bjorn14
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Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:33 am

If Windsor (YQG) were to get US pre-clearance could it become a legitimate alternative to Wayne Metro? Seems like such a nice airport going to waste?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:20 am

Only if you have a passport now. I think it could have been had we not gone into this stupid need for a passport to travel between Canada and the U.S.

I am still surprised that Windsor doesn't really have any flights to the U.S. like WJA charter flights to MCO in the winter like they do at London and Hamilton.
 
vincewy
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:24 am

Plus, Canadians go all the way to fly out of DTW, I see this at border crossing with customs going through people's luggage and many cars with Ontario license plates in the airport parking lots.
 
kl911
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:35 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
Only if you have a passport now. I think it could have been had we not gone into this stupid need for a passport to travel between Canada and the U.S.

Well, don't we need a passport for flying anyway? No matter if its Intl or domestic, passport or official IDcard ( almost same price as passport and EU valid only. ) are compulsory.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:47 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):
Well, don't we need a passport for flying anyway?

Not in the US. Most people in the US don't have passports, because it's not nearly as common for people in the US to cross national borders, given the geographic situation of the US. And even the people who have passports don't usually bring them on domestic flights; we usually use our state-issued driver's license/ID card.

In the past, we were able to use those IDs to travel to Canada. Not anymore, which has caused a lot of controversy.
 
thrufru
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:50 am

Any airport can serve as an alternate and in an emergency, immigration/passport control can take a back seat to safety. However, it's important to remember that one of the principle criteria for selecting an alternate is that it's far enough away from the intended airport of landing that it won't be affected by the same weather. YQG is only 21 miles on the great circle route from DTW, so in this case and because the weather is generally similar at the two locations, (microclimes do play into selection sometimes) it wouldn't make operational sense.
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:08 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
I am still surprised that Windsor doesn't really have any flights to the U.S. like WJA charter flights to MCO in the winter like they do at London and Hamilton.

The problem is who would choose to fly from YQG for $400 when you could drive to DTW and fly for (just checked Nov DTW-MCO) for $220? People will drive that even with border delays, and many do.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
Metjetceo
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:51 pm

I think WIllow Run would be a better option for passenger service (again) before people would adopt the Windsor border crossing on a routine basis.

Note, this is the opinion of an American that does not have to deal with the border crossing. However, I also understand the Canadian demand for cheaper flights...but if you drive across the river for cheaper flights you are likely looking for a destination that DTW would have over an expansion airport, etc.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:24 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Seems like such a nice airport going to waste?


It isn't a big airport. You can see most of the terminal in this photo of me standing in front of it.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/BryanatWindsorAP.jpg

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 6):
The problem is who would choose to fly from YQG for $400 when you could drive to DTW and fly for (just checked Nov DTW-MCO) for $220? People will drive that even with border delays, and many do.


Flying from YQG always means a connection at YYZ, and if you go to DTW you can get to MCO and a lot of other places non stop.

Quoting MetJetCEO (Reply 7):
I think WIllow Run would be a better option for passenger service (again) before people would adopt the Windsor border crossing on a routine basis.


That airport has a lot more space to grow should it ever need to.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):
Well, don't we need a passport for flying anyway? No matter if its Intl or domestic, passport or official IDcard



to get into the USA from Canada you need a passport, enhanced drivers license, NEXUS car, or passport card. Not all that long ago you just needed a state ID or drivers license. Then you needed a birth certificate, now you must have one of the above types. You don't need it to fly, you need it to cross the boarder.

Another issue that is overlooked by a lot of people that would cause havoc, if YQG was a major alternative to Detroit is the Canada now has access to US FBI criminal back ground checks. A lot of people are not allowed to go to Canada even if they have minor criminal offenses and have served their sentence. If you have a drunk driving violation you are not allowed in Canada. I know A LOT of people who have a DUI on their record and have paid they fines, served their sentences, but are not allowed in Canada, but travel to a lot of other places in the world. The Canadians added that to their Refugee and immigrant protection act a number of years ago. I don't see how that protects immigrants or refugees.

I have also known people who have had minor drug possession tickets who were denied entrance to Canada, even though those "crimes" were decades old.

I have also seen people be denied entrance to Canada because they didn't appear to have enough money. I was with a friend once and they ask him how much cash he had on him him. He said he had none. They said "he was not allowed in Canada because he was "vagrant". My buddy said "I have my credit cards" and they said that was ok and let him in. They never ask me. I have been ask about that money thing several times in the last ten years.

That being said there are just a lot of people who can't enter Canada and don't even know it yet. Imagine planning a trip and deciding to fly out of YQG and you are with you wife and kids and you are denied entry to Canada because you had a DWI nine years ago, or got caught with a bag of weed when you were 18, and are arrested at the border and removed from Canada in handcuffs. The rest of your family can continue on their vacation. This kind of nonsense would really happen a lot if YQG were a bigger airport.

If the USA was as tough as the Canadians I bet there would not be as many of them coming to DTW.
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bjorn14
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:42 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
Most people in the US don't have passports

Last stat I read is that only about 28% of Americans have a passport, could be more now.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
gte439u
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:45 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 8):
Another issue that is overlooked by a lot of people that would cause havoc, if YQG was a major alternative to Detroit is the Canada now has access to US FBI criminal back ground checks. A lot of people are not allowed to go to Canada even if they have minor criminal offenses and have served their sentence. If you have a drunk driving violation you are not allowed in Canada. I know A LOT of people who have a DUI on their record and have paid they fines, served their sentences, but are not allowed in Canada, but travel to a lot of other places in the world. The Canadians added that to their Refugee and immigrant protection act a number of years ago. I don't see how that protects immigrants or refugees.

The relevant statute is called the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, S.C. 2001, c. 27 (http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/sc-2001-c-27/latest/sc-2001-c-27.html). That act deals with both immigration to Canada and the protection of refugees under Canada's international obligations. The emphasis in the portions of the act dealing with immigration to Canada is to protect Canada from 'foreign nationals' (including U.S. Citizens) who have committed a crime inside or outside of Canada. People who have committed, either in Canada or abroad, what is known as an 'Indictable Offence' under Canada's Criminal Code are generally unwelcome to enter Canada without permission from the government. In Canada, drunk driving is an Indictable Offence, so a U.S. Citizen who was convicted of drunk driving under the equivalent Michigan law would be unwelcome in Canada unless that U.S. Citizen applies for permission before entering Canada.

Please note that the United States treats Canadians in the same way. Canadian citizens who have a drunk driving conviction are unwelcome in the United States. (http://www.pardons.org/us_entry_waivers.html)

After 9-11-2001, both countries began sharing information on these subjects, so people who had never gotten caught are now forbidden from entering the other country without permission.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 8):

That being said there are just a lot of people who can't enter Canada and don't even know it yet. Imagine planning a trip and deciding to fly out of YQG and you are with you wife and kids and you are denied entry to Canada because you had a DWI nine years ago, or got caught with a bag of weed when you were 18, and are arrested at the border and removed from Canada in handcuffs. The rest of your family can continue on their vacation. This kind of nonsense would really happen a lot if YQG were a bigger airport.

The United States does "that kind of nonsense" to Canadians and foreigners all the time, who have criminal convictions and have not applied for permission to enter the U.S.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 8):
If the USA was as tough as the Canadians I bet there would not be as many of them coming to DTW.

The U.S.A. is far tougher than Canada. Border crossings between the two countries have fallen.

I have the right to enter and live in both the U.S. and Canada. The U.S. guards are tough on my Canadian friends when we fly down for the weekend.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:36 pm

Flint..FNT is close to established as another Detroit airport. Its quite easy to get to FNT from the north Detroit subs
than it is to get to DTW. I-75 takes you within 3/4 mile of the FNT airport parking and entrance. You also have an E-W
freeway I-69 from Port Huron to the east to Lansing to the west. FNT also pulls alot of folks from the north down I-75 to Bishop Airport.
Willow Run...YIP, would benefit Ann Arbor and Jackson which is west.
You're gonna need a new terminal at YIP to accommodate pax, and that cost $$$$$ which will rule out YIP.
The only other maybe is Selfredge ANG at Mt. Clemens, northeast of Detroit off I-94......and that's a tall order. I wouldn't bet on Selfredge.
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WA707atMSP
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:50 pm

After World War II, there were proposals to make YQG Detroit's primary airport.

The proposals called for a second span of the Ambassador bridge, and a direct freeway from the bridge to a US domestic terminal at YQG. Passengers taking US domestic flights out of YQG would not have legally needed to clear customs en route to / from YQG.

At the time, City Airport could not accomodate anything larger than a DC-3, and airlines were using YIP "temporarily" until a permanent new airport could be developed. Other proposals included a man made island in Lake St. Clair a few miles off shore from the Grosse Pointes, and an entirely new greenfield airport in Warren, where the General Motors Technical Center was ultimately built.

Of course, politicians in southeast Michigan were not able to agree on any of these proposals (some things never change), so airlines began gradually moving from YIP to DTW (which is actually older than DET) as piecemeal improvements to DTW were completed.
 
ScottB
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:51 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
If Windsor (YQG) were to get US pre-clearance could it become a legitimate alternative to Wayne Metro?

