Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Topic Author
Posts: 4529
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:56 pm

http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbu...pay-skyrockets-as-job-cuts-planned
http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...e-sparks-anger-20110907-1jx7b.html
http://www.smh.com.au/business/union...y-packet-to-5m-20110907-1jxwj.html

Alan Joyce is to get a 71% payrise to A$5m+ whilst slashing jobs elsewhere in the company and with a declining share price.
By comparison similar sized airlines pay their CEOs considerably less. For example CX pays $1.4m.
even QFs OW partner AA paid $5.2m (A$4.7m)(which is FAR larger than Qantas)
DL (worlds 2nd biggest airline) paid $8m (A$7.2m)(bigger again than AA)
Overall the total pay packages for the top eight executives increased from $8.9 million to $14.4 million at Qantas Group.
All while presiding or being involved with Qantas losing market share, due to poor network and aircraft decisions.
Meanwhile pilots, crew, groundstaff, engineers etc get cutbacks in staff, more work, and effectively less pay (pay is not keeping up with inflation).
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:00 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Thread starter):
Overall the total pay packages for the top eight executives increased from $8.9 million to $14.4 million at Qantas Group.

That's going to create one hell of a backlash between staff and management...
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2596
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:06 pm

Fire this Ryanair vandal and destroyer of Australian value!! He has done nothing but criticize the business, whilst building a parallel low cost start up in his own image and syphoning off cash from the international business whilst damning it to launch new project. He may well belong in jail! Shameful!
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Adam T.
Posts: 797
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 7:01 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:06 pm

I stopped acting surprised by these type of salary increases a while ago - so this one isn't shocking by any means.

[Edited 2011-09-13 15:14:33]

[Edited 2011-09-13 15:14:55]
 
mffoda
Posts: 1099
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:10 pm

Finally a fair compensation package for a true Aviation pioneer! He doesn't happen to be the CFO as well... does he?  
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
mffoda
Posts: 1099
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:22 pm

Finally a fair compensation package for a true Aviation pioneer! He doesn't happen to be the CFO as well... does he?  

Mods.. Please delete 2nd post. Your system did it!

[Edited 2011-09-13 15:25:27]
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
User avatar
shamrock604
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:36 pm

Another wonderful act of boardroom compensation that will do absolute wonders for the morale of the airline, and assist in achieving the goal of a sustainable Qantas where the burden of change is shared evenly by all......

Not.
 
qf002
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:37 pm

While I can understand the gripes (and I do understand/feel them), Alan Joyce has done a good job. QF Group is turning a decent (albeit not massive) profit, and is focused squarely on the future. If other executives around the world were doing so well coming through the GFC then I'm sure their pay would be increasing as well.

Quoting Zkpilot (Thread starter):
AA paid $5.2m (A$4.7m)(which is FAR larger than Qantas)

Only a couple of years ago, Arpey was earning close to US$8million a year. You'll also find that the salaries of executives other than the CEO are significantly higher at AA than at QF, you can't always look at the CEO in isolation.

Quoting Zkpilot (Thread starter):
DL (worlds 2nd biggest airline) paid $8m (A$7.2m)

In that same period a few years ago, Richard Anderson got US$17.4million.

With both of the American examples, you have to consider the percentage return that QF is making compared with both AA and DL. He is doing a significantly better job than both with keeping QF in the black than both those airlines, and his remuneration is based on how well he does his job.

I totally agree that Joyce getting more pay is ridiculous, but in my view there is a justification for it. He is doing a good job making money in a very tough economic environment, and his contract will allow for bonuses when the business performs well under his leadership. But he should have refused his bonus IMO.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2368
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:14 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 7):
I totally agree that Joyce getting more pay is ridiculous, but in my view there is a justification for it

He may we ll be doing a good job and arguably it is justified but timing is everything and this is going to IMHO create a lot of tension in the ranks. Silly move.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3859
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:27 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 6):
Another wonderful act of boardroom compensation that will do absolute wonders for the morale of the airline, and assist in achieving the goal of a sustainable Qantas where the burden of change is shared evenly by all......

Why should (outside of an airline going bust which QF is no where near) should a union agree and co-operate with management and agree to cuts when the executives are giving themselves bonuses after it is done. It looks like and will be seen as greed from the richest in society. Also this amount could be in the local economy much more effective as money in the pockets of what I would assume is middle class QF employees.

