WS Hawaii 2012 Plans?

BE77 · Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:22 pm

Hi
I am wondering if there is any news, or rumors, about this winter for WS from YYC and YEG to Hawaii.
I just booked a flight in Dec OGG to YYC, direct, and the website claims it will be a 738. So, unless they don't expect to fill it on a Sunday afternoon(!), are they going with the empty seat method again?
Does anyone know if they are going to lease the 757 again, or find another solution?
I see AC is using the 767 again (a 763 I think), so the cost / competitive pressure to fly direct will be there.

Thanks

connies4ever · Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:03 pm

Quoting be77 (Thread starter):
I see AC is using the 767 again (a 763 I think), so the cost / competitive pressure to fly direct will be there.

That's the only kind of 767 AC has. I think the ones used for Hawaii and selected Caribbean runs are the ones purchased from HA. These do not have a real JF cabin, just what is about a domestic J, sold I believe as "Comfort Class" - lots more room, same cabin service. The big advantage of the 767, other than hauling a lot more people than a 73G or 738, is that it can take all the bags all the way.

YXXMIKE · Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
That's the only kind of 767 AC has. I think the ones used for Hawaii and selected Caribbean runs are the ones purchased from HA. These do not have a real JF cabin, just what is about a domestic J, sold I believe as "Comfort Class" - lots more room, same cabin service. The big advantage of the 767, other than hauling a lot more people than a 73G or 738, is that it can take all the bags all the way.

I'm flying YVR - HNL in December on AC and I was wondering if it would be even worth using upgrade credits for the return flight (arrives YVR at 5am...). How many of these frames do AC have left and is their future one of "as long as we make money, they keep flying?"

As for WS, did anybody fly the 757 service last year? It was a WS flight but operated by ?? Was it WS flight attendants?

c172akula · Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:44 pm

I have heard that WS will be utilizing a 757 again for the YYC and YEG runs to Hawaii. They are leasing this one from Thomas Cook apparently.

c172akula · Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:46 pm

I've also noticed that every now and then AC has subbed in a XM'ed 763 on the Hawaii routes. I was lucky enough to get one on a OGG-YYC flight in January.

c172akula · Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:48 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 2):
As for WS, did anybody fly the 757 service last year? It was a WS flight but operated by ?? Was it WS flight attendants?

It was leased from North American Airlines, complete with crew, however WS did have one or two Westjet representatives onboard to ensure things kept a decidedly Westjet feel.

They did have some teething issues with the 757 going mechanical a few times, and the replacement bird taking a long time to come to the rescue. I'm guessing they have better plans in place for the service this time around.

YXXMIKE · Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:09 pm

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 4):
I've also noticed that every now and then AC has subbed in a XM'ed 763 on the Hawaii routes. I was lucky enough to get one on a OGG-YYC flight in January.

Certainly have my fingers crossed that I get an XM'ed bird, my mum had a similar experience last year so one can only hope!

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 5):
It was leased from North American Airlines, complete with crew, however WS did have one or two Westjet representatives onboard to ensure things kept a decidedly Westjet feel.

They did have some teething issues with the 757 going mechanical a few times, and the replacement bird taking a long time to come to the rescue. I'm guessing they have better plans in place for the service this time around.

Yeah I can imagine there would be some problems if a 757 goes tech in HNL/OGG, how quickly a delay becomes an extra 7/8hrs if a plane needs to be changed out.

c172akula · Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:13 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 6):
Yeah I can imagine there would be some problems if a 757 goes tech in HNL/OGG, how quickly a delay becomes an extra 7/8hrs if a plane needs to be changed out.

Actually a few of the tech issues happened in YYC, and the delays were leading to many people venting about losing a day of their vacation on social media sites like Twitter.

