This is off topic but I am wondering if for labor relations on the NB fleets it makes more sense for DL, UA, US, WN to use the same type. With a sub fleet, an airline could be vulnerable to a work stop-age or sick-out or other event that would disproportionately affect a certain type and create more problems. By using one type, the airline would have more flexibility in terms of keeping the planes in the air by reassigning pilots.
AA - They need planes in such a hurry, they had no choice but to go with both A&B despite their union issues.
I am not suggesting this to inflame, but wondering if any of the carriers are thinking this way.
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
-
- PlanesNTrains
- Posts: 9524
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 100): This is off topic but I am wondering if for labor relations on the NB fleets it makes more sense for DL, UA, US, WN to use the same type. With a sub fleet, an airline could be vulnerable to a work stop-age or sick-out or other event that would disproportionately affect a certain type and create more problems. By using one type, the airline would have more flexibility in terms of keeping the planes in the air by reassigning pilots |
I think there's a variety of factors to support or contradict that thought, depending on the circumstance. Some would say that the greater financial benefit comes form playing two manufacturers off of one another. Soem might say that having two different products would shield them from a problem (however unlikely) with the airworthiness of one (i.e. grounding). I suppose you could make a case for and against any of these, but certainly yours isn't any more or less worthy.
Having said that, I can't imagine (as an outsider) any type of labor issue that would affect one narrowbody but not another.
-Dave
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting InsideMan (Reply 96): 50% discount is definitely NOT the norm, believe me! |
No, I don't believe it is - 30-40% is more usual for most orders. However, we have recently seen a significant number of large, tactical orders and the manufacturers know which customers are worth more to them.
50% discount doesn't seem unreasonable if a major customer has just ordered 230 of your planes and taken 365 options.
The news that Boeing has discounted to similar levels for one of it's major domestic customers will hopefully put a stop to the oft-repeated claims that only Airbus "gives its planes away".
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting scbriml (Reply 105): No, I don't believe it is - 30-40% is more usual for most orders. However, we have recently seen a significant number of large, tactical orders and the manufacturers know which customers are worth more to them. |
You are incorrect. I'm not aware of any customers who currently get discounts smaller than 40%.
Discounts have certainly grown over the years. I think its because the OEMs increase list prices faster than their costs actually grow. It doesn't make sense, but that's how it is.
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
actually scbriml is very correct.
Besides I never said it doesn't happen, but it is not the norm. Definitely not.
The reason I posted the original link is that when news of the order from DL got out some peple said
"Boeing must have given them a heck of a price" and lots of others denied reality and said
"The 737-900ER is good enough to hold its own against the A321 without giving it away dirt cheap"
Well, point was proven wrong, that's all.....
Besides I never said it doesn't happen, but it is not the norm. Definitely not.
The reason I posted the original link is that when news of the order from DL got out some peple said
"Boeing must have given them a heck of a price" and lots of others denied reality and said
"The 737-900ER is good enough to hold its own against the A321 without giving it away dirt cheap"
Well, point was proven wrong, that's all.....
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting InsideMan (Reply 106): The reason I posted the original link is that when news of the order from DL got out some peple said"Boeing must have given them a heck of a price" and lots of others denied reality and said"The 737-900ER is good enough to hold its own against the A321 without giving it away dirt cheap"Well, point was proven wrong, that's all..... |
And the fact that DL and AA needed a/c before the NEO or the MAX EIS made no never mind in setting the price.
Ok
-
- jacobin777
- Posts: 12262
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting scbriml (Reply 104): The news that Boeing has discounted to similar levels for one of it's major domestic customers will hopefully put a stop to the oft-repeated claims that only Airbus "gives its planes away". |
Took a look at resale value and residual value of the competing planes and operating margins (for the manufacturers)....that gives a better idea....
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108): Took a look at resale value and residual value of the competing planes |
I guess you're referring to the thread recently created by LAXintl. How does any of that data support your supposition?
| Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108): and operating margins (for the manufacturers) |
I've read the financial reports of EADS and Boeing. Nothing to suggest airbus is offering larger discounts.
Maybe I'm missing something?
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting flyingAY (Reply 110): Where do you people get the discount percentages? Can you for example tell me, how much AY received discount for their A321sharklet order? |
It's highly proprietary, but rumors and facts circulate throughout the industry. Most lessors and financiers have a pretty good idea of where net prices are.
