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xdlx
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:59 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 47):

I do realize that the MD88/90 will be utilized until the end of the decade.

The question is with the non common types, does it cost more to operate the A332/3 spares, rotables, etc.
or can they be traded for 77L or 77W. This order obviously is aimed at domestic 150-180pax aircraft flying
under 2200nm. Most of the A319/20 and B752 early vintage (around 80-100 airplanes) And few early non
ETOPS 763 up in cycles.

Again newer A319/20 A332/3 B75/63/64 will soldier on and difficult to phase out until their useful life
is well utilized. The current CR7/9 E17/9 CRJ/ERJ fleet will take a while to convert to C-series.
I do not see DL replacing the B744 with another quad, it most likely will go the way of the 77W.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:56 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
The question is with the non common types

Non-common types? Each fleet is sufficiently large enough to be its own. Again, fleet commonality, the most overly-played assertion on a.net.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
does it cost more to operate the A332/3 spares, rotables, etc.
or can they be traded for 77L or 77W.

Traded? Why would Boeing want to trade? The cost outlay would be absolutely huge and not something DL would do will they are being very conservative about the capital spending. DL has higher priorities to replace equipment that is approaching the end of its usable life, and will for the next decade, than to go and replace much newer and still economical aircraft.

Keep in mind the A330 fleet is larger than the 777 fleet, plus all of the A330s are newer than the 77Es.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
The current CR7/9 E17/9 CRJ/ERJ fleet will take a while to convert to C-series.

Why? They are totally different animals.

The CR7/9 E170/175 are all new and will be in the fleets for a long time. These are not candidates to be replaced by C-series.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
The question is with the non common types, does it cost more to operate the A332/3 spares, rotables, etc.

No. The fleet is robust enough.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
or can they be traded for 77L or 77W

Why would they do this?
What gets measured gets done.
 
flyorski
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:45 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
The question is with the non common types, does it cost more to operate the A332/3 spares, rotables, etc.
or can they be traded for 77L or 77W. This order obviously is aimed at domestic 150-180pax aircraft flying
under 2200nm. Most of the A319/20 and B752 early vintage (around 80-100 airplanes) And few early non
ETOPS 763 up in cycles.

It sounds to me like you are really praying that Delta will get rid of the Airbus fleet it operates. The fact is Delta exists TO MAKE MONEY not to fly aircraft based on emotion. They will choose the aircraft that brings the most value to the company and keep the aircraft as long as its the best decision to do so. Which company builds the aircraft is not something that guides the fleet decisions.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
xdlx
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting flyorski (Reply 53):

No one is talking emotions. From the very begining in Delta history, they have had a balanced
approach to fleet renewal. For example when DL entered the jet age, it ordered DC8 ( DL was
a longstanding Douglas customer) and also the CV880/990.

We are trying to see where DL flies and how the fleet renewal fits in the future.

I could really care less if the order the Sukoi instead of the C-series or an Arbi instead of a Boeing.
 
delimit
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:00 pm

Well, you have your answer then. The 330s are most likely staying. They will probably be replaced with 787s a LONG time from now.

As for single aisles, it does seem more likely that Delta will standardize on the 737. The 321 offers the most compelling reason to go Airbus and they've obviously decided against it. I expect we'll see more 800s with a smooth transition over to the reengined versions.

At the low end, I am hoping C Series, but we won't know for a while.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:07 am

Quoting Delimit (Reply 55):
Well, you have your answer then. The 330s are most likely staying. They will probably be replaced with 787s a LONG time from now.

As for single aisles, it does seem more likely that Delta will standardize on the 737. The 321 offers the most compelling reason to go Airbus and they've obviously decided against it. I expect we'll see more 800s with a smooth transition over to the reengined versions.

At the low end, I am hoping C Series, but we won't know for a while.