For the sake of image management should take the lead on cuts and getting the employees to follow. Most small businesses follow this plan.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 7):
While I can understand the gripes (and I do understand/feel them), Alan Joyce has done a good job. QF Group is turning a decent (albeit not massive) profit, and is focused squarely on the future. If other executives around the world were doing so well coming through the GFC then I'm sure their pay would be increasing as well.

That might be true, but does he need the money on a relative basis especially when he has cut jobs and got staff to take paycuts. This kind of behavior looks bad and image counts for a lot.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
richcandy
Posts: 751
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:49 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:41 am

Hi

Was any of this pay increase agreed at the time he joined Qantas?

Just wondering if this increase was something that was stated in his contract. (i.e. if you stay with the airline for a set amount of time and the airline makes a profit we will increase your salary to x or by x%)

Alex
 
qf002
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:57 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 9):
That might be true, but does he need the money on a relative basis especially when he has cut jobs and got staff to take paycuts. This kind of behavior looks bad and image counts for a lot.

Does it matter if he 'needs' the money? I doubt that the pilots on $150k+ 'need' a payrise.

Quoting richcandy (Reply 10):
Just wondering if this increase was something that was stated in his contract. (i.e. if you stay with the airline for a set amount of time and the airline makes a profit we will increase your salary to x or by x%)

Some of this may well be stock options which have matured.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2638
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:07 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 9):
Why should (outside of an airline going bust which QF is no where near) should a union agree and co-operate with management and agree to cuts when the executives are giving themselves bonuses after it is done. It looks like and will be seen as greed from the richest in society

You seem to forget it's a company and not some kind of social government program.
 
risingsunfitnes
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:59 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 12):
You seem to forget it's a company and not some kind of social government program.

You are correct, but as stated before by UAL777UK, sometimes timing really is everything. Qantas at the moment are competing with themselves domestically,with their own LLC, have an ever shrinking labour force, and are having to compete ever more on their O/S routes.

I have no problem with exec's getting hansom payments for a job well done, however, and it is only MHO, it seems a bit out of whack.
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:33 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Thread starter):
Alan Joyce is to get a 71% payrise to A$5m whilst slashing jobs
Quoting Zkpilot (Thread starter):
Overall the total pay packages for the top eight executives increased from $8.9 million to $14.4 million at Qantas Group.

Please someone attempt to justify such a pay increase!!! This is just so not humane!!! 1,000+ workers will be out of a job while these exec. pigs get a nice pay increase... This just show's why QF wouldn't offer a 5% pay increase to its hard working work force...

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 1):
That's going to create one hell of a backlash between staff and management...

Totally agree!

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3859
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 12):
You seem to forget it's a company and not some kind of social government program.
Quoting qf002 (Reply 11):
Does it matter if he 'needs' the money? I doubt that the pilots on $150k+ 'need' a payrise.

I never said it was but why does he deserve a raise when you for the same cost could have given staff maybe a 1% less paycut than across the board than they agreed to. Instead if giving the CEO a massive pay increase not just on dollars but a percentage based.

This is more of an image thing than anything else, because the next time QF has to make cuts given these events the unions might be a bit more inclined to flip management the bird.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 14):
Please someone attempt to justify such a pay increase!!! This is just so not humane!!! 1,000+ workers will be out of a job while these exec. pigs get a nice pay increase... This just show's why QF wouldn't offer a 5% pay increase to its hard working work force...

There is none, he should be taking the biggest cut of them all and its not 5-10% its 71% it ends up being A$ 2 million.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:05 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 14):
job while these exec. pigs get a nice pay increase.

If you were offered a raise you would turn it down?   
"Up the Irons!"
 
qf002
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:26 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 15):
why does he deserve a raise when you for the same cost could have given staff maybe a 1% less paycut than across the board than they agreed to. Instead if giving the CEO a massive pay increase not just on dollars but a percentage based.

Wait, you realise that we're talking about $2.5m, maybe $3m here, don't you. Try to distribute that across the entire QF workforce (and to be fair you have to count all subsidiaries, as AJ is QF Group CEO) and you're looking at maybe $20 per employee per year. It's also important to note that pay cuts haven't existed -- simply a lack of pay rises.

