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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:18 am

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 99):
From what your post is saying, BNE is better feed than PVG/PEK/CAN???

To be fair to Koruman it is probably more high yielding: the wealthy Chinese fly CX, leaving QF to fight for the remainder.
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koruman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:11 am

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 99):
They bought enough 787's to do it - but is it QF's fault they are late?

It most certainly is Qantas' decision to divert the 787 fleet to Jetstar rather than using it to offer point-to-point services from Brisbane and Melbourne and Perth.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:17 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 101):
It most certainly is Qantas' decision to divert the 787 fleet to Jetstar rather than using it to offer point-to-point services from Brisbane and Melbourne and Perth.

Then we may assume QF expect to make more profit by doing that than doing what you want. That seems a very reasonable thing for a commerical orginisation to do!
Or do you have some facts/reasonable assumptions to support th argument that they are wrong?

Gemuser
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JMM99
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:44 am

isn't it likely whenever QF 787's come online, that BNE/LAX might become 1 x 787 some days & 2 x 787's busy days or instead of 2nd BNE/LAX , BNE/SFO, BNE/DFW ?
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:51 am

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 103):
isn't it likely whenever QF 787's come online, that BNE/LAX might become 1 x 787 some days & 2 x 787's busy days or instead of 2nd BNE/LAX , BNE/SFO, BNE/DFW ?

BNE-LAX is currently 6 weekly 744, so it's a route that will probably go to daily 789 in 5 years. IMO a BNE-DFW service once SYD goes nonstop in both directions would work well rather than extra flights to LAX, but we'll have to wait and see what QF want to do.
 
JMM99
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:59 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 104):
BNE-LAX is currently 6 weekly 744, so it's a route that will probably go to daily 789 in 5 years.

Wouldn't BNE/LAX go back to daily as soon as a 787 available ?

With VA 4 times a week, QF must have lost some market share BNE/LAX but won't 787's have a lot less seats than a QF 744 ?

Will QF 787's have range to do BNE/NYC or even SYD/NYC without taking a hit on freight ?

[Edited 2011-10-06 22:01:59]
 
koruman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:03 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 101):
It most certainly is Qantas' decision to divert the 787 fleet to Jetstar rather than using it to offer point-to-point services from Brisbane and Melbourne and Perth.
Quoting gemuser (Reply 102):
Then we may assume QF expect to make more profit by doing that than doing what you want. That seems a very reasonable thing for a commerical orginisation to do!
Or do you have some facts/reasonable assumptions to support th argument that they are wrong?

I'm not aware of any airline ever having made more money using wide-body aircraft for long-haul LCC services than they could have made as a full-service carrier.

And given that Australia (beyond NSW) has not actually experienced a recession and that WA and Queensland are actually booming, the decision to use the 787s for LCC long-haul instead of from those booming markets is, well, courageous.
 
JMM99
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:16 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 106):
I'm not aware of any airline ever having made more money using wide-body aircraft for long-haul LCC services than they could have made as a full-service carrier.

Huh ?

JQ is certainly a profit centre, QF Int is certainly not.
 
thegeek
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:35 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 104):

BNE-LAX is currently 6 weekly 744, so it's a route that will probably go to daily 789 in 5 years.

That's not a priority. The 787s should be used for their expansion plans, but what you are suggesting would be a reduction in capacity. It could be 4x weekly 744 and 3x weekly 789, which would be a capacity increase, but only if they can't find anything better to do with these aircraft.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 94):

Considering it's QF's home base and majority of the fleet / parts are in SYD the travelling public need to accept it...

That is an extraordinary comment.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:40 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 108):
The 787s should be used for their expansion plans

I agree. The 747s (even at 6 weekly) are fine for the route. There should be much bigger (growth) priorities for the 787.

However this is Qantas so it is quite possible that they will not launch any new destinations with the 787s, and cut capacity BNE-LAX because it isn't Sydney   

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 107):
JQ is certainly a profit centre, QF Int is certainly not.

Cue dodgy accounting standards conspiracy theories...
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qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:47 am

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 105):
Wouldn't BNE/LAX go back to daily as soon as a 787 available ?

Yes -- that's what I'm saying. Daily 789 in 5 years (which is when they will realistically have the aircraft to assign to the route). QF aren't getting any 787s till at least 2014 (relying on the -9 project going smoothly), and there are going to be a few routes that they'll be looking at so I don't think BNE-LAX will be their first. Therefore in my mind 2015-2016 seems like a reasonable time frame.

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 105):
Will QF 787's have range to do BNE/NYC or even SYD/NYC without taking a hit on freight ?

Nope -- that's an 8,650nm flight. Strictly 77L and A345 territory. In any case, NYC works because it feeds at LAX from MEL, SYD, BNE and AKL. I doubt that the MEL, BNE and especially AKL pax are going to be happy with having to fly out of their way to SYD instead of just jumping on an AA flight in LAX.

Quoting koruman (Reply 106):
I'm not aware of any airline ever having made more money using wide-body aircraft for long-haul LCC services than they could have made as a full-service carrier.

Well that's an impossible statement to make, since QF/JQ is a pretty unique situation at the moment. In any case, QF international is losing money and JQ international is making money -- there's your airline.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:31 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 97):

Wow, how many times have we heard this and had this discussion? Lets all move on, it is a bit like the QF and the 777 debate. It isnt going to happen, so lets accept it, and move on and discuss things in a constructive manner  

Also, in Gold Coast media it is reported that CZ WILL start services to OOL by 2015... however I was only under the impression that CZ was looking at OOL services... did they ever say they would definitely?
 
thegeek
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:53 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 111):
t is a bit like the QF and the 777 debate.

It's not like that at all. Unless QF goes broke there is no reason why they couldn't serve other Australian cities better than they do regarding international flights. It is an ongoing under achievement.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:07 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 106):
I'm not aware of any airline ever having made more money using wide-body aircraft for long-haul LCC services than they could have made as a full-service carrier.

I don't know of any other carrier who has actually tried it so this is an experiment in many ways.

With QF's high cost base, long thin routes don't work. QF has worked out that the Australian home market has been lost irretrievably for one reason or another and is trying to build up new markets. It's best hope of survival is to tap into Asia and use an Asian base in order to tie those markets together, in other words, do an SQ on SQ and use Australia as a source of feed rather than as a base. Unfortunately because of, inter alia, the Sale of Qantas Act, this is difficult. Hence the formation and strengthening of JQ.

Our labour market is expensive and it will not be competitive if it does not move offshore. Profits can be moved back into Australia of course. Flying what you proposed, which predicates an Australian base, is impossible.

With QF's 787's, you would have seen things like PER-BKK, MEL-KUL, BNE-ICN. Mind you, all those routes are possible using 330s - QF's problem may have been thinking of the 330 as a domestic aircraft whereas armed with 15-20 332's it could have shored itself up against some of the Asian competition.

For Europe, EK and EY win based on geography - it is still 12 hours from SIN/HKG to smaller destinations in Europe with less feed opportunities than AUH/DXB. CX and SQ make it work with their ability to get feed from nations around them. QF can't do this until they set something up in SE Asia. PER, BNE, MEL isn't enough.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:50 am

Quoting vaustralie (Reply 98):
Okay, but why not grow another base in MEL or BNE?

Ask AJ... His the man with all the brilliant idea's...

Quoting koruman (Reply 97):
I accept it, as a frequent flyer based part-way between Brisbane and the Gold Coast.

And I respond to it by directing my $100K+ of long-haul tickets per year to Air New Zealand and, latterly, Etihad.

Well done... I choose to fly carriers such as TG & EK so don't have a go at me I'm just making a point... If travelling public aren't happy then there are many more options to choose from via other ports...

Quoting tayser (Reply 95):
the travelling public do not need to accept it, they can simply choose a better option - and they do except for where SYD is completely unavoidable and that's mainly to South America, NRT or JNB - everywhere else, no need to fly on QF.

Well done...

Quoting thegeek (Reply 108):
That is an extraordinary comment.

???

EK413
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The Coachman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:09 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 114):
???

The customer is king. If they don't want to go via SYD and there are options, then they can and will take those other options. The customer who takes those other options does not accept that SYD is it.

You only have to look at the lost market share and heavy losses incurred by QF international to see this.

I am planning a SFO trip - NZ is coming cheaper by a long way, if QF had offered the non-stop I probably would think about it for $200 more each way. As it is, I have to connect - therefore even QFF notwithstanding, I will likely take NZ.
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
747m8te
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:11 am

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 105):
With VA 4 times a week, QF must have lost some market share BNE/LAX but won't 787's have a lot less seats than a QF 744 ?

Actually, VA hasn't really tapped QFs market share on the route at all, what has seen a major reduction is the passengers connecting on the likes of CI via TPE, NZ via AKL, CX via HKG who are travelling onto LAX. QF could make this route work daily with 747 easily, downsizing to a 787 would simply be handing passengers to other airlines as the demand is higher then a 787 capacity. The only situation I could see QF doing this is if they operated return flights with 787 to both LAX and DFW from BNE in its own right, without the SYD tag.

Quoting koruman (Reply 101):
It most certainly is Qantas' decision to divert the 787 fleet to Jetstar rather than using it to offer point-to-point services from Brisbane and Melbourne and Perth.

But even by diverting the inital batch of 787s to JQ, if the 787s had been delivered ontime (and the A380 for that matter...), QF would be getting a sizable number of 787s sooner to do these duties and allow for expansion plans.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 102):
Then we may assume QF expect to make more profit by doing that than doing what you want. That seems a very reasonable thing for a commerical orginisation to do!

That's a good point, and it's the other issue, for an airline to make money, it has to look after what operations are bringing in the most profit, and look after those service and making them stronger first! Expansion is fine...if its sustainable, and new routes can be an expensive exercise if your lookinng at your bottom line, especially if you neglect the back bone of your operations!
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EK413
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:35 am

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 115):
The customer is king. If they don't want to go via SYD and there are options, then they can and will take those other options. The customer who takes those other options does not accept that SYD is it.

You only have to look at the lost market share and heavy losses incurred by QF international to see this.

I am planning a SFO trip - NZ is coming cheaper by a long way, if QF had offered the non-stop I probably would think about it for $200 more each way. As it is, I have to connect - therefore even QFF notwithstanding, I will likely take NZ.

Cheers for your detailed response...

I understand the customer comes first and in your case is King... This once again is QF choice to tunnel all pax via SYD and if pax choose to fly other carriers then good on those which choose much more convenient ways to travel...
I choose to fly TG personally....

EK413
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FlyboyOz
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:28 am

Qantas is now looking for a fashion designer for the new uniform. Silver uniform is a short-live!! Why is it that???

Also Qantas B744 will have new Airbus' interior cabin (doesn't it mean airbus' walls, overhead bins and galley)?

[Edited 2011-10-08 22:30:41]
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thegeek
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:59 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 114):
???
Quoting EK413 (Reply 114):
Well done... I choose to fly carriers such as TG & EK so don't have a go at me I'm just making a point... If travelling public aren't happy then there are many more options to choose from via other ports...

Which is exactly what I was alluding to. Say, for example, I want to fly MEL-PVG, I can use Air China or China Eastern direct, or put up with flying via SYD on QF.

Or even more of what should be QF bread and butter, if I want to fly BNE->LHR on QF I need to have a 3h15m transit in SIN, and a 3h55m transit in the opposite direction. Could be worse, but a coordinated service should be better.

If I use Emirates for BNE-LHR, I can have connections as tight as 90 minutes (100mins on the return). Or longer if that makes me nervous.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:13 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 119):
even more of what should be QF bread and butter

This is the bit I dispute. How do you know it would be QFs bread & butter? I think by their actions they are saying they don't think it is and that traffic is not as profitable as other traffic. They could be wrong, of course, but if so how, why?

