Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
bomber996
Topic Author
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:21 am

DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:26 pm

I'm wondering if anyone has an update on the DL pullout of certain Upper Midwest markets with the retirement of the Saab 340's. I'm looking for timelines, when DL will pull out of these markets and how this will affect their MSP hub. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I'm especially interested in markets like INL (International Falls, MN) and TVF (Thief River Falls, MN) where there were rumors of DL pulling out completely.

I'm wondering about this because I have a ticket flying out of DVL just before Christmas and returning just after New Years. When I booked the ticket the outbound flight out of DVL was scheduled to be the Saab 340. I was excited because I knew that DL is retiring the Saabs soon and that my flight back into DVL is going to be a CRJ. However, I just got a notice from DL the other day saying that the Saab is no longer on the flight and a CRJ has replaced it. Does this mean that DL is expediting the retirement of these aircraft? Thanks for the info!

   Peace
"We've recently upped our standards, so up yours." - Federal Aviation Administration
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8131
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:39 pm

The last of the Mesaba Saab 340s will be removed by mid-December. Right now I believe the last day of XJ DL Saab flying is 12/17. The last day of XJ US Saab flying will be 12/23.

The DTW Saab flying is done this month, all that will be left is going to be MSP-based flying. CRJs are replacing the Saan routes.

As of now, DL will continue to operate all of the EAS routes until the DOT completes the rebidding process.

Here is what I posted in another thread a few weeks ago, buried in another thread.
-----

No, DL has not cut and of the EAS service yet. Essentially what they did was give the DOT the 90-day notice last month in July. What that means is that DL gave the DOT notice that they could solicit bids for a new carrier to begin service within a 90 day period. DL cannot drop the service under its own decision. DL can only end service if the DOT selects another carrier (or DL again) through the bidding process.

In the event no bids are received, the DOT doesn't select another carrier, or the new carrier doesn't start service in that period, DL will continue to receive payment for the service based on this:

"The EAS program was created to ensure small communities continue to have access to passenger air service. In some cases, airline service in EAS markets is subsidized by the government. The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 provides that if a carrier is held in beyond the 90-day notice period, it is entitled to receive compensation "to pay for the fully allocated actual cost to the carrier of performing the ...service ... plus a reasonable return on investment that is at least 5 percent of operating costs; and to provide the carrier an additional return that recognizes the demonstrated additional lost profits from opportunities foregone [by continuing to be held in and providing service]."
http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1408

So, DL will continue to operate until the DOT selects a new carrier. The EAS routes fell into 4 categories:

1) Markets where DL is requesting a subsidy where service is currently unsubsidized but is being requested to now support CRJ service
2) Markets where DL is currently subsidized and plans to re-bid requesting a higher subsidy to cover the cost of CRJ service
3) Markets that DL is not going to submit a bid (plans to drop), where Great Lakes is planning to submit a bid (and will have some type of codeshare arrangement with DL)
4) Markets that DL is not going to submit a bid (plans to drop)

Until the bids are submitted and selected, DL is going to be operating status-quo.

Now what and how the government plans to run the EAS program is other matter.

------

Listed below are the affected service, with what is known so far:

