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kl692
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:17 am

Forgive me if there is a post out there already for this but I couldn't find it. Does anyone know what the construction at YYZ is all about? they have been at for a while now and I have no idea what is going on. It is taking place on the north side of runway 23, close to power plant as well.

Thx
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tribird1011
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:27 am

What I heard a while ago, was that they planned on building a second de-icing facility where the former McDonnell Douglas plant was, however the soil was really contaminated up there (up to 30 feet deep), so they may just be digging it up for cleaning, I guess.

However, if we look at the GTAA's master plan

http://www.torontopearson.com/en/gtaa/master-plan/

and go to Chapter 14 - Land Use part 2, page 8, it appears that that section of land no longer belongs to the GTAA, so I'm not sure now what the plan is.

They are, however, planning to build a sixth runway (05R-23L) only time will tell, I suppose!!

[Edited 2011-08-30 23:56:06]

[Edited 2011-08-30 23:57:06]
 
kl692
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:47 pm

There is no way they gonna be able to build a runway. There. Not enough space.
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northstardc4m
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:48 pm

Quoting kl692 (Reply 2):
There is no way they gonna be able to build a runway. There. Not enough space.

Runway 6 is planned to go the otherside of the existing 23/5, lined up into the current Vista Cargo ramp and where between where the infield terminal currently is and 23/5.

[Edited 2011-08-31 07:49:08]
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pnwtraveler
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:28 pm

The former manufacturing site is undergoing soil remediation.. Some of the options for the site is additional cargo/air freight/intermodal combos, hangars and maintenance, and a mini-deicing for last minute touch ups after full deicing at the main central facility. The airport has the site where the AC pilot training facility was, "on the market". In addition there is the infield terminal that was designed to be converted to cargo. And a lot of under utilized space in the Northside General Aviation area. So there is a lot of property available, waiting for the right tenant. Pearson would to love to be getting lease income from some or all of it.

In addition, in the YYZ Reduced Rate Parking, the addition of the multi-story parking has made room for another onsite hotel, which is well underway. There is a lot of underused surface lot space. With the ability to expand the Terminal 1 and Reduced Rate buildings, options have included moving rental cars across Airport Road but still on the train to make more Terminal Three parking space where cars are currently positioned.

The 6th runway will be designed for Regional and private aircraft use and mostly for departures west. This is the greatest frequency departure direction. The idea being, keeping departures less clogged by streaming smaller/slower aircraft out of the departure stream of the main runways. However, early turnouts of those aircraft from the departure aircraft have improved takeoff efficiency sufficiently that this runway won't be needed for a long time. In addition, all the available space above, means Vista could easily be moved infield. The only barrier then would be the proximity of one of the AC Hangars and a couple buildings on the approach path. With those barriers taken care of a fourth full size east/west runway could be accomodated similar to the southern pair. Wether regional or full size, it is going to be quite a while until needed.

The old Terminal 2 parking garage has been demo'ed and you will see aircraft now parking in holding spots on new parking pads. This will be space for future arms of Terminal 1.
 
Gr8Circle
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:38 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 3):
Runway 6 is planned to go the otherside of the existing 23/5, lined up into the current Vista Cargo ramp and where between where the infield terminal currently is and 23/5.

Does YYZ really require a 6th r/way? Aren't the current 5 enough?

I always thought that the space at the far north-eastern end of the airport would be usable in future for a new terminal complex....could be linked to T1 and T3 by underground tunnels.....  
 
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golfradio
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:40 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 3):
Runway 6 is planned to go the otherside of the existing 23/5, lined up into the current Vista Cargo ramp and where between where the infield terminal currently is and 23/5.