I agree with everything here, though I'm not sure we can rule out the Airbus just yet. If next week the BoD at Boeing gives the green light to the RE (which seems likely), then I'm guessing it wouldn't be long before we know if DL is interested in getting in line for any of those. The longer they wait, the better chance there is that Airbus remains in the running.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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par13del
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:45 pm

Quoting WN738 (Reply 26):
I honestly didnot think the 737NG (any variant) would get any more orders (certainly not this big) now that the A320 NEO, a plane i reluctantly admit is far superior, is selling like hotcakes.
Quoting flyorski (Reply 53):
The fact is Delta exists TO MAKE MONEY not to fly aircraft based on emotion. They will choose the aircraft that brings the most value to the company and keep the aircraft as long as its the best decision to do so. Which company builds the aircraft is not something that guides the fleet decisions.

What has to be remembered for most US carriers is that single aisle a/c are mostly deployed on domestic routes, so even if AA or others operate NEO a/c which are deemed to be superior, if that is not in all flight profiles it will be no different than current operations. The A330 supposedly killed the 767 yet it is being used profotably by carriers around the word, there are other examples, and based on those I do not see the NEO being any different, ditto for the 787 and the A350.
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:33 pm

Okay, now we have word that Delta's rejection of Airbus did not have to do with "delivery positions and slot availability" that many people have said was the main reason for the Boeing choice.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20Some%20Questions%20Open&next=10

Slot availability was nothing but an excuse. Sure the articel points out that price had something to do with it as well, but the whole "Airbus was booked" excuse was a joke. Maybe, just maybe, the 737 was a better plane to Delta.

Perhaps  Wow!
 
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Stitch
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:52 pm

As DL operates both the 737-800 and A320-200, and a brand new A321-200LGW and a brand new 737-900ER have similar values, I expect both OEMs found themselves competing on price. However, with the two so similar in performance and value, Boeing likely would not have needed to undercut Airbus by much to win the business (nor Airbus undercut Boeing by much, if they had won the business).

I would not be surprised if UA's fleet renewal comes down more to price than anything else, nor would I be surprised if that price was only a bit lower than the losing RFP.
 
ytz
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:35 pm

As much as I'd love to see the CSeries notch up DL as a customer, I am wondering why they wouldn't go with 73G/A319s to maintain commonality with the Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies?

Also, the DC9s will be gone from Delta's hangars before the CSeries is even in the hangar of a single customer. So why the need for a DC9 sized replacement when the MD88/90s have been doing an alright job?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 60):
As much as I'd love to see the CSeries notch up DL as a customer, I am wondering why they wouldn't go with 73G/A319s to maintain commonality with the Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies?

If it hits it's targets, the CSeries will offer lower operating costs compared to the A319neo and 737-7, to say nothing of the A319 and 73G.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:54 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 31):
but with 18 firm 787's on order

These could be sold off to a lessor if need be. But it's highly unlikely the hundreds of 737s would all be replaced by NEOs before an all new NB is on offer.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 61):
If it hits it's targets, the CSeries will offer lower operating costs compared to the A319neo and 737-7, to say nothing of the A319 and 73G.

And it's been shown that for the longer range missions, the A320 and 738 are better suited anyway. Even WN is learning this.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:02 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 60):
I am wondering why they wouldn't go with 73G/A319s to maintain commonality with the Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies?

They are much heavier and have a alarger capacity than they anticipate they need. That would be my guess, but I personally would love to see more B737-700's in the fleet. Don't care much about the A319 or A320 for that matter, hate the noise from their engines.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
ytz
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:57 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 61):
If it hits it's targets, the CSeries will offer lower operating costs compared to the A319neo and 737-7, to say nothing of the A319 and 73G.

I know the operating costs are lower. I was just wondering if that's sufficient for an airline to then have to deal with that the commonality issues for one type...essentially one sub-type. I could for example see it being worthwhile if they were going to operate the CS100 and CS300. But are the hassles worthwhile for just the CS300?

But I am most certainly cheering for Bombardier here....
=======
More broadly on this order...here's my rough math:
-They wanted to keep capex at $1.2-$1.4 billion per year.
-Averaging at $1.3, that works out to $7.8 billion from 2013 to 2018, for 200 airplanes.
-That's $39 million per airplane.

This leaves me wondering:
-Was Delta being deceitful about future capex?
-How much is Boeing discounting these airplanes?
-Can Bombardier really price airplanes that low to get this order?
-Or are we going to see far fewer airplanes in the second order (50-70 a/c)?
 
delimit
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:00 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 64):
This leaves me wondering:
-Was Delta being deceitful about future capex?
-How much is Boeing discounting these airplanes?
-Can Bombardier really price airplanes that low to get this order?
-Or are we going to see far fewer airplanes in the second order (50-70 a/c)?

Shouldn't the order extending beyond 2018 be considered?

I understood the 2018 end date to be specific to the 900ER order.
 
col
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:01 am

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 58):
Slot availability was nothing but an excuse. Sure the articel points out that price had something to do with it as well, but the whole "Airbus was booked" excuse was a joke.

I think if you read the article closely, you will see that the joke is actually the article itself. I do not believe Airbus ever said it was booked, but the article tells us that Airbus has a full orderbook. It then tells us that Airbus does not, by saying 320's were available. He also guess's that Airbus did not lower their price because of their orderbook situation.

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 58):
Maybe, just maybe, the 737 was a better plane to Delta.

Yes, and maybe that is why they purchased 100, the best package was from Boeing.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:39 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 60):
Also, the DC9s will be gone from Delta's hangars before the CSeries is even in the hangar of a single customer. So why the need for a DC9 sized replacement when the MD88/90s have been doing an alright job?

When you're as big as DL, you can operate "OK" without the perfect mix of aircraft sizes. They are probably judging that it's better to go without a small aircraft for awhile, and abuse either MD-88s or regional aircraft, than to bother with heavy checks and fuel costs on DC-9s until the C-Series (or the Embraer competitor) is available.

I still don't think all 100 of the second tranche of orders will be for small aircraft. More likely they will need 40-50 small aircraft and 50-60 re-engined Boeings or Airbus to begin MD-88 retirement and continue 757 retirement.
 
SASMD82
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting Delimit (Reply 55):
The 330s are most likely staying. They will probably be replaced with 787s a LONG time from now

.

So basically this is quite irrational don't you think  


Sorry to be slightly off the topic but with the recent order of AA, are 'gentleman agreements' still likely in the future? Isn't it more feasible to opt for the best aircraft that suits your network?
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:45 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 58):
Slot availability was nothing but an excuse. Sure the articel points out that price had something to do with it as well, but the whole "Airbus was booked" excuse was a joke. Maybe, just maybe, the 737 was a better plane to Delta.

I just read that whole article twice and it basically said the opposite of what you just said.

I'm not calling you a liar, but I don't see how you could have read the same article as me.

NS
 
delimit
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:03 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 68):
So basically this is quite irrational don't you think


Sorry to be slightly off the topic but with the recent order of AA, are 'gentleman agreements' still likely in the future? Isn't it more feasible to opt for the best aircraft that suits your network?

Um...yes? Hence, 787s. Unless you are going to be a daring iconoclast and suggest the 330s will be replaced with more 330s. Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting Delimit (Reply 70):
Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.

But way less so than it was supposed to be. Not to mention, when will you get one?

NS
 
SASMD82
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:12 pm

Quoting Delimit (Reply 70):
Um...yes? Hence, 787s. Unless you are going to be a daring iconoclast and suggest the 330s will be replaced with more 330s. Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.
Quoting gigneil (Reply 71):
But way less so than it was supposed to be. Not to mention, when will you get one?

This was basically one of my points (sorry, I had to come up with arguments) and who knows what the market will be in 2020? Maybe the Airbus develop an A330 NEO/RE/er whatever.... or maybe Embraer or Bombardier come up with a revolutional 250 seater.
 
delimit
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:12 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 71):

But way less so than it was supposed to be. Not to mention, when will you get one?

In the initial iteration, sure. By the end of the decade when Delta starts its wide body replacement, probably at or above specs.

As for when you'll get 'em, DL doesn't want any wide bodies anytime soon so it's a bit of a moot point.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:15 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 71):
But way less so than it was supposed to be. Not to mention, when will you get one?

Isn't that comment valid only for the first few frames produced? It was overweight, an issue that was addresses from what I heard. From frames 6 on are to spec. It was something to do with the side-of-body mod they had to do. The engines (package 2) acctually exceed fuel burn expectations by 0.5% (which means nothing in the grand scheme of things.). I am not all that familiar with it, but please correct me if I am wrong, I very well could be.

I am sure that someone would have been willing to pay a pretty penny for DL's slots if DL's was going to sell them instead of moving them down the line. Personally, I cannot wait for them to take delivery of the 787.

[Edited 2011-08-30 12:16:26]
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
delimit
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:23 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 72):
This was basically one of my points (sorry, I had to come up with arguments) and who knows what the market will be in 2020? Maybe the Airbus develop an A330 NEO/RE/er whatever.... or maybe Embraer or Bombardier come up with a revolutional 250 seater.

Or we could all grow wings! Come on now.

Given everything we know today, without exciting (and fairly unlikely) changes in the next 4 or 5 years, my prediction makes sense.

And of course there's the fact that Delta have them on order.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 74):
Isn't that comment valid only for the first few frames produced?

Not really. The 330 has been much improved since the 787 was announced. Even at spec the 787 has much less of a lead than it once was projected to. The 330 is a fantastic plane.

That said, the 787 should still easily match or best it.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting Delimit (Reply 75):
Not really. The 330 has been much improved since the 787 was announced. Even at spec the 787 has much less of a lead than it once was projected to. The 330 is a fantastic plane.

Agreed, the A330 is a fantastic plane, I love it, but realistically speaking, it is nowhere near the 787 (today's specs for both). Could you please enlighten me with what data and logic are you making your claim? I compare the A330 to be about the same as a 767 with winglets, of course depending on the mission it serves.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:44 pm

An A330-200 hoists, what, 20 tons more payload across over 1000nm further than an 767?

NS
 
delimit
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:51 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 76):
Agreed, the A330 is a fantastic plane, I love it, but realistically speaking, it is nowhere near the 787 (today's specs for both). Could you please enlighten me with what data and logic are you making your claim? I compare the A330 to be about the same as a 767 with winglets, of course depending on the mission it serves.

The comparison has been done here over and over. It's basically commonly accepted wisdom by those not biased towards one or the other manufacturer. Rather than rehash it, I'll just drop the claim if you find it that inflammatory.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting Delimit (Reply 78):
I'll just drop the claim if you find it that inflammatory.

I don't find it inflammatory but I would like to see the facts behind it. As I said, I love the A330, it is one of my all time favourites.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
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Stitch
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:57 pm

Quoting Delimit (Reply 70):
Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.
Quoting gigneil (Reply 71):
But way less so than it was supposed to be.

Now that Boeing has hard data I'm hearing mumblings that the 787-8's numbers came in over 10% better than the A330-200. And that's with the "fat frames".
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:04 pm

I hadn't really heard an update in quite some time, especially not since they had starting gathering performance data during the later stage of flight testing.

I'm actually interested in what they were able to come up with...

NS
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:05 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 80):
Now that Boeing has hard data I'm hearing mumblings that the 787-8's numbers came in over 10% better than the A330-200. And that's with the "fat frames".

Are the mumblers that you are tuned into making any noises about when the ACAP 's will be updated?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:11 pm

Quoting SUNRISEVALLEY (Reply 82):
Are the mumblers that you are tuned into making any noises about when the ACAP 's will be updated?

Not yet, but I would think we should have them soon enough now that we're within weeks of the start of customer deliveries. I see the 747-8 ACAP was updated in June to include preliminary Payload-Range figures.
 
delimit
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 79):
I don't find it inflammatory but I would like to see the facts behind it. As I said, I love the A330, it is one of my all time favourites.

Dont want to derail the thread further. A quick google gave me this for your reading pleasure, and there's much more on offer.
787-9 Vs. A330-300 (by ea772lr Feb 23 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Stitch (Reply 80):
Now that Boeing has hard data I'm hearing mumblings that the 787-8's numbers came in over 10% better than the A330-200. And that's with the "fat frames".

Oh nice. I assume that's versus the latest A330? Good to see the 787 delivering on promises.  
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 pm

Quoting Delimit (Reply 84):
Oh nice. I assume that's versus the latest A330? Good to see the 787 delivering on promises.

What major updates to the A330 improved its efficiency by 15+ percent? I haven't heard of any such developments in the past 6 years. I am sure those would have been very note worthy...
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
n7371f
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:21 pm

Any of the regular Delta and TechOps posters heard anything about layout for the 73X? I know it's early and Delta has plenty of time to finalize the configuration...Continental does F20Y153 with a mid-cabin lav. That will be changing to F20Y144 I believe with the EconomyPlus configuration.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:53 pm

Quoting col (Reply 7):
I just wish we could all be as respectful as the CEO of Delta, to each manufacturer.
Quoting Delimit (Reply 70):
Um...yes? Hence, 787s. Unless you are going to be a daring iconoclast and suggest the 330s will be replaced with more 330s. Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.

From what I hear, even the first iterations of the B787's are going to just have killer economics against its competitors. The more "optimized" ones in the next few years will simply not be comparable. That is what I also think of the A350XWB as well (hence why Boeing needs to "get on the ball").

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 72):
Maybe the Airbus develop an A330 NEO/RE/er whatever


Not going to happen. It will cost no less than $4-$6 billion to do it. Airbus has enough projects on hits hands.
"Up the Irons!"
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:14 pm

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...id-delta-get-a-51-discount-on.html

damn, that is quite a discount. So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....
 
PlaneAdmirer
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:37 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....

Price isn't a part of merit? Since when? It's the total value proposition and if Boeing can make money at the price they negotiated, good for Boeing and Delta. This particularly true as Boeing closes out production of the 737NG in favor the 737 MAX, and Boeing will have a good case for commonality going forward.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:54 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
damn, that is quite a discount. So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....

I somehow doubt that most planes are sold on merit alone. And I'm not sure that a 51% discount is unprecedented - or even unexpected - at this point.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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mayor
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:03 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 90):
I somehow doubt that most planes are sold on merit alone

That's what I was referring to earlier in the Airbus/Eastern deal with the A300s. This is the only Airbus deal that I'm familiar with, but I'm sure there are more. All the manufacturers are probably guilty of this, if you can consider it something to be guilty of.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
mffoda
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:17 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
damn, that is quite a discount. So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....

You mean like this example....

http://airinsight.com/2011/05/09/a-glimpse-inside-engine-oem-pricing/

Quote:

A glimpse inside engine OEM pricing

In the lawsuit by Rolls-Royce against Pratt & Whitney for alleged patent infringement over the fan blade design of the PW-GE GP7200 vs the RR Trent 900 (both engines on the Airbus A380), we get a rare glimpse into the engine pricing.

Here’s one article that gives detail. RR says it had to discount its Trent 900 more than 87% compared with a normal discount of 77%.

Consider the persistent rhubarb over Airbus vs. Boeing discounts, which are routinely 25%-33% and sometimes rumored to be 50% or more, the revelation about the current state of engine discounts is remarkable…but not unprecedented.

We remember one Delta Air Lines deal in the 1990s in which the engine was given, as in free, to Delta with the follow-on maintenance and spare parts contracts being where the forthcoming profits were expected.

It was generally thought that in recent years, deals such as Delta’s weren’t necessary, but as we can see from this lawsuit, deep, deep discounts continue.


It appears everyone is in the Discount business... No? Or is it just Boeing's Merit-less products?   
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:59 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 90):
I somehow doubt that most planes are sold on merit alone. And I'm not sure that a 51% discount is unprecedented - or even unexpected - at this point.

Though I'm quite sure before the introduction of A320neo or the 737MAX, neither A nor B had to discount their narrowbodies so much (OK, maybe the infamous FR order...). I believe Boeing needs to keep their 737 production line running til the MAX enters service. Since that will be later than the A320neo, B needs to sell more of the current-gen narrowbodies than A. Pricing is one way to influence sales.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
damn, that is quite a discount. So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....

Actually 50% discounting is the norm now for narrowbodies and widebodies. I'm hearing AA paid even less than DL for their A320s. *shrug*
 
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scbriml
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:00 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
damn, that is quite a discount.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 90):
I somehow doubt that most planes are sold on merit alone. And I'm not sure that a 51% discount is unprecedented - or even unexpected - at this point.

That level of discount is not unusual for a large order from a major client.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 94):
I'm hearing AA paid even less than DL for their A320s. *shrug*

Only just and for a significantly larger order.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 92):
Here’s one article that gives detail. RR says it had to discount its Trent 900 more than 87% compared with a normal discount of 77%.

Consider the persistent rhubarb over Airbus vs. Boeing discounts, which are routinely 25%-33% and sometimes rumored to be 50% or more, the revelation about the current state of engine discounts is remarkable…but not unprecedented.

discounts on engines larger 70% are totally normal, because the manufacturers make they money on MRO. More or less like printer companies giving printers away dirt cheap and making the profit on the ink cartridges, but

Quoting Stitch (Reply 94):
Actually 50% discounting is the norm now for narrowbodies and widebodies. I'm hearing AA paid even less than DL for their A320s. *shrug*

50% discount is definitely NOT the norm, believe me!
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:44 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 96):
50% discount is definitely NOT the norm, believe me!

Well, we have:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 95):
That level of discount is not unusual for a large order from a major client.

...and:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 94):
I'm hearing AA paid even less than DL for their A320s. *shrug*
Quoting scbriml (Reply 95):
Only just and for a significantly larger order.

These deals may not represent the "norm", but they certainly represent the "current". They also show that neither the 737NG nor the A320OEO are selling on merit alone. lol

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
DLMD90
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:23 am

RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:46 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):

All that said, I expect the first large batch of planes in this order to be 1-for-1 replacements for 757s.

I agree, and I hope so, lately, I keep getting those OLD PMNW 757's out of BOS, I'm really tired of them!

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 31):
Nice wet dream Stich, but with 18 firm 787's on order, more 777 and all Airbus options differed indefinitely, I highly doubt it. Taking delivery of these 100 737-900ER's and their current 737's, and replacing the old A320's with 737-900's I presume Boeing is their manufacturer of choice once more.

When did DL decide they were committing to the 787 order? I thought it was kind of in limbo?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:52 pm

Quoting DLMD90 (Reply 98):
When did DL decide they were committing to the 787 order? I thought it was kind of in limbo?

You can't get more in limbo than that order, that's for sure. I don't think we can draw too many conclusions from Delta in this order. It was one RFP, for a specific fleet replacement period, and there will be plenty more. I have no doubt that we "might" see the NEO in their fleet, and possibly both the NEO and the MAX. However, the -900ER order sort of reduces the number of A321NEO's that they might need, and that would seem to be the most compelling of the three products. The next size down - A320NEO vs 737-8MAX - sees a more competitive Boeing offering from what I read here. Therefore, a 737-900ER/A321NEO/737-8MAX/A319NEO mix might not be out of the question.

.....but then again, what is?  

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.

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