Thief River Falls, MN TVF EAS subsidized 12.0% load factor - no bidders
Greenville, MS GLH EAS subsidized 27.6% load factor - no bidders
Devils Lake, ND DVL EAS subsidized 30.3% load factor - no bidders
Watertown, SD ATY EAS subsidized 35.0% load factor - no bidders
Muscle Shoals, AL MSL EAS subsidized 35.7% load factor - no bidders
Fort Dodge, IA FOD EAS subsidized 39.1% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid
Hibbing, MN HIB EAS subsidized 39.2% load factor - no bidders
Alpena, MI APN EAS subsidized 39.5% load factor - no bidders
Tupelo, MS TUP EAS subsidized 41.0% load factor - no bidders
Jamestown, ND JMS EAS subsidized 42.1% load factor - no bidders
Mason City, IA MCW EAS subsidized 45.9% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid
Pierre, SD PIR Not EAS subsidized 47.4% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid, requesting subsidy
Iron Mountain, MI IMT EAS Subsidized 48.7% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid
Sioux City, IA SUX Not EAS subsidized 51.4% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
International Falls, MN INL EAS subsidized 52.5% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid
Brainerd, MN BRD Not EAS subsidized 52.6% load factor - Great Lakes plans to bid, requesting subsidy
Hattiesburg, MS PIB EAS subsidized 53.7% load factor - no bidders
Escanaba MI ESC EAS subsidized 55.2% load factor - DL will re-bid requesting higher subsidy
Aberdeen, SD ABR Not EAS subsidized 55.6% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
Pellston MI PLN Not EAS subsidized 58.5% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
Bemidji, MN BJI Not EAS subsidized 59.3% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
Sault Ste Marie MI CIU EAS subsidized 60.0% load factor - DL will re-bid requesting higher subsidy
Waterloo, IA ALO Not EAS subsidized 61.4% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy
Butte, MT BTM Not EAS subsidized 65.3% load factor - DL bid requesting a subsidy

----
 
User avatar
JBo
Posts: 1769
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:00 pm

SkyWest has already entered the EAS fray in the Upper Midwest with markets like Muskegon (MKG), Eau Claire (EAU), and Houghton/Hancock (CMX), all previous Mesaba cities that XJ lost to OO when XJ/DL solicited EAS bids to retain service. SkyWest operates these cities as UAX to ORD (and recently rebid to continue service to these cities).

Given that SkyWest has a surplus of CRJs, I wonder if they are considering expanding their EAS operations out of ORD to put aircraft into service that may otherwise sit.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1888
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:04 pm

.... and where is Great Lakes going to get all these planes from? The last time they went on an EAS bidding spree it almost shut the company down.

Plus they owe Raytheon $31 million and I think this time its going to turn messy.
xx
 
kinglobjaw
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:20 pm

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:01 am

So, lets take TVF for example. If no one ends up bidding for it, DL will have to continue flying it on a CRJ? For how long? Currently, TVF gets 2X daily Saab 340s. If they have to continue flying it under EAS, will they still have to operate 2 frequencies or can they offer a single CRJ service?

-Kinglobjaw
Kinglobjaw
 
User avatar
JBo
Posts: 1769
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:49 am

Quoting USXguy (Reply 3):
.... and where is Great Lakes going to get all these planes from? The last time they went on an EAS bidding spree it almost shut the company down.

There are rumors afoot that ZK is trying to acquire the former XJ Saabs...
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1888
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:39 am

that would work if XJ is giving them away for free. Not sure it would make sense for Lakes to pick them up when the Brasilia is already in the fleet and fairly easy to acquire. Don't forget that Gulfstream is taking delivery of its first Saab 340B in November as well...
xx
 
n7371f
Posts: 1836
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:51 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 5):
There are rumors afoot that ZK is trying to acquire the former XJ Saabs...
Quoting USXguy (Reply 6):
that would work if XJ is giving them away for free. Not sure it would make sense for Lakes to pick them up when the Brasilia is already in the fleet and fairly easy to acquire. Don't forget that Gulfstream is taking delivery of its first Saab 340B in November as well...

The SAAB's are all leased mostly through Lambert Leasing which is affiliated with SAAB.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:06 am

So, as all the domestics start to retire their Brasilias and SAABs, are we really just going to lose all the service to all these cities? Do they not make any money at all on any of them?

There are modern turboprops being built. The ATR42 and 72 even have a brand new model.

Will nobody operate these flights ever again?

NS
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5545
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
DL cannot drop the service under its own decision. DL can only end service if the DOT selects another carrier (or DL again) through the bidding process.

