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realsim
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AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:07 pm

Hi all,

Just surfing on AA's website, and I found this renewed fleet page: http://www.aa.com/i18n/aboutUs/ourPl...nes.jsp?anchorEvent=false&from=Nav

As you can see, as future aircraft, the Boeing 787, A321 and A319 are listed, but not the A320. I don't know why they list the 77W inside the generic "Boeing 777" page, but they differenciate between the A319 and A321, instead of just naming it A320 family. But this should be a "confirmation" that all the first orders will be A319 and A321. My question is the NEO will include any A320 or not. In my opinion, they should, because then they would be able to switch from A319 to A320 or from the A320 to A321 depending of the capacity needed on each flight. If they only have the A319 and the A321, the change will be much bigger and, I suppose, uneconomic.

Also, the 737 is listed as 737-800, so maybe we shouldn't expect any 737 or 739 within the first order. I know it's only their website, and that it could be updated soon, but anyway, I though it was interesting to see these details.
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:34 pm

This is what I've always said. The 738 is the sweet spot of that product line, with the A319 and A321 being the sweet spot of the A320 family.

It makes sense to operate those frames in that fashion.

NS
 
tommy767
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:45 pm

I can't wait to see what routes get the A321 and A319. Bummer about no A320 though.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
washingtonian
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
The 738 is the sweet spot of that product line, with the A319 and A321 being the sweet spot of the A320 family.

{Checkmark} American will get the best of both worlds.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 2):
I can't wait to see what routes get the A321 and A319.

I imagine the A-319 will replace a lot of the MD-80s out of DFW and ORD, and that MIA will continue to see 738s and A-321s that replace the 757s. Of course A-321s on a lot of trancon flights too.
 
AA787
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:52 pm

The 77W is listed once you click on 777.
 
aajfksjubklyn
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 3):
Of course A-321s on a lot of trancon flights too

Not true based on the THOUSANDS of emails and letters of OBJECTIONS AA has received from their fliers on these routes. The JFK-SFO/LAX route is not finalized contrary to the press release (which is why every Tom, Dick and Harry complained when they heard they would go single aisle on these routes). The 767-200's will be around for some time on this route - there are only 15 of them. I will dig their response letter to me.
 
miaskies
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:59 pm

I swear AA needs a new marketing team. They have an ATR-42 picture for the main ATR-72 image, they can't even upload a new picture of a 738 or 757 with winglets for their main images and they have a picture of an ERJ-135 that is hardly flown for the ERJ main picture.
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seabosdca
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:03 pm

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 5):
Not true based on the THOUSANDS of emails and letters of OBJECTIONS AA has received from their fliers on these routes. The JFK-SFO/LAX route is not finalized contrary to the press release (which is why every Tom, Dick and Harry complained when they heard they would go single aisle on these routes). The 767-200's will be around for some time on this route - there are only 15 of them. I will dig their response letter to me.

Sorry, but the 767-200 is just not a competitive product, especially without SAG/AFTRA paying for those first class seats. One of two things will happen on these routes: either 1) they will go 752/A321, or 2) once the 787s are in service, some 763s will be converted to two-class. I think 1) is far more likely.
 
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 5):
The 767-200's will be around for some time on this route - there are only 15 of them. I will dig their response letter to me.

The B762ER's will be one of the first to leave the fleet. They have the highest cycles and have a poor CASM with AA's layout.
"Up the Irons!"
 
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:07 pm

Quoting realsim (Thread starter):
the Boeing 787, A321 and A319 are listed, but not the A320.

....and the people who think AA and B6 are going to merge (which I am NOT one of them) will post about how B6's A320's will fill that need in 3....2.....

  
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:07 pm

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 5):
Not true based on the THOUSANDS of emails and letters of OBJECTIONS AA has received from their fliers on these routes

Perhaps they could turn to one of the other widebody services?

Wait.

NS
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:30 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
They have the highest cycles and have a poor CASM with AA's layout.

Any airplane has a poor CASM in that layout. UA's PS 752s also have a poor CASM.
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SASMD82
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:40 pm

Regarding flexibility, I think it would be wise to add the A320 too. AA will be able to make - let's say - ORD (and all other airports) all B737-800/900 and MIA and DFW all A32X.

