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Oykie
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FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:53 pm

Sadly it seems that by 2024 WN will no longer operate the 717.  The beautiful DC-9 airplane. One could as a Douglas fan hope that DL will take these planes    Realistically not sure if that will happen with the way WN talks about the 717.

Quote:
Southwest CEO Gary Kelly declared to attendees today at the International Aviation Forecast Summit hosted by the Boyd Group that the 717 does not "bring any unique benefit that Southwest cannot get with the 737".
Quote:
Kelly stated the 717 is roughly the same size and offers close to same economics as the 737-500s the carrier operates. However, he did highlight higher maintenance costs on the Rolls-Royce engines powering the 717s.
Quote:
Kelly said in the long term he does not see the 717 playing a strategic role in Southwest's fleet.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...uthwest-continues-to-diminish.html
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:57 pm

I don't see them lasting in the WN fleet to 2024 ... I'll be they are gone in 5 years or less ...
 
BMI727
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:58 pm

Not really much of a surprise in my opinion.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:58 pm

As much as I like the 717......this is the best business decision for WN. They have always been about simplification and they have a strategy to re-simplify their business after what is sure to be a complex and complicated merger.

I too wish to see the 717 fleet with DL but we will see.
American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
 
kaitak
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:59 pm

Hardly a huge surprise; let's not forget that these aircraft will be over 20 years old by then and who knows what will have replaced them (and the 737) by then. In fact, 2024 is a lot longer than I would have expected them to last.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:59 pm

Well, it is a dead-end aircraft. I think they'll keep them for the rest of their useful lives unless they can find a unique deal for them. They wont be disappearing quickly tho...too many.
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WNCrew
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):

Well, it is a dead-end aircraft. I think they'll keep them for the rest of their useful lives unless they can find a unique deal for them. They wont be disappearing quickly tho...too many.

I'm just excited to have something DIFFERENT! As it is now I get excited when I work a -500 just because it's not the same thing all the time.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:13 pm

Exerpt from the OP's link:

He stated some of the lease expirations on the 717s begin in 2017 and continue through 2024. Southwest is in discussions with Boeing regarding the 717 leases, Kelly explained.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 1):
I don't see them lasting in the WN fleet to 2024 ... I'll be they are gone in 5 years or less ...

The discussions w/Boeing could very well be regarding letting go of or breaking the leases.


Quoting Nutsaboutplanes (Reply 3):
I too wish to see the 717 fleet with DL but we will see.

Time will tell.
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delimit
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:31 pm

Quoting Nutsaboutplanes (Reply 3):
I too wish to see the 717 fleet with DL but we will see.

I seriously doubt DL will be picking these up.
 
jreuschl
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:36 pm

I thought WN had to keep some of them because of limited space at some ATL gates? 737s would not fit?
 
ScottB
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:45 pm

Quoting oykie (Thread starter):
Sadly it seems that by 2024 WN will no longer operate the 717.

With even the newest 717's hitting 18 years of age in 2024, that's not really unexpected, especially as the 717 is an orphan type. At least the 737-500's have commonality with the rest of the 737 fleet at Southwest. I think there will still be some markets where the 717 will make sense for WN, and getting concessions on the leases will almost certainly help.
 
BMI727
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:52 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 6):
I'm just excited to have something DIFFERENT! As it is now I get excited when I work a -500 just because it's not the same thing all the time.

That probably puts you in the minority.

Anyway, this decision probably spells the end for more smaller AirTran cities.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
RamblinMan
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:53 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 9):
I thought WN had to keep some of them because of limited space at some ATL gates? 737s would not fit?

Easily rearranged.

This is not surprising. I only hope I snag a few rides on them before they go.

If WN ends up needing a type smaller than the 737s, the C-series is far better.
 
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ADent
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:53 pm

If WN is going to buy a bunch of 737-7 or -8 then they can make Boeing eat the 717 leases as part of the deal.