In the event no bids are received, the DOT doesn't select another carrier, or the new carrier doesn't start service in that period, DL will continue to receive payment for the service based on this:

A few years ago Mesa (Air Midwest) was ordered by DOT to continue EAS service to some cities mostly in Pennsylvania pending selection of a new carrier. Mesa cancelled the service anyway and DOT did nothing. I never understood that.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1888
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:59 pm

Quoting n7371f (Reply 7):
The SAAB's are all leased mostly through Lambert Leasing which is affiliated with SAAB.

I guess I should be more direct:

If Lakes can't make a $25,000 a month payment on a Beech 1900D, what makes anyone think they'd afford $25,000 to $35,000 a month for a Saab B+ model?
xx
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:00 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 9):

Sounds like they said to hell with them and took the risk of being brought to federal court. Looks like the government didnt bother. My question on this end is if DL will try to pull something similar with the much smaller markets that looks like no one wants to fly. At least not with the cost of gas at the moment, even with the subsidy.

They almost got into it with the DOT over MCN when the ASA A-Tech Center opened in Atlanta essentially making ATL-MCN useless. Skies stepped in and took over the route although ive heard most ppl just drive now due to their on-time and scheduling issues.
What gets measured gets done.
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2458
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:19 pm

Quoting USXguy (Reply 10):
If Lakes can't make a $25,000 a month payment on a Beech 1900D, what makes anyone think they'd afford $25,000 to $35,000 a month for a Saab B+ model?

They're seriously not paid off yet??? Haven't they had them for almost 20 years?
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3595
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:00 pm

Quoting Kinglobjaw (Reply 4):
TVF gets 2X daily

Quite frankly ppl should drive to GFK or BJI.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
cbphoto
Posts: 1258
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:23 am

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:21 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 5):
There are rumors afoot that ZK is trying to acquire the former XJ Saabs...

News to me, have not heard anything about that in the crew room! More Brasilia's from OO is the last rumor I heard, but now Saab 340s..Hmm...



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 12):
They're seriously not paid off yet??? Haven't they had them for almost 20 years?

ZK has been flying them around for pennies all these years, hence the 30+ Million balloon payment!

Quoting USXguy (Reply 10):
If Lakes can't make a $25,000 a month payment on a Beech 1900D, what makes anyone think they'd afford $25,000 to $35,000 a month for a Saab B+ model?

Can't agree more! No way are we getting Saabs, we can barely, and I mean barely maintain and operate the planes we have now, much less adding another complex turboprop to the fleet would be certain death to the company!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3721
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:57 pm

DTW is scheduled to close on November 5 with MSP and LGA closing December 23rd. No official word on what happens to all those cities. They'll run CRJs on them until they can get a replacement provider or until they can legally exit the market.
 
airtangora
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:50 am

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:36 am

So sad to see the SAAB 340 go away. I spent a ton of time on those gals into and out of CMI on NW! She'll be missed.

Happy Landins!
A bad day on the road is better than a good day in the office.
 
skyguyB727
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:45 pm

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:02 am

How times have changed! I remember when places like HIB, ESC, IMT, CMX, RHI, CWA, OSH, and EAU had DC-9 service from NC and later, RC.
 
acidradio
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: DL Upper Midwest/Saab Retirement Update?

Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:05 pm

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 17):
How times have changed! I remember when places like HIB, ESC, IMT, CMX, RHI, CWA, OSH, and EAU had DC-9 service from NC and later, RC.

It seems like everything was multi-stop service on big jets back in the day. Airlines weren't afraid to run up a bunch of cycles on a jet to make these services possible. Of course that's probably all they had to work with. The current direct services to every community are nice but are they all that feasible?

Perhaps we could explore returning to multi-stop "milk routes" to these smaller towns. But by today's standards that is probably not feasible. The fuel price is too high. The landing fees are higher. Some of these airports don't regularly support large aircraft anymore (ie. runway weight limits, availability of ARFF, etc). And most of the newer narrowbody aircraft don't seem to handle lots of high-cycle short flights too well.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos