically over past years; AA used to exclusively operate the 777 between BOS & LHR (up until about four years ago), but all three frequencies this summer are on the 757.

AA is throwing the NetSAAvers into the market because they have unsold seats at the last minute, not to protect market share. The NetSAAvers aren't being bought by brand-insensitive passengers who are shopping on sites like Travelocity/Expedia/Orbitz; they're being purchased by people who subscribe to AA's emails and thus already have some level of customer relationship with AA. If they wanted to protect market share, they'd be running sale fares with carefully-controlled availability. NetSAAvers are all about dumping inventory which is likely to spoil.

Are you going to argue that CUR-MIA is on sale for next weekend because AA is trying to protect its market share against Insel Air?

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
So is there no service BDL-JFK? How do you get to Europe? drive to BOS? Don't they have one RT to AMS? I wonder if that is the culprit?

A lot of folks drive to JFK/BOS or take the Connecticut Limo to JFK. When you consider the likelihood of a delay on a feeder RJ flight into JFK, you're often better-off taking your chances with the Whitestone Bridge & Van Wyck. Hartford to BOS is doable in a bit over 90 minutes if the traffic isn't bad. I think at one point, Delta ran a 763 between BDL and JFK!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:32 pm

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 49):
Anybody know specifically which EAS markets Great Lakes is planning to submit a bid for? I would guess they are all around MSP. Delta has indicated they will puruse EAS subisidy for some markets including Escanaba, Waterloo, Sioux Falls, Bemidji, Hibbing and International Falls. I wonder if ZK will bid for all the other ones in the MSP web? I doubt they'd set up shop in DTW just for Alpena (for example) but who knows.

Listed below are the affected service, with what is known so far:

Thief River Falls, MN TVF EAS subsidized 12.0% load factor - no bidders
Greenville, MS GLH EAS subsidized 27.6% load factor - no bidders
Devils Lake, ND DVL EAS subsidized 30.3% load factor - no bidders
Watertown, SD ATY EAS subsidized 35.0% load factor - no bidders
Muscle Shoals, AL MSL EAS subsidized 35.7% load factor - no bidders
Fort Dodge, IA FOD EAS subsidized 39.1% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid
Hibbing, MN HIB EAS subsidized 39.2% load factor - no bidders
Alpena, MI APN EAS subsidized 39.5% load factor - no bidders
Tupelo, MS TUP EAS subsidized 41.0% load factor - no bidders
Jamestown, ND JMS EAS subsidized 42.1% load factor - no bidders
Mason City, IA MCW EAS subsidized 45.9% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid
Pierre, SD PIR Not EAS subsidized 47.4% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid, requesting subsidy
Iron Mountain, MI IMT EAS Subsidized 48.7% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid
Sioux City, IA SUX Not EAS subsidized 51.4% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
International Falls, MN INL EAS subsidized 52.5% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid
Brainerd, MN BRD Not EAS subsidized 52.6% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid, requesting subsidy
Hattiesburg, MS PIB EAS subsidized 53.7% load factor - no bidders
Escanaba MI ESC EAS subsidized 55.2% load factor - DL will re-bid requesting higher subsidy
Aberdeen, SD ABR Not EAS subsidized 55.6% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
Pellston MI PLN Not EAS subsidized 58.5% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
Bemidji, MN BJI Not EAS subsidized 59.3% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
Sault Ste Marie MI CIU EAS subsidized 60.0% load factor - DL will re-bid requesting higher subsidy
Waterloo, IA ALO Not EAS subsidized 61.4% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
Butte, MT BTM Not EAS subsidized 65.3% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:40 pm

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 50):
Maybe if they would have used something other than a flying tuna can it would have had a chance. I was on a DL CR2 once (PHL-DTW), and that one time will be my last if I can help it...

ONCE??? Some of us have spent so much time on a DL CR2, we've established residency and could vote from there!
  
 
BD338
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:59 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL SLC-BOI NOV 6>5 DEC 6>5 JAN 6>5 FEB 7>6 MAR 6>5 APR 7>5

A little surprising given that WN just abandoned this market and DL now have it to themselves. Though I guess it might be retracting the market capacity to match reality now that WN have been driven out.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL SLC-EWR DEC 1.9>1.3

..every week I open these threads hoping to see CO/UA EWR-SLC 1.0+ .....one of these days....
 