I thought the plan was to designate existing 05 as 05L add a new runway 05R - 23L adjacent to it. 06L and 06R were to remain as is.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
yyzala
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:07 pm

pnwtraveler, do you have any pictures showing current to projected plans that you just described?
 
pnwtraveler
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:42 pm

With the exception of the old Boeing plant land and Reduced parking facility, it was all in the long range plans that were posted on the GTAA website. Location of additional piers in Term 1 and 6th Runway were shown. I don't know if they are still there or not. Someone may have them archived but not me.
 
briboy
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:08 am

Here is a screen capture from the official plan:

next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
 
kl692
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:09 am

I don't see YYZ being a busy airport so there is no point of bulding another runway. They haven't even crack the 30 since 2006 as the busiest airport in terms of volume. Take LHR as an example, they only got two and they are in the top 5. So it will be just waste of money and time for them to build another runway
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
YYZRWY23
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:44 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 10):
They haven't even crack the 30 since 2006 as the busiest airport in terms of volume.

Irrelevant, YYZ has a lot of frequency. In 2010, YYZ was the 18th busiest in the world in aircraft movements, up 2.6% from 2009. JFK, who is ranked #21, had over 46.5 million passengers. More large aircraft, carrying more passengers. YYZ gets a lot of RJ's and props.

YYZRWY23
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cx828
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:52 am

Even both LHR and HKG only have two runways and they are both within top 12 in the world. Does YYZ really need 6 runways though??
 
briboy
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 am

Quoting cx828 (Reply 12):

Even both LHR and HKG only have two runways and they are both within top 12 in the world. Does YYZ really need 6 runways though??

No one is suggesting that the sixth runway will be built tomorrow. What you are seeing above is the maximum buildout of YYZ.

As well, while it does have five runways, operationally YYZ uses the three east-west runways *or* the two north-south runways. Think of it as a three runway airport with the option of a two runway airport, with the paired east-west runway running a pair. What I mean is that because of how close they are together, 24R/L | 6R/L operate with one as landing, the other as take-off. They are not used for simultaneous take-off/landing operations, limiting capacity.

LHR (~454K movements in 2010) is unique in how much metal they push through. It is operating at capacity all day long, with often long holds waiting to get in. Not ideal at all. Just look at the cost of a slot at LHR.

FRA (~464K), for example, is building a fourth runway. DTW (~453K) has a 4 runway system, with two crosswind runways.

AMS (~402K), which has about the same number of movements as YYZ (~418K), has three widely spaced runways, with two crosswind runways (+GA runway).

HKG (~288K, 2009) is not nearly as busy as YYZ in flight movements, so cannot be used as comparison.

-Brian
next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
 
brilondon
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Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:13 pm

Quoting kl692 (Reply 10):
I don't see YYZ being a busy airport so there is no point of bulding another runway. They haven't even crack the 30 since 2006 as the busiest airport in terms of volume. Take LHR as an example, they only got two and they are in the top 5. So it will be just waste of money and time for them to build another runway

Yeah, well LHR is quite congested and they are right now fighting for a third runway which has been well documented on these boards for sometime now. It should also be noted that a large percentage of flights to YYZ are on smaller aircraft and what doesn't show up is the movements which was mentioned in one of the above posts.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
kl692
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:35 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 14):
Yeah, well LHR is quite congested and they are right now fighting for a third runway which has been well documented on these boards for sometime now. It should also be noted that a large percentage of flights to yyz are on smaller aircraft and what doesn't show up is the movements which was mentioned in one of the above posts.

With LHR needed another runway is very understanding, I was there last year and we were in line for about 30 mins waiting for take off and we were even put to holding pattern before we landed. As for YYZ, if most of their A/C moment is small A/C then why why why. the sad part of this is if they decided to built a new runway guess who havhe to pay for it? the Tax-payers.

Come to think about it, mabye that construction is for that new rail system they are going to built.
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
briboy
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:14 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 15):
the sad part of this is if they decided to built a new runway guess who havhe to pay for it? the Tax-payers.

No. Airport improvements at major airports in Canada are paid for by airport users.
next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
 
gmonney
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:15 pm

How about the fact that with YKZ (Buttonville) set to close in the years to come, there will be the need to house some of those aircrafts. I am not sure where they are going to move the ga aircraft, pickering always comes up, but nothing has started.

G
Drive it like you stole it!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:22 pm

Quoting gmonney (Reply 17):
How about the fact that with YKZ (Buttonville) set to close in the years to come, there will be the need to house some of those aircrafts. I am not sure where they are going to move the ga aircraft, pickering always comes up, but nothing has started.

Grant, I thought Markham had plans for another gen aviation field further out when/if YKZ closes?

Be sad if YKZ closes.....I hate to see airport infrastructure shut down (unless it's useless, like Mirabel was/is).
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gmonney
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:36 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 18):
Grant, I thought Markham had plans for another gen aviation field further out when/if YKZ closes?

From what I know "N", which isn't a lot, I don't think the GTAA owns any land, I would love to be updated. The "markham" airport is a small GA strip that really isn't designed to replace buttonville, I would be ok for some GA stuff, its not controlled, and really doesn't have the developed space yet. Buttonville is perfect, Location, Location, Location. I do recall something further north talked about, however getting zoning for an airport might be difficult, look at the pickering crap still posted, all residents in Claremont still have the no airport signs up.

From what I just read, nothing is in the works other than Pickering, should be interesting!

G
Drive it like you stole it!
 
Bravo1Six
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:14 am

Quoting gmonney (Reply 19):
From what I know "N", which isn't a lot, I don't think the GTAA owns any land, I would love to be updated. The "markham" airport is a small GA strip that really isn't designed to replace buttonville, I would be ok for some GA stuff, its not controlled, and really doesn't have the developed space yet.

Markham (CNU8) would need significant upgrades to be able to handle more aircraft than it currently does. There is only one 1800' runway (09/27) with no taxiways, so everyone needs to backtrack. The result is that the circuit can really only handle 3 or 4 aircraft at any time, and there isn't enough space at the moment for holding/run ups (plenty of space on the grass, but not a lot of asphalt).

But it's a great place to have as a "home" airport.
 
C-GRYK
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:14 am

Grant, Neil,

Been years since I´ve posted on here. I hope you are both doing well after all this time. Anyhow, CYKZ is definitely closing, having been sold to I believe Cadillac Fairview for redevelopment a couple of years ago. While I was working at CYOO, in the last year rumour had it that Seneca was relocating there (sources familiar with the situation have actually confirmed that) and Toronto Airways was looking at CYPQ for their operation. Apparantly Magna and Flightexec are headed to CYYZ so that pretty much leaves CDN Helicopters, the private owners and maintenance organizations to scatter throughout the GTA.

As convienient as location as CYKZ is, unfortunately, it´s days are definitely numbered. Shame as that is where I learned my craft and also have memories as a child of going to watch planes come and go in the mid to late eighties.

Look for all the smaller airports around the GTA as far out as Barrie, Peterborough, St Catherines and Kitchener to recieve some of that CYKZ spillover.

Take care,
Jeremy
Think before you type!
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:41 pm

Quoting kl692 (Reply 10):
I don't see
Quoting cx828 (Reply 12):
Even both LHR and HKG only have two runways and they are both within top 12 in the world

Airport passenger numbers have nothing to do with ruway utilization rates. You need to look at aircraft movements. As mentioned above by YYZRWY23 and briboy, HKG, because it handles more movements than HKG. It also needs more runway than LHR, because even though they both handle similar aircraft movements, LHR ever will.

Besides, If LHR could get 4 parallels, it would. unfortunately it cant even get 3. so not an accurate comparison. LHR cannot be compared to any other airport in the world.

Just because LGW (the busiest single rwy airport in the world) handles 240,500 movements and 31.3 million passengers with one runway, doesnt mean that any airport with two runway or more which handles the same numbers is wasting a runway.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2011-09-04 10:47:18]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:47 pm

Damn i hate the edit function on here...

The following is the full first paragraph of my previous post (right above).

Airport passenger numbers have nothing to do with ruway utilization rates. You need to look at aircraft movements. As mentioned above by YYZRWY23 and briboy, YYZ needs more runways than HKG, because it handles more movements than HKG. It also needs more runway than LHR, because even though they both handle similar aircraft movements, YYZ handles much more CRJ, ERJ and DH8 traffic than LHR ever will.

thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
kl692
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:18 pm

I know this is old topic but I just wanted to add this: As runway 23 and 33L was out of service this weekend, I saw YYZ using runway 06L departing and 06R arrival so well just like the way LHR uses both their runways and this really makes me wondering why they even have 23. I can understand 33L and 33R due to wind direction.
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
N1120A
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 4):
This will be space for future arms of Terminal 1.

Hopefully not more tin buildings.

Quoting kl692 (Reply 10):

I don't see YYZ being a busy airport so there is no point of bulding another runway. They haven't even crack the 30 since 2006 as the busiest airport in terms of volume.

YYZ is very busy, as others have said.

Quoting briboy (Reply 16):
No. Airport improvements at major airports in Canada are paid for by airport users.

Which is why their equivalent of a PFC is $20 instead of $2.50-$5.00

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 18):
Be sad if YKZ closes.....I hate to see airport infrastructure shut down (unless it's useless, like Mirabel was/is).

I agree, though YMX would have been useful if they had actually gone ahead with the entire plan and connected it at high speed with Montreal (and eventually Ottawa) and actually is useful as a cargo port. Seriously though, airport infrastructure is insane to remove, unless you have tons of space and money to invest in getting people to that space.

Quoting C-GRYK (Reply 21):
Look for all the smaller airports around the GTA as far out as Barrie, Peterborough, St Catherines and Kitchener to recieve some of that CYKZ spillover.

Guelph (CNC4) and YTZ will be in on that as well.

Quoting kl692 (Reply 24):
I saw YYZ using runway 06L departing and 06R arrival so well just like the way LHR uses both their runways and this really makes me wondering why they even have 23

05/23 is the longest runway at YYZ and has more than 2000' on 06R/24L and 1500' on 06L/24R. Good luck with that loaded EK A380 on 6R/L.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
madviking
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:57 pm

Has anyone pondered on Downsview to take the General Aviation overspill when YKZ shuts down? Something like a Teterboro. Close to main highways, 7000' runway that's greatly underused, and quite a bit of space on the NW area of the airport to build a GA terminal. I've also wondered why a Porter type operation using RJ's to YUL etc. with a TTC link directly to the airport hasn't been considered by some tycoon like Deluc? Imagine having a subway link directly to the airport and close to the centre of town. Traffic would be a mess but almost all of the GTA is a gridlock so another wrench in the chaos wouldn't hurt!

Any takers????????

Cyrus
 
YXD172
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:53 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 24):
I know this is old topic but I just wanted to add this: As runway 23 and 33L was out of service this weekend, I saw YYZ using runway 06L departing and 06R arrival so well just like the way LHR uses both their runways and this really makes me wondering why they even have 23. I can understand 33L and 33R due to wind direction.


Another factor is snow clearing in the winter. Since they have 3 parallel runways for the predominant winds, they can clear one runway and still maintain the other two active (if they're using 23/24R/L), which like you said is really all they need for normal operations.
Radial engines don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory!
 
madviking
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:20 am

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 4):
In addition there is the infield terminal that was designed to be converted to cargo.



What if an underground rail link tunnel can be built connecting the infield TML with both T1 and T3? Sort of an overflow facility that may be used by any carrier if gate availability in not open or say for Turkish or Ethiad who land, park at a gate, then have to be towed off to a remote stand, then be towed back for their late evening departures, to use Infield for arrival and the offload and stay there until being towed to a T1 gate at night? It would immediately give both T1 and T3 extra need capacity when needed.

Cyrus
 
tribird1011
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:08 pm

RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:08 am

Quoting madviking (Reply 28):
What if an underground rail link tunnel can be built connecting the infield TML with both T1 and T3?

No need for a rail link. There already is a road tunnel that connects the IFT to both T3 and T1. When T1 (T New at the time) was being built, T1 (old) was used for the checking in of passengers, but not boarding. Boarding was done at the infield terminal, and passengers were bussed over. It got the job done, but was very inconvenient.

Quoting madviking (Reply 28):
Sort of an overflow facility that may be used by any carrier if gate availability in not open or say for Turkish or Ethiad who land, park at a gate, then have to be towed off to a remote stand, then be towed back for their late evening departures, to use Infield for arrival and the offload and stay there until being towed to a T1 gate at night? It would immediately give both T1 and T3 extra need capacity when needed.

It's much easier to tow an airplane off the gate, and then tow it back on later on, than it is to offload it at the IFT (with all associated inconveniences) and then have to tow it to the terminal later anyway.
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:55 pm

Quoting madviking (Reply 26):
Has anyone pondered on Downsview to take the General Aviation overspill when YKZ shuts down? Something like a Teterboro. Close to main highways, 7000' runway that's greatly underused, and quite a bit of space on the NW area of the airport to build a GA terminal. I've also wondered why a Porter type operation using RJ's to YUL etc. with a TTC link directly to the airport hasn't been considered by some tycoon like Deluc? Imagine having a subway link directly to the airport and close to the centre of town. Traffic would be a mess but almost all of the GTA is a gridlock so another wrench in the chaos wouldn't hurt!

Any takers????????

Cyrus

The airport is being surrounded by Condos and new housing. The Subway extension underway to York University has guaranteed this area will intensify with development. If the proposed park also finalizes there will be very little land left. It is conceiveable in the future if land development in the area maxes out, and values increase, at some point it might make financial sense for Bombardier to sell and move the Business Jet and Q400 work elsewhere.
 
kl692
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:46 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
05/23 is the longest runway at YYZ and has more than 2000' on 06R/24L and 1500' on 06L/24R. Good luck with that loaded EK A380 on 6R/L.

The A380 can land on 06R/24L left any given day as I have seen it a few times. it's prefer runway is 23 but 24L can handle that bad boy.
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
briboy
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 1:47 am

RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:09 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 31):
The A380 can land on 06R/24L left any given day as I have seen it a few times. it's prefer runway is 23 but 24L can handle that bad boy.

One assumes he is talking about taking off, not landing.

I suggest if anyone is wondering about this topic that they review the YYZ master plan, which is linked near the start of this thread. It shows current and projected aircraft movements, and how different weather conditions affect throughput. Once you have read and digested what you have read, do come back to talk about it.
next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
 
madviking
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:37 am

RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 29):
No need for a rail link. There already is a road tunnel that connects the IFT to both T3 and T1.




Yes I know of the busing and was there when the operation was in progress.

Inconvenient indeed. That's exactly why an underground rail link similar to SEA would make things simpler without having to step outside or the burden of several buses and drivers. The IFT could be used by any carrier if the link would be connected to both T1 and T3. During peak periods or poor weather conditions, arriving aircraft would have an alternative spot, verses parking idle at a given taxiway area until occupied gates become open. Summer peaks, charters, extended turnarounds would all have an alternative, and vital prime gates could be available for the quick turnarounds. The rial link could be activated at a moments notice, instead of calling bus drivers, or getting buses ready in winter. And BTW, JFK used hard stands for arriving heavy's, back in the day, and did the offload at the remote stand, then towed the aircraft to the IAB, for departure an hour or so before takeoff time. The YYZ IFT could be used as that, or simply an "overflow" facility. The rail link would alleviate the overheads of having to man an expensive people moving operation.

It's a good little building, almost ready for use, in turn key condition, if not for the hassle of moving a few hundred people at a time to the main terminals. The facility can handle RJs to widebodies, and is centrally located, easy access to CDF and runways. The capital expense to build the underground link could be compensated overtime by allowing usage to all carriers serving YYZ, as arriving and departing passengers from either terminals could be rail linked to it.
 
briboy
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RE: Construction At YYZ (Toronto)

Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:59 pm

T-1 is set up for two more piers to be added. Why have a train if you can just walk?

next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK

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