Personally, I would never comment on A.net about a specific airline's net price as that would be unethical.
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Well if we take the discounts being touted and look at the reverse we are talking about highway robbery, if 50% is the norm as claimed by some, then obviously the list price is geared to hooking some nutcase who know no better, if greater than 50% the situation is even worse, both cases would mean that the PR folks who are always blowing smoke also control list prices which would explain why they are so out of whack.
-
- Worldliner
- Posts: 62
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Heard Delta cancelled 126 737-800 options and swapped for 30 737-900ER's.
Any reckoning that Delta ordered the MAX also?
Any reckoning that Delta ordered the MAX also?
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting par13del (Reply 115): if 50% is the norm as claimed by some, then obviously the list price is geared to hooking some nutcase who know no better, if greater than 50% the situation is even worse, both cases would mean that the PR folks who are always blowing smoke also control list prices which would explain why they are so out of whack. |
It's not that they are geared to "hooking some nutcase," it's that no one has any incentive to get them lower. Instead, everyone's incentives are to keep them high.
The manufacturer likes them high because they can offer bigger discounts and still get more revenue, and because deals will be reported as bigger in the media.
The buyer likes them high because then the sharply discounted transaction price makes management look like amazing negotiators..
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting worldliner (Reply 116): Heard Delta cancelled 126 737-800 options and swapped for 30 737-900ER's. |
Air Transport News and FlightGlobal's forum is reporting this, as well.
The deal was DL would cancel 60 options and 66 rolling options for the 737-800 and place an order for 100 737-900ERs and options for 30 more.
[Edited 2011-09-02 10:53:25]
-
- jacobin777
- Posts: 12262
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 111): Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108): Took a look at resale value and residual value of the competing planes I guess you're referring to the thread recently created by LAXintl. How does any of that data support your supposition? |
No not really. I was more or less looking at other research firms which provide data on airplane values.
| Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 111): Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108): and operating margins (for the manufacturers) I've read the financial reports of EADS and Boeing. Nothing to suggest airbus is offering larger discounts. |
Again, some of this data is provided form research firms, etc. in the aerospace industry. It would be a bit difficult from only reading both Boeing's and EADS financial reports - though I'm curious why EADS has such a low profit margin.
?RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108): Took a look at resale value and residual value of the competing planes and operating margins (for the manufacturers)....that gives a better idea.... |
Not sure what you'll glean from the manufacturers operating margins to be honest.
| Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 119): though I'm curious why EADS has such a low profit margin. ? |
Three things..
Currency hedging costs
Lots of exceptionals in the last 5 years or so, especially relating to the A380, old A350, and A400M
A higher percentage of turnover allocated to R+D than Boeing typically shows.
It's easy to show that in the last decade, the A320 and A330 between them have returned some E35Bn of profit back to Airbus, most of which has been swallowed up by new programmes and their overruns, but about E7Bn of which has been retained by the business.
Just through sheer numbers, the bulk of that must have come from the A320
Which, if anything, shows that Airbus make sh*tloads of money on the A320's they sell
Rgds
-
- PlanesNTrains
- Posts: 9524
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting Stitch (Reply 118): The deal was DL would cancel 60 options and 66 rolling options for the 737-800 and place an order for 100 737-900ERs and options for 30 more. |
While I don't know all the in's and out's of the deal, it certainly makes sense in the end. They aren't going to need hundreds of NG options.
-Dave
-
- PlanesNTrains
- Posts: 9524
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
30-40 as already posted by scrimbl.
But as I wrote in another thread somewhere, the difference in price can be up to 100%, as some do get 50% discount and some no discount at all.
Depends on SOOOOOO many factors....
But as I wrote in another thread somewhere, the difference in price can be up to 100%, as some do get 50% discount and some no discount at all.
Depends on SOOOOOO many factors....
-
- JerseyFlyer
- Posts: 2628
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
It looks as though DL's 100 x 739 order in fact represents an exercise of existing options on 738s, which would explain how they secured early slots:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...icative-of-urgent-fleet-needs.html
"Delta, which first announced the order on 25 August, said separately in a regulatory filing on 30 August that it is cancelling 126 existing options for 737-800s in exchange for an additional 30 options for the -900ER, on top of the 100 firm orders".