Conversely Boeing could offer a discount on planes to get WN to hold on to the 717s until later.
 
93Sierra
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:05 pm

What's wrong with the rolls engines?
 
Flaps
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:20 pm

From a passenger perspective a sad development. From a business perspective I suppose it was inevitable. I've always been a staunch MDD fan and to this day whenever I have such an option I actively seek out MD80/90, DC9 and 717 aircraft. It's disappointing to me that FL is dissolving into WN in the first place, this is just one more reason in my book not to choose WN. From a business perspective I understand thier decision. Probably would make the same one myself if I were in those shoes. For now at least as I customer I can still vote with my feet . I will continue casting my 4/5 segment per week votes with DL, AA and FL (until the merger).
 
WNCrew
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:37 pm

So interesting given that our employee website has this quote regarding the 717,

" We are excited about the possibilities of scheduling a slightly smaller gauge aircraft. We believe the 717 will allow us to better match seasonal demand without necessarily changing frequency in a market. In addition, the 717 will allow us to consider markets and cities that historically have been considered too small for Southwest service."

Sounds like they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ScottB
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 15):
I will continue casting my 4/5 segment per week votes with DL, AA and FL (until the merger).

Why AA? They're going to be dumping the MD-80 fleet over the same sort of time frame as WN. I suppose the MD-90's will be sticking around for longer at DL, but I doubt Delta will keep them past 2020. When FL ordered 73G's, that was pretty much the last nail in the coffin for the 717.
 
JayDub
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:45 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 16):
" We are excited about the possibilities of scheduling a slightly smaller gauge aircraft. We believe the 717 will allow us to better match seasonal demand without necessarily changing frequency in a market. In addition, the 717 will allow us to consider markets and cities that historically have been considered too small for Southwest service."

I think the key sentence in this quote is "We are excited about the possibilities of scheduling a slightly smaller gauge aircraft." This opens WN up to the possibility of taking on an aircraft like the C-Series down the line...
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:52 pm

First they were happy to get the 717. Now they see no future beyond 2024. My bet is you will see the time frame come down as buyers are lined up. 2024 today. 2015 tomorrow. Tick...Tick...
 
WNCrew
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:53 pm

Quoting JayDub (Reply 18):
Quoting WNCrew (Reply 16):
" We are excited about the possibilities of scheduling a slightly smaller gauge aircraft. We believe the 717 will allow us to better match seasonal demand without necessarily changing frequency in a market. In addition, the 717 will allow us to consider markets and cities that historically have been considered too small for Southwest service."

I think the key sentence in this quote is "We are excited about the possibilities of scheduling a slightly smaller gauge aircraft." This opens WN up to the possibility of taking on an aircraft like the C-Series down the line...

I guess what's odd to me is the line "... the 717 will allow us to consider markets and cities that historically have been considered too small for Southwest service."

Yet, Gary Kelly stated in this latest interview, "the 717 does not "bring any unique benefit that Southwest cannot get with the 737".
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ScottB
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:55 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 16):
So interesting given that our employee website has this quote regarding the 717,

...

Sounds like they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.

My guess is that there may be a few factors at play. One big drawback for the 717 and 737-500 is that employee productivity is necessarily 11% lower (122 vs. 137 seats) with the exact same outlay in terms of salaries. Direct operating costs are probably slightly lower, but likely not enough to make up for the revenue opportunity from the 15 extra seats.

The other piece of the puzzle may be the negotiations between SWAPA and FL/ALPA; this may be a signal that WN will reduce or park the FL 717 fleet if the FL pilots don't play ball.
 
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FLALEFTY
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:57 pm

WN pretty much has Boeing where they want them. Boeing needs WN to buy the LEAP-X 737s to make that program work. But the message Kelly is sending is that Boeing may be getting back a big fleet of ex-FL 717s off leases as part of the deal.

I wondered how WN was going to "wall off" the 717 pilot pay rates from the 737s and now apparently that is not going to happen.