Personally I am all about using AC for my flights from YYC to OGG, traveling with a toddler I much prefer the extra space the wide-body affords for when your kid wants to move around a bit more. I have also found the FA's to be excellent on these flights, very friendly and accommodating to any needs we may have. In fact we are flying AC to OGG again in January 2012 from YYC.

connies4ever · Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 2):
I'm flying YVR - HNL in December on AC and I was wondering if it would be even worth using upgrade credits for the return flight (arrives YVR at 5am...). How many of these frames do AC have left and is their future one of "as long as we make money, they keep flying?"

I think there are 3 frames and they will be around for a while. Very useful in the low margin markets (Hawaii, Caribbean in winter; Dublin, Barcelona, Athens & Amsterdam in summer). I think they'll stay until a large number of 787s are in the fleet - 2014/15 maybe.

VonRichtofen · Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:26 am

7+ hours on a Wesjet 738 vs 763? AC is the clear winner here.

BE77 · Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:11 pm

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 3):
They are leasing this one from Thomas Cook apparently.

This 'apparently'

was good information - I just got an email from WS stating the flight was going to be on a Thomas Cook 757-200

briboy · Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:26 pm

I wonder if these Thomas Cook 57's will be flown by Jazz crews...

joerich · Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:02 am

It will be a Thomas Cook 757. Pilots will be from Thomas Cook and all flight attendants will be from WS. Unlike last year where the FA's were from North American and there was one WS "Ambassador" on each flight.

9252fly · Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:06 am

Quoting joerich (Reply 12):
Pilots will be from Thomas Cook and all flight attendants will be from WS.

Interesting combination of QK pilots and WS flight attendants.

RWA380 · Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:11 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
I think the ones used for Hawaii and selected Caribbean runs are the ones purchased from HA. These do not have a real JF cabin,

I was wondering, why HA is selling off 763's, even though they are taking A-330 deliveries, I thought the 767's were to retain the current schedules flown by them, with a few A-330's to boost capacity to existing larger stations, and the A-330's was to help with opening additional overseas locations, I do understand the 767 is not the A330, with a larger fuel burn than the A-330, but their 767's seem nice enough to keep a while longer, it's not like they do many rotations a day.

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 6):
Certainly have my fingers crossed that I get an XM'ed bird, my mum had a similar experience last year so one can only hope!

Good luck to you, I will send a prayer to the airline gods for you! LOL, hava a great journey to the islands. I'm jealous.

ha763 · Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:41 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
I was wondering, why HA is selling off 763's

AFAIK, only 2 767s left HA's fleet as their leases were expiring. Those two aircraft were also the only winglet capable 767s in the fleet that did not receive winglets.

RWA380 · Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:33 am

Oh, ok... Was hoping HA was not loosing any more widebodies, thus cutting the chances of more expansion soon.

yyz717 · Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:15 pm

The 752 lease begins mid-Nov and runs through end of April (vs. last year's Feb-Apr lease).

Thomas Cook G-WJAN RR engines.

Be nice if it was in full WS colours for the 6-month lease.

BE77 · Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:18 pm

Quoting briboy (Reply 11):
I wonder if these Thomas Cook 57's will be flown by Jazz crews...

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 13):
Interesting combination of QK pilots and WS flight attendants

I wonder if I will get Aeroplan Miles. Maybe half miles since the crew is split between QK and WS? Would they still count as status miles?

The irony or potential conflict for WS to charter from AC's main connector supplier seems to make for a weird situation - one might have thought there would be a scope / conflict to prevent this sort of thing. At some level of course 'mostl' Thonas Cook flights compete with AC, but I'd have thought there would be a difference between sun charters for a charter "Brand" vs charters for a major competitor like WS.

Maybe QK will start flying routes for PD as well?

YXXMIKE · Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:23 pm

Quoting BE77 (Reply 18):
I wonder if I will get Aeroplan Miles. Maybe half miles since the crew is split between QK and WS? Would they still count as status miles?