Why should AA only select the A319 and A321?
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:47 pm

They're not ordering 737-900s. Only 737-800s.

NS
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:49 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 12):
Regarding flexibility, I think it would be wise to add the A320 too. AA will be able to make - let's say - ORD (and all other airports) all B737-800/900 and MIA and DFW all A32X.

Why should AA only select the A319 and A321?

I'm not clear on why they "need" the A320 if they have the 738 to fill that role? I don't think it matters a lot if specific routes are flown with equipment from multiple OEM's - it's done on numerous routes every day. Were the fleet of 737NG's to be small, I could see keeping them confined to one or two main hubs, but with both the A and B narrowbody fleets destined to number in the hundreds, I don't think it will matter.

-Dave
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SASMD82
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 14):
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 12):
Regarding flexibility, I think it would be wise to add the A320 too. AA will be able to make - let's say - ORD (and all other airports) all B737-800/900 and MIA and DFW all A32X.

Why should AA only select the A319 and A321?

I'm not clear on why they "need" the A320 if they have the 738 to fill that role? I don't think it matters a lot if specific routes are flown with equipment from multiple OEM's - it's done on numerous routes every day. Were the fleet of 737NG's to be small, I could see keeping them confined to one or two main hubs, but with both the A and B narrowbody fleets destined to number in the hundreds, I don't think it will matter.

-Dave

Hi Dave,

I did not really make my point: will AA select the containerised A320s? In that case, my point does make sense. If they opt for the version without containers, you can exchange your fleet whatever you want.

Regards,
Friso
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:59 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 15):
will AA select the containerised A320s?

When no other US operator has (and, indeed, I don't believe any operator in the Western Hemisphere has), why would they?
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Western727
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:59 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 15):
containerised A320s?

Forgive me, but what are containerized 320s vs. 320s without containers?
Jack @ AUS
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:03 pm

The cargo area of an A320 can accomodate cargo containers, if ordered that way.

NS
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:14 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
Sorry, but the 767-200 is just not a competitive product, especially without SAG/AFTRA paying for those first class seats. One of two things will happen on these routes: either 1) they will go 752/A321, or 2) once the 787s are in service, some 763s will be converted to two-class. I think 1) is far more likely.

Too much is made about the SAG contract. Trust me, the real stars are still flying in First, which is why AA - which has the contracts for Fox, CBS, NBCUniversal, WME2, Sony and Dreamworks, among others - will continue with F. AA very quickly corrected the original statement with regards to using A321s trans-con and mentioned no decision had been made, and that the 763 or 787 might go trans-con.

IMO, the 763 will have a small 3-class sub-fleet to replace the 762.
a.
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:25 pm

They also said they'd have a 3 class sub fleet of A321s, I thought.

NS
 
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seabosdca
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 13):
They're not ordering 737-900s. Only 737-800s.

This seems very likely, but have you heard it for certain? To my knowledge, they haven't disclosed the specifics of their 737 order (even indirectly).

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):
IMO, the 763 will have a small 3-class sub-fleet to replace the 762.

I have a hard time seeing how 763s run transcon will be competitive with DL's and UA's internationally configured and p.s. 752s. They'll just cost more per seat to run, where a 3-class or premium 2-class A321 could actually give AA a cost advantage.

[Edited 2011-09-08 13:38:28]
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:40 pm

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 5):
Not true based on the THOUSANDS of emails and letters of OBJECTIONS AA has received from their fliers on these routes
Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 5):
which is why every Tom, Dick and Harry complained when they heard they would go single aisle on these routes). The 767-200's will be around for some time on this route - there are only 15 of them. I will dig their response letter to me.

Is the THOUSANDS your words or AAs?

I can't believe that most people in the entertainment biz care which is alot of the premium cabins on the LAX-JFK route care if its a single isle or double isle aircraft if the seat is better and newer. Thousands seems hard to believe and certainly the vast majority of the customers don't even know yet! lets be realistic here please the vast majority of AA business and first class cabin on JFK-LAX have never even heard of a.net or read aviation news they dont even know yet and i doubt most will care. Switching to a narrow body i doubt will loose AA much business at all heck most of the cabin probably doesn't even know what type of plane they are on now! United P.S. does pretty well as a narrow body and AA has alot of contracts to force people to fly them on JFK-LAX/SFO. I would also say the majority don't have a choice since contracts such as my company has force me to fly one airline on that route for business class i cant decide which airline and alot of people on this route are in the exact same boat!
 
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:02 pm

Quoting cubsrule (Reply 16):
When no other US operator has (and, indeed, I don't believe any operator in the Western Hemisphere has), why would they?

AC has containers in most if not all of their 320s and 321s. The 319s do not have it because they wanted the best range they could get with those planes so they could do flights such as YVR-YHZ (at the time) etc... AC's 319s do some fairly long flights.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 17):
Forgive me, but what are containerized 320s vs. 320s without containers?

Containerized planes are equipped with floors which can accommodate those bins you see many larger aircraft carry. This way the ramp staff can load the bags into a bin and when ready just put the bin on the aircraft. Without this feature the bags have to be loaded individually like a 737. It is a great system but it also weighs a fair bit so it's a trade off. In the Airbus narrow bodies you have a choice unlike either Boeing or Embraer.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
aajfksjubklyn
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:07 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 22):
Is the THOUSANDS your words or AAs?

Thousands was in the response I received. Not made up.

You would be surprised how many people read on here without being members. As an extremely fequent flier on AA, more than I wish to admit, because of both a personal preference but also one in which it is my companies preferred airline. Employees influence the decisions on airlines that companies choose. We are often asked internally what our preference is, and are given internal survey's about the preferred airline. So someone like me, in which I know personally there are many in my company, and the multitude of Exec Plat's I am oftern paired with in sitting next to me, indicate they love the dual-aisle comfort of the 762 on transcons.

Here is the letter:

Dear Mr. *********:


Thank you for your comments regarding our fleet renewal plan.

The scope of this aircraft order -- the largest in aviation history -- required that American partner with both Boeing and Airbus. In addition to the Airbus order, we have announced plans to acquire an additional 200 Boeing 737 aircraft. This order is in addition to the 84 previously ordered 737s that began entering our fleet in 2009, as well as 42 Boeing Dreamliners and 8 Boeing 777-300ERs scheduled for delivery in the coming years.

There have been no decisions made regarding the routing of the aircraft at this time. We have received well over one thousand emails on this press release, from both personal and business fliers alike. We realize the preference our customers have given us on our flagship transcontinental routes over the past 50 years. I have forwarded your comments to the appropriate management for internal review. As one of our most frequent fliers, we will ensure your message is considered.

Mr. XXXXXXX, thank you again for sharing your comments. We look forward to soon serving our customers with one of the youngest fleets in the U.S. airline industry.

Sincerely,

Ms. XXXXXX
Customer Relations
American Airlines
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:08 pm

Quoting cubsrule (Reply 16):
When no other US operator has (and, indeed, I don't believe any operator in the Western Hemisphere has), why would they?

British Airways has containerised A319s/320s/321s. They were all converted in readiness for the move to T5 and has made baggage loading and unloading easier and faster. The speed of bags to baggage hall on arrival in T5 is now very fast. Containers are also less labour intensive than non-containerised aircraft and customers' baggages are more protected when it rains.
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:08 pm

On the press release. Not necessarily specifically about this topic.

They can't keep those 762s.

NS
 
thrufru
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:23 pm

Well, maybe now we can also put to rest any speculation about AA having to come up with a new livery. Looks like they're just gonna paint the composite fuselages grey.
 
kaitak744
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:40 pm

On the Airbus order spreadsheet, they list only 130 A321s, and no A319s. I am guessing the order for 130 NEOs has not been firmed yet.

So, question is, what will be the breakdown of A321 vs. A319, and which ones will be NEO or original?
 
commavia
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:51 pm

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 24):
There have been no decisions made regarding the routing of the aircraft at this time. We have received well over one thousand emails on this press release, from both personal and business fliers alike.

Thus, a Customer Relations form letter that clearly stated that thousands of emails have been received about the press release, not necessarily specifically about the premium transcons.

I, personally, still expect AA will probably - ultimately, long-term - go with narrowbodies for JFK-LAX/SFO, as I agree with others that if the seats are new and nice, the cabins fresh, and (hopefully) the IFE modern, and of course if the price is "right" (depending on who the customer is), the vast majority of people - including high-paying premium customers - won't care whether the plane has one aisle or two.

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 28):
On the Airbus order spreadsheet, they list only 130 A321s, and no A319s. I am guessing the order for 130 NEOs has not been firmed yet.

  

I doubt AA and Airbus know for sure what the breakdown will look like today - and they don't have to know for months.

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 28):
So, question is, what will be the breakdown of A321 vs. A319, and which ones will be NEO or original?

This first tranche of 130 will all be non-neo. The next 130 will be neo.
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 28):
On the Airbus order spreadsheet, they list only 130 A321s, and no A319s. I am guessing the order for 130 NEOs has not been firmed yet.

That's actually not right. That is the order for 130 A321neos.

The OEOs are all to be leased in, and will show up as delivered to a lessor.

NS
 
ckfred
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 3):
I imagine the A-319 will replace a lot of the MD-80s out of DFW and ORD, and that MIA will continue to see 738s and A-321s that replace the 757s. Of course A-321s on a lot of trancon flights too.

I would suspect that some of the MD-80s at ORD and DFW would be replaced by 738s, while some routes that are Eagle could shift over to mainline flying A319s, depending on the number of flights and seats.

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 5):
Not true based on the THOUSANDS of emails and letters of OBJECTIONS AA has received from their fliers on these routes. The JFK-SFO/LAX route is not finalized contrary to the press release (which is why every Tom, Dick and Harry complained when they heard they would go single aisle on these routes). The 767-200's will be around for some time on this route - there are only 15 of them. I will dig their response letter to me.
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):
IMO, the 763 will have a small 3-class sub-fleet to replace the 762.

Here's why having a subfleet of 3-class 763s make sense. There are some routes which have both 777 and 763s flying. ORD-LHR comes to mind. Now, it seems that with BA having nothing but 3-class widebodies on the route, and several 777s on the route, that 763 is probably somewhat hard to sell.

With a subfleet of 3-class 763s, these planes can rotate between trans-cons and international routes.
 
commavia
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:58 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 31):
I would suspect that some of the MD-80s at ORD and DFW would be replaced by 738s, while some routes that are Eagle could shift over to mainline flying A319s, depending on the number of flights and seats.


I suspect any A319s would be heavily centered in ORD where they could be used to perhaps decrease capacity but maintain frequency in competitive premium Northeast markets, and/or bring some mixed AA/Eagle mainline/RJ markets from ORD to the Northeast back up to all-mainline (EWR, PHL, maybe even ATL) albeit with slightly lower frequency. Beyond that, there are also definitely some shorter markets out of DFW where an A319 is probably more appropriate than an MD80 (some of the old Fokker markets like HSV, BHM, ATL, SDF, etc. come to mind). And, finally, I hope that AA can use some A319s to perhaps re-enter some markets dropped over the last few years where I think AA should still have a presence of some kind or another - 2x daily BOS-SFO is the glaring example that immediately comes to mind.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 31):
Here's why having a subfleet of 3-class 763s make sense. There are some routes which have both 777 and 763s flying. ORD-LHR comes to mind. Now, it seems that with BA having nothing but 3-class widebodies on the route, and several 777s on the route, that 763 is probably somewhat hard to sell.

With a subfleet of 3-class 763s, these planes can rotate between trans-cons and international routes.

Perhaps, although I'm not sure if AA wants to get back into the 3-class 767 international business. (For that matter, we'll probably see in the coming months if and/or how AA wants to proceed with 3-class international at all.) Either way, while I agree that 3-class 767s might be valuable in a few select international markets that today can only get a 3-class 777 or 2-class 767, I'm not sure if there are enough of those markets to support 3-class 767s year-round to make it economically viable.

Not to mention that putting 3-class 763s on transcons would add a lot of capacity, which is sort of the opposite of what it seems AA may want to do (for reasonable reasons) in general these days. They could perhaps pare back frequency, but that, too, seems to go against AA's instincts, which are generally strong frequencies in competitive and/or premium-heavy markets, of which JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO are certainly both.

I used to think 3-class 763s would be AA's preferred long-term JFK-LAX/SFO solution, but given the market dynamics these days, the competitive landscape, and AA's current position, I'm not so sure anymore. AA may well end up following the United p.s. model (i.e., the model United is now moving away from) on JFK-LAX/SFO: essentially maintain the current levels of both F and C seats, and just drastically cut their exposure to the lower-yielding and more competitive Y market.

I do agree with MAH that their probably is still room for a true 3-class premium product in these markets, United's latest move towards 2-class notwithstanding. But, that being said, I don't think you need a widebody to offer it.
 
ikramerica
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:35 am

I know people didn't want to believe it, but it was quite obvious/simple.

738s continue to be delivered to replace some MD80s.

A319s replace the rest of the MDs.

A321s replace some 757s. 762 may be replaced by existing 757s (just as the A300 was).

Other aircraft to be determined (NEO/MAX based on need further down the line and ultimate performance of the aircraft).
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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N62NA
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:43 am

Quoting realsim (Thread starter):
My question is the NEO will include any A320 or not. In my opinion, they should, because then they would be able to switch from A319 to A320 or from the A320 to A321 depending of the capacity needed on each flight

That assumes that AA would have spare planes just sitting around. Currently, they don't and I doubt that the cost savings would be so great (in ordering the A320s for swaps) to justify the expense.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 22):
Switching to a narrow body i doubt will loose AA much business at all heck most of the cabin probably doesn't even know what type of plane they are on now!

Well, people might switch to TWA and their L1011s and 747s on JFK-LAX/SFO... Oh wait, that was 30 years ago.
 
incitatus
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:51 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):
Too much is made about the SAG contract. Trust me, the real stars are still flying in First, which is why AA - which has the contracts for Fox, CBS, NBCUniversal, WME2, Sony and Dreamworks, among others - will continue with F.

Trust me, the real stars are not flying AA. The aspiring real stars fly on chartered or fractional business jets. The real ones have their own jets. Why is it that the mass of unwashed insists on the idea that the rich fly first class? First class is a product for the affluent mass or for upper management.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
jmc1975
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:53 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
The 738 is the sweet spot of that product line, with the A319 and A321 being the sweet spot of the A320 family.

It makes sense to operate those frames in that fashion.

Except it has the potential to be an operational nightmare, should an aircraft swap take place that requires an up-gauge or down-gauge. The 319/738/321 fleet mix greatly reduces their flexibility in terms of aircraft routing and crew scheduling. This is a complication that rivals like US would not be faced with given the continuity of their 319/320/321 fleet. AA is not setting themselves up for an optimal future, unfortunately.
.......
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:59 am

I don't disagree with that at all.

But I don't see there being a great way to fix it without having a relatively even split of 73G/738/739 and ALSO 319/320/321s, and then have them confined to their bases.

NS
 
ikramerica
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:02 am

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 36):

Hardly. How does going from three pilot groups 738/md80/757 to two pilot groups reduce flexibility?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
commavia
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:02 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 35):
Trust me, the real stars are not flying AA.

Trust me - plenty of them are. Even most major celebrities (and especially the allegedly eco-conscious ones) don't charter their own private jets most of the time. Commercial is just so much more economical (after all - those beach houses in Malibu and villas in Italy don't pay for themselves).

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 36):
Except it has the potential to be an operational nightmare

"Operational nightmare?" Hardly. The massive savings in fuel and maintenance from these new planes will easily outweigh any potential alleged flexibility penalty from having two fleet types. But, alas, let us not forget that these two fleet types will be in the place of what today is four fleet types - so, really, this is double the "flexibility" of what they have now.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 36):
should an aircraft swap take place that requires an up-gauge or down-gauge. The 319/738/321 fleet mix greatly reduces their flexibility in terms of aircraft routing and crew scheduling.

Again, this is still a dramatic improvement in operational flexibility versus what exists today. Today, swaps could theoretically occur between four entirely distinct aircraft types - MD80, 737, 757 and 767-200ER - ranging in capacity from 140 to 190 seats. In the future, this entire capacity range, and all of these missions, will be accomplished with near-entirely-common variants of only two fleet types - the 737 and A320.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 36):
This is a complication that rivals like US would not be faced with given the continuity of their 319/320/321 fleet.

Actually, it's a "complication" that every one of AA's rivals has long had, currently has, and will continue to have - probably further into the future than AA. AA's domestic/narrowbody fleet is already, based on number of fleet and sub-fleet types, the least complex among the big three U.S. carriers. It is about to get even further simplified.
 
kaitak744
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:14 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 30):
That's actually not right. That is the order for 130 A321neos.

The OEOs are all to be leased in, and will show up as delivered to a lessor.

That is VERY interesting. Does anyone know what the lease duration is for the OEOs? I am assuming those will be mostly A319s?

214 MD-80s replaced by -> 151 737-800s and 130 A319s
This leaves 67 new planes for growth.

124 757s replaced by -> 130 A321 NEOs.
roughly 6 aircraft for growth.

and then, 100 737MAX.

These makes a total of 173 narrow-bodies for growth.
Makes me wonder, are the initial leased A32X OEOs meant to stay for long, or are they just a short term replacement until the 737MAX and A321NEOs arrive?
 
kfitz
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:15 am

Quote:
Trust me, the real stars are not flying AA. The aspiring real stars fly on chartered or fractional business jets. The real ones have their own jets. Why is it that the mass of unwashed insists on the idea that the rich fly first class? First class is a product for the affluent mass or for upper management.

I'm not sure what type of experiences you have on these flights, but I personally fly to JFK and back from the west coast at least 2x a month. Mostly SFO, sometimes ill shuttle down to LAX.

Now believe me, I've shared the UA PS F cabin with some "real stars". Just last month my LAX-JFK had Eva Longoria next to me in F. Earlier this year in March, my JFK-LAX F flight was with William Shatner adjascent to me. LAX-JFK 2 months ago with Chelsea Handler. SFO-JFK last November with Sarah Jessica Parker in F. I realize you have no reason to believe me, oh well.

My favorite JFK based PS purser (I know you're reading this :] ) has photos with her and countless hollywood elite and other business, political and entertainment titans/heavyweights. We're talking Chelsea Clinton, Madonna, Danny Glover, Britney Spears, Blake Lively, Barack Obama (2006 era) Carlos Santana, etc. I could go on and on, but suffice to say, there is no shortage of notable names on the transcontinental JFK services.

Certainly many will charter a private jet, but many others will still fly commercial in the premium cabin(s). United Global Services is also tasked with handling VIPs and they do a great job at it, and AA has a similar dedicated team doing the same thing. I know its hard to believe, but those AA 762s share even more Hollywood/business elites than UA does, thanks in part to AA's extensive contracts and strong legacy foothold in the coast to coast LAX/SFO-JFK market.

It should be interesting to see what AA does regarding 2 or 3 cabin service on this route. If they throw whatever their new flagship intl. F suite product turns out to be (from the upcomming 77Ws), or even their new intl. J beds, they could potentially upstage UA, who is going from 38 premium seats (12F/26C) to just 26. Even if the revenue management folks can't justify the 12 F seats on PS, they still do regularly go out nearly full on every flight, so there are going to be at least 10 passengers who would have otherwise upgraded/spent miles to sit in a premium cabin, sitting in UA E+ instead, on every flight mind you throughout tthe daily schedule. 7 flights a day x 10 people x 3 stations = 210 passengers a day who are in coach instead of C/F. That's a rather large reduction in premium seats. Perhaps AA can capitalize off the inevitable frustration from UA's massive reduction.

[Edited 2011-09-08 21:19:05]
 
ikramerica
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:27 am

Quoting kfitz (Reply 41):
Now believe me, I've shared the UA PS F cabin with some "real stars". Just last month my LAX-JFK had Eva Longoria next to me in F. Earlier this year in March, my JFK-LAX F flight was with William Shatner adjascent to me. LAX-JFK 2 months ago with Chelsea Handler. SFO-JFK last November with Sarah Jessica Parker in F. I realize you have no reason to believe me, oh well.

Yep, they fly this route constantly. And then there are the "stars" you'd never recognize but who earn more and are more important than the ones you do, namely the producers and studio executives. They fly both commercial and corporate depending on whether a company jet is available. And top tier directors, producers, line producers, etc. have F travel written into their contract.
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Jack
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:31 am

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 40):
214 MD-80s replaced by -> 151 737-800s and 130 A319s
This leaves 67 new planes for growth.

124 757s replaced by -> 130 A321 NEOs.
roughly 6 aircraft for growth.

and then, 100 737MAX.

It does sound like a lot, especially as they also hold optios on A230oeo and 738NG for delivery before the newer versions.

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 40):
Makes me wonder, are the initial leased A32X OEOs meant to stay for long, or are they just a short term replacement until the 737MAX and A321NEOs arrive?

It is just as likely that the current 738s will be rolled over. Does anyone know how many of the delivered 738s are leased? Didn't they do a sale and lease back just before the new orders were announced?


Also if all oeos are A319s then I doubt, they would replace them with A321neo (all 130 are this version) or 737-8 as they would be too big. They would need A319neo or 737-7 for that to happen.
 
commavia
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:06 am

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 40):
That is VERY interesting. Does anyone know what the lease duration is for the OEOs? I am assuming those will be mostly A319s?

First, it is not entirely clear that this entire first tranche of 130 are A321s - that is the placeholder that was booked by Airbus in its order book, and that may end up being the case, but I tend to doubt it. I suspect there will be some mix, especially considering that many of the A321s will almost certainly be used to replace 757s, and in many cases the A321neo (i.e., would be in the next, neo, tranche after this one) is a more suitable replacement.

Beyond that, it has been reported that the leases on the first 130 Airbus aircraft will be for 10 years, meaning stretching through about 2027. AA has stated that this gives them flexibility to, at that time, replace these aircraft with the new clean-sheet designs Boeing and/or Airbus will certainly be offering by then, if it made sense at that time.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:11 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 35):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):
Too much is made about the SAG contract. Trust me, the real stars are still flying in First, which is why AA - which has the contracts for Fox, CBS, NBCUniversal, WME2, Sony and Dreamworks, among others - will continue with F.

Trust me, the real stars are not flying AA. The aspiring real stars fly on chartered or fractional business jets. The real ones have their own jets. Why is it that the mass of unwashed insists on the idea that the rich fly first class? First class is a product for the affluent mass or for upper management.

No, trust me, as I work with them: they are flying AA, with few exceptions. It has become especially "un-liberal" in a sadly liberal Hollywood to fly a private jet lately, and these days even fewer use private as in the past. Some stars, like P.Diddy, have bragged about switching from private jets to American Airlines.

Even lowly me is guaranteed a first class seat on JFKLAX where I work, and it's mandated I fly AA. I've sat next to many "A list" stars in flights from LAX to JFK, as well as MIA, that most would expect to fly private. Ten years ago, many probably did, but not these days.

There was actually an article in The Hollywood Reporter this week all about this topic, highlighting AA, but also talking about how UA and VX are favorites with celebs, as well.

When the studio pays, they typically fly AA, which dominates studio contracts. But on the rare occasion they pay, they tend to prefer United, with a more comfortable F product (I'm curious to see how this changes, though, because by switching to 2-class, UA is losing the intimacy selling point that celebs love). Music people tend to have a strong preference for AA, especially since they fly LAXMIA just as often as they need to do LAXJFK.

[Edited 2011-09-09 04:24:23]
a.
 
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scbriml
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:38 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
First, it is not entirely clear that this entire first tranche of 130 are A321s - that is the placeholder that was booked by Airbus in its order book, and that may end up being the case, but I tend to doubt it.



In the past where flexibility has been built into a contract from day one, Airbus has typically booked orders as A320, leaving the customer the option of up or down-guaging by one model. It seems to me from the Airbus order book and AA's statements that the booked 130 orders are clearly intended to be A321neos.

If the leased frames are taken on a 10-year basis, that means most, if not all the A321neos would be in the fleet before most of the leases expire. Given the huge number of options that AA has taken, they'd have complete flexibility to decide which model neos to take when the leased frames leave the fleet. To me, it makes perfect sense for AA to take the first 130 neos all as A321s.
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aajfksjubklyn
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 35):
Trust me, the real stars are not flying AA. The aspiring real stars fly on chartered or fractional business jets. The real ones have their own jets. Why is it that the mass of unwashed insists on the idea that the rich fly first class? First class is a product for the affluent mass or for upper management.

This is not entirely true. I have sat with: Jennifer Anniston, Barbara Walters, Simon Cowell, Keanue Reeves, Aerosmith, Cher, Diana Ross, Paul Newman, Donna Sommer, Walter Cronkite, Gerald Ford, Doris Roberts, to name a few all on AA flights. They all dont have the ability to fly their own private airplanes all the time. The rich do fly first class as to exec's and the like from large corporations. AA heavily caters to the RICH, they escort them from their vehicles, hand them boarding passes, sometimes screen them in private, and have special lounges at their cornerstone/hub airports for them to use. The 762 allows the first class galley curtain to be closed to allow them to stay in the galley until the bulk of passengers are seated as well.
 
airbazar
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:20 pm

Quoting realsim (Thread starter):

Also, the 737 is listed as 737-800, so maybe we shouldn't expect any 737 or 739 within the first order. I know it's only their website, and that it could be updated soon, but anyway, I though it was interesting to see these details.

I think it's just an artist impression. The NEO's are also missing and we all know those are coming. If they were to add the A320 it would create an extra line for only one picture. The editor probably didn't like that. Notice how they also didn't list the 763/763 or 772/773 seperately.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
This is what I've always said. The 738 is the sweet spot of that product line, with the A319 and A321 being the sweet spot of the A320 family.

Here's the total orders for the entire A product line. Care to rephrase your comment?
A321: 1100
A320: 5272
A319: 1470
A318: 80
 
commavia
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RE: AA Lists The A319/A321 As Future Aircraft, No A320

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:09 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 46):
In the past where flexibility has been built into a contract from day one, Airbus has typically booked orders as A320, leaving the customer the option of up or down-guaging by one model. It seems to me from the Airbus order book and AA's statements that the booked 130 orders are clearly intended to be A321neos.

If the leased frames are taken on a 10-year basis, that means most, if not all the A321neos would be in the fleet before most of the leases expire. Given the huge number of options that AA has taken, they'd have complete flexibility to decide which model neos to take when the leased frames leave the fleet. To me, it makes perfect sense for AA to take the first 130 neos all as A321s.

No. All of this first tranche of 130 - the ones currently published in the Airbus order book - are existing A320-family aircraft, not neo. These 130 will be delivered between 2013 and 2017, with 10-year leases stretching through 2023-2027. The second tranche, with deliveries beginning in 2018, will be the neo aircraft. And for both the first 130, and the second 130, there has been absolutely no official confirmation yet that I've seen - from AA or Airbus - on the breakdown among variants.

It is completely open at this point - this first 130 could be all A321s but, as I said, I tend to doubt it since I suspect that the larger A321s, and the relatively longer (and thus generally more fuel-intensive) missions they fly on, would in many cases tend to benefit more from the neo. My personal guess is that this first batch of 130 will probably include some mix of A319 and maybe some A320 and/or A321, but that the second (neo) batch will have plenty of A321s.

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 47):
AA heavily caters to the RICH, they escort them from their vehicles, hand them boarding passes, sometimes screen them in private, and have special lounges at their cornerstone/hub airports for them to use. The 762 allows the first class galley curtain to be closed to allow them to stay in the galley until the bulk of passengers are seated as well.

Very true - this is one area in which AA does do fairly well. AA's onboard product in premium cabins tends to be fairly strong, with good food, frequent flights, and competitive cabins. It needs some work - but they're definitely not bad. On the ground, AA does offer a strong and specialized product for premium and VIP passengers - especially in the cornerstone markets and especially in the three U.S. markets where many of this type of "celebrity" passenger tends to congregate (LAX, JFK and MIA).

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