Generally not, due to the tax burden involved with a trans-border flight. The taxes can add $50 round-trip -- and U.S. passengers would face the inconvenience of two border crossings each way.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
If Windsor (YQG) were to get US pre-clearance could it become a legitimate alternative to Wayne Metro? Seems like such a nice airport going to waste?

My question is why? DTW is no where near congested and the facilities are top notch. Maybe for flying within Canada or Windsor area residents it is a legitimate alternative, but IMO, nothing is needed as an alternative for DTW.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 14):
My question is why? DTW is no where near congested and the facilities are top notch. Maybe for flying within Canada or Windsor area residents it is a legitimate alternative, but IMO, nothing is needed as an alternative for DTW.

We've had a number of discussions about YQG over the years. The major reason given in the past has been that YQG is much closer to downtown Detroit than DTW, so better for business people. 9/11 and attendant tougher border security, as noted above, nixed that advantage. And as Scott noted, since Canada taxes air travel heavily (thinking, I'd note, that it's somehow appropriate to milk airline pax to help fund their health-care system) that harms cost advantage.

The reason, I think that Windsor was discussed as an alternate downtown airport is that DET's 5,090 foot main runway is a bit on the short side. Due to cemeteries on both ends, probably can't lengthen it. Did WN and ProAir weight-restrict their flights?

BTW, I drove to DET when I was in Detroit this spring (see my pic at MyAviation.net).

MyAviation.net:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photographer © James C. Kruggel


Yes, DET is in a bad neighborhood, but it's not like I wouldn't drive there. Maybe it's because I live in Northeast DC and am used to an inner-city area, but I wouldn't let the neighborhood deter me from using DET.

Jim

P.S. Denying people entry to a country because of old convictions, long ago served, is unjust. They paid their debt to society and should be viewed as citizens in good standing.

[Edited 2011-08-30 09:02:27]
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robsaw
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):
Well, don't we need a passport for flying anyway? No matter if its Intl or domestic, passport or official IDcard ( almost same price as passport and EU valid only. ) are compulsory.

No you don't need a passport for domestic and ANY gov't issued ID is sufficient (driver's licence). Yes, ALL international travel, at least in or out of Canada/USA requires a passport.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:28 pm

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 11):
Flint..FNT is close to established as another Detroit airport. Its quite easy to get to FNT from the north Detroit subs
than it is to get to DTW. I-75 takes you within 3/4 mile of the FNT airport parking and entrance



I have friends who live in the northern suburbs of Detroit (Lake Orion and Oxford) and FNT is a closer and faster drive for them.

Quoting gte439u (Reply 10):
After 9-11-2001, both countries began sharing information on these subjects, so people who had never gotten caught are now forbidden from entering the other country without permission.


The reason this kind of think gets me upset is that we have illegals pouring over our southern border and the Canadians also have issues with illegals, but we can hassle people with drunk driving convictions that pose little or no threat to either country.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
gte439u
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:13 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):
Quoting gte439u (Reply 10):
After 9-11-2001, both countries began sharing information on these subjects, so people who had never gotten caught are now forbidden from entering the other country without permission.


The reason this kind of think gets me upset is that we have illegals pouring over our southern border and the Canadians also have issues with illegals, but we can hassle people with drunk driving convictions that pose little or no threat to either country.

You're preaching to the choir on this matter! The issues in each country are different. Whereas the U.S. has millions of undocumented workers crossing by land, Canada has many who arrive legally or as refugees and then fail to depart Canada at the ordered time.

I don't want my native U.S to be overrun with foreign criminals, but I don't want my adopted home in Canada overrun with Americans with criminal records. I think that both the U.S. and Canada should take a risk management approach to determining whether an old conviction should bar entry to that country. For example, a 10-year old DUI conviction should be treated differently than a one-year old conviction for sexual assault. Canadian Border Services Officers generally have the discretion to allow a foreign national to enter Canada for older crimes that were not crimes of violence.

Both Canada and the U.S. suffer a reduction in trade and tourism when there is uncertainty in crossing the border

[Edited 2011-08-30 10:22:37]
 
delimit
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:18 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
Not anymore, which has caused a lot of controversy.

Still can if you have one of the enhanced IDs.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:18 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):
we have illegals pouring over our southern border
Really?

There is too much immigration hysteria in both Canada and the U.S., and it hurts both countries' economies (for everyone) with very little gain. People focus myopically on "jobs" and forget that everyone here, whether immigrant or not, buys stuff, which creates more jobs.

Quoting gte439u (Reply 18):
I think that both the U.S. and Canada should take a risk management approach to determining whether an old conviction should bar entry to that country.