It will be sad to see the 717 go from WN, but business is business.
 
Flaps
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:34 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 17):
Why AA? They're going to be dumping the MD-80 fleet over the same sort of time frame as WN

They'll start dumping as quickly as possible but it's going to take quite a while to attrition them all out. As long as there are MD's flying, MD's will always be my first choice to fly. Given the alternative when there is no MD available I'll take a regional jet option (even the CRJ) over any model of 737 or A320 series.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:47 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
That probably puts you in the minority.

Anyway, this decision probably spells the end for more smaller AirTran cities.

I wouldn't be surprised if Southwest gets a C series or an Embraer eventually for smaller cities.
 
Okie
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:02 am

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 22):
WN pretty much has Boeing where they want them. Boeing needs WN to buy the LEAP-X 737s to make that program work. But the message Kelly is sending is that Boeing may be getting back a big fleet of ex-FL 717s off leases as part of the deal.


Well 2017 is a long way down the road and 2024 even further. We just do not know exactly how and when the 737 replacement (797?) will be in the works much less 12 years from now if there will be a better replacement than the "C" Series. By then EMB could have a plastic fantastic 149 seater that operates for 20% better than anything in the works today. Heck maybe during 12 years AA could go Tango Uniform and WN would buy up AA. Just look at the Airline market 12 years ago and see where we are now a lot of airlines have come and gone along with a lot of aircraft that were profitable at that time are sitting in the desert. How many thought 2 years ago that WN would acquire FL?

Okie
 
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enilria
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:10 am

Quoting oykie (Thread starter):
Sadly it seems that by 2024 WN will no longer operate the 717.
Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 1):

I don't see them lasting in the WN fleet to 2024 ... I'll be they are gone in 5 years or less ...
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
ot really much of a surprise in my opinion.

I've been saying this since the deal was announced and gotten pilloried. I think you will see a number of them go next year as they use deliveries to ground them but keep ASMs neutral.

I also think they are gone in 5 years unless the economy takes off or fuel goes way down.
 
srbmod
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:10 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 14):
What's wrong with the rolls engines?

From the article in the thread starter:

Quote:
However, he did highlight higher maintenance costs on the Rolls-Royce engines powering the 717s.

I was working at FL when they first started getting the 717, and I remember hearing that those engines ran a few million a piece back in 1999. In the early months of 717 operations, they had to replace a few engines as well as having to cancel flights due to some engine issues. They were babying the 717s early on, but after several months, they gave the greenlight to the rampers at ATL to start doing powerbacks with them as there were so many in the fleet that they didn't have enough pushback units on the concourse (They also still had the 732s which required a pushback.). Those powerbacks definitely put some wear and tear on those engines, and those increased maintenance costs coupled with the rising fuel costs made buying more pushback units for ATL and ending powerbacks a necessary option.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 19):
First they were happy to get the 717. Now they see no future beyond 2024. My bet is you will see the time frame come down as buyers are lined up. 2024 today. 2015 tomorrow. Tick...Tick...

AirTran back in October of 2009 was already looking at options to replace them, possibly starting in 2014.

AirTran Studies 717 Replacement (by Olympic472 Oct 7 2009 in Civil Aviation)

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...tudies-717-fleet-replacements.html

I actually would not be surprised if WN starts retiring the oldest frames around that same time period. Had FL not been bought out by WN, they would have retired the 717s before 2024.

The thing about the 735 is that its' NG replacement is the slow selling 736, and it doesn't look like Boeing is going to offer anything in that size with the 737REs, so for that sort of capacity, WN is going to have to go outside of Boeing to fill that niche.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:19 am

RE: small cities. I'm not sure this makes a difference. Obviously if you stay in the smaller markets you give them the smaller planes, but if the aircraft cost the same to operate as the 73G retiring them shouldn't change whether or not you stay at or enter a smaller market.
 
usairways787
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:18 am

Our 717's are worn out. Sure it's only 10+ years old, but you can tell they have grown tired of heavy use. I don't see them lasting much longer after the take over. I know Southwest is telling the truth when they say it'll be to expensive in the long run. They constantly go tech here, some back to back, causing us to re situate passengers on other airlines. I can't speak from an economic perspective, it is quick to turn, but I think WN is making a good choice in not keeping it. It will be hard to phase them out as it will be a long process, with 88 active, but in the long run it'll be worth it.