It's also important to note that we don't know that this is a pay rise. It is simply how much money he made this year -- the entire increase might well be $2m in stock packages which won't come around again for another 10 years, which means his income from QF will actually drop 71% next year.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
If you were offered a raise you would turn it down?

I think we'd all like to think we would, but like I said we don't know that it was a permanent thing. I'm willing to bet we'll see his income drop dramatically next year, and that this year has been influenced by other factors that are one offs.
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:27 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 14):
job while these exec. pigs get a nice pay increase.

If you were offered a raise you would turn it down?

at the cost of 1000 workers.... NO!!!!!!!!!!

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
qf002
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:36 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 18):
at the cost of 1000 workers.... NO!!!!!!!!!!

You're being so melodramatic. 1000 workers would cost QF at least $60-70 million a year earning an average Australian income, not $2million which is the increase AJ has received. This is also likely a one off thing, and is probably a contractual requirement on the part of the company.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2368
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:00 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
and is probably a contractual requirement on the part of the company.

Which he could have easily declined!
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2638
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:04 pm

I'm gonna go a step further.
AJ and friends are paid according to meeting targets and goals set out by the board. The board must approve
of this, he can't just 'give himself this'.. so to speak.

Now as I said these are to do with meet targets. In theory, if AJ fires every single staff memeber outside
the executive, and then replaces them with a wetleasing arrangement, and meets his goals and targets, he should
get the contractually aggreed wage. We can take it a step further and say AJ stops flying all together, sells all
the aircraft, and invests instead in a biotechnology company in california making biofuels... grossly exceeds the targets set for him by the board (assuming those targets were not directly connected to flying of course) then he should get his money, aircraft or no aircraft, staff or no staff,. And if you guys think that sounds crazy, I suggest you look to a little company in Omaha called Berkshire Hathaway.... and a guy called Warren Buffett who did exactly that in the 1960s with some textile companies.

What I suspect most people are getting outraged here about is the size of executive remuneration. Well, in this global age competing for talent, this is largely the name of the game. Now people will say "why do you possibly need blah blah blah amount $XXX" The answer to that is exactly the same as for any professional. If i have a Doctor... in the country on say $350 000 a year? Why not pay them just a tad above what the nurses get, not 4 or 5 times what the nurses get? Well it's pretty simple. That doctor will leave and go elsewhere and get the money that he is worth 95% of the time and we can't run the entire system on the remaining 5%. Excutives are no different. If you have a problem with the size of their wage, well I beg to say that is just tall poppy syndrome. Are you all outraged when you see sporting stars... like golf for example.. earn way way way more than this when all they're essentially doing his hitting a little ball around a cow paddock? Or when you watch a movie are you outraged that the Actor got paid $30 Million to make the film? the poor makeup artist probably barely made $30 000. The pilots not getting the pay raises they want is irrelevant. I'm sure the supermarket clerks would dream of making what the pilots make. Oh, but they haven't invested the time and skills the pilots have? funny that? Maybe running a multibilliondollar company is something only a small group of the skills and experience to justify allowing them to take that chance... with of course...other people's money.

[Edited 2011-09-14 08:12:30]
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Topic Author
Posts: 4529
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 7):
I totally agree that Joyce getting more pay is ridiculous, but in my view there is a justification for it. He is doing a good job making money in a very tough economic environment, and his contract will allow for bonuses when the business performs well under his leadership. But he should have refused his bonus IMO.

Or is it that the thousands of workers at Qantas are keeping the company profitable (despite AJ constantly trashing the airline and leeching it) whilst he reaps the benefits?

You are forgetting that Qantas is losing market share due to poor management decisions and that the share price has fallen (not by a little either.... over $5 down to about $2 a share!). Oh and BTW Qantas in the recent past has had profits of $1b not to mention CX and SQ both make more profit than QF lately yet their CEOs earn less.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2638
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:26 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 22):
Oh and BTW Qantas in the recent past has had profits of $1b not to mention CX and SQ both make more profit than QF lately yet their CEOs earn less.

