FG: Kelly Sees No Longterm Future For B717 At WN

isitsafenow · Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:43 pm

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 1):
I'll be they are gone in 5 years or less ...

You're on. Im taking the bet.
1. WN cannot replace 89 airplanes in five years
2. Boeing can't built 89 new orders that fast because they have juuuuusssssst a few other planes in the line-up
for other customers.

Name your ante.....your on.
safe

n471wn · Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:52 pm

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 50):
You're on. Im taking the bet.
1. WN cannot replace 89 airplanes in five years
2. Boeing can't built 89 new orders that fast because they have juuuuusssssst a few other planes in the line-up
for other customers.

Name your ante.....your on.
safe

you are right on to offer to bet on this----WN is steadily growing while the legacy's continue to shrink---they need these a/c to continue to do that......I see the 717's as being around longer than 5 years

ScottB · Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:23 pm

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 50):
You're on. Im taking the bet.
1. WN cannot replace 89 airplanes in five years

Southwest can easily replace 88 717's over five years. They have 143 737's on firm order with Boeing through the end of 2016 (just over five years from now) and options for an additional 22 over that same period. They also have an agreement to lease an additional five new 737-800's starting next year. So, with commitments and options for 170 aircraft, along with access to the used and lease markets, Southwest most certainly could replace the entire 717 fleet, retire some of their oldest 737 Classics, and even grow capacity modestly by the end of 2016.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 49):
Wells Fargo appears to be the owner of the majority of the Air Tran 717's

Wells-Fargo is almost certainly the trustee for the aircraft, not the owner; the actual owner would be a trust paying out income derived from the leases to its shareholders.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 46):
I think WN just moved to plan B of the integration once the FL MEC turned down the SLI 9.

isitsafenow · Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 52):

Ok..but Sept 1st 2016, if there is one flying for WN or in the fleet, you lose.
safe

SeeTheWorld · Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:56 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 51):
you are right on to offer to bet on this----WN is steadily growing while the legacy's continue to shrink---they need these a/c to continue to do that......I see the 717's as being around longer than 5 years

Southwest is not growing (absent the merger)... and until the economy turns around, they are more likely to shrink a bit... read their latest second quarter earnings report and investor analysis... Honestly, though, I pulled five years out of my ass, so I'm not betting any money they will all be gone in five years, but if fuel stays where it is, most of them will be gone ... just my hunch ....

n471wn · Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:06 pm

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 54):
read their latest second quarter earnings report and investor analysis.

WN is very adept at saying to the analysts that: "we are not growing or will grow very slightly" and then when you look at the RPM's they report you see that they are growing----my guess is that it is a perfect ploy to keep the legacy carriers from responding until it is too late.......I have seen this pattern again and again and as of right now SWA's RPM's are well up year to date.....

LV · Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:34 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 21):
The other piece of the puzzle may be the negotiations between SWAPA and FL/ALPA; this may be a signal that WN will reduce or park the FL 717 fleet if the FL pilots don't play ball.

This article may be more of a warning shot to the pilots union than anything else. Maybe Gary is saying "we have other options if you don't play nice."

flyorski · Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:51 pm

Is it possible to fit these aircraft with a gravel kit? First Air among others could use something to replace the 737-200s and if its possible to fit gravel kits on these, could that be a possibility?

lightsaber · Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:31 am

Anyone else notice the dates 2017-2024 are *post* 737RE entry into service?

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 50):
You're on. Im taking the bet.
1. WN cannot replace 89 airplanes in five years
2. Boeing can't built 89 new orders that fast because they have juuuuusssssst a few other planes in the line-up
for other customers.

CS300 EIS 2015. It would be tough, but between 737s and if WN ordered the Bombardier, it could be done.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 1):
I don't see them lasting in the WN fleet to 2024 ... I'll be they are gone in 5 years or less ...

Make it 8 years and I fully agree. 5 years... Too quick. Even DL couldn't get 737s that fast to replace the 752s.

Quoting oykie (Thread starter):
However, he did highlight higher maintenance costs on the Rolls-Royce engines powering the 717s.