Gemuser
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thegeek
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:55 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 120):
This is the bit I dispute. How do you know it would be QFs bread & butter? I think by their actions they are saying they don't think it is and that traffic is not as profitable as other traffic. They could be wrong, of course, but if so how, why?

I was more thinking of the international business.

Even so, I guess you do have a point. I am assuming there is more profit in flying an A380 to LHR than an A330 to PVG, but I guess I don't know that for sure.
 
ben175
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:30 am

In the paper yesterday, Perth Airport included a large 10-12 page article on the redevelopment beginning now. Exciting times ahead!
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:03 am

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 118):
Also Qantas B744 will have new Airbus' interior cabin (doesn't it mean airbus' walls, overhead bins and galley)?

The 6 B744ER's are already fitted with the Boeing Signature Interior, and the additional 3 aircraft (which are currently in the old interior) will have new bins, wall panels, galleys, bathrooms etc installed. The seats and 'style' of the interior (ie the colours, carpets, touches of metal, the style of the self service bars etc) are all identical to to A380.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:47 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 120):
Quoting thegeek (Reply 119):
even more of what should be QF bread and butter

This is the bit I dispute. How do you know it would be QFs bread & butter? I think by their actions they are saying they don't think it is and that traffic is not as profitable as other traffic

To rephrase what I think thegeek was getting at: QF51/52 clearly operates to interline with LHR/FRA, with O&D a secondary objective. In that case it would be better to have to timed better for connections. After all the early afternoon SQ flight leaves 1 hour later than QF51, yet all the flights SIN-LHR depart at approximately the same time.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
TN486
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:02 am

Quoting TN486 (Thread starter):
I am off to Perth tomorrow (Monday) travelling DJ returning Thu evening. Looking forward to seeing how the culture and service has changed, and hoping I get one of the ac with the new livery.
Enjoy your robust discussion in this new thread

"tomorrow" was Sep 19. Ac was YIB, (flt 685 seat 29A) and the return was YIA,(flight 694 again seat 29A). very impressed with the interior, mood lighting, seats, stowage bins etc. Had a good chat to the FA's on both ac, one on the PER - MEL trip was very chatty about her secondment to London with Virgin Atlantic,the highlight being her "date with the upper deck on the 747", one of her work highlights. All staff were friendly, helpful, and they all seem quite upbeat about the current direction of DJ. Operationally, both flights went off without a hitch. Flt 694 was delayed boarding as they were overbooked by 1, so were looking for a volunteer to offload to the red eye that night). 3 pax later, and the volunteer was found (and yes, it cost DJ a bit from what the bumped pax told me). And then their was a delay of some 15 minutes near the threshold, however we finished up doing a rolling start, and still got to MEL some 15 minutes ahead of schedule , trip time was about 3.30. Did not put this in trip reports as this is a very abreviated report.
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
 
thegeek
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:23 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 124):
To rephrase what I think thegeek was getting at: QF51/52 clearly operates to interline with LHR/FRA, with O&D a secondary objective. In that case it would be better to have to timed better for connections. After all the early afternoon SQ flight leaves 1 hour later than QF51, yet all the flights SIN-LHR depart at approximately the same time.

Yes, exactly. Moving these flights to coordinate better would have a negligible effect on the O&D pax, but help with the connecting pax.

Great additional example with SQ.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:43 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 126):
Yes, exactly. Moving these flights to coordinate better would have a negligible effect on the O&D pax, but help with the connecting pax.

Doesn't the BNE-SIN flight operate onwards to India? So maybe it's a case of needing the aircraft on the ground in SIN a bit longer to prepare it for a BOM turn 3 nights a week?
 
thegeek
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting sydscott (Reply 127):
Doesn't the BNE-SIN flight operate onwards to India? So maybe it's a case of needing the aircraft on the ground in SIN a bit longer to prepare it for a BOM turn 3 nights a week?

That's possible, but the BOM flight could be done in other ways - either tag from PER-SIN or SYD-ADL-SIN. And I'm fairly sure these issues pre-date the tag. It used to be a SYD-BOM A332 and before that a SYD-DRW-BOM-SYD A333.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:10 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 112):
It's not like that at all. Unless QF goes broke there is no reason why they couldn't serve other Australian cities better than they do regarding international flights. It is an ongoing under achievement.

I agree, we will for ever have this debate but unless you live in Sydney many other international carriers offer better service than our own national airline from MEL/BRIS/ADL/PER I find it staggering that I have seen more QF metal parked at LAX than at the international terminal in MEL. The one thing they do need to figure out is that there are 5 other capital citys other than Sydney which need to be served better than they do or people will keep turning away from Qantas.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:20 pm

Quoting sydscott (Reply 127):
Doesn't the BNE-SIN flight operate onwards to India? So maybe it's a case of needing the aircraft on the ground in SIN a bit longer to prepare it for a BOM turn 3 nights a week?

Actually no. You are correct in that QF51/52 operates BNE-SIN-BOM-SIN-BNE three times a week, but it is a 'change of gauge service' akin to SYD-LAX-JFK.

The aircraft which actually operates SIN-BOM-SIN comes in from (and out to) ADL, since that flight also only operates 3 weekly. The a/c has to overnight in BOM which means feeding it into BNE (daily) was a real pain in the a***

Therefore it now routes something like:

Day 1 ADL-SIN/SIN-BOM
Day 2 BOM-SIN/SIN-ADL
Day 3 ADL-SIN/SIN-BOM
Day 4 BOM-SIN/SIN-ADL
Day 5 ADL-SIN/SIN-BOM
Day 6 BOM-SIN/SIN-ADL
Day 7 ADL-SYD (separate A330) SYD-ADL

This leaves 1 A330 to simply back-and-forward BNE-SIN-BNE every day

Why they don't just re-number the BOM leg I don't know, but there you go...


That it wasn't the BNE aircraft operating BOM should have been clear from the fact that BNE-SIN-BNE has been operated by a 744 over the northern summer  
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 124):
In that case it would be better to have to timed better for connections

I apologise profusely for this terrible phrasing/grammar!!!
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:22 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 128):

Quoting sydscott (Reply 127):
Doesn't the BNE-SIN flight operate onwards to India? So maybe it's a case of needing the aircraft on the ground in SIN a bit longer to prepare it for a BOM turn 3 nights a week?

That's possible, but the BOM flight could be done in other ways - either tag from PER-SIN or SYD-ADL-SIN.


It is done with the inbound QF81 and QF71 aircraft -- this has always been the case, even before QF51 BNE-SIN went to 744 operation.
 
Auchmithie
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:13 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 131):
Quoting qf002 (Reply 131):
It is done with the inbound QF81 and QF71 aircraft -- this has always been the case, even before QF51 BNE-SIN went to 744 operation.

CorrLast week both VH-QPC and VH-QPH operated Mumbai flights. Their movements were as follows:

01/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF88 Hong Kong Sydney
02/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF41 Sydney Jakarta
02/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF42 Jakarta Sydney
03/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF129 Sydney Shanghai
03/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF130 Shanghai Sydney
04/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF81 Sydney Adelaide Singapore
04/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF51 Singapore Mumbai
05/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF52 Mumbai Singapore
05/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF82 Singapore Adelaide
06/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF81 Adelaide Singapore
07/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF72 Singapore Perth
07/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF71 Perth Singapore
07/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF82 Singapore Adelaide
08/10/2011 VH-QPC A330-300 QF81 Adelaide Singapore

01/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF77 Perth Singapore
01/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF51 Singapore Mumbai
02/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF52 Mumbai Singapore
03/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF72 Singapore Perth
03/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF71 Perth Singapore
04/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF72 Singapore Perth
04/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF71 Perth Singapore
05/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF72 Singapore Perth
05/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF71 Perth Singapore
06/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF72 Singapore Perth
06/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF71 Perth Singapore
06/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF51 Singapore Mumbai
07/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF52 Mumbai Singapore
08/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF72 Singapore Perth
08/10/2011 VH-QPH A330-300 QF71 Perth Singapore

Courtesy http://www.theqantassource.com/qijettracker.html
 
alangirvan
Posts: 522
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:56 pm

I was interested to read Bruce Buchanan's comments on what the A320NEOs will do for Jetstar - examples were SYD/MEL to Bali, where the Neos would have the range to do these as non stops, rather than with tech stops in Darwin, and with more frequency than A332s or 787s.

Um, the Virgin 738s already can do SYD/MEL/BNE to DPS non stop - a clear advantage that the current 738 has over the current A320. I know there have been some Virgin flights where some passengers have been unloaded at MEL, but this is not a regular happening, is it? Presumably, when 737-8 Max is available, that aircraft will do the longer sectors very well.

MEL/SYD to DPS could see a lot of A320NEOs - if Tiger is still going when these planes are available, the Indonesian arm of that airline could use the range. Air Asia Indonesia will be another. There could be so many carriers on the route, it will be hard for any one to make any money.
 
JMM99
Posts: 142
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:47 am

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 129):
I find it staggering that I have seen more QF metal parked at LAX than at the international terminal in MEL. The one thing they do need to figure out is that there are 5 other capital citys other than Sydney which need to be served better than they do or people will keep turning away from Qantas.

Think Qantas needs to try & work out where pax landing in LAX are actually heading.

Not that easy these days as many are getting separate tickets. Eg. many families at Xmas do the Disneyland/Universal Studios thing for 2-5 days, then head to a ski resort.

Many now use Southwest or other carriers to get to Colorado & unless on 1 ticket from Australia, Qantas has no idea that they even head to CO.

Many people find cheapest fare possible to LAX, (usually not QF) & then use QF points earned thru credit cards, to fly to one of 3 airports in CO that AA now fly to nonstop from LAX, plus others 1 stop.

A few years back there was talk of a flight into DEN either 1 stop(avoiding LAX) or nonstop from Australia. A 744ER can do SYD/DFW, so presume a 744 or 787 can do SYD/DEN.

Such a large number of Australians heading to CO in DEC-JAN it could be just seasonal.

OR before the likes of Strategic try to link up with someone out of HNL, do a 1 stop with at HNL linking with AA to EGE or even once or twice a week from another port like NAN.

Seems to be 2 main types of skiers these days, the ones who want the cheapest airfar possible & the one who want the most convenient flights possible, who don't care about cost.

So, such a route doesn't have to be low yield.

Another option is instead of paying parking fees at LAX all day, QF could use one of the 744's or A330 (from AKL) to continue onto DEN.

Think 5 QF aircraft (744's from BNE & SYD most days, A380 from SYD, A380 or 744 from SYD & A330 from AKL) + FJ 744 5 days a week, basically arrive in LAX by 10am & don't depart before 2200).

Surely QF could fill an A330/B787 twice a week LAX/DEN. They couldn't sell fare to domestci only US pax, but could sell freight I think like LAX/JFK service.
 
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vhqpa
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:55 am

@JMM89

Here is the REALDEAL

SYD-DEN might be doable but there no way anything can take off from a high altitude airport then battle transpacific heads all the way back to Australia. And from what I know about EGE even Honolulu is beyond range out of there. There might be demand to Colorado but Given the distance it's not viable nonstop I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time we've told you
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:09 am

Quoting vhqpa (Reply 135):
And from what I know about EGE even Honolulu is beyond range out of there.

The runway at EGE is 8,000' which I'm thinking is definitely too short for a full A330 departing at altitude.

And NAN would never work: the aircraft would need to touch down in the USA first so that passengers can clear customs and quarantine.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:44 am

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 133):
MEL/SYD to DPS could see a lot of A320NEOs

Oh great, I've always wanted for there to be more long international flights using NBs!

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 134):
Think Qantas needs to try & work out where pax landing in LAX are actually heading.

Well over half of them are staying in LAX/California.

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 134):
then use QF points earned thru credit cards, to fly to one of 3 airports in CO that AA now fly to nonstop from LAX, plus others 1 stop.

So what? QF still gets the passenger's business and the airline still gets the fare.

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 134):
Another option is instead of paying parking fees at LAX all day, QF could use one of the 744's or A330 (from AKL) to continue onto DEN.

Why not just route them onto an AA flight? Most pax don't care anyway, and I'm willing to bet that the final cost to the consumer is lower using an AA codeshare than QF using a guzzly 744 on a short route with the F/J cabins empty. Not to mention the wider range of options AA offers, and the flexibility of having multiple daily flights to offer.

And btw the AKL A330 is already tied up with JFK...
 
cwalt2
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:39 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:15 am

Virgin Australia wants to add as many as 46 international destinations through its planned codeshare alliance with Singapore Airlines/SilkAir.

Points include Sao Paulo, Jo'burg, Beijing, Shanghai, Delhi and numerous other hubs in Asia, along with points into Europe - Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Zurich and Barcelona. There's also plans to include London, via Singapore, for the Perth market only.

Interesting that some of the hubs include points serviced by its alliance partner Etihad Airways, but destinations Virgin Australia has chosen not to codeshare with EY to.

source Travel Daily - http://www.traveldaily.com.au/news/virgin-planning-46-sia-hubs/73867
 
Flyingsottsman
Posts: 800
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:32 am

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 134):
Such a large number of Australians heading to CO in DEC-JAN it could be just seasonal.

It is one of the most beautiful States in the US been there a few times.

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 134):
Another option is instead of paying parking fees at LAX all day, QF could use one of the 744's or A330 (from AKL) to continue onto DEN.

Or I wounder if QF brought back San Francisco and added Denver as a tag on. Denver is also a huge United hub from what i can remember being at DEN in transit back in 2001 AA was not that big there. That was in 2001 tho so things might have changed. But I like your way of thinking.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8374
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:02 am

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 139):
Denver is also a huge United hub from what i can remember being at DEN in transit back in 2001 AA was not that big there

DEN is a UA hub, with AA only linking it to its hubs. While its importance in the New United's network is slightly diminished (UA are ceasing DEN-LHR) it is still UA, not AA, territory.

Quoting cwalt2 (Reply 138):
Virgin Australia wants to add as many as 46 international destinations through its planned codeshare alliance with Singapore Airlines/SilkAir.

Points include Sao Paulo, Jo'burg, Beijing, Shanghai, Delhi and numerous other hubs in Asia, along with points into Europe - Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Zurich and Barcelona. There's also plans to include London, via Singapore, for the Perth market only.

Interesting that some of the hubs include points serviced by its alliance partner Etihad Airways, but destinations Virgin Australia has chosen not to codeshare with EY to.

It's good to see that non-EY Europe is included in the agreement, but I can't help but wonder if it is worth ditching EY ex BNE now that VA aren't going to launch BNE-AUH. This means that VA will only offer 2 stop LHR whether that is BNE-SIN-AUH or BNE-SYD-AUH. SQ would definitely be the better partner up there....
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:05 pm

Have any QF insiders heard anything about the unveiling of the new B744ER configuration? I was told that plans were for some sort of media event today, with services starting by the end of this week -- evidently that's not happened, so hoping that the delay isn't too long.
 
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vhqpa
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:20 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 136):
The runway at EGE is 8,000' which I'm thinking is definitely too short for a full A330 departing at altitude.

  


I'm pretty sure the largest aircraft that can use EGE is a 757-200 and even then I doubt It could make in any further then the 48 contiguous states.