Slightly beside the point. You can debate if he's worth it... I certainly would do things differently to him. But did he meet the targets set out by the board in his contract...and if he did...then he gets the cash. If the board think they can get somebody better cheaper, and ditto for major stakeholders...then they should invite some of those ppl at CX etc to apply.
It isn't about weather or not we like the direction he is taking things, or we think he's doing a good job. It is about if he is doing the job the board outlined for him. THEY MAY ALL BE COMPLETELY WRONG. Ansett's board certainly were. Ditto for some other past great names in history. If enough shareholders aren't happy with the performance, both the CEO and the board will be gone. (see American Airlines as a possible situation brewing... and restructre at Delta and United... effectively 'refreshing things' but pissing the original equity away)
 
Grid
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 14):
Please someone attempt to justify such a pay increase!!! This is just so not humane!!! 1,000+ workers will be out of a job while these exec. pigs get a nice pay increase... This just show's why QF wouldn't offer a 5% pay increase to its hard working work force...

I was going to respond but then:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 17):
Wait, you realise that we're talking about $2.5m, maybe $3m here, don't you. Try to distribute that across the entire QF workforce (and to be fair you have to count all subsidiaries, as AJ is QF Group CEO) and you're looking at maybe $20 per employee per year. It's also important to note that pay cuts haven't existed -- simply a lack of pay rises.
ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:19 pm

May I suggest reading the Annual report as it deals extensively with the remuneration, what is included, what is not, where it is from. Hopefully this will remove a lot of the guesswork.

It is available at http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...investors-annual-reports/global/en
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:10 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 17):

I think we'd all like to think we would, but like I said we don't know that it was a permanent thing. I'm willing to bet we'll see his income drop dramatically next year, and that this year has been influenced by other factors that are one offs.

Quite possible...

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 18):
at the cost of 1000 workers.... NO!!!!!!!!!!

You're being so melodramatic. 1000 workers would cost QF at least $60-70 million a year earning an average Australian income, not $2million which is the increase AJ has received. This is also likely a one off thing, and is probably a contractual requirement on the part of the company.

Exactly. Also, its easy to sit on the sidelines and say "no". I find that argument to be b.s. truth be told.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 20):
Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
and is probably a contractual requirement on the part of the company.

Which he could have easily declined!

Why?   

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 21):
AJ and friends are paid according to meeting targets and goals set out by the board. The board must approve
of this, he can't just 'give himself this'.. so to speak.

  

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 22):
Or is it that the thousands of workers at Qantas are keeping the company profitable (despite AJ constantly trashing the airline and leeching it) whilst he reaps the benefits?

It takes leadership and vision - that's what they get paid for.

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
May I suggest reading the Annual report as it deals extensively with the remuneration, what is included, what is not, where it is from. Hopefully this will remove a lot of the guesswork.

It is available at http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...al/en

Thanks..  
"Up the Irons!"
 
airproxx
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:07 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:00 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Thread starter):
Alan Joyce is to get a 71% payrise to A$5m+ whilst slashing jobs elsewhere in the company and with a declining share price.

Same happened some weeks ago with Pierre-Henry Gourgeon, AF CEO (Probably the worst they've had for agees), who got his pay rise up to 47%, while claming that there should be "unwilling departures" ( !!!! ) of AF employees.

I'm just getting sick of it all...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2368
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:11 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 26):
Why?

Common sense really. If your in the middle of negotiatons with rank and file about taking a pay cut (no matter how much it is) you should lead by example and not neccesary do the same thing but not hike your pay and please 71%!!. Thats just a real slap in the face and overnight this guy will lose the total respect of his work force, unions, etc etc......it just adds fuel to the fire.

I dont doubt that this guy might do a good job but his job is worthless if the work force go against him or go on a go slow or something similar.

Just my   
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 28):
Common sense really. If your in the middle of negotiatons with rank and file about taking a pay cut (no matter how much it is) you should lead by example and not neccesary do the same thing but not hike your pay and please 71%!!.

   Why is this such a hard concept for these executives to understand? You never ask your employees to do something you aren't willing to do yourself

All he has to do is look at the labor strife created at one world partner AA over the past decade by lavish executive bonuses while labor took huge concessions.

Is this basic common sense that hard for these guys to understand? They really need to get out of the ivory tower more often and catch a does of reality.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 26):
Why?