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LAXintl
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:16 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
DL is the patron saint of lost causes. I wonder how much they have lost in LAX-SFO? I do admire their willingness to compete.

Yes kinda amazing they opted to try hourly service again. Deja-vu back to the 1990s when they tried and again failed using 737s.

I can certainly see DL have 3-4 well timed connecting flights, but trying to run 11x daily was nuts. Going down to 7 while better still seems nuts imo.

For an idea of how DL is doing, here as posted in another thread recently is the average fare generated by carriers between LA-SF.

SFO-LAX
VX - $114.01
UA - $113.50
AA - $104.39
WN - $103.49
DL - $87.49
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MAH4546
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:14 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 51):
AA used to exclusively operate the 777 between BOS & LHR (up until about four years ago), but all three frequencies this summer are on the 757.

Which is an increase in capacity. It was 13 weekly 772s during the summer. It is now 21 weekly 75Ls. AA has gone from 3,211 seats a week, each way, to 3,822, an increase of ~20%.

AA had NetSAAver fares for one reason: it was matching Delta's insanely low BOSLHR fares. Plain and simple. Whether or not AA makes money on BOSLHR we can't really answer (the answer is likely yes, since it shares all revenue with BA and it's flights), but the planes go out full during the summer.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 51):
Are you going to argue that CUR-MIA is on sale for next weekend because AA is trying to protect its
market share against Insel Air?

No. It is the off season in Curacao. Makes sense.

Are you going to argue MIALHR is a poor performing AA route with low loads? Because it had NetSAAver fares all summer, too. And business class fares as low as $1,400 to match
Delta's sale.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 51):
AA is throwing the NetSAAvers into the market because they have unsold seats at the last minute, not to protect market share. The NetSAAvers aren't being bought by brand-insensitive passengers who are shopping on sites like Travelocity/Expedia/Orbitz; they're being purchased by people who subscribe to AA's
emails and thus already have some level of customer relationship with AA. If they wanted to protect market share, they'd be running sale fares with carefully-controlled availability. NetSAAvers are all about dumping inventory which is likely to spoil.

While intra-North America NetSaaver fares often won't show up on other search engines, Europe/Asia fare sales do. The "NetSAAver" fare often matches the lowest inventory bucket in the GDS or is within a few dollars of it.

[Edited 2011-08-25 16:28:34]
a.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:43 pm

While I appreciate these weekly updates since they hightlight schedule changes, I get very frustrated at the unbased assumptions and hypothesis that are always stated in these posts.

People simply ASSUME that when they see a schedule change that it MUST be because airline X is beating airline Y, or vice-versa. There are so many factors that go into creating these schedules that it is never as simple as some people assume.

The environment changes year over year, month over month. Schedules are adjusted for economic reasons. Routes that made sense when cheaper fuel, may not be able to get sufficient demand at higher costs and in turn higher ticket prices.

I get annoyed at the rampant spectulation and guessing that gets thrown around as fact on here. Then other posters that are often closer to the situation at hand have to them defend what is actually occuring (if anyone even knows at all).
 
HPRamper
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:33 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 47):
DL flying PIT-BOS was dumb to begin with, BUT I think the population of PIT deserves some blame for not supporting PIT-PHL on WN. The fares will now skyrocket. I hope they enjoy driving now.

It still hasn't, and I hold out hope that US will exercise some restraint on the route. Looking well into the future, round trip fare PIT-PHL is still $138 into March (quite reasonable in my opinion) and only in April does it appear to increase, to $152. This looks to be through the entire month so most likely not just a temporary hike for spring break. Time will tell if the fares go up gradually from $152 or if they stay in that general area. A $14 hike in fares seems tiny considering the airline just gained route exclusivity.
 
ScottB
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:46 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 56):
AA had NetSAAver fares for one reason: it was matching Delta's insanely low BOSLHR fares. Plain and simple. Whether or not AA makes money on BOSLHR we can't really answer (the answer is likely yes, since it shares all revenue with BA and it's flights), but the planes go out full during the summer.

If the planes are going out full, they don't need to run a NetSAAver to fill seats close-in.
 
flyguy89
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:57 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 59):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 56):
AA had NetSAAver fares for one reason: it was matching Delta's insanely low BOSLHR fares. Plain and simple. Whether or not AA makes money on BOSLHR we can't really answer (the answer is likely yes, since it shares all revenue with BA and it's flights), but the planes go out full during the summer.