No doubt. Those engines were 'ok' for their day. They do not compete, maintenance wise, in the world the CFM-56-7 and CF34 have set.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
He stated some of the lease expirations on the 717s begin in 2017 and continue through 2024.

Interesting... I thought the leases expired earlier. Very interesting...

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 14):
What's wrong with the rolls engines?

Too short an interval between overhauls. Now realize we're talking *leased* aircraft post EIS of the 737RE. Why would anyone extend the lease of a so-so sub-fleet past the introduction of a far more fuel efficient sub-type of their favorite plane?

Quoting LV (Reply 56):
This article may be more of a warning shot to the pilots union than anything else. Maybe Gary is saying "we have other options if you don't play nice."

I think WN is being honest... but also warning. WN wants the hostile unions off property.

Lightsaber

dlramp4life · Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:34 am

Why not jump on the charter train to cities IFP or RNO from select airports that see or don't see SWA service......G4 uses Md-87s on the route and that can be compared to the 717

ScottB · Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:00 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 58):
Make it 8 years and I fully agree. 5 years... Too quick. Even DL couldn't get 737s that fast to replace the 752s.

Again, Southwest has firm orders and signed leases for 148 737-700's & -800's, along with 22 additional options through the end of 2016. The lease market for new and used NG 737's is also open to Southwest. So they could easily replace the 717 fleet within five years of SOC. Consider that Southwest has taken an average of 25 73G's every year since they took delivery of the very first one.

Delta doesn't need 739ER's that fast, but they do need to replace the oldest 757's and A320's. Some of Delta's 752's are barely ten years old (and some 753's are younger).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 58):
Those engines were 'ok' for their day. They do not compete, maintenance wise, in the world the CFM-56-7 and CF34 have set.

I suppose that happens when the CFM-56 is the best-selling commercial turbofan engine in history by an incredible margin. The bugs all get worked out eventually.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 53):
Ok..but Sept 1st 2016, if there is one flying for WN or in the fleet, you lose.

I'm not guaranteeing it will happen, but it could. I think that if WN can engineer some way out of the leases, it is more likely.

Quoting LV (Reply 56):
This article may be more of a warning shot to the pilots union than anything else. Maybe Gary is saying "we have other options if you don't play nice."

That's my opinion. The carrot was "737 pay rates for the 717 if you play nice." This is the stick.

lightsaber · Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:34 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 60):
Again, Southwest has firm orders and signed leases for 148 737-700's & -800's, along with 22 additional options through the end of 2016. The lease market for new and used NG 737's is also open to Southwest. So they could easily replace the 717 fleet within five years of SOC.

You have a good point there. Per the 10-Q (link below), they also have 22 more options + 5 more leased (in 2012)! (see That is a tremendous number of airframes. So I concede it could happen within 5 years.

I do suspect, as you note, that this is a 'carrot and stick' negotiating tactic. Considering how slow the negotiations are going, I'm not surprised.

Either way, I believe we can agree that the 717 won't be in WN's fleet to 2024. Does it really matter if it is 2016 or 2019? While there are details, I think we can agree that by 2020 WN will be 717 free.

While the details of the replacement will be interesting... It is a wait and see.

Some facts on WN and the 717:

10-Q from Southwest: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...380/000009238011000070/form10q.htm

Fixed rate B717 aircraft notes payable
As of June 30, 2011, eight B717 aircraft were pledged as collateral for the obligations related to enhanced equipment trust certificates (EETCs). Principal and interest payments on the EETCs are due semiannually through April 2017.

Unless there are other obligations, expect those to be the first 8 to go...

On May 2, 2011, Standard & Poors (S&P) downgraded the Company’s senior unsecured debt rating from “BBB” to “BBB-“ primarily based on AirTran’s existing debt and leases, as well as risks associated with integration. S&P also revised the Company’s outlook to stable, based on expectations of a relatively consistent financial profile over the next two years.

In other words, WN is looking to cut costs due to debt taken on acquiring FL. WN's model doesn't work well with a bond rating below BBB- (that is the lowest investment grade debt).

Considering the tone of that 10-Q and the 717, I suspect the type will be gone as quickly as WN is able to arrange the lease terminations at reasonable fees.

Lightsaber

frmrCapCadet · Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:55 am

This was somewhat of a surprise. Many of us expected WN to experiment and see how two types would do in the fleet. Not to be.

JoeCanuck · Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:37 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 61):
Considering the tone of that 10-Q and the 717, I suspect the type will be gone as quickly as WN is able to arrange the lease terminations at reasonable fees.

I was in the camp that thought Southwest could really make a go with the 717's...and if they worked out, then maybe going to something newer when the leases were up...say, the CSeries.

I always knew it was a longshot but this more or less puts another nail in that coffin. Now, it seems the 717's will go as soon as they either finds someone else to pick up the lease or the lease expires. At some point, it may even be more economical to eat some lease penalties to get the 717's out of the Southwest system.

First, last and always...it's the 737 for Southwest.

EA CO AS · Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:46 am

One good thing for WN - reducing or ultimately retiring the B717 fleet gives WN additional flexibility to manage their network ASMs flat or even downward if the economy dictates.

laca773 · Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:00 am

WN needs a 100 seat a/c now, not 2015 or later (if the C series runs into delays). How soon could Embraer start delivering E90s to WN? Since they are not going to keep the 717s, they do need an a/c to replace them unless they are going to start eliminating stations that are too small for 73Gs.

kcrwflyer · Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:10 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 65):
Since they are not going to keep the 717s, they do need an a/c to replace them unless they are going to start eliminating stations that are too small for 73Gs.

If there is no difference in operating cost, the 717 routes could all be flown by 737.

rj777 · Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:15 am

I just thought of something: the NFL paint jobs on the 717s. Will WN maybe put some variation of those on 737s? That would be bad if those were to disappear completely.

WNLUV · Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:30 am

Quoting rj777 (Reply 67):
I just thought of something: the NFL paint jobs on the 717s. Will WN maybe put some variation of those on 737s? That would be bad if those were to disappear completely.

I think the NFL paint jobs on AirTran's 717's are just UGLY. Also, the dolphin paint job on the Georgia Aquarium plane is laughable. If Southwest does an NFL paint job it will be for the NFL in general. Not specific teams. It would be on par with what Slam Dunk One looked like.

stratosphere · Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:51 am

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 29):
Our 717's are worn out. Sure it's only 10+ years old, but you can tell they have grown tired of heavy use. I don't see them lasting much longer after the take over.

What do you base that on? Graffiti in the bag bins? the 717 is a DC-9-30 with enhanced cockpit and engines and those of us who worked for decades on DC-9 will tell you they are workhorses. I have flown 717's on Airtran a lot and prefer them to the 737. But in SWA's case I can see why they are ditching them they have one fleet type and will attempt to keep it that way as it is cheaper with training MX parts etc..

usairways787 · Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:57 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 69):

I base it on the fact they are beat to hell. I work them, they aren't dependable, they are constantly breaking, constantly causing schedule problems. Don't get me wrong, from a passenger perspective it is an awesome ride, every time they go tech it's engines, or flight deck issues. It's just not as dependable as a DC9, the engines are a major problem for it. I cannot tell you how many times, I'd climb up under the number 2 to get into the aft bin, and I would be covered in oil. I have NEVER seen an airplane leak as much as the 717. It also has a tendency to leak fuel pretty bad, with the drain valve being where it is, it extremely easy for that fuel to ignite, and cause some serious issues. This is from my personal experience.

US787

WNCrew · Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 70):
I base it on the fact they are beat to hell.

Maintenance issues aside, I'll bet from a cabin perspective they're MUCH MUCH more pleasant than some of our -300's and even older -700's... talk about beat to hell.

isitsafenow · Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:07 pm

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 70):

Just an educational Q here.....Are you telling us that airTran is taking maintenance short cuts and the leaks are not
attended too?
safe

fadecfault · Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:13 pm

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 70):
I'd climb up under the number 2 to get into the aft bin, and I would be covered in oil. I have NEVER seen an airplane leak as much as the 717. It also has a tendency to leak fuel pretty bad, with the drain valve being where it is, it extremely easy for that fuel to ignite, and cause some serious issues.

The do have some oil leaks but most of it is from the engines not being serviced carefully. Excess oil goes right onto the lower cowling. They consume much much less oil than the 737ng and drip less oil too. It's just that the 37 engine is lower and you can't see the bottom.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 71):
Maintenance issues aside, I'll bet from a cabin perspective they're MUCH MUCH more pleasant than some of our -300's and even older -700's... talk about beat to hell.

I've never been on a luv a/c but the avio 717 interior has a "made in china" quality to it.

I won't miss the 717, it's a horrible a/c to work on just like the rest of the MD line up.

93Sierra · Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:18 pm

How old is the oldest 717 currently in use at FL?

Atlwest1 · Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting WNLUV (Reply 68):
I think the NFL paint jobs on AirTran's 717's are just UGLY. Also, the dolphin paint job on the Georgia Aquarium plane is laughable. If Southwest does an NFL paint job it will be for the NFL in general. Not specific teams. It would be on par with what Slam Dunk One looked like.

Really? Falcons one is probably one of the best looking airplanes in the sky beats anything WN has special livery wise. Colts one is a very very handsome looking plane same for brewers one. From the customer perspective they enjoy the special color planes and get excited if they happen to be going to there home town and the team plane takes them. The Georgia Aquarium plane is kinda nice in its own way. WN though isn't the official carrier of the NFL so I doubt they will have a dedicated NFL one plane. However FL went in heavy with sports marketing with local teams and so thus as its a visible way to market im sure they will continue the trend with the combined company.

fadecfault · Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:46 pm

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 72):
Just an educational Q here.....Are you telling us that airTran is taking maintenance short cuts and the leaks are not
attended too?
safe

Oil consumption is tracked, if it goes over a certain amount a notice will be sent out to have the engine inspected and repaired.
However, generally speaking certain leaks even fuel leaks are permitted by boeing and don't have to be addressed.

ScottB · Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 75):
However FL went in heavy with sports marketing with local teams and so thus as its a visible way to market im sure they will continue the trend with the combined company.

I'm not quite so sure about that, since they try to be a market leader in many different cities and there's some downside risk to a team sponsorship in a rival city. You can bet money that there will be a Georgia One, though -- perhaps it would even be one of the first FL 737's repainted.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 75):
Falcons one is probably one of the best looking airplanes in the sky beats anything WN has special livery wise.

No way. Lone Star One is the best-looking aircraft in the sky, hands-down, and I think they did an amazing job with Illinois One.

airtran737 · Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:47 pm

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 74):
How old is the oldest 717 currently in use at FL?

Ship 701 was delivered September 23 1999 IIRC

lightsaber · Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:24 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 63):
I was in the camp that thought Southwest could really make a go with the 717's...and if they worked out, then maybe going to something newer when the leases were up...say, the CSeries.

I was in that camp too. However, it looks like WN has looked into the costs and decided to stick with the 737.

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 70):
every time they go tech it's engines, or flight deck issues.

The 717 engines, from a maintenance cost perspective, do not have a great reputation. They're good in many other areas, but the engine maintenance costs, as noted in the OP link, have not been great. Partially that is due to the small fleet. A 'real fix' would cost to much to implement over so few engines.

That is one reason the 737NG continues to sell; improvements are amortized over thousands of airframes, so that they are both cheap and easy to justify.

That is what I mean by 'economy of scale.' The 737NG has it... the 717 doesn't.

Lightsaber

wnflyguy · Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:13 am

Talking to someone from WN cargo department today about FL integration and the 717.
He said that HDQ ran all the numbers and with the current volume of cargo WN ships on a daily adv age with the Weight Restrictions on 717 will be a overall loss if integrated into the current WN system. And because of these Weight Restriction on the 717 is why FL has no cargo service today.
After running all the numbers moving the 717 thru out the WN system will bring down long term cargo revenue forecast.
A quicker drawl down of the 717 is now planned with a 5 yrs time line and has nothing to do with the pilots or other work groups during the integration. Anyone have any info on the weight restrictions on the 717? thanks wnfg

QANTAS747-438 · Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:44 am

Didn't Kelly say that he liked the 717s when we first announced the FL aquisition? I found this article where at the very end, tells of what Kelly said back a year ago.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...t-appears-less-bullish-on-717.html

LoneStarMike · Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:35 am

One analyst (Bob McAdoo of Avondale Partners] has speculated that AirTran's 717's may wind up at Delta.