   And the vast majority of people seeking entry to both countries do not present any serious risk.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:19 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
we usually use our state-issued driver's license/ID card.

Which are usually free of charge to state residents vs. the $135 charge for a US passport.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 21):
Which are usually free of charge to state residents

Never heard of any state giving them away for free.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
mls515
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:53 pm

My state issues non-driver ID's for $5.00. That's almost free.
 
gte439u
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 21):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
we usually use our state-issued driver's license/ID card.

Which are usually free of charge to state residents vs. the $135 charge for a US passport.

The possession of a standard, non-enhanced driver's licence or state identity card is not proof of citizenship for the purposes of international travel. Some U.S. states issue driver's licences to undocumented residents. As far as I know, all states and Canadian provinces will issue a starndard driver's licence to a foreign national with appropriate immigration documents.

Unless one possess an enhanced driver's licence that shows proof of citizenship, it is difficult to verify the citizenship of the holder.

This is important since a Mexican national living with a temporary visa in the U.S. who possesses a U.S. driver's licence may appear to entry to Canada. Canada requires citizens of Mexico to possess a Canadian visa to enter Canada. There is no way that a Canadian border officer could determine if the holder of a U.S. licence alone required a visa to enter Canada.

[Edited 2011-08-30 12:13:43]
 
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ADent
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:08 pm

Looks like only 4 states (8%) issue enhanced driver's licence.

If you fly out of Windsor you need a passport, even if you can cross the border with an EDL.
 
brilondon
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:44 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
I am still surprised that Windsor doesn't really have any flights to the U.S. like WJA charter flights to MCO in the winter like they do at London and Hamilton.



The terminal in YQR is very small and the runway is too short for any thing larger than a 737. I don't think they even have a dedicated passport control, I could be wrong on this, and there are very little in the way of facilities.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 15):
P.S. Denying people entry to a country because of old convictions, long ago served, is unjust. They paid their debt to society and should be viewed as citizens in good standing.



The US does not even allow people who have a juvenile record of a criminal offence into the US.

Quoting mls515 (Reply 23):
My state issues non-driver ID's for $5.00. That's almost free.



We have age of majority cards here in Ontario as well but the US does not recognize them for purposes of air travel because they do not have a magnetic strip with the information that the US requires for entry into their country.
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isitsafenow
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:47 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
am still surprised that Windsor doesn't really have any flights to the U.S. like WJA charter flights to MCO in the winter like they do at London and Hamilton.

In the good ole days, WardAir did an occasional charter out of Windsor to MickeyLand.
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Viscount724
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:56 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 26):
The terminal in YQR is very small and the runway is too short for any thing larger than a 737.

The longest 7901 ft. runway at YQR should be able to handle many types larger than the 737, including widebodies.
 
toltommy
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:25 pm

YQG doesn't need to be an alternative for both sides of the river, if it were to make a major try, it would need to focus on keeping Canadians from crossing the border to fly. It would most likely take a new terminal so that a preclearance facility could be built. It would also take a major change on the part of the Canadian gov't. YQG can't compete with airfares from DTW because of the taxes on transborder air travel.

Taxes on transborder flying is the killer, on both sides of the border. I don't even consider flying when I need to go to YYZ. It's 4 hours by car, really not much of a time savings, especially when going downtown T.O. The taxes on the ticket for me alone offsets the gas, put a coworker or family member in the car, and it's a no brainer.
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ghYHZ
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:46 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 26):
The terminal in YQR is very small and the runway is too short for any thing larger than a 737. I don't think they even have a dedicated passport control, I could be wrong on this, and there are very little in the way of facilities.

Believe you mean YQG

And sure the runways can handle aircraft larger than a '737. Back in the '60s, Canadian Pacific had scheduled DC-8 service to Mexico City:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NAVmt72iYS...s/vdI4XF1XHEE/s1600-h/scan0016.jpg
 
Viscount724
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:46 pm

YQG's longest scheduled flight was probably Canadian Pacific's weekly YQG-MEX nonstop that operated from 1962 until about 1970. One of their YYZ-MEX or YUL-MEX flights stopped at YQG once a week in each direction. It was sometimes part of a flight that continued to/from LIM-SCL-EZE. For the first couple of years it used the Bristol Britannia turboprop but in 1964 it was upgraded to the DC-8. The YQG stop was dropped in late 1969 or early 1970.

CP Britannia operating the MEX flight (and TCA Viscount) at YQG in the following April 1962 photo.

 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:04 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
Quoting brilondon (Reply 26):
The terminal in YQG is very small and the runway is too short for any thing larger than a 737.

The longest 7901 ft. runway at YQG should be able to handle many types larger than the 737, including widebodies.

Several airlines flew transatlantic charters from YQG in the 1960s and 1970s, including some that bussed passengers over from Detroit.

In 1979, Canada and Britain allowed the DC-10 to re enter service several weeks before the US did. Laker temporarily moved their ORD-LGW charters to YQG, and bussed passengers from Windsor to Chicago, until DC-10s were allowed to resume operations in the USA.
 
IAD380
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:19 pm

DTW has more flights to destinations in Canada than YQG. AC offers several daily flights between Windsor and Toronto. WestJet has a seasonal summer flight from YQG to YYC. No airline flies nonstop from YGQ to YUL, YQB, YHZ or YVR. DL and its subsidiaries fly nonstop from DTW to these Canadian cities. Surprisingly, no Canadian airline flies nonstop from Windsor to Montreal. As a result, travellers between Windsor and Montreal must either fly through DTW or transfer in Toronto.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):
Well, don't we need a passport for flying anyway? No matter if its Intl or domestic, passport or official IDcard ( almost same price as passport and EU valid only. ) are compulsory.

Did Canadians need them to fly to the U.S. before 2006 or whenever that silly passport rule came about (sometime after 2005 because I was last in Canada in 2005 without the need of a passport)

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 6):
The problem is who would choose to fly from YQG for $400 when you could drive to DTW and fly for (just checked Nov DTW-MCO) for $220? People will drive that even with border delays, and many do.

Well YQG doesn't have a direct flight to MCO as of yet. I was saying if they did on West Jet possibly. I am not aware of any direct flights from Windsor to MCO, just London.

Quoting MetJetCEO (Reply 7):
I think WIllow Run would be a better option for passenger service (again) before people would adopt the Windsor border crossing on a routine basis.

YIP doesn't even have a terminal, plus it would be pointless as it is only about 6-8miles from DTW as the crow flies (about 10 min on I-94) plus YIP would need a runway and taxiway system makeover big time.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 8):
Flying from YQG always means a connection at YYZ, and if you go to DTW you can get to MCO and a lot of other places non stop.

Well the original reason I said YQG with flights to MCO was the original question being an alternate airport to DTW - if the passport issue didn't come about, we might see some Detroit area passengers use YQG as an alternate to MCO if WJA flew to MCO from YQG and had some cheap fares.

Quoting gte439u (Reply 10):
The U.S.A. is far tougher than Canada. Border crossings between the two countries have fallen

Tell me about it. When I was 19 and lived up north I went to Canada almost every weekend for the obvious reasons. Canadian Customs agents were cool, they'd just tell you to have a good time (probably because they knew us Americans were helping their economy). Coming back we always got grilled by American CBP.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 11):
Flint..FNT is close to established as another Detroit airport. Its quite easy to get to FNT from the north Detroit subs
than it is to get to DTW. I-75 takes you within 3/4 mile of the FNT airport parking and entrance. You also have an E-W
freeway I-69 from Port Huron to the east to Lansing to the west. FNT also pulls alot of folks from the north down I-75 to Bishop Airport.

Flint pretty much is Detroit area's alternate airport. I know a lot of people in Oakland and Macomb County that use FNT now.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 11):
Willow Run...YIP, would benefit Ann Arbor and Jackson which is west.
You're gonna need a new terminal at YIP to accommodate pax, and that cost $$$$$ which will rule out YIP.

It is pointless. DTW is only about a 10 min drive further east than YIP down I-94. YIP and DTW are both owned by the Wayne County Airport Authority so it wouldn't be really complimenting their operation. It would cost at least $2 billion to get that place up and running for passenger service and the Detroit area doesn't really have that demand like New York with their 3 Port Authority owned pax airports.

A new terminal would need to be built, who are you going to attract to fly to YIP instead of DTW? Maybe a Vision Airlines or remotely possible Allegiant. YIP needs to redo its runways - their main runway 25L doesn't even have a taxiway, its taxiway is another runway 25R, its other runways don't have parallel taxiways. On top of that their is an issue with airspace (DTW and YIP are always overflying each other's airspace). Growing up in Livonia, I was under the flight path for both airports. DTW's flights were always higher up, YIP planes would come low over my house - I remember those Zantop DC-6s,Convairs, Electras, Kalitta DC-8s and 747s and later USA Jet DC-9s.

The runway they do want to expant at YIP is 9L/27R, but the approach to 27L (parallel to Ecorse Road) takes aircraft right into DTW's approaches.

YIP will always be what Wayne County Airport Authority has it as - a CARGO and general aviation RELIEVER airport. Its a good airport for the smaller cargo operations and maybe some day UPS and Fed Ex moves there if they have additional terminal plans for DTW (thought doubtful at this point in time)

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 11):
The only other maybe is Selfredge ANG at Mt. Clemens, northeast of Detroit off I-94......and that's a tall order. I wouldn't bet on Selfredge

That was actually proposed about 20 years ago. Other than FNT, that would be your best bet for a second Detroit area airport. It would be ideal logistics wise if they ever decommissioned Selfridge ANG as a military base:

a. Its got a 10,000 ft runway
b. Its towered
c. Its got good freeway access to I-94
d. Great for people who live in Macomb County like Warren, Sterling Heights (both cities with over 100,000 population each) as well as Roseville, Mt. Clemens etc as well as even Port Huron, which is closer to MTC than FNT.

HOWEVER:

The chances are slim to none now.

a. People are moving out of Michigan by the thousands each year to other states so air travel demand is going down
b. Poor economy especially in Detroit area (although some of the richest suburbs are closer to MTC than FNT or DTW such as Grosse Point, St. Clair Shores, and some of the areas north of Utica MI.)
c. NIMBYs would shoot that idea down, they are dealing with the jets taking off from Selfridge as it is and don't want more noise - they are probably happy to have those F-16s replaced by A-10s now.
d. Government probably doesn't want to operate a dual civilian/military airport.


But then a caveat to D. I predict Selfridge in the next few years especially with the big need for budget cuts to go the way of the other Michigan bases - Sawyer and Wurtsmith - gone. They already are slowly dismantling Selfridge as it is. The F-16s were moved out, and A-10s brought in when Battle Creek ANG was closed. The C-130s were moved to Ohio ANG, the KC-135 squadron sent to MacDill AFB Tampa, the P-3s have been gone for a while. Basically Selfridge is just now the A-10s and some KC-135s from the Air National Guard. I wouldn't be surprised with the next round of base closures, Selfridge goes.

If that is the case, I would hate to see a facility just sit there empty with a good runway. The terminal would probably be built on the west side of the field instead.

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 14):
My question is why? DTW is no where near congested and the facilities are top notch. Maybe for flying within Canada or Windsor area residents it is a legitimate alternative, but IMO, nothing is needed as an alternative for DTW.

If Michigan always had a booming economy, then yes and if DTW was landlocked like MDW, MIA, LGA etc then there would be a need. With Detroit areas population probably falling close to 500,000 in the past decade there is no need. DTW has 4 parallel runways and plans eventually for a 5th. There is plenty of room for more terminal facilities - something could be put where the Smith currently rots away, as well as McNamara could be further expanded - B and C concourse have room to expand, there are even some proposals to decommission Runway 9L/27R and expand McNamara A concourse to the north. There is also a large area that could fit a similarly size to McNamara Terminal west of the Mac Terminal between 4L/22R and 4R/22L.
 
ghYHZ
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:32 pm

A bit off-topic but if you head a few miles north of Detroit/Windsor to the Soo, you once had Trans Canada Airlines (Air Canada) serving Sault St. Marie, Ontario from the airport in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. Until YAM opened in 1960 passengers were bussed “in-bond” across the border to catch their “domestic” Canadian flights.

Oh how simple things were pre 9-11!
 
timpdx
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:50 pm

I didn't know that Canada had access to all these databases. No wonder a well dressed man I saw was turned around for soliciting a prostitute. Not only that, but in the customs building, the agent said it loudly for all to hear. Canadian customs used to welcome Americans with a friendly wave in at the border, now they are all militarized, wearing body armor, pulling over anyone and everyone, just generally being jerks. I got one of those "agressive" "don't touch my junk" patdowns when I flew out of BC this year was longer than the usually awful wait to clear the US side. Why, all of the sudden, of all places, Canada has turned into the biggest customs hassle this side of the former Soviet Union states? I will take my $$ and see the rest of the world, thank you very much, much less drive to Windsor to catch a flight (or over the border to YVR)

[Edited 2011-08-30 16:52:02]
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ORDJOE
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:16 am

Given how much the economy of Detroit and Windsor are in shambles, they are lucky to have as much service as they do in DTW
 
heathrow
Posts: 367
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:50 am

Flying in Canada is always more expensive. The taxes alone are usually double what they are in the U.S. Most of my clients will fly out of BLI (YVR clients), BUF (YYZ and area clients), and GTF (YYC clients) to avoid the costs and to have the non-stop service.

I don't see YQG being another main airport in the area. I think right now it's QK, PD and possibly WS and JV. Not much more is needed really....
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:33 am

i think the fares to DTW are much lower than to Windsor...especially if they're transborder.
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AussieItaliano
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:40 am

Quoting gte439u (Reply 10):
In Canada, drunk driving is an Indictable Offence, so a U.S. Citizen who was convicted of drunk driving under the equivalent Michigan law would be unwelcome in Canada unless that U.S. Citizen applies for permission before entering Canada.

Canada treats impaired driving as a very serious offence. That is why many people who apply for "deemed rehabilitation" under IRPA still don't get into Canada if the offence was a DUI/DWI. There have been cases where Americans had been going to Canada for years, some even had bought property in Canada, but because of the FBI files now being made available to Canada Immigration and Customs, those people can't enter Canada because old convictions are now being discovered.

Quoting gte439u (Reply 10):
The U.S.A. is far tougher than Canada. Border crossings between the two countries have fallen.

Indeed. I am a Citizen of the USA and Italy, and I have been to Canada many times. I have NEVER had a problem going into Canada, but have frequently been hassled coming back into the USA. It's about 10 times as bad for my Canadian relatives when they come to the USA.

As for the original topic, I think DTW has plenty of available options for domestic travel. YQG might be more convenient than flying DTW-another Canadian city, but that's about all I could think of using YQG for as opposed to DTW.

As for Canadians using DTW for flights to other US cities, it makes sense. They would have to go through immigration and customs anyway, so it makes sense to cross the border on land, and then fly from DTW, especially if they save a good amount of money.

I have relatives in Kitchener, ON who drive to BUF and then fly onward to other US cities.
Third Runway - LHR, Second Runway - LGW, Build Them Both!!!
 
hjulicher
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:32 pm

No one mentioned that there is already an airport in Detroit... DTT. City Airport has had service in the past, and there is already a terminal built, of course it would need some refurbishment.

I don't see why YQG has to have additional service. If there was demand for more services, YQG would be able to accommodate them. Yes, DTW has much more service to Canadian cities than YQG, but that's mostly because of the O/D that exist inherently from Detroit and the connections that DTW offers. It's the two combined that make it work. I would not want to have to drive to Windsor to get on a flight just because it's a domestic Canadian flight, I'm sure that the times to cross the boarder and get to the airport would outweigh the benefit.

The economy in Detroit and the area is on the rebound. The national media loves to show how deplorable things are in Detroit, but many of you who have not been here simply don't know. You let the media tell you what to think. Detroit's economy is cyclical, with automakers doing well, we see a lot of growth and prosperity, with them doing poorly, the same holds for the area. The car makers are doing quite well now, and it's only a matter of time before this ripples down fully into the economy. The economy is more stable currently in the Metro Detroit area than it is elsewhere.

The urgent issue is to diversify the economy during the good times when there is money. That depends on astute leadership which lately we haven't really had. I'm hoping things turn around.

Anyways, DTW has a lot of services, great facilities, and a good geographical location for a lot of passenger flows. I think that at some 35 million people, it's a quite sizeable operation. Why should it be growing at astronomical rates, that will only worsen the airport and the facilities.
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DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 4200
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:11 pm

Quoting hjulicher (Reply 41):
No one mentioned that there is already an airport in Detroit... DTT. City Airport has had service in the past, and there is already a terminal built, of course it would need some refurbishment.

Take a look at Reply 15.  

Jim
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N766UA
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:27 pm

I don't think Detroit needs an alternative. As big airports go, it's enormously efficient and actually quite pleasant to fly through. It's also far less delay-prone than nearby ORD or other east coast domestic hubs like PHL, EWR, or IAD. I'd imagine the vast majority of traffic is connecting, as Detroit itself really isn't much of a destination, and I don't think there's enough of a backlog of O&D traffic to require a second airport.
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 244
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:47 pm

The only Canadian airport that my friends have used as an alternative to DTW is, somewhat counterintuitively, YYZ, which has the scale to provide non-stops to several European destinations that aren't served from DTW and/or sometimes has lower prices for trans-atlantic flights than DTW, making the four hour car ride worth it. Windsor could never provide the scale or lower prices for trans-atlantic flights compared to DTW.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 21):
Which are usually free of charge to state residents


Never seen or heard of a free ID

Quoting ADent (Reply 25):
If you fly out of Windsor you need a passport, even if you can cross the border with an EDL.


Why? If you fly YQG to YYZ you flew a domestic flight.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
The longest 7901 ft. runway at YQR should be able to handle many types larger than the 737, including widebodies.


I have seen a DC-8 there.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 29):
Taxes on transborder flying is the killer, on both sides of the border. I don't even consider flying when I need to go to YYZ. It's 4 hours by car, really not much of a time savings, especially when going downtown T.O. The taxes on the ticket for me alone offsets the gas, put a coworker or family member in the car, and it's a no brainer.


The taxes are very high and in the Windsor-Quebec corridor a train is much cheaper. Last month I took the train from Windsor to Montreal. The ticket cost me $231 and and airline ticket would have cost me around $600. The train took a lot longer, with free wi-fi, free checked bags, an electrical socket at my seat, and a very comfortable seat it was worth the inconvenience of taking all day to get to Montreal. Last summer I did Windsor-Montreal-Quebec and return and for three people it cost $860.

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 40):
but because of the FBI files now being made available to Canada Immigration and Customs, those people can't enter Canada because old convictions are now being discovered.


What about somebody who comes from a country where criminal records are not shared with the Canadian government?

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 40):
Canada treats impaired driving as a very serious offence. That is why many people who apply for "deemed rehabilitation" under IRPA still don't get into Canada if the offence was a DUI/DWI.


I would bet that that law got in there due to some sort of political pandering. If they are worried about dangerous drivers they would also bar people who had convictions for A LOT of different traffic offenses, because distracted driving is distracted driving. If you are killed by a texting driver you are not any less dead than a person killed by a drunk driver. I have always found it odd that we vilify drunk driving so much but don't seem to give much thought to other behaviors that are just as dangerous. If 1/2 the people killed in wrecks are killed in alcohol related crashes that means 1/2 the deaths are not related to alcohol. Either way those people are just as dead.
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isitsafenow
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:41 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 32):
doesn't really have that demand like New York with their 3 Port Authority owned pax airports.

You forgot Stewart and Teterboro. There are five.

I think you agreed with me on YIP. I flew in and out of there a few times in the mid 60's.
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If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
AussieItaliano
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:57 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
I would bet that that law got in there due to some sort of political pandering. If they are worried about dangerous drivers they would also bar people who had convictions for A LOT of different traffic offenses, because distracted driving is distracted driving. If you are killed by a texting driver you are not any less dead than a person killed by a drunk driver. I have always found it odd that we vilify drunk driving so much but don't seem to give much thought to other behaviors that are just as dangerous. If 1/2 the people killed in wrecks are killed in alcohol related crashes that means 1/2 the deaths are not related to alcohol. Either way those people are just as dead.

I don't disagree with you. It is odd to me that DWI/DUI is treated much harsher than talking on the handheld phone/texting while driving, even though statistics show that they are equally dangerous.

However, the law in question, IRPA, mandates that someone who commits an offence that would have been considered an indictable offence if it were committed in Canada be excluded from entry to Canada as "criminally inadmissible". DWI/DUI meets that category of offences. Some other offences, such as reckless driving MAY meet that standard, but usually not convictions for reckless driving in a US jurisdiction. US reckless driving laws are much broader than Canada's Federal reckless driving law, so a conviction in a US court for reckless driving (dry reckless) does not make one criminally inadmissible unless there is some other evidence that shows an immigration officer that the offence would have been indictable if committed in Canada. "Wet reckless" convictions (reduced from DWI/DUI) can make you criminally inadmissible if the blood alcohol level was over .08.

If you are considered criminally inadmissible, you can only enter Canada after you have satisfied an immigration officer that you have been rehabilitated (paid a fine, completed probation, allowed 5 years to pass without re-offending, etc.). If 10 years have passed since you have completed probation, and you have not re-offended, you are more likely to satisfy an immigration officer that you have been rehabilitated, then you will likely be allowed into Canada.

Canadian Immigration Officers have the final say as to whether or not they will allow you entry into Canada. The reality is, however, that Canada treats DWI/DUI as an extremely serious offence, and therefore, your chances of getting into Canada with a conviction for DUI/DWI are much slimmer than if the conviction is for something else. I'm not saying that I'm a fan of this policy, but I do support the Canadian Government in applying THEIR standards to determine who THEY want in their country.
Third Runway - LHR, Second Runway - LGW, Build Them Both!!!
 
contrails15
Posts: 371
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:07 pm

It goes with the what BUF and BTV see all the time. Canadians coming over to fly out of these airports instead of Toronto and Montreal. We do a killing with Canadian travelers because its so dam expensive for them to fly in Canada. I once had a long talk with this guy from Ottawa. The crap they go through with the taxes and fees is insane.
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Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: Can Windsor Be An Alternative To DTW?

Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
The longest 7901 ft. runway at YQR should be able to handle many types larger than the 737, including widebodies.


I have seen a DC-8 there.

The longest YQG runway is actually 9000 ft, not 7901. In my earlier post I was referring to YQR (Regina) but I guess that was a typo in the post I was replying to.

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