If the planes are going out full, they don't need to run a NetSAAver to fill seats close-in.

You're making a circular argument here that cannot be won. Unless you have exclusive, unrestricted access to AA's load factors, yields, and net profitability or loss on these routes you can't definitively pronounce on them either way. MAH's argument is just as plausible as yours and vice versa based upon the info here, although I personally think what MAH4546 is saying makes the most sense given the dominance AA has on these routes both in BOS and MIA.
 
delta2ual
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 57):
I get annoyed at the rampant spectulation and guessing that gets thrown around as fact on here. Then other posters that are often closer to the situation at hand have to them defend what is actually occuring (if anyone even knows at all).

Very well put. You're the first person on my respected users list. (I never knew how to do this before) LOL
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
alasizon
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:03 am

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AS PDX-SNA JAN 4>3 FEB 5>3

I don't think SNA has ever dropped to 3x daily in Feb.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AS SEA-LAX NOV 11>10 DEC 11>10 JAN 11>9 FEB 12>10

Seems like another seasonal cut by AS that frees up some of the 738s to go operate other routes that need them in the winter season. Plus VX and B6(from LGB) as more than capable of handling the additional loads.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AS PDX-LAX FEB 6>5

I would've expected this one to hold steady. LFs are usually pretty good in Feb (and March as well). Though I wonder if the drop in QX flying is to blame here.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:28 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):

DL LAX-CMH DEC 0.5>0.2
DL LAX-IND DEC 0.6>0.3
DL LAX-MSY DEC 1.8>1.3
DL LAX-RDU DEC 0.5>0.2
*DL LAX-SFO DEC 11>7 JAN 11>7 FEB 12>10
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 55):
SFO-LAX
VX - $114.01
UA - $113.50
AA - $104.39
WN - $103.49
DL - $87.49

Delta never seems to learn any lessons from its rounds of failures at LAX. IMHO it all goes back to Deltas problem of not being able to get LAX based flyers plain and simple. The majority of flyers all think of or are loyal to VX, UA, AA or WN before Delta enters the memory banks. Think about how huge a list of LAX routes Delta has cancelled and been totally inconsistent on over the last 10 years at LAX its hard for the average flyer to be loyal to them unless your flying to Delta hubs exclusively.

Delta on the LAX-SFO is clearly an after thought and they are getting the low fare surfers of the web. Thats a pretty significant distance from the pack too they should fly maybe a few RJs a day for connections and a few seats for the loyal flyers? Seems like another reduction is certainly possible/likely for Delta when they reduce SAC, OAK, SAN, and SFO in the distant future after they loose too much money yet again at LAX
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:43 pm

I typed in a few random dates in November and December and no mainline when does/did delta switch to all RJs and ditch mainline totally on the LAX-SFO route?
 
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OA412
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:10 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
DL is the patron saint of lost causes. I wonder how much they have lost in LAX-SFO? I do admire their willingness to compete.

While these threads were initially interesting, your dramatics, and over-the-top statements have turned a lot of us off to them. You know that this is not true, and that you are being overly dramatic. LAX-SFO is one of those markets they have to serve if they want any chance at a corporate following in the Los Angeles area. I doubt that DL thought they would make any money on the route. Given those average fares, I HIGHLY doubt that either AA or UA are making money either.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 63):

More of your unsupported claims vis-a-vis DL and LAX. Do you have anything to back up your claims, or are you just shooting from the hip again?
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
Cubsrule
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 65):
Do you have anything to back up your claims, or are you just shooting from the hip again?

Delta has had several rounds of abject failure at LAX, perhaps most obviously the dismantling of the small hub/large focus inherited from WA and the almost complete drawdown of the 2007/2008 buildup. I'm not sure why that historical fact offends you so. And I do think that history contributes to their well-documented lack of brand recognition in Los Angeles. The more interesting - and more difficult - question is how much that matters.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
delta2ual
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:15 am

Quoting cubsrule (Reply 66):
well-documented lack of brand recognition in Los Angeles

I don't think it has anything to do with that. I highly doubt there are THAT many people in Southern California (especially if they travel at all) that do not know who Delta Air Lines is. They've been around now for 80 years and are the 2nd largest airline in the world.
LAX has two types of customers (as most airports do), but they have many more airlines serving them. Corporate/business flyers need to be pried from AA, UA, and AS (to a lesser extent)- they have been established there for a very long time. Leisure travelers need to be pulled from WN (which is very formidable), VX, AS, and JetBlue, to a lesser extent. DL can forget about most of the corporate contracts, which leaves the "bottom feeders". You get them by having the lowest fare-nothing else. If the only way to fill your planes is to charge a price so low you don't make money, the route gets axed. I give them credit for at least trying. I fault them for ever losing LAX after the Western merger in the first place.
They should just focus on flying to their hubs, and the major point-to-point where they can at least break even. They will have their hands full with NYC for a while anyway.
Lastly, I hope you're not one of those Cubs fans who leaves beer cans in front of my place (I live less than a mile from Wrigley) LOL
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
cbphoto
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
*ZK LBL-PUB OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0 DEC 0>1.0 JAN 0>1.0 FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0
Quoting sw733 (Reply 11):
Your asterisk is agreed upon by me...very odd route!

Actually, it's not odd at all, its just going to be a tag on flight, most likely early in the morning. As to why you can book it, that's actually a little odd. My guess it will be a LBL-PUB-DEN flight. In the event of Irregular ops, PUB is usually the first to get scrubbed and often times is flag stopped with LBL!

Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
ZK LAS-PGA OCT 1.0>0 NOV 1.0>0 DEC 1.0>0 JAN 1.0>0 FEB 1.0>0

This is odd, I guess no more PGA-LAS? It took for ever to finally start the route, guess it just did not perform!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
Cubsrule
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:44 am

Quoting Delta2ual (Reply 67):
Corporate/business flyers need to be pried from AA, UA, and AS (to a lesser extent)- they have been established there for a very long time. Leisure travelers need to be pulled from WN (which is very formidable), VX, AS, and JetBlue, to a lesser extent. DL can forget about most of the corporate contracts, which leaves the "bottom feeders"

I live in a market that's about as fragmented as LAX is, and I'm not sure this is correct. My experience here has been that everyone has a first choice and a second choice (and some even have a third choice) because no carrier can be everything to everyone since no one has a 500 flight hub. For me, I do a lot of traveling to WN cities (Jacksonville, Tampa, Denver, Las Vegas) so WN is one of the top two and I do a lot of intra-southeast traveling (CRW, CAE, TLH) so US is the other. But that varies - many are AA/DL, AA/WN, DL/WN, etc. If L.A. is like that, then all DL has to do to pick up some business travelers is find a niche that no one else serves very well, and the business travelers will then pick DL at least some of the time when they have a lot of other choices (e.g to NRT) or when they are going to have to connect regardless (e.g. to JAX). The tough question is what that niche is.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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LAXintl
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:46 am

Quoting Delta2ual (Reply 67):
I don't think it has anything to do with that. I highly doubt there are THAT many people in Southern California (especially if they travel at all) that do not know who Delta Air Lines is.

I don't know how many times I need to post it, however there is something called "mind share" in advertising - essentially consumer awareness of your product.

Companies like Nielsen and Arbitron Media, do regular market research in US media markets covering all types of products and services. Delta today continues to score essentially zero in the grand scale of things locally. When asked about airlines, people in the LA media market simply don't even mention Delta as a choice as a response. Even Mexicana which has been dead for 1-year now scores higher!

And I think Delta knows this, and is trying to do various things like sponsorships with the LA Kings and Staples Center for advertising etc.
However its can be very costly to get your name and message out above all the other media noise in LA.
I guess its kinda like NYC, where AA-CO-DL for ages have spent millions touting their respective long-haul flying with minimal marketshare shifts.

One interesting comment I heard from DL management at the opening of the new SkyClub was that they were not necessarily looking to fill planes with Angelenos, but looking to provide service for those folks that wanted to come to LA as a destination, many which were already established DL flyers. Maybe the realization of building local brand awareness is a very costly and difficult

Quoting Delta2ual (Reply 67):
and AS

AS has been shrinking a lot at LAX.
The AS/QX presence is much small then it was only a few years ago. Enplanement are down over 25% in 3-years.

Quoting Delta2ual (Reply 67):
Leisure travelers need to be pulled from WN

You'd be surprised at the number of suits on WN. They literally are the company plane for many people with their 100+ daily flights between SoCal and the Bay Area.

Quoting Delta2ual (Reply 67):
I fault them for ever losing LAX after the Western merger in the first place.

Indeed. A strategic blunder they never been able to recover from.

Also loosing Skywest from a DL feeder to UA created a permanent major shift in West Coast feeder markets.

Quoting Delta2ual (Reply 67):
They should just focus on flying to their hubs, and the major point-to-point where they can at least break even. They will have their hands full with NYC for a while anyway.

Agree. At this point they should focus on their natural strengths. I've never believed every airline needs to be in every market.
Its a costly futile battle to try to be everything to everyone.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
apodino
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:01 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 70):


Also loosing Skywest from a DL feeder to UA created a permanent major shift in West Coast feeder markets.

Wait a minute? Skywest still is a DL feeder out west. The UA contract was added later, but the DL contract never went away. I don't get what you are trying to say.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:10 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 71):
Wait a minute? Skywest still is a DL feeder out west. The UA contract was added later, but the DL contract never went away. I don't get what you are trying to say.

The California SkyWest operation was originally operated as DL*. After UA cancelled its affiliation with Mesa/WestAir in the early 90's, SkyWest switched the operation to UA*. That is actually how SkyWest got into the UAX system, before this they were exclusively DL Connection.
 
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enilria
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:42 pm

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 50):
To be quite frank, coming back to PIT-BOS, I wasn't exactly sure of why it was started either.

Like MIA-JAX, it was a feed route to help out their struggling LHR service. Either BOS-LHR got better and didn't need the feed or BOS-PIT was losing too much money.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 51):
Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
So is there no service BDL-JFK? How do you get to Europe? drive to BOS? Don't they have one RT to AMS? I wonder if that is the culprit?

A lot of folks drive to JFK/BOS or take the Connecticut Limo to JFK. When you consider the likelihood of a delay on a feeder RJ flight into JFK, you're often better-off taking your chances with the Whitestone Bridge & Van Wyck. Hartford to BOS is doable in a bit over 90 minutes if the traffic isn't bad. I think at one point, Delta ran a 763 between BDL and JFK!

You'd think it could support a CRJ.  
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 53):
ONCE??? Some of us have spent so much time on a DL CR2, we've established residency and could vote from there!

Yeah, I don't know how somebody flies often and have only once been on a CR2.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 54):
A little surprising given that WN just abandoned this market and DL now have it to themselves. Though I guess it might be retracting the market capacity to match reality now that WN have been driven out.

Not surprising. It happens here all the time. No competition=higher fares=less capacity needed. Sad, really...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 55):
I can certainly see DL have 3-4 well timed connecting flights, but trying to run 11x daily was nuts. Going down to 7 while better still seems nuts imo.

It will go back to 11. It is fair to say, however, that it must not be doing well to make such a dramatic service cut even if it is only seasonal. It's not like it's going to be snowing in LAX this Winter.  
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 55):
For an idea of how DL is doing, here as posted in another thread recently is the average fare generated by carriers between LA-SF.

SFO-LAX
VX - $114.01
UA - $113.50
AA - $104.39
WN - $103.49
DL - $87.49

WOW... What is truly amazing is that a struggling LCC has the highest fare.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 56):
but the planes go out full during the summer.

That is true of 99.999% of routes and doesn't really mean too much.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 64):
I typed in a few random dates in November and December and no mainline when does/did delta switch to all RJs and ditch mainline totally on the LAX-SFO route?

Mainline has been out for several months and there is no planned resumption.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 65):
While these threads were initially interesting, your dramatics, and over-the-top statements have turned a lot of us off to them. You know that this is not true, and that you are being overly dramatic.

That Delta is the "patron saint of lost causes"? Yes, they try a lot of stuff that fails. Most of the reason is that *they try a lot of stuff*. AirTran was the same way. At one point AirTran had dropped more routes than they were presently flying. If the airline you love drops a route don't take it personally. Delta is one of the country's most profitable airlines, it's not like they are in financial trouble. Delta is also very combative. They have jumped on F9 like 4 times pre/post merger.

But bottom line, I get paid nothing if you read this thread and nothing if you don't read the thread, so if you think I am going to hold back my opinions to gain a few extra views you are mistaken. Just make your own thread, I don't have a monopoly on schedule threads.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 65):
LAX-SFO is one of those markets they have to serve if they want any chance at a corporate following in the Los Angeles area.

Correct

Quoting OA412 (Reply 65):
Given those average fares, I HIGHLY doubt that either AA or UA are making money either.