The irony or potential conflict for WS to charter from AC's main connector supplier seems to make for a weird situation - one might have thought there would be a scope / conflict to prevent this sort of thing. At some level of course 'mostl' Thonas Cook flights compete with AC, but I'd have thought there would be a difference between sun charters for a charter "Brand" vs charters for a major competitor like WS.

Maybe QK will start flying routes for PD as well?

Just like the village bicycle, everyone get's a ride!

From a business stand point QK must be happy with whomever is willing to pay their bills. So may as well go for it!

Viscount724 · Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:42 pm

Quoting BE77 (Reply 18):
The irony or potential conflict for WS to charter from AC's main connector supplier seems to make for a weird situation - one might have thought there would be a scope / conflict to prevent this sort of thing.

What do you mean by "connector supplier". The Thomas Cook 757s operated for Jazz last winter were for Jazz only and had nothing to do with AC to the best of my recollection.

tguman · Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:43 pm

Quoting briboy (Reply 11):
I wonder if these Thomas Cook 57's will be flown by Jazz crews...

QK is doing the Thomas Cook Canada branded flights. That does not necessarily mean that the Thomas Cook '57 leased by WS will be flown by Jazz crews.

9252fly · Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting tguman (Reply 21):
QK is doing the Thomas Cook Canada branded flights. That does not necessarily mean that the Thomas Cook '57 leased by WS will be flown by Jazz crews.

It's a reasonable conclusion to draw as QK will be operating and maintaining the aircraft out of YYC for the Thomas Cook seasonal winter program to Mexico. Who knows,perhaps all B757 will operate out the the D pier,be they for Thomas Cook or WS.

BE77 · Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:42 am

Quoting tguman (Reply 21):
QK is doing the Thomas Cook Canada branded flights. That does not necessarily mean that the Thomas Cook '57 leased by WS will be flown by Jazz crews

Wouldn't they need to be flown by QK since that's who would have all the permits, operating procedures, and all the rest of the stuff that goes along with operating a leased aircraft? WS certainly won't have any 752 pilots, maintenance, etc., etc.

ALso intersting withthe AC and Jazz branding, since AC seems to be going to the "AC Express" branding, and from the website it looks like QK is taking control of the Jazz name.
http://www.flyjazz.ca/en/home/default.aspx

brilondon · Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 6):
Certainly have my fingers crossed that I get an XM'ed bird, my mum had a similar experience last year so one can only hope!

Seriously doubt it.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 9):
7+ hours on a Wesjet 738 vs 763? AC is the clear winner here.

I flown on both and found that WS is far better than AC. With WS though, you don't get the better arrival times at HNL, but you get a better experience with WS.

saloman · Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 16):

My understanding was that these two 767s were part of Boeing's compensation package to AC for 787 delays, and thus HA wasn't given the choice of renewing the lease? Perhaps someone more knowledgable could confirm, but that was the story being floated around at the time (4-5 months ago).

BE77 · Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 24):
With WS though, you don't get the better arrival times at HNL,

The beauty of buying one way segments is that you can go direct YYC - OGG on AC at a reasonable time, then return OGG - YYC direct on WS at a reasonable time.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 9):
7+ hours on a Wesjet 738 vs 763? AC is the clear winner here.

For me on the longer hauls, I prefer the 'normal' AC seats in Y to the WS seats, but with the non-XM 763 it's about a wash for me (personal preference only...I know people who prefer the WS seats over the AC Y ones).
But, that comparison no longer applies now that it's a charter 752...hopefully there is a little legroom. Seat Guru still shows it as a WS 738, and doesn't have anything for QK or Thomas Cook. Anyone know what the seat pitch is?

Since neither flight is likely to have decent IFE, a book and a movie on the IPAD should make the on board experience about the same.

Whiteguy · Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:14 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 13):
Interesting combination of QK pilots and WS flight attendants.

It is not QK pilots operating these flights!

Quoting BE77 (Reply 23):
Wouldn't they need to be flown by QK since that's who would have all the permits, operating procedures, and all the rest of the stuff that goes along with operating a leased aircraft? WS certainly won't have any 752 pilots, maintenance, etc., etc.