US787
 
rj777
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:26 am

So what is WN going to do in the meantime, keep them in the FL paint until they're all retired?
 
BMI727
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:29 am

Quoting rj777 (Reply 30):
So what is WN going to do in the meantime, keep them in the FL paint until they're all retired?

That likely depends on the timeframe in which the 717s would be retired which was not specified. However, with 88 of the 717s in service, it is going to be some time before they can be replaced so my uneducated guess would be that it is quite likely at least some AirTran 717s will see Southwest paint or at least some sort of interim livery.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:58 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 16):
Sounds like they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Yea, I think they are just posturing

-m

  
 
mli717fan
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:40 pm

Maybe the 717s would be something G4 would be interested in? They could probably bump up the capacity to ~125, they will be cheap and more efficient than the MD-80s. Granted they are smaller, but maybe they could use them on less traveled routes, or allow cities with 2x m80 weekly frequencies to bump up to 3x 717. While the engines are different, I would expect that they still have some parts commonality with the mad dogs.
 
simairlinenet
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:52 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 16):
" We are excited about the possibilities of scheduling a slightly smaller gauge aircraft. We believe the 717 will allow us to better match seasonal demand without necessarily changing frequency in a market. In addition, the 717 will allow us to consider markets and cities that historically have been considered too small for Southwest service."

Sounds like they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Wow, how quickly everyone turned. I was calling out Southwest's talk of keeping the 717s from the start--like Delta and the benefits of a varied fleet, it's just talk to placate investors.

Aside: I was at a luncheon talk by the AirTran maintenance VP last week, and he severely downplayed the 717's future, also talking about when the lease dates end. But it sounded like they'd be open to some sort of deal to place them elsewhere before then, which the article confirmed.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:29 pm

Quoting MLI717fan (Reply 33):
Maybe the 717s would be something G4 would be interested in? They could probably bump up the capacity to ~125, they will be cheap and more efficient than the MD-80s. Granted they are smaller, but maybe they could use them on less traveled routes, or allow cities with 2x m80 weekly frequencies to bump up to 3x 717. While the engines are different, I would expect that they still have some parts commonality with the mad dogs.

Not enough seats. They're trying to put more seats in the md 80's so the 717 won't get it done for them. G4 doesnt care about frequency..at all. They thrive on ancillary revenue, the more people they can get on the plane the more revenue potential.
 
RamblinMan
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 29):
Our 717's are worn out. Sure it's only 10+ years old, but you can tell they have grown tired of heavy use. I don't see them lasting much longer after the take over.

If that is true, then I'm sorry, but these are crappy aircraft to begin with, and WN would do well to be rid of them sooner rather than later.

Quoting JayDub (Reply 18):
"We are excited about the possibilities of scheduling a slightly smaller gauge aircraft." This opens WN up to the possibility of taking on an aircraft like the C-Series down the line...

Exactly. Inheriting some 717s will allow them to experiment with serving some smaller markets and thinner routes, and if it is warranted, they'll keep doing it with C-series or E190s.
 
Thrust
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:54 pm

It's really shocking that the 717 hasn't enjoyed the type of success in the market that it's cousin, the DC-9 did. All the 717 really is is a re-engined, modernized DC-9.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:56 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 36):
If that is true, then I'm sorry, but these are crappy aircraft to begin with, and WN would do well to be rid of them sooner rather than later.
Quoting usairways787 (Reply 29):

Our 717's are worn out. Sure it's only 10+ years old, but you can tell they have grown tired of heavy use

Can either of you explain to me what's so "crappy" about the 717? I've been on quite a few and outside of a few sub par seats here and there, I don't get that "crappy" feel. When I get on a Colgan flight, I feel like im on a crappy aircraft....not so much on the 717.
 
RamblinMan
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 38):
Can either of you explain to me what's so "crappy" about the 717?

Basing it off of the quoted line, and if you'll notice I prefaced it with "If that is true."

I haven't been on a 717 since the year 2000, in TW colors. Needless to say, it was shiny and new then. But if they really have become "worn out" after 10 years, then it's a crappy airplane. I'm no mechanic, perhaps when WN updates the interior it will be good as new.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 38):
When I get on a Colgan flight, I feel like im on a crappy aircraft.

You ain't kidding. Or *shudder* Mesa. One of the main reason I like to fly WN is that it's all mainline. On UA lots of routes see multiple regionals, and I have to be careful which flight I choose because I much prefer SkyWest or ExpressJet to some of the others. It's nice not to worry about that, which is why part of me hopes WN ultimately obtains a permanent fleet of 100-ish seaters and flies to the smaller markets.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 39):
You ain't kidding. Or *shudder* Mesa. One of the main reason I like to fly WN is that it's all mainline. On UA lots of routes see multiple regionals, and I have to be careful which flight I choose because I much prefer SkyWest or ExpressJet to some of the others. It's nice not to worry about that, which is why part of me hopes WN ultimately obtains a permanent fleet of 100-ish seaters and flies to the smaller markets.

Trust me, coming from CRW... I hope WN can get some economical 100ish seaters as well.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 39):
I haven't been on a 717 since the year 2000, in TW colors. Needless to say, it was shiny and new then. But if they really have become "worn out" after 10 years, then it's a crappy airplane. I'm no mechanic, perhaps when WN updates the interior it will be good as new.

I don't think that it's a mechanically crappy aircraft. I've heard just the opposite. I've been on good and bad FL interiors. I've seen worse interiors on older DL and US aircraft than any FL 717.
 
RamblinMan
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:02 pm

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 40):
I don't think that it's a mechanically crappy aircraft. I've heard just the opposite.

I hope so, I hope they work out better than expected and stay a while. Aren't they a bit easier on fuel than the 735s? If so, and if having 2 types doesn't prove burdensome, perhaps WN will retire those and keep the 717s.

I hope for your sake WN keeps CRW... the future of the MCO-only FL stations is uncertain at the moment.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 41):
I hope so, I hope they work out better than expected and stay a while. Aren't they a bit easier on fuel than the 735s? If so, and if having 2 types doesn't prove burdensome, perhaps WN will retire those and keep the 717s.

I'm not sure about the fuel thing. The BR715 could probably power an md-80 sized stretch of the 717 without any modification. That said, having that big of an engine could mean it's not as efficient of an aircraft as it needs to be. Even if the 735 burns a bit more fuel I'd say the commonality savings with the 733 outweigh those costs.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 41):
I hope for your sake WN keeps CRW... the future of the MCO-only FL stations is uncertain at the moment.

It's not just those...look at PHF.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:41 pm

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 42):
It's not just those...look at PHF.

PHF is an exceptional case because it's a "legacy airport"--an air carrier airport from the early days when medium-size markets might have more than one airport. In this case, it's because the Norfolk / Hampton Roads area is split on both sides of a big barrier (James River with few crossings) with multiple large jurisdictions. An LCC doesn't need two airports in the same medium-size market (unlike say the 12-million-person LA Basin which can support multiple WN stations). WN is no doubt going to consolidate PHF its existing station at nearby ORF.

Sounds like the 717 is having a good 20+ -year career with FL-and-successor. This announcement isn't really news, and indicates that Southwest isn't "getting rid of the 717's." They're serving out a fairly standard service life with the purchasing carrier, and will be replaced in due course.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:47 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 34):
Wow, how quickly everyone turned. I was calling out Southwest's talk of keeping the 717s from the start--like Delta and the benefits of a varied fleet, it's just talk to placate investors.

I think a few here were influenced by the fact that the DL/NW and CO/UA mergers didn't translate into mass retirements of Airbii narrowbodies and AA's latest order now includes narrowbodied Airbii. I guess they thought that what's good for DL and UA is good for WN.

In this case (WN/FL), it would seem that fleet commonality still prevails.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Quoting rj777 (Reply 30):
So what is WN going to do in the meantime, keep them in the FL paint until they're all retired?

That likely depends on the timeframe in which the 717s would be retired which was not specified. However, with 88 of the 717s in service, it is going to be some time before they can be replaced so my uneducated guess would be that it is quite likely at least some AirTran 717s will see Southwest paint or at least some sort of interim livery.

Maybe WN can revive the Transtar brand and have the 717s repainted in those colors.   
It worked during the Muse Air aquisition.

Likely, 717s in WN colors will make a short-term appearance... similar to the 727s WN flew back in the late 70s-mid 80s.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2616
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 43):
Sounds like the 717 is having a good 20+ -year career with FL-and-successor. This announcement isn't really news, and indicates that Southwest isn't "getting rid of the 717's." They're serving out a fairly standard service life with the purchasing carrier, and will be replaced in due course.

My thought's exactly. Some are taking Kelly's comments to mean that there are 717's in paint for another carrier as we speak. I took his comments to mean that they don't see any special or exceptional uses for them. He didn't say they were dogs and had to go tomorrow.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:30 pm

I think WN just moved to plan B of the integration once the FL MEC turned down the SLI 9.
If the Pilots would have approved the SLI 9 that would have given WN the freedom do move a lot of 717 thru out the WN system and add some extra 717 to the fleet retire old the 737-500 giving the 717 at least 5 to 10 yrs at WN.
But now that FL MEC plan to play hard ball and stall the integration WN moved to plan B.
I have heard talk that plan B once the SOC comes around March 2012 the FL 737s will get merged into WN over the next 14 mo. Also there are something like 60 or more 717 LEASES due to come up in the next 2 to 4 years. So now instead of integrating the 717 into WN fleet. The talk now is WN is looking at the open market to lease additional 737-700 and 800 this will speed up the retirement off the 737-500,300 and 717. I think you will also now see more small FL cities being cut the next Schedule release coming some time in SEP and NOV which will also see a few 717 parked next year. I think it would be awesome to have 717 in the WN fleet but due to the integration slow down between the pilots work group the fate of the 717 may come faster than anyone expects even me. enjoy wnfg 
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5504
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:48 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 43):
Sounds like the 717 is having a good 20+ -year career with FL-and-successor. This announcement isn't really news, and indicates that Southwest isn't "getting rid of the 717's." They're serving out a fairly standard service life with the purchasing carrier, and will be replaced in due course.

Agree. A lot of drama in this thread, but nothing really significant happening.
 
jayspilot
Posts: 251
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:32 pm

RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:55 pm

REASON THE 717 won't last: 3 words. its too small. The 717 is based off the size of the DC-9-30 and is a heavy jet frame without teh seating capacity to survive with high fuel prices. I know the engines are much more efficient then the old 9 but its not enough.. The MD-90 is a stretched version of the already stretched MD-80 so while its a generation behind the 717 on technolgoy it has the seating capacity to put enough revenue on to keep it flying profitably for years to come. in the 737-500, 717 market size the C-series and the E-190 as well as the comac and Russian options deliver the same lift capacity for lower operational costs.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
He stated some of the lease expirations on the 717s begin in 2017 and continue through 2024. Southwest is in discussions with Boeing regarding the 717 leases, Kelly explained.


Wells Fargo appears to be the owner of the majority of the Air Tran 717's so why would they be talking to Boeing?

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