Didn't say anything about AA or UA...it's probable that nobody is making money on the route.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:10 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 71):
Wait a minute? Skywest still is a DL feeder out west. The UA contract was added later, but the DL contract never went away. I don't get what you are trying to say.

As usflyermsp mentions, Skywest used to be the California feeder for Delta which it inherited from Western.

But during mid-1990s Skywest signed up with United instead to feed its LAX and SFO hubs along with other intra-Western flying including up in the Pacific NW. Overnight Delta lost the feed and connectivity to cities which the 115 or so Skywest DL Connection LAX flights provided.

What you see Skywest doing for Delta to in SLC today is a small shadow of the much larger relationship the carriers had in the Western US.

Back to my point - Delta loosing this feed was a major blow in my view in its attempts to make LAX a focus/hub. Overnight it lost connection to dozen+ communities and the thousand of folks they provided potentially on a daily basis to make a LAX operation churn.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
apodino
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 74):

But during mid-1990s Skywest signed up with United instead to feed its LAX and SFO hubs along with other intra-Western flying including up in the Pacific NW. Overnight Delta lost the feed and connectivity to cities which the 115 or so Skywest DL Connection LAX flights provided.

One would think Delta would have fought harder to keep OO. This was right about the start of the RJ boom, but it was still long before the regionals flew for more than one carrier which is so common today.
 
ScottB
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:21 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 75):
One would think Delta would have fought harder to keep OO.

One would think that if one would think Delta would have fought harder to keep the LAX hub they inherited from WA. But if they weren't going to maintain a hub at LAX, then the OO intra-California feed wasn't going to be much help (and the lack of a mainline hub weakened the OO operation).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 70):
I don't know how many times I need to post it, however there is something called "mind share" in advertising - essentially consumer awareness of your product.

Companies like Nielsen and Arbitron Media, do regular market research in US media markets covering all types of products and services. Delta today continues to score essentially zero in the grand scale of things locally. When asked about airlines, people in the LA media market simply don't even mention Delta as a choice as a response. Even Mexicana which has been dead for 1-year now scores higher!

And that's an incredibly important point. There's an enormous difference between asking "have you heard of Delta Air Lines?" with an affirmative response and asking "what airlines do you think of when planning your travel?" with Delta being one of the top three. In the L.A. area, I'd bet that the majority of the latter group are either transplants from other cities where Delta is a leading carrier or people who have stayed loyal even since the former WA hub was shuttered. I wouldn't be all that surprised if Angelenos asked to "name an airline" said PSA before Delta.

I'm actually shocked at how the network carriers (US, DL, & AA) have essentially allowed JetBlue to walk into Boston and become the market leader in just a few years. But gaining mind share in a market like L.A. takes a huge amount of perseverance, and Delta's hub attempts so far haven't had that.
 
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enilria
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:33 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 76):
I'm actually shocked at how the network carriers (US, DL, & AA) have essentially allowed JetBlue to walk into Boston and become the market leader in just a few years.

I think a lot of the answer is geography. A big buzzword for airline planners is "overflying". Why are we overflying our hub in EWR/LGA/JFK/PHL/IAD/etc is a question always being asked. Because most airlines have Northeast hubs and BOS isn't really on the way anywhere (except Europe where it is in the shadow of NYC), airlines cut overflying from BOS and flew only to their hubs. B6 was smart enough to not fall into the same thinking with their other NE hub.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 76):
I wouldn't be all that surprised if Angelenos asked to "name an airline" said PSA before Delta.

Probably true... Traditionally, it would be very hard to be an elite in DL's program and live in LAX. You would need to have an aversion to non-stop flights or only be going to a handful of cities that happen to be Delta hubs.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:49 pm

Quoting Delta2ual (Reply 67):
Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
ZK LAS-PGA OCT 1.0>0 NOV 1.0>0 DEC 1.0>0 JAN 1.0>0 FEB 1.0>0

This is odd, I guess no more PGA-LAS? It took for ever to finally start the route, guess it just did not perform!

I took this flight last week, to log PGA. We flew about ten miles north of the Grand Canyon all the way from LAS to PGA. The view was incredible!

I'm glad I flew the route while I had the chance. It's a shame to see it going away.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:23 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 74):


But during mid-1990s Skywest signed up with United instead to feed its LAX and SFO hubs along with other intra-Western flying including up in the Pacific NW. Overnight Delta lost the feed and connectivity to cities which the 115 or so Skywest DL Connection LAX flights provided.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading an ATW article on OO during the 90's. According to OO, it was DL who pared back LAX first, and the OO spokesman said "at that point we were feeding air"...and UA came in with an offer for a California code-share, and that's when OO switched Cali to UA.