Why? Its a wet lease, its got nothing to do with QK. QK pilots are operating TC aircraft on TC flights from Canada to Mexico and the Caribb. TC pilots are operating the TC aircraft wet leased to WS. All this info is on WS web site.

Quoting BE77 (Reply 18):
I wonder if I will get Aeroplan Miles. Maybe half miles since the crew is split between QK and WS? Would they still count as status miles?

Why would you get miles? None of this has anything to do with AC!

YXXMIKE · Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting saloman (Reply 25):
My understanding was that these two 767s were part of Boeing's compensation package to AC for 787 delays, and thus HA wasn't given the choice of renewing the lease? Perhaps someone more knowledgable could confirm, but that was the story being floated around at the time (4-5 months ago).

That would certainly be interesting, I'm not too familiar with HA's operations but if their plan was to switch to an A330 fleet maybe Boeing was feeling less obliged to keep them happy. Keep AC happy and help them with their future LCC hopes.

Quoting BE77 (Reply 26):
Since neither flight is likely to have decent IFE, a book and a movie on the IPAD should make the on board experience about the same.

My thoughts exactly, I have always found the seat twice as uncomfortable if I'm bored on a flight.

9252fly · Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:46 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 27):
Why? Its a wet lease, its got nothing to do with QK. QK pilots are operating TC aircraft on TC flights from Canada to Mexico and the Caribb. TC pilots are operating the TC aircraft wet leased to WS. All this info is on WS web site.

All the WS press release indicated was that they will have their own flight attendants. It's not far-fetched that Thomas Cook would send their own pilots over from Europe to operate the Hawaii flights,it's just that it's a reasonable conclusion to draw that the pilots will come from QK as they will be readily available locally. The line maintenance would in all likelihood also be done by QK as they will also have local AME's endorsed for the B757. I don't mind being told I'm wrong.

Whiteguy · Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:57 pm

"This year, WestJet flight attendants will be on board the Boeing 757-200 to ensure the same great WestJet guest experience. Thomas Cook U.K. will provide the aircraft and pilots."

The quote above was taken from the press release on Oct 6th.

I could be wrong to but I highly doubt it will be QK pilots!

N1120A · Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:06 pm

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 4):

I've also noticed that every now and then AC has subbed in a XM'ed 763 on the Hawaii routes.

AFAIK, the YVR run has been scheduled as an XM plane for a while now.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
I was wondering, why HA is selling off 763's, even though they are taking A-330 deliveries, I thought the 767's were to retain the current schedules flown by them

Aside from the bit about Boeing wanting to keep AC happy, remember that HA's 767 fleet is not exactly standardized. They have some older ex-LTU planes, as well as some 763As from Delta.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
I do understand the 767 is not the A330, with a larger fuel burn than the A-330, but their 767's seem nice enough to keep a while longer, it's not like they do many rotations a day.

Actually, the 763 has lower fuel burn and trip costs than the A332 or A333. What it loses on is capacity and CASM. On lower density routes, the 763 is the better plane.

Whiteguy · Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
AFAIK, the YVR run has been scheduled as an XM plane for a while now.

Both OGG and HNL are XM'd aircraft out of YVR during the summer because the non XM aircraft are used out of YYZ and YUL to Europe. They will be non XM'd in the winter just like the YYC flights.

LV · Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
I was wondering, why HA is selling off 763's, even though they are taking A-330 deliveries, I thought the 767's were to retain the current schedules flown by them, with a few A-330's to boost capacity to existing larger stations, and the A-330's was to help with opening additional overseas locations

From what I understand there was some bad blood between Boeing and HA which prompted the A330 order to begin with. The 767's were leased from Boeing so when the leases came up HA wanted to renew but Boeing demanded the planes back. I thought I heard that Boeing is basically giving the 767s to AC as a "thank you for putting up with the 787 delays" gesture.

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