It's called good leadership! Thinking about the long term health of the company and fostering a good working environment. You don't ask for concessions and then take a huge pay increase it's piss poor leadership. But hey if he wants to create an AMR/APA type relationship with employees, by all means keep taking bonuses and pay raises.

“Because if you have happy employees, you will get happy customers, and if you have lots of happy customers, shareholders will inevitably become quite happy to” - Herb Kelleher, arguably the most successful CEO in aviation history.
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Topic Author
Posts: 4529
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:28 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 23):
THEY MAY ALL BE COMPLETELY WRONG. Ansett's board certainly were.

Half are ex-Ansett!

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 26):
It takes leadership and vision - that's what they get paid for.

Except he is providing neither, and is not engaging in the workforce at any level... something which good leadership does.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
fiscal
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:47 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:59 pm

Has anyone actually considered that maybe in the last couple of years, AJ has in fact taken a relative pay cut as a result of QF group's lack of performance, and now it is going back to normal expectations now that things are improving?
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:00 am

Quoting norcal (Reply 29):
Why is this such a hard concept for these executives to understand? You never ask your employees to do something you aren't willing to do yourself

Qantas isn't offering anyone a pay cut. What they are offering is rises linked to productivity gains and work rule changes to make QF more efficient. What the Union wants is job guarantee's........which they will never get. So standby for industrial action.

Quoting norcal (Reply 29):
All he has to do is look at the labor strife created at one world partner AA over the past decade by lavish executive bonuses while labor took huge concessions

Labor isn't making any concessions or being asked to. They're being offered payrises in exchange for work rule and productivity gains. The disputes are about job guarantees and career not about concessions.

Quoting norcal (Reply 29):
Is this basic common sense that hard for these guys to understand? They really need to get out of the ivory tower more often and catch a does of reality.

How's this for a dose of reality, the cost of running QF mainline services is higher than every Asian and Middle Eastern carrier. It's also higher than Virgin, United and Air New Zealand. If you can't command a premium fare in your markets then you will go out of business. Welcome to the scenario QF mainline International finds itself in. What QF is trying to do is to build a sustainable airline business around a core QF mainline network while driving leisure traffic and Asian growth opportunities towards Jetstar.

Quoting norcal (Reply 29):
It's called good leadership! Thinking about the long term health of the company and fostering a good working environment. You don't ask for concessions and then take a huge pay increase it's piss poor leadership. But hey if he wants to create an AMR/APA type relationship with employees, by all means keep taking bonuses and pay raises.

What Alan Joyce is doing is good for QF in the long term. What the employees are fighting him over is their role in that vision. It's not really about pay or conditions but career direction and seniority. That's why the pilots tried to bring Jetconnect into the Australian IR system and have failed. That's why they're pushing for Jetstar Pilots to be brought into their proceeding as well because that's where the growth and future promotions are going to be. For QF management this is about containing QF costs to QF branded aircraft and allowing the subsidiary businesses to continue to grow and flouish with their lower costs and better profit potential.

That's what this is all about so don't be distracted by the sideshow. This current battle between QF staff and management will define QF for years. It's long overdue, will be bloody but at the end of the day pain taken now will stand QF in a better place for the future.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 30):
Except he is providing neither, and is not engaging in the workforce at any level... something which good leadership does.

The workforce would rather beat their drums on a picket line than engage in any meaningful discussions about QF's future. Their stupid demand for job guarantees along with their continual trashing of QF maintenance does nothing for their argument. I find the maintenance argument particularly stupid given that Virgin has a significantly higher portion of its heavy maintenance done overseas than QF does yet they don't point out how unsafe Virgin would be in their eyes because of this. Ridiculous, it's high time the Unions in Australia woke up to how irrelevant they are jumped on the bandwagon to help their Company's compete rather than try to turn the clock back but to 60's and 70's closed shops.
 
qf002
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:20 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 22):
Or is it that the thousands of workers at Qantas are keeping the company profitable (despite AJ constantly trashing the airline and leeching it) whilst he reaps the benefits?