Will AirTran's Boeing 717s wind up competing against Southwest Airlines in Atlanta?

Quote:
In a note Tuesday, McAdoo spelled out his conclusions:

"We believe the B717s will eventually fly for Delta. Southwest wants to keep a single fleet type and, as indicated in this article, and will be pulling flights from smaller cities. Delta just ordered 100 larger B737-900 aircraft of its indicated 200 aircraft requirement.

"We believe the 86 B717s at AirTran, currently on lease from Boeing, will be traded in to Boeing for more Southwest B737's. Expect Boeing to then lease or sell the B717s to Delta, perhaps as a second, but yet unannounced, part of the recent B737 order from Delta to Boeing.

"This would be consistent with DAL's plan to limit capital expenditures while opportunistically upgrading the Delta fleet. It would also explain why DAL did not announce orders for smaller aircraft to satisfy part of its 200 aircraft total need.

"This decision by Southwest and our assumed moves by Delta would both seem be in the best interests of these two airlines."

LoneStarMike

lightsaber · Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:07 pm

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 82):
Expect Boeing to then lease or sell the B717s to Delta, perhaps as a second, but yet unannounced, part of the recent B737 order from Delta to Boeing.

Why would DL take an aircraft that WN found un-economical? It is the engine maintenance that is the killer. Ok, I could see a short (7 year) lease while DL waits for 737MAXs. Otherwise

The only point for the 717 and DL is negotiating leverage vs. Bombardier.

Lightsaber

bonusonus · Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:09 pm

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 80):
Weight Restriction on the 717 is why FL has no cargo service today.

How about on their 737s?

wnflyguy · Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:16 pm

Here is another rumor about the 717. Looks like the 717 may is being used as a form of trade with Delta for a gate SWAP in ATL. Sources say that WN first 4 gates will be at the D gates starting in Feb 2012 and now WN and Delta are in talks about trading All the FL C gates for all of Delta D gates. Along with this gate trade WN will trade 30 717 for 10 737-700 and 3 737-800 from Delta next year.Along with this WN will be adding a mix of 80 new and used 737-700 and 800 from a Boeing leasing company from June 2012 until Jan 2013. During this time frame 6 717 will be moved from the fleet at a time and replaced with New and used 737-700 and 800. Delta will add the 717 to replace the 29 DC 9 50 and the 13 737 in the swap plus add additional aircraft. When all is said and done WN will have off loaded all of the 717. Retired all the 737-500 and a few 737-300. The cost saving from not having redo any 717 into the WN fleet and the retirement off all the 737-500 and some older 300 will end up saving WN millions a year. And at ATL WN will end up with all the D gates with 30 gates total that will be able to handle a 737-800 The only down side is 1# no 717 in ever in the WN fleet. sound like a good plan to me..any thoughts on this new rumor? enjoy wnfg

wnflyguy · Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 84):

I asked that same question a was told due to the mix fleet it was not cost effective enough for the FL business model at this time pre WN merger. wnfg.

skyymarc · Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:09 pm

I find it utterly ironic that the some of the first jets FL predecessor J7 flew came from DL. Now the notion that former FL aircraft would go to DL, what a laugh! This industry never ceases to amaze me. The gate swap idea should be beneficial to both parties, if true. Give DL the rest of C gates so WN can consolidate on D. The only drawback with D gates is the concourse is much narrower than all the other concourses at ATL. WN does know how to operate efficiently in tight spaces. I was always impressed with how they could move people through the small concourses at DAL, the old HOU concourses, and even the old Terminal 1 at PHX. WN pax will greatly appreciate not having to potentially get on the train to connect to another flight. I can't wait to see a line of WN tails along the entire length of concourse D.