The way I see it the main problem stopping direct Australia > Colorado services is it requires a specialised aircraft (345/77L) which would still require a westbound stop due to Denver's 5,500' elevation combined with headwinds. It doesn't help that it's a very seasonal market. What would you do with the aircraft for the other 10 months of the year?
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
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Zkpilot
Posts: 4521
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:40 pm

Quoting cwalt2 (Reply 138):
Sao Paulo

Didn't realise that SQ flies to Sao Paulo? what routing does this take as surely it is too far direct.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
cwalt2
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:39 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:16 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 143):

If I'm not mistaken it must be SQ's Singapore-Barcelona-Sao Paulo service.
 
alangirvan
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 2:13 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:14 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 140):
Points include Sao Paulo, Jo'burg, Beijing, Shanghai, Delhi and numerous other hubs in Asia, along with points into Europe - Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Zurich and Barcelona. There's also plans to include London, via Singapore, for the Perth market only.
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 140):
It's good to see that non-EY Europe is included in the agreement, but I can't help but wonder if it is worth ditching EY ex BNE now that VA aren't going to launch BNE-AUH. This means that VA will only offer 2 stop LHR whether that is BNE-SIN-AUH or BNE-SYD-AUH. SQ would definitely be the better partner up there....

Looking at Great Circle Mapper shows that flying from SYD to Sao Paulo via SIN increases the distance by some 93%. Who would want to travel twice the distance unless the really wanted the points?

Do the agreements with EY and SQ mean that Virgin thinks that their account customers will go to their booking site for all their international travel needs? Do customers really need the Virgin code on their itinerary? I would think that EY would hope VA will support the EY services ex BNE.
 
JMM99
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:56 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:20 am

just heard a rumour that one of Australian travel agency groups is getting into airline charter, using scheduled carriers.

Apparently no need to advertise the fact, as selling in house only & running few minutes either side of scheduled services which are almost already full.

I presume they say, to clients, have you confirmed on X airline at this time.

Not even sure if they tell clients it's a charter. The main difference being, cancellation or change costs, which are probably hidden in fine print of their tickets.


The idea of charters, makes a lot of sense, although involves a completely different mindset (not trying to get more commission out of an airline, or trying to beat someone elses costing by a few dollars, but rather trying to fill every seat on an aircraft).

Charter means they are effectively paying for every seat whether they sell them all or not.

Normally an agent doesn't care if airline fills seats or not.

By operating charters, they get in good books with hoteliers who may have lots of rooms available, but can't get people to their hotels if all flights are very full.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8374
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:39 am

Quoting JMM99 (Reply 146):
just heard a rumour that one of Australian travel agency groups is getting into airline charter, using scheduled carriers.

Apparently no need to advertise the fact, as selling in house only & running few minutes either side of scheduled services which are almost already full.

Interesting concept, but I'm honestly not sure how successful it would be...

As for the "travel agency group" surely FCL is the only one only remotely big enough to try something like this?

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 145):
I would think that EY would hope VA will support the EY services ex BNE.

I'm sure EY would, but they only fly BNE-AUH 3x weekly, via SIN.
SQ flies 3x daily to SIN.

Which looks more attractive?
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:48 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 147):
Interesting concept, but I'm honestly not sure how successful it would be...

It's been quite successful in Europe and the US.

In the US, Apple Vacations had it's own airline for several years - USA3000 - which, at its peak, had a fleet of 8 x A320.

The economics of hat have changed, with high fuel coupled with the high seasonality of their business, they are dismantling the airline. They have entered into a seven year contract with Frontier Airlines to provide all the aircraft/crews for their charter work.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
alangirvan
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 2:13 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread #54

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:19 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 147):
Quoting alangirvan (Reply 145):
I would think that EY would hope VA will support the EY services ex BNE.

I'm sure EY would, but they only fly BNE-AUH 3x weekly, via SIN.
SQ flies 3x daily to SIN.

Which looks more attractive?

Obviously the SQ schedule, but VA is supposed to have a JV with EY. EY would be daily into BNE, but I think they have reached the limits of what they are allowed to fly into Australia, and they still have a much smaller fleet than EK or SQ so they cannot have multiple daily frequencies into Australian cities.

I would guess that when EY does have the rights to fly their own metal twice daily into SYD, and at least daily non stop into BNE, they will do it without VA.

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