Everybody plays their part, sure, but there's a reason that the CEO and the rest of the Executive are the highest paid people. Their contribution is the greatest, and their individual roles are the most important in keeping the company in the black. The thousands of workers have no direct role in the keeping the company profitable -- their role and what they do doesn't change regardless of whether the company makes money or loses money. I ask you, what is an international flight attendant doing to keep the company profitable? What is a pilot actually doing that is different to 10 years ago that is keeping the company profitable?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 22):
poor management decisions

To be fair (and I don't like AJ at all) many of the issues today are knock on affects that are still being experienced from previous management's decisions. In my view, they are coming up with some solid plans for the future, and are paving a very economically-strong future for the group (which is their number 1 responsibility).

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 22):
recent past has had profits of $1b not to mention CX and SQ both make more profit than QF lately yet their CEOs earn less.

I understand your sentiment, but also consider that as a percentage, both CX and SQ CEOs earn more compared with the average incomes of their respective countries. Proportionally to the incomes of the rest of the airline's employees, they actually make more than AJ.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 30):
Except he is providing neither, and is not engaging in the workforce at any level... something which good leadership does.

   and that needs to be improved. It's not really relevant to this argument though, as he has achieved his targets and is being rewarded for that.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2638
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:30 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 32):
That's what this is all about so don't be distracted by the sideshow. This current battle between QF staff and management will define QF for years. It's long overdue, will be bloody but at the end of the day pain taken now will stand QF in a better place for the future.

        

very true. You can't let a situation develop like Ansett had were it was just uncompetitive pure and simple.
Great product, but the numbers just didn't add up.
In Australia, there is no chap 11 bankruptcy restructuring. QF can't do what Delta and United have done,
having conditions changed and struck down in courts in order to restructure. And I think it was important to
note the point NOBODY has been asked to take a pay cut. It's just the direction of the future is changing.
You should also remember, the more success the company has in Asia, and the more staff that are based in
Asia as a percentage of the entire group, the less power the Unions have over the company. Asian maintenance staff,
and even aussie expat crew (heaps at Cathay, SIA and Emirates no reason to think they won't find there way to
RedQ and friends) won't be going out on strike. Just as an aside, I find it racist to suggest people in singapore or hong kong somehow can't do as good as a job as people based in Australia!!!! Last time I checked these places were highly advanced developed economies, with a highly trained skilled workforce. It's not like aircraft are being sent to Cuba for maintenance.
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:11 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
You're being so melodramatic.
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 21):
AJ and friends are paid according to meeting targets and goals set out by the board. The board must approve
of this, he can't just 'give himself this'..[/quote

Yeah more like you give me the increase and I'll make sure you get the same...

[quote=Zkpilot,reply=22]CX and SQ both make more profit than QF lately yet their CEOs earn less.

Valid point... Did Geoff Dixon deserve the lovely $10 million bonus he pocketed after trying to sell QF off to those offshore investors which in the end went bankrupt!

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 26):
Exactly. Also, its easy to sit on the sidelines and say "no". I find that argument to be b.s. truth be told.

Well considering we had no choice but say yes to a 3% pay increase after 1 year of negotiating would you call a 70% fair and justified?

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2638
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:36 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 36):
Valid point... Did Geoff Dixon deserve the lovely $10 million bonus he pocketed after trying to sell QF off to those offshore investors which in the end went bankrupt!

Well while that result wouldn't have been in 'the national interest'... Qantas doesn't exist anymore for 'the national interest'. That ended in 1994 when paul keating rightly decided that there was no need for the government to be in the airline business. An Airline failure.. as far as the country is concerned, isn't the end of the world. I was sad to see Ansett go, I really liked flying with them. But they were replaced by a much learner more efficent outfit. 3 years after ansett fell, Virgin carried the same about of PAX, but on 1/3 of the aircraft, and 1/3 of the staff. That says something.