P.S. Years of humorous speculation that the 717's would somehow end up at NW to replace their DC9 workhorses when FL was done with them would be nearly true as well.

[Edited 2011-09-01 12:14:43]

cslusarc · Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 83):
Why would DL take an aircraft that WN found un-economical?

I see DL taking the 717 because it finds the CRJ-200 uneconomical when compared to the 717. If DL can purchase all of FL's 88 717s and the 20 ex-YX 717s it could have a decent fleet of 108 717s that could insource the flying of over 200 CRJ-200s.

QANTAS747-438 · Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:17 pm

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 85):

Uhhh... that's an unusually specific and detailed rumor.

LAXtoATL · Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 85):
Here is another rumor about the 717. Looks like the 717 may is being used as a form of trade with Delta for a gate SWAP in ATL. Sources say that WN first 4 gates will be at the D gates starting in Feb 2012 and now WN and Delta are in talks about trading All the FL C gates for all of Delta D gates. Along with this gate trade WN will trade 30 717 for 10 737-700 and 3 737-800 from Delta next year.Along with this WN will be adding a mix of 80 new and used 737-700 and 800 from a Boeing leasing company from June 2012 until Jan 2013. During this time frame 6 717 will be moved from the fleet at a time and replaced with New and used 737-700 and 800. Delta will add the 717 to replace the 29 DC 9 50 and the 13 737 in the swap plus add additional aircraft. When all is said and done WN will have off loaded all of the 717. Retired all the 737-500 and a few 737-300. The cost saving from not having redo any 717 into the WN fleet and the retirement off all the 737-500 and some older 300 will end up saving WN millions a year. And at ATL WN will end up with all the D gates with 30 gates total that will be able to handle a 737-800 The only down side is 1# no 717 in ever in the WN fleet. sound like a good plan to me..any thoughts on this new rumor? enjoy wnfg

Here is the problem with the rumor as I see it in terms of the gate swap...
FL/WN can give DL their half of concourse C, but DL only has a handful of gates of D (the rest of the gates belong to other airlines). So, Delta might be willing to play ball with them, but the scenario you described would result in Delta taking over the entire C concourse and WN having less than one concourse (and less gate space and total gates than they previously had). I don't think WN would really engage in a transaction that would result in less gate space. Unlike most I don't see WN growing FL's ATL operation, however I also don't see them shrinking it either. So I would be very skeptical about this rumor.

As for the planes...
If the price is right I don't think you take anything off the table as far as Delta is concerned, but I just don't see them wanting to add the 717 at this point, maybe before the M90 build up. I think Delta will stick with their current fleet makeup and look for the next generation of aircraft to join their fleet instead of adding another orphan type that will have to be replaced in another decade or so.

JoeCanuck · Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:54 pm

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 85):

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 89):

Uhhh... that's an unusually specific and detailed rumor.

That very thought also occured to me. It's almost as if there really was a fly on the wall...with a recording device.

n7371f · Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:48 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 81):
Didn't Kelly say that he liked the 717s when we first announced the FL aquisition? I found this article where at the very end, tells of what Kelly said back a year ago.

Yes. The classic pre-merger talk where they acquiring airline likes everything about the airline it's buying. Everything will be great! I've yet to experience a merger where that actually happens. What's playing out with the 717 is no different than many of the hollow promises made by Delta toward Northwest and frankly nearly every other merger that's gone down since the mid-80's.

ikramerica · Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 85):
Here is another rumor about the 717. Looks like the 717 may is being used as a form of trade with Delta for a gate SWAP in ATL. Sources say that WN first 4 gates will be at the D gates starting in Feb 2012 and now WN and Delta are in talks about trading All the FL C gates for all of Delta D gates. Along with this gate trade WN will trade 30 717 for 10 737-700 and 3 737-800 from Delta next year.Along with this WN will be adding a mix of 80 new and used 737-700 and 800 from a Boeing leasing company from June 2012 until Jan 2013. During this time frame 6 717 will be moved from the fleet at a time and replaced with New and used 737-700 and 800. Delta will add the 717 to replace the 29 DC 9 50 and the 13 737 in the swap plus add additional aircraft. When all is said and done WN will have off loaded all of the 717. Retired all the 737-500 and a few 737-300. The cost saving from not having redo any 717 into the WN fleet and the retirement off all the 737-500 and some older 300 will end up saving WN millions a year. And at ATL WN will end up with all the D gates with 30 gates total that will be able to handle a 737-800 The only down side is 1# no 717 in ever in the WN fleet. sound like a good plan to me..any thoughts on this new rumor? enjoy wnfg