Like I said, my memory and the timing may be off, but if IIRC DL basically forced OO into UA's arms at LAX and SFO when DL de-emphasized LAX post WA.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
delta2ual
Posts: 559
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 70):
don't know how many times I need to post it

Well, thanks for posting it again-I hadn't seen/heard that.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 76):
And that's an incredibly important point. There's an enormous difference between asking "have you heard of Delta Air Lines?" with an affirmative response and asking "what airlines do you think of when planning your travel?" with Delta being one of the top three.

That's true. I guess that does make a huge difference. I remember PanAm being the most recognized US airline logo in many parts of the world, years after they were gone.
Like I said, DL needs to focus on NYC right now and this slot swap before wasting any more money on LAX. They still have a decent operation. I say let UA and AA duke it out. That will be interesting!
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
delta2ual
Posts: 559
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:16 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL MSP-TVC NOV 1.0>0 DEC 1.0>0 JAN 1.0>0 FEB 1.0>0
*DL MSP-TYS NOV 0.9>0.0 DEC 0.8>0 JAN 0.9>0 FEB 0.9>0

Both resume 3/1/2012

Quoting sw733 (Reply 11):
DL DTW-OKC DEC 3>1.8

Surprises me. Seems like a big cut for a city of that size

December reduction only

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 21):
I've heard we're going to see another couple changes in the next few weeks with Boston. A new route, perhaps? Seasonal adjustments? Hopefully something exciting!

Sept 3rd sched isn't loaded, so it's still "proprietary and confidential" information-but nothing exciting really stands out.


And BTW, LAX-RDU and LAX-IND are cnxl 12/1-12/16 only at this time.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 55):
Yes kinda amazing they opted to try hourly service again.

According to internal info., the LAX-SFO reduction is planned for 12/01-2/15 FWIW
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
cbphoto
Posts: 1258
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:23 am

RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:59 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 78):
I took this flight last week, to log PGA. We flew about ten miles north of the Grand Canyon all the way from LAS to PGA. The view was incredible!

Yeah, it really is a gorgeous route! Once, PGA was closed due to an aircraft incident on the runway, so we did LAS-CNY non-stop and flew right over both Zion and Bryce Canyon national parks, both were truly breathtaking!

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 68):
Actually, it's not odd at all, its just going to be a tag on flight, most likely early in the morning. As to why you can book it, that's actually a little odd. My guess it will be a LBL-PUB-DEN flight. In the event of Irregular ops, PUB is usually the first to get scrubbed and often times is flag stopped with LBL!

After I typed this, I remembered that ZK is actually in the process of returning some 7 1900s back to Raytheon, so with some of our aircraft leaving the fleet, you might see more tag-on routes added to the schedule to reduce the amount of aircraft needed to sustain the route network. Interesting though, to see how we can manage the flying out of MSP (if we bid it) with these 7 planes gone!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
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LAXintl
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RE: OAG Changes 8/26/2011: AA/AS/DL/FL/UA/US

Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 79):
Like I said, my memory and the timing may be off, but if IIRC DL basically forced OO into UA's arms at LAX and SFO when DL de-emphasized LAX post WA.

There certainly might have been behind the scenes issues between DL and OO which pushed them towards United, however I dont think the LAX flight schedule volume as the ultimate reason.
For the two years prior to the switch DL ran about 61-70 mainline flights (depending on season) at LAX. Sure its down from a peak of 100'ish post Western, but was still a good presence.

Also I'm not sure how much OO would care if it fed empty flights, as it was a fee-for-departure operation. The risk was on DL not on OO with the exeption of some markets like Inyokern, Imperial, or Yuma that OO chose to operate on its own.

But either way, the shift from DL to UA, deprived DL to the 110'ish daily OO feeder flights, which provided important coverage up and down California which must have further impacted the viability of their LAX footprint.

Quoting Delta2ual (Reply 80):
Well, thanks for posting it again-I hadn't seen/heard that.

No worries. I've posted it a few times in the DL LAX discussions, but seems to get lost with all the mud slinging.

The way things work, just because an airlines adds flights does not mean people automatically come.
It takes lots of marketing to build a brand, and even more to build loyalty to it.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California

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