As for this hypothetical situation re Dixion. Compared to the shareprice today...yes GD would have absolutely earnt his money. The existing shareholders would be far far better off then they are at present. The new ownership would have of course struggled. But if GD had got them all something like $6 a share verse $1.54 at close today... yes it would be worth paying GD ten million for them all to have many many times their current equity. Was it a long term strategy? That's another issue altogether.. and there are questions both James Strong (particularly his refusal to see past the 747) and Dixion also have a lot to answer for. But that wasn't the question. Let's say they all took it. And QF failed. it would be pretty much like what happened when VARIG failed.(and TAM filled the gap) Virgin at first would had emergency meetings with the government to secure flight rights...then scrambled across its sister airlines to see what help they could immediately send. They may have done an Air One/Alitalia style rename of the thing but mroe likely virgin would negotiate with creditors to pick parts of the business useful to them. say about 60% of the fleet if the creditors would be realistic. If not, other short term capacity would come into the country. then they would then rehire what staff they felt were good and useful, except on more efficent virgin terms... until Boeing and airbus could get them more aircraft. A stock offering would be made to expand their capital base, and there you have it, you'd have a new long haul airline serving australia on a much bigger scale. ... So from a business point of view that is what would happen. Of course there would be national outrage that a national icon could fold. And if the creditors weren't wanting rediculous terms for the name no doubt virgin would seriously consider it. But from the point of the economy, others would fill the gap. It wouldn't be the end of the world, more a short term disruption.
 
qf002
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:57 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 36):
Well considering we had no choice but say yes to a 3% pay increase after 1 year of negotiating would you call a 70% fair and justified?

   We do not know that this is a pay increase!!!! I am willing to bet you my shoes that his annual salary has not risen 71%! He has probably earned a one off bonus based on the profit that they posted in extremely tough times, and the progress he has made with planning the future of the group, or stocks have matured and he has come into $3million in stock contractually given to him! Seriously, we complain about the media presenting a twisted and warped picture of so many aviation related things, yet so many people dive right in and trust every word/the assumptions made by the journalist when they have an agenda to fill or someone they want to discredit. I doubt that there will be an article/thread when his pay drops back that 70% next year!!

Rant over.
 
cam747
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:25 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:49 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 36):
Well considering we had no choice but say yes to a 3% pay increase after 1 year of negotiating would you call a 70% fair and justified?

I have been an avid reader of these forums for many many years now, but this topic has frustrated me enough to finally take the plunge and sign up!

I'm certainly no fan of Alan Joyce, but these reports are just the media stirring the pot, and its disappointing that many on these forums have taken the bait.

Anyone who has bothered to read the annual report will see that his salary last year was $2m, and this year is $2.06m an increase of 3%.

The 70% figure that everyone is talking about are share rights, granted under various performance bonuses, some dating as far back as 2005.

Anyone interested in the facts can read the Qantas annual report on page 33 onwards.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2638
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:24 pm

Quoting cam747 (Reply 39):
The 70% figure that everyone is talking about are share rights, granted under various performance bonuses, some dating as far back as 2005.

Yes but that doesn't suit the argument that he's evil and just out to strip the company for his own personal gain does it? Seriously some of things i have heard are beyond believe... like he is deliberately misleading the stockmarket and running JQ down so him and dixion can buy it themselves... crazy stuff. And this is out of quite senior Pilots and FA's. And of course AJ isn't going to sue the media... he's too busy running a company to waste time with journalists who couldn't read a balance sheet if they tried but love the juicey headlines.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:15 pm

From the annual report:
"Because of potential confusion in interpreting remuneration table values (which can involve multiple accounting periods and valuation dates) Qantas has this year provided an additional “Supplemental Information” disclosure. This disclosure provides information as to the value of earnings, including share-based payments reported in prior periods which have actually vested during the year. For example, while the CEO’s total reported pay (under Accounting Standards) can be seen as either 71% up on last year, or 19% below his “at target” pay for the year, it can also be seen as 9% down against last year
when viewed on the basis of “Total Vested Remuneration”, or the amount of pay realised during the year."

I do not understand why people are up in arms about the 71%. It is just a result of how he compensation package is created, i.e. big swings between years are expected.

What people should potentially be up in arms about is if the package is reasonable and how it is structured. Not the effects from how it is paid.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
What people should potentially be up in arms about is if the package is reasonable and how it is structured. Not the effects from how it is paid.

Hey, hey, don't start being reasonable and sensible in a thread about CEO's pay!
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Topic Author
Posts: 4529
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:17 pm

Quoting cam747 (Reply 39):
Anyone who has bothered to read the annual report will see that his salary last year was $2m, and this year is $2.06m an increase of 3%.

The 70% figure that everyone is talking about are share rights, granted under various performance bonuses, some dating as far back as 2005.