While it sounds logical, also sounds a bit like collusion between the two biggest players at ATL to me and smacks of anti-trust concerns.

adtall · Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:57 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 90):
Here is the problem with the rumor as I see it in terms of the gate swap...
FL/WN can give DL their half of concourse C, but DL only has a handful of gates of D (the rest of the gates belong to other airlines). So, Delta might be willing to play ball with them, but the scenario you described would result in Delta taking over the entire C concourse and WN having less than one concourse (and less gate space and total gates than they previously had). I don't think WN would really engage in a transaction that would result in less gate space. Unlike most I don't see WN growing FL's ATL operation, however I also don't see them shrinking it either. So I would be very skeptical about this rumor.

DL has almost all of the north half of D (US has three gates near the spine) plus the 4 former NW gates by the spine on the south half of D, so purely from a gate numbers standpoint I'd say it's almost if not even. That said, DL just last week opened a SkyClub on D and they have also done some substantial renovations on some below-wing facilities in the last year so they've just spent some major money on D and I doubt they'd just walk away without compensation.

adtall · Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:09 pm

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 85):
And at ATL WN will end up with all the D gates with 30 gates total that will be able to handle a 737-800

That all depends, right now FL has access to 10 gates on D (two of which are shared with CO and NK respectively), so combine that with DL's gates on D and there'd be about 27-29 gates depending on spacing. One other thing to consider, though, is the final decision on where CO/UA end up. CO currently has 4 gates on D and UA has 3 on T, and I highly doubt that UA will end up on T. So that's two-three gates more that UA will likely need on D as well as putting all of WN on D in this scenario.

bonusonus · Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 85):
Here is another rumor about the 717. Looks like the 717 may is being used as a form of trade with Delta for a gate SWAP in ATL. Sources say that WN first 4 gates will be at the D gates starting in Feb 2012 and now WN and Delta are in talks about trading All the FL C gates for all of Delta D gates. Along with this gate trade WN will trade 30 717 for 10 737-700 and 3 737-800 from Delta next year.Along with this WN will be adding a mix of 80 new and used 737-700 and 800 from a Boeing leasing company from June 2012 until Jan 2013. During this time frame 6 717 will be moved from the fleet at a time and replaced with New and used 737-700 and 800. Delta will add the 717 to replace the 29 DC 9 50 and the 13 737 in the swap plus add additional aircraft. When all is said and done WN will have off loaded all of the 717. Retired all the 737-500 and a few 737-300. The cost saving from not having redo any 717 into the WN fleet and the retirement off all the 737-500 and some older 300 will end up saving WN millions a year. And at ATL WN will end up with all the D gates with 30 gates total that will be able to handle a 737-800 The only down side is 1# no 717 in ever in the WN fleet. sound like a good plan to me..any thoughts on this new rumor? enjoy wnfg

Either this is completely made up, or it's exactly what WN and DL are going to do.
My question is, what type of age are we looking at for the 737-700s and -800s coming from DL? Are any of them brand new?

bennett123 · Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:20 pm

Seems more efficient and convenient to have all of DL/WN operations in a single terminal.

This benefits the airlines AND their customers.

Why should there be anti trust issues.

Cubsrule · Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:31 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 93):
and smacks of anti-trust concerns.

Why would there be any antitrust concerns? There's no increase in concentration and it doesn't change the barriers to entry at ATL any.

micstatic · Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:32 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 93):
While it sounds logical, also sounds a bit like collusion between the two biggest players at ATL to me and smacks of anti-trust concerns.

I don't agree. Sounds like a gate swap component to a business deal. As said above, convenient to passengers

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