Net net, this all amounts to an increase of 4 options (100 + 30 - 126 = 4)!
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...icative-of-urgent-fleet-needs.html
"Delta, which first announced the order on 25 August, said separately in a regulatory filing on 30 August that it is cancelling 126 existing options for 737-800s in exchange for an additional 30 options for the -900ER, on top of the 100 firm orders".
Net net, this all amounts to an increase of 4 options (100 + 30 - 126 = 4)!
-
- USAF336TFS
- Posts: 1362
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting Stitch (Reply 117): Heard Delta cancelled 126 737-800 options and swapped for 30 737-900ER's. Air Transport News and FlightGlobal's forum is reporting this, as well. The deal was DL would cancel 60 options and 66 rolling options for the 737-800 and place an order for 100 737-900ERs and options for 30 more. [Edited 2011-09-02 10:53:25] |
I see no confirmation of this in the latest "Orders and Deliveries" section of Boeing's website.
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 125): I see no confirmation of this in the latest "Orders and Deliveries" section of Boeing's website. |
The 100 737 orders are posted on the main page - http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm
-
- USAF336TFS
- Posts: 1362
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting Stitch (Reply 126): The 100 737 orders are posted on the main page - http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...x.cfm |
Yes I saw that Stitch, but I do not see the corresponding cancellations.
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Options are not included on the Orders and Deliveries page unless converted to a firm order. Options are "cancelled" all the time when not exercised.
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Looks like there will no additional order for anytime soon...
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...n-aircraft-order-anytime-soon.html
Quote:
"A major driver behind Delta's decision to cap aircraft orders at the 100 Boeing narrowbodies is keeping its capital expenditures in a $1.2-$1.4 billion band on an annual basis, explained Bastian."
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...n-aircraft-order-anytime-soon.html
Quote:
"A major driver behind Delta's decision to cap aircraft orders at the 100 Boeing narrowbodies is keeping its capital expenditures in a $1.2-$1.4 billion band on an annual basis, explained Bastian."
-
- iceberg210
- Posts: 368
- Joined:
RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
| Quoting seabosdca (Reply 116): It's not that they are geared to "hooking some nutcase," it's that no one has any incentive to get them lower. Instead, everyone's incentives are to keep them high. The manufacturer likes them high because they can offer bigger discounts and still get more revenue, and because deals will be reported as bigger in the media. The buyer likes them high because then the sharply discounted transaction price makes management look like amazing negotiators.. |
Exactly
The industry I'm in for example (commercial roofing) is one where all the manufactures post their 'price' lists openly, but no roofer actually pays those list prices. Part of it is if you're price lists aren't 'near' what your bottom line prices are it's harder for the competitor to know where you're at. Secondly it makes it so your customer can feel good that he's getting 10,20,25,42 whatever percentage 'off list'. Finally it's handy because if an architect or someone wonders what these things 'really' cost they can see the price list, and when the roofer charges them 'list cost' they feel like "hey no markup was made on me" when really the roofer is making extra money. Much of the construction industry works EXACTLY like that.
I'm sure for the same reasons (granted larger stakes) the aircraft companies do a similar thing. I also bet if you saw a 'parts' price list it'd be the same way where people don't pay list.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: 717atOGG, AAPilot48Heavy, Acey559, AIR MALTA, airportdash, andrewying, atpg5, ausinTex, aviationjoshk, B717fan, BC1226, bennett123, bnaorthoavgeek, BobLoblah, boxer7, capejet, CargoMerijn, cyked3, D L X, dagKentWA, diatraveler, dmstorm22, Favre4, FGITD, Finnaviation, flyinryan99, flymco753, freakyrat, geardown, GlobalAirways, Google [Bot], gregn21, Heavierthanair, jashah, Jos227, KMCOFlyer, LAXdude1023, Legiath, Lennundus, LH779, LOT767301ER, Luxair747SP, LuxuryTravelled, maps4ltd, mayank28, mikejepp, mrkerr7474, NameOmitted, ncflyer, NoahV37, Reamer, RJNUT, SANMAN66, seabosdca, Silverstreak, sirloin, sunking737, TexasAirCorp, Tkairlines, trexel94, ty97, TYSflyer, USPIT10L, werba and 354 guests