But it is still income... income that workers don't see any of.
And the question is still there: Why is he getting that bonus when the share price is doing badly, industrial relations are doing so badly, and the company has poor performace based mostly on poor aircraft decisions? Not to mention the relatively small profit compared to similar airlines that pay their CEOs less and who aren't receiving massive bonuses?
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:03 pm

His salary wasn't 2.06 MAUD. The FAR part was 2.06MAUD. FAR is targeted to represent 33% of total compensation. So if you want to talk about his salary you should use ~6 MAUD.

FAR is the fixed part. The other parts are:
STIP 40%
LTIP 27%

STIP is based on profit before tax and other financial measurement. PBT is 65%. It is payed 2/3 in cash and the rest in shares and is granted by the board based on a scorecard process. It typically involves multiple periods, i.e. pretty much impossible to figure out.

LTIP is now based on total shareholder return in relation to S&P/ASX100 (50%) and an airline peer group (50%) or EPS and S&P/ASX100 depending on the exact plan. The peer group is Air France/KLM, Air New Zealand, American Airlines, British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Delta/Northwest Airlines, Lufthansa, Ryanair, Easyjet, Singapore
Airlines, Southwest Airlines, Tiger Airways, Virgin Australia with Air Asia to be added for the next plan.

I don't think the process is too bad but as with most managers the amounts seems to be a few multiples too high when you compare to other employees. Does the CEO deserve 40 times what a pilot makes? I don't think so but that is my personal opinion whereas it is the Qantas shareholders who should decide.

I'd also like to see this setup being offered to every employee but I doubt management are ready for that or that the majority of employees could live on just 33% guaranteed and whatever rest being paid out much later.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
VA787
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:30 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:34 pm

Could Joyce have postponed this raise?

It just seems a bit stupid from my view that he would accept a raise of that proportion at this exact time. I do understand that he may have met ceratin goals which enabled him to these raises, however due to the raising tensions with the unions, I would have thought that he would have anticipated the medias negativity of this issue, and acted accordingly? ie, don't accept a payrise ATM. Sort the issues out first before putting more fuel on the fire, but not only in the unions, also the general public. The general public usually only see the medias view, and thus, as the larger percentage compared to us aviation enthusiasts, will choose which airline to fly accordingly. The general public will not usually look into both sides of this story.... I just would have thought Joyce had anticipated this media reaction...

Just my view I guess.

VA787
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:55 pm

It really should not be considered a raise. Probably more accurate to describe it as 19% of his salary was held back. Even more held back the year before.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Curiousflyer
Posts: 587
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:19 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:01 pm

Henry Ford said noone in a venture should make more than 40 times the lowest salary in the firm.

To me CEOs making mores than 1-2 million are fleecing their firms, clients, employees and shareholders. Unless they do something extraordinary maybe (huge growth or profit, successful re-organization, company founder...). Given Qantas's current difficulties, I'd be happy to set the example and take 500k home...
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3859
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:32 pm

Quoting VA787 (Reply 45):
It just seems a bit stupid from my view that he would accept a raise of that proportion at this exact time. I do understand that he may have met ceratin goals which enabled him to these raises, however due to the raising tensions with the unions, I would have thought that he would have anticipated the medias negativity of this issue, and acted accordingly? ie, don't accept a payrise ATM. Sort the issues out first before putting more fuel on the fire, but not only in the unions, also the general public. The general public usually only see the medias view, and thus, as the larger percentage compared to us aviation enthusiasts, will choose which airline to fly accordingly. The general public will not usually look into both sides of this story.... I just would have thought Joyce had anticipated this media reaction...

I agree this is about image and not necessarily rational but even if the raise is warranted. Don't take it especially when you are negotiating with unions, you'll profit more if the stock goes up as the CEO I would think anyways.

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 47):
o me CEOs making mores than 1-2 million are fleecing their firms, clients, employees and shareholders. Unless they do something extraordinary maybe (huge growth or profit, successful re-organization, company founder...). Given Qantas's current difficulties, I'd be happy to set the example and take 500k home..

Fair point and look at the salary of the now former CEO of one of the most successful (if not the most) corporation in the past few years, its $1 a year.

No one can complain ever about Steve Jobs ever fleecing Apple, again its image.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Qantas CEO Gets 71% Payrise!

Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:13 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 48):
its $1 a year

You need to include options and other rewards he received. A jet and its operating costs are said to be one of the rewards. He has